Building a website for a friend

Raekwon

One of my mates needs a website built and because I work with computers he figured that I'd obviously be the person to talk too (I work in support ffs)

Anyway, he only needs a small, low maintenance site for fitness classes that he runs, this shouldn't be a problem but I'm a total novice when it comes to web design so any advice/help would be very much appreciated.

The plan is that he tells me exactly what he needs and I set it up for him. I've been looking around online and Register365's Site Maker seems to be one of the better options out there and it costs €5 per month with a free domain name (hosting would be extra I presume).

Could this be easier then trying my hand at HTML/Dreamweaver and just registering a domain and getting hosting separately?

cormee

I'm not being a smart-arse, but I think the best advice for you is to tell him you're not a web designer, and to find someone who is.

DonkeyStyle \o/

I'd send him to wordpress.com and wash my hands of it.
What you don't want is someone coming running to you every time they want to update/change something, and since you set up the site, it's your job to support them forever and give them free advice.
It seems like he's looking to get it done on the cheap, so you have to wonder how that's going to play out down the road.
Sounds like nothing but a pain in the arse, I wouldn't touch it with a barge-pole unless your mate is a life-long friend and not just someone you know who gets pally when he wants something.
Either way you have to think about the long term picture and the level of commitment you're getting involved in. If this person is never going to learn about maintaining their own website, then you're setting yourself up for lots of free work. The best approach is to stay hands-off and let them go through all the setup steps themselves - avoid at all costs the scenario of: "You set it up, I don't know how to do any of this stuff", because you will end up spending hours doing bullshit you don't want to do as part of this ongoing favour. Don't be flattered or pressured into it, if you're the kind of person who has a hard time saying "No" or asking to be paid for your work, then plead ignorance and walk away.

... or as cormee said, direct him to someone who actually does websites.

Trojan

If it's an area you want to get into, and you're really good friends with him, might be an option.

There's a lot of options out there, without touching code you can build a site in WordPress, Drupal or Joomla that's extendible and future-proof. The sitebuilder scripts most hosts provide are generally very, very limited.

Golden rule: either charge commercial rate and do a good job, or charge €0.00 - not a cent - so that you can't be held over a barrel if something does go wrong.

Raekwon

I was actually totally expecting to be told that and in all honestly I've a feeling that this website is going to be a total pain in the hole that I could obviously do without.

The thing is DonkeyStyle \o/ you're bang on the money. This is a guy that I've known my whole life and I'm the sort of person that can't say no plus he's quite pushy on top of being a fairly tight fisted so I'm kind of backed into a corner here unfortunately.

I could just tell him to buy the website building package that I linked too, set it up, show him how it works (ie: how to update it) and walk away from it? Are these packages as user friendly as they claim to be?

Trojan wrote:

Golden rule: either charge commercial rate and do a good job, or charge €0.00 - not a cent - so that you can't be held over a barrel if something does go wrong.

Excellent advice.

I've a feeling he is going to offer me a small amount of money but I'd prefer to do it as a favour and hopefully try and make him feel guilty chasing me down if things don't work out the way he wants.

I am warming to the WordPress suggestion but I was kind of hoping for a 'one shop stop' type solution ie: site builder/hosting/domain name in one package.

solarith

If you've got the time, Joomla is a really good content management system!

kakee

You could always just say "sorry mate, I have no clue about websites or how to build them."

Tell him a website needs to be coded and designed properly to work accross all different computers, phones, laptops etc and that it needs to be done by an expert or at least someone who knows what they are at.

Tell him to build a website is expensive and give him a price including the cost of hosting, domain and build work etc. Make sure the price is high around maybe a €1000 or so. If he says grand you can get someone else to do the site and pocket whats left over. If he says thats too much and I wont pay then thats good too because he wont ever mention his website to you again.

DonkeyStyle \o/

Raekwon wrote: »

The thing is DonkeyStyle \o/ you're bang on the money. This is a guy that I've known my whole life and I'm the sort of person that can't say no

I've been there, big time. I was exactly the same, I couldn't say no to people, embarrassed to talk about money. It eventually wore me out to the point where I realised some people will take advantage and keep taking advantage until you stop letting them. They'll abuse the "social contract" to get what they want, because that's just how they roll. It's about protecting yourself, even if it seems mean spirited.

He might not start taking the piss, but if he does, you'll have to put your foot down eventually. The transition from "can't say no" to "Nope, sod-off." is a very frustrating one. It sounds rude/unprofessional, but if you can't say no (and mean no), you have no power, and you're just somebody's bitch.

Raekwon wrote: »

he's quite pushy on top of being a fairly tight fisted so I'm kind of backed into a corner here unfortunately.

That should be a red flag right away. If you feel that way now, imagine how you'll feel when he's talked you into doing more work. You're his web guy now and he depends on you. It'll be much harder to walk away from.

Raekwon wrote: »

Are these packages as user friendly as they claim to be?

Ultimately it comes down to what kind of person he is. Some people put the effort in and are able to be self-sufficient. Even to the point where he'll match or surpass your web knowledge. Other people are lazy and helpless and won't learn a jot because they'll be able to nag you into doing it for them every time. Plus these things have a way of dragging on, maybe he wants a new feature (etc.).

This post is heavily skewed by my own personal experiences, and I don't know anything about your friend, but what you're describing gives me flashbacks. If you're doing it because you feel backed into a corner, that doesn't sound good. In fact, it sounds like a good reason not to do it.

Raekwon wrote: »

I am warming to the WordPress suggestion but I was kind of hoping for a 'one shop stop' type solution ie: site builder/hosting/domain name in one package.

You could possibly talk him down to a Facebook page, social media is the big thing now anyway. That's one possible "out".

Raekwon

I think we could have the same friend DonkeyStyle \o/

Seriously though, the more I read the replies on this thread the more I feel the need to avoid doing absolutely anything for him as I know exactly what he's like and he'll probably have my head wrecked over this site.

The social media idea is an excellent one by the way. I could try and talk him into just having a Facebook & Twitter page and leave it at that but he did mention the word 'professional' a few times in our conversation so I doubt he will back down that easily.

I'm sure that he has convinced himself that he really needs a website so if the worst comes to the worst I'll just set it up for him with a basic site design package and tell him that as soon as it's up and running I'm washing my hands of it. I'll be sure to mention that if he needs help/advice on it then he'll have 24/7 support with the hosting company as part of the package.

How does that sound?

Freddio

Raekwon wrote: »

I'll be sure to mention that if he needs help/advice on it then he'll have 24/7 support with the hosting company as part of the package.

How does that sound?

No Irish hosting company gives support out of office hours.

And during office hours they would be quite amused if someone rang them up and asked them to change the text on their home page.

Deliverance XXV

If it's for a good friend do it for them. If you are a creative person you will enjoy the learning curve. That's how I got started years ago. A friend asked a favour and I delivered (Imagemap website - shudder). But, I enjoyed it so I kept doing it (Not the imagemaps though).

If you are looking for a quick route out this is what you do:

• Rent hosting/domain name with his credit card
• Install Wordpress (Less than 5 mins)
• Install a free theme (Some gorgeous ones out there)
• Customise the theme
• Customise the website
• Add SEO plugins
• Tell him to update he site how the pleases as it's similar to MS Word
• Let him buy you a few pints in return

If he is serious down the line about getting business through his website then he should visit a professional but he should also expect to pay realistic money. If he is happy with having a basic web presence then the above route is fine.

Raekwon

I was talking to a guy in work who suggested Google Sites could be another option.

He said it was very straight forward and literally anyone could do it.

I checked it out and it sounds easier then WordPress but I was wondering is there were any major drawbacks with using Google Sites?

tricky D

Freddio wrote: »

No Irish hosting company gives support out of office hours.

So I thought too, but there is one as I found out a week or two ago when a clients ftp was refused. Pleasantly shocked at that.

Raekwon

Just a quick update.

After weeks of radio silence I suddenly got a call from my mate telling me that he purchased hosting and a domain name and wondered if I was still on for making him a site.

I grudgingly agreed but told him that I'd do it for free as a favour to him and he was to update it himself which he said was fine by him.

After doing a good bit of research I decided to go with a Wordpress as it seems relatively straight forward and can apparently look quite professional.

I was planning on starting it tonight but I've already hit my first hurdle. He purchased the Advanced Hosting package with Register365 but their control panel seems very limited. When I click into the domain I don't have the option to add a MySQL database and the Scripts & 1-Click Installs is also nowhere to be found. With out these I cannot do anything.

Does anyone have experience using this control panel and installing Wordpress with it? Why are these options not available? Argh my head is wrecked already!

Trojan

We can't do hosting support here, but they do claim to do 1-click installs of WordPress, so look for that, or contact support.

Raekwon

Sorry about that, I got onto their support and they sorted it. Apparently their was an (empty) freemail package preventing access so it was removed.

Anyway he hasn't even registered the .ie domain name with the IEDR yet and he didn't seem too keen when I told him to fax off his details and reasons for claiming the domain to them with a VAT number, if he has one.

Trojan

If he might have a VAT number, I'm assuming he's a business. So he's asking you to build a business website on mates rates.

I said it before but I'll say it again: do not accept a single penny for this unless he's willing to pay full commercial rates - otherwise you are screwed and he'll have you at beck and call and you won't even have the silver lining of getting paid for your time. This whole thing is a can of worms.

Raekwon

This is only a part time venture for him so he doesn't have a VAT number as he told me that it's not for profit.

Anyway he ended up buying a .com domain instead as it didn't have as much red tape as the .ie domain.

I hear you though, I'm not going to except any money from him, he asked me how much I wanted and I told him nothing, I was doing it as a favour.

I think I'll end up just washing my hands of it very soon anyway as I've been messing around with Wordpress all night and to be honest it isn't a handy as I thought it would be.

I've installed a theme and some plug-ins but simple things like widening the columns and changing font sides in the header seem overly complicated to near impossible.

It still looks very bloggy to me even though I've striped out all of the comment boxes, rss feeds, etc.

Are Joomla or Drupal any easier to use and customise?

Trojan

Raekwon wrote: »

I think I'll end up just washing my hands of it very soon anyway as I've been messing around with Wordpress all night and to be honest it isn't a handy as I thought it would be.

[..]

Are Joomla or Drupal any easier to use and customise?

To be honest, IMO WordPress is far easier for a non-techie to get to grips with.

Raekwon wrote: »

I've installed a theme and some plug-ins but simple things like widening the columns and changing font sides in the header seem overly complicated to near impossible.

It still looks very bloggy to me even though I've striped out all of the comment boxes, rss feeds, etc.

The look and feel of the site is entirely customisable and depends on the theme you choose to install and/or your design skills.

My recommendation is look for another theme. I'd start by going through the free themes on WordPress.org starting with the newest first (they're far better coded): http://wordpress.org/extend/themes/browse/new/

M.T.D

Hi,
I am an on-line marketeer and use Wordpress extensively. It is simple enough to use, like driving a car, once you know what you are doing. Expect to spend quite a few hours getting it "right". To wade through literally thousands of plugins installing, trying, deleting to find the one you want can take hours as well. Be careful of free themes many are buggy and contain malware. Get your friend to pick the one he likes, and then add the content.
Unless you want to "learn" wordpress, doing a one off site is a lot of learning for not a lot of gain. Although "installing" Wordpress may only take a few minutes, finding and installing plugins, creating basic pages (home, product/service, contact us, About, Blog) , setting up the menu, adding security etc. takes time even if you have practice. To install Wordpress, we don't recommend one click installs for security reasons, add plugins, and set the site up is circa €200 this does not include the theme or adding content.
We create sites that are worth having (not a plug) this takes time and knowledge. If you were building a personal site for yourself, and are not expecting a lot of return, you can enjoy the learning experience. If you are doing it for someone else expect grief.
And even once he is happy with the website , expect the next call in 3 weeks time when the site still does not appear in Google.
If he is doing fitness classes and wants his site to get him business he will find he has a lot of competing sites, many that are paying for excellent design and effective marketing.
Have fun

Raekwon

I agree that Wordpress is very easy to use but I find that every free template that I've tried is very limited and that leads to endless frustration. If he was willing to part with $50 then I'm sure that a premium template would be much easier to edit and customise.

I actually downloaded a 30 day trial of Adobe Dreamweaver CS6 earlier and I've been mucking around with it this evening. I've knocked together a basic home page and it looks fairly decent but there is far too much coding and tweaking to be done behind the scenes. I came to conclusion very quickly that this method most definitely will not be worth the hassle.

Btw, you don't mind me asking, what is current market rate for a run of the mill 5 page website?

Essien

Raekwon wrote: »

I agree that Wordpress is very easy to use but I find that every free template that I've tried is very limited and that leads to endless frustration. If he was willing to part with $50 then I'm sure that a premium template would be much easier to edit and customise.

I actually downloaded a 30 day trial of Adobe Dreamweaver CS6 earlier and I've been mucking around with it this evening. I've knocked together a basic home page and it looks fairly decent but there is far too much coding and tweaking to be done behind the scenes. I came to conclusion very quickly that this method most definitely will not be worth the hassle.

Btw, you don't mind me asking, what is current market rate for a run of the mill 5 page website?

Stick with the WordPress option mate. Tbh, if he's not willing to part with $50 for the sake of saving you heaps of hours of coding etc, it's not a website he wants, it's a slap.

Wordpress can do sooooo much with very little development knowledge. Then once you get the hang of it it really is a cracking tool. Compared with the rubbish I produced in DW a few years ago, when I see the kind of stuff I can do now with great plugins like http://www.advancedcustomfields.com/ or http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/custom-post-type-ui/ I can't believe I ever used anything else!

M.T.D

Hi
Did you get a web site sorted or leave the friend to his/her own devices

Raekwon

Hey, just a quick update.

I finished the website a few weeks ago and it's now live and looking fairly professional if I don't mind saying so myself, but everybody who warned me that this would be a pain in the arse was bang on the money.

Firstly we arranged on a 5 page layout but that has expanded into 8 pages over the last few weeks. It seems that he is really happy with it but it just needs one more tweak..........

Secondly he only gave me a two page Word document and 15 photos (5 of which are any good) for content, so I've had to pad it out myself with stuff about fitness from Wiki and stock photos from various sources etc

Lastly he now wants it on a .ie domain instead of a .com domain. He bought both domains but because of the hassle in registering the .ie domain I was told to use the .com domain instead...........but since the IEDR gave him the all clear for the .ie domain he wants to use that instead because his Facebook, Twitter & business cards all have the .ie address.

Trojan

Glad you got it sorted in the end. Commercial website development can be as much of a pain as doing it for mates, but you're (usually) being rewarded at a commensurate level which reduces the pain factor.

Also, counter-intuitively, when you're dealing with larger budgets it frequently becomes more of a collaborative effort and less about a provided commodity that the customer doesn't appreciate the value of.

gomez_gomes

Raekwon wrote: »

Hey, just a quick update.

I finished the website a few weeks ago and it's now live and looking fairly professional if I don't mind saying so myself, but everybody who warned me that this would be a pain in the arse was bang on the money.

Firstly we arranged on a 5 page layout but that has expanded into 8 pages over the last few weeks. It seems that he is really happy with it but it just needs one more tweak..........

Secondly he only gave me a two page Word document and 15 photos (5 of which are any good) for content, so I've had to pad it out myself with stuff about fitness from Wiki and stock photos from various sources etc

Lastly he now wants it on a .ie domain instead of a .com domain. He bought both domains but because of the hassle in registering the .ie domain I was told to use the .com domain instead...........but since the IEDR gave him the all clear for the .ie domain he wants to use that instead because his Facebook, Twitter & business cards all have the .ie address.

Hey great man....finally got things sorted and well to go...I agree you came here for some positive suggestion....so it helps you...also...some did I believe.... Though I dont know what profession or field you guys are in....but... If its a online shop....gotta be taken care off.... Or else it won't work wonders for you mate.... All the best.. hope things goes fine & works out...

Raekwon

Does anyone how the quickest way to run the same website on two different domains? (.com & .ie)

I've tried redirecting and meta refresh but it doesn't seem to be working.

Could a hosting company do this for me?

M.T.D

you can use a 301 redirect, you can generally do this from the control panel of your hosting account, your website's visitor gets redirected automatically to the domain you want to use

or where your domain names are registered and there is generally an option that the visitor gets redirected but the domain name does not change.
So if you were using the .com for the site you could still promote in Ireland as .ie and the visitor would see xxxxx.ie/ even though they were on the .com site. Do not know if this would be helpful to you or not though.

Raekwon

Apparently the only way I can forward a URL is to down grade the hosting package to 'email only'.

The thing is that I built the website on the .com domain and now my 'friend' wants the .ie domain to be the primary domain with the .com domain to be redirected to it (there is nothing on the .ie domain at the moment).

Is it possible to move the entire Wordpress site to the .ie domain? If I could move across to the .ie domain then I could simply downgrade the .com domain and redirect to it.

M.T.D

There are several ways to move a Wordpress site I have software that clones the site (does not work with all hostingsetups). Makes putting up a new site very quick. If you do not have the software it takes a bit more time and effort. If you are on the same server /hosting package with both domains you may be able to install wordpress on the .ie domain and change the config file so it uses the data base you already have for the .com domain then manually delete the .com site.
If you need assistance pm me

gomez_gomes

ya mate.. you can redirect the domain...i guess you won't be facing any problem OK..

jmcc

Raekwon wrote: »

Anyway he hasn't even registered the .ie domain name with the IEDR yet and he didn't seem too keen when I told him to fax off his details and reasons for claiming the domain to them with a VAT number, if he has one.

It would be cheaper and perhaps more efficient to register the .ie domain through a .ie registrar.

Regards...jmcc

jmcc

Raekwon wrote: »

Is it possible to move the entire Wordpress site to the .ie domain? If I could move across to the .ie domain then I could simply downgrade the .com domain and redirect to it.

It may be possible to set the base URL with Wordpress for the .ie. The only risk would be that the search engines see the .com and the .ie site with the same content. If it is going to take some time to sort out the 301 redirect then just have the .ie (as it will be the primary website) live. The URL for the site is set in the General > Settings screen so it may be possible to shift it to the .ie very simply. The only problem might be if you had used static URLs for images. Some Wordpress experts here may be able to confirm that this is possible.

Regards...jmcc

Essien

I don't know about setting both sites up in parallel but if you want to change all instances of the .com URL within Wordpress, I find the best way is to export the database and just do a find/replace in a text editor. There are plugins and things out there that will help you with exporting your site but I'm not sure how they handle changing static urls like stuff hard coded into the template (terrible practice, you would need to edit template files here as well as the db) or links within the content.

If you do need to set both up I'd guess your best bet would be to treat them as 2 unique sites, I can't imagine Wordpress handling it very well any other way

Trojan

Essien wrote: »

I don't know about setting both sites up in parallel but if you want to change all instances of the .com URL within Wordpress, I find the best way is to export the database and just do a find/replace in a text editor.

Don't do this, it won't change them all correctly because WordPress stores options as serialized PHP strings in the database. This means that if the domains are different lengths (and they will be if it's a straight swap .com for .ie) then the options strings will break.

It's a pain but you'll need to use a method that maintains the correct lengths for the serialized strings - this is a safe find/replace script.

You can also manually export, editing content and string lengths and re-import but you need to be very careful when editing.

Essien

Trojan wrote: »

Essien wrote: »

I don't know about setting both sites up in parallel but if you want to change all instances of the .com URL within Wordpress, I find the best way is to export the database and just do a find/replace in a text editor.

Don't do this, it won't change them all correctly because WordPress stores options as serialized PHP strings in the database. This means that if the domains are different lengths (and they will be if it's a straight swap .com for .ie) then the options strings will break.

It's a pain but you'll need to use a method that maintains the correct lengths for the serialized strings - this is a safe find/replace script.

You can also manually export, editing content and string lengths and re-import but you need to be very careful when editing.

Really? I've done it heaps of times and only ever ran into that once, and even that time the issue only affected a plugin.

Trojan

If the domains happened to be the same length coincidentally, then it won't break anything as the serialized data count will be correct. If not, then you could lose widgets and other settings - some of it quite subtle and difficult to diagnose

Raekwon

Cheers for all the advice

I've decided to just create the exact same site on the .ie domain as I know all the plug-ins that I need etc so it shouldn't be too much effort to set everything up the same.

It's not ideal but it seems the less stressful way.