Is Feminism Fair?

Dolbert

Inspired by the donedeal thread and this blog post:

http://thefeminerds.wordpress.com/2012/07/04/is-feminism-fair/

I've often heard it said that feminists are only out for themselves, couldn't care less about equality and don't want to know about men's rights. Would this be a popular perception, and if so how did you arrive at this conclusion? I'm genuinely curious about how men in Ireland feel about it today

From the blog:

Which of these sums up your position on Women's events/days/festivals/articles:

• It doesn’t really bother me but complaining about it is fun and I enjoy watching feminazis get all riled up when I pretend to be offended lol
• Women are ghey and belong in the kitchen
• There is no need for feminism anymore as women have all the equality they need these days
• It’s unfair and hypocritical and I feel discriminated against
• I resent “selective feminism” and therefore hate all of these kinds of events and movements

Dravokivich

It's not the Feminists that are the problem, it's the extremists that associate themselves as Feminists. Same can be said for anything that gathers a following or movement as such.

ShiftStorm

Dravokivich wrote: »

It's not the Feminists that are the problem, it's the extremists that associate themselves as Feminists. Same can be said for anything that gathers a following or movement as such.

That's what I would think too. But in my experience in gender debates, feminists are often all tarred with the same extremist, bra-burning and man-hating brush for some reason.

Bad Panda

I don't care if men are made fun of in ads.

I don't care if women are made fun of in ads.

I care that there are double standards in these cases. Quite simple - OK to laugh at men, not OK to laugh at women.

I could go into more detail, but it's been talked about a lot in various threads and is quite evident in Irish society.

ShiftStorm

Bad Panda wrote: »

I don't care if men are made fun of in ads.

I don't care if women are made fun of in ads.

I care that there are double standards in these cases. Quite simple - OK to laugh at men, not OK to laugh at women.

I could go into more detail, but it's been talked about a lot in various threads and is quite evident in Irish society.

Who said it was OK to laugh at men? I don't know any feminists who would agree with that!

frozenfrozen

nothing is fair

Kenno90

Women on play the sexist card when it suits them...

ShiftStorm

Kenno90 wrote: »

Women on play the sexist card when it suits them...

Do you think all women are selective when it comes to equality?

Kenno90

byrned17 wrote: »

Do you think all women are selective when it comes to equality?

Definitely not, but you can't deny there are plenty of women that do it

ShiftStorm

Kenno90 wrote: »

Definitely not, but you can't deny there are plenty of women that do it

Agreed. But wouldn't it be a pity to dismiss an entire movement because of those women when inequality still genuinely exists?

Bad Panda

byrned17 wrote: »

Who said it was OK to laugh at men? I don't know any feminists who would agree with that!

Seriously, if you can't grasp the point I'm making....

Kenno90

byrned17 wrote: »

Agreed. But wouldn't it be a pity to dismiss an entire movement because of those women when inequality still genuinely exists?

Where in this country ?

ShiftStorm

Bad Panda wrote: »

Seriously, if you can't grasp the point I'm making....

No need for the condescending tone! Your point was that you dislike double standards. Me too. So why don't you go out and protest about those ads that you find offensive? That is your right. But it isn't a feminist's job to complain on your behalf, is it?

ShiftStorm

Kenno90 wrote: »

Where in this country ?

Look at statistics in Ireland on domestic abuse, human trafficking, sexual crime rates, women in leadership positions in business and politics...Thankfully, things are so much better than they were in Ireland compared to other countries but there is still room for improvement.

Maguined

byrned17 wrote: »

No need for the condescending tone! Your point was that you dislike double standards. Me too. So why don't you go out and protest about those ads that you find offensive? That is your right. But it isn't a feminist's job to complain on your behalf, is it?

But if a feminist is striving for equality why wouldn't they complain against a double standard?

Dolbert

Maguined wrote: »

But if a feminist is striving for equality why wouldn't they complain against a double standard?

Catherine Redfern said it better than I can:

Part of being a feminist is accepting that people should not assume they can speak on behalf of other people. For example, a white feminist should not assume she can speak on behalf of black feminists' experiences, a heterosexual woman shouldn't assume she can speak on behalf of lesbians, and so on. With this in mind, why should I, as a woman, be expected to think, speak, and act, on behalf of men? Wouldn't that be rather arrogant of me? Yet this is exactly what these men are demanding female feminists do. Well frankly, if it's that important to these men, then they should take action themselves instead of wasting their time attacking those of us who are bothering to take action on gender issues.

byrned17

byrned17 wrote: »

Look at statistics in Ireland on domestic abuse, human trafficking, sexual crime rates, women in leadership positions in business and politics...Thankfully, things are so much better than they were in Ireland compared to other countries but there is still room for improvement.

Outcomes aren't evidence for discrimination.

Maguined

Dolorous wrote: »

Catherine Redfern said it better than I can:

I am sorry but that is a cop out, by that logic a white person cannot support a case of discrimination against black people? If an add was stereotyping blonde women as dumb are only blonde women allowed complain because a brunette cannot speak on her behalf?

Dolbert

Maguined wrote: »

I am sorry but that is a cop out, by that logic a white person cannot support a case of discrimination against black people? If an add was stereotyping blonde women as dumb are only blonde women allowed complain because a brunette cannot speak on her behalf?

That is not what she's saying at all, rather that men should be the ones to lead the fight for men's rights and not blame 'the feminists' for not doing enough about it. Surely that's reasonable?

Dolorous

Dolorous wrote: »

That is not what she's saying at all, rather that men should be the ones to lead the fight for men's rights and not blame 'the feminists' for not doing enough about it. Surely that's reasonable?

As long as "the feminists" admit it's their own rights and not equality they're after then that's fine with me.

ShiftStorm

Deleted User wrote: »

Outcomes aren't evidence for discrimination.

Would that statement apply to every statistics group I mentioned?

titan18

Dolorous wrote: »

That is not what she's saying at all, rather that men should be the ones to lead the fight for men's rights and not blame 'the feminists' for not doing enough about it. Surely that's reasonable?

The problem with mens right have a direct effect on the problems with female rights though.

If women wanted to be treated equally in the workplace and in leadership positions, then the attitude and rights associated with men caring for the children e.g paternity leave, has to be changed.

Otherwise, no one will choose a woman over a man for a position if both their skillsets and experience are the same.

IvySlayer

If they wanted equality they wouldn't be called feminist.

byrned17

byrned17 wrote: »

Would that statement apply to every statistics group I mentioned?

The most of them. I struggle to see how rates of sexual crimes and trafficking are evidence of discrimination as such unless you're criticising the small number of men who carry out such actions for being heterosexual.

Maguined

Dolorous wrote: »

That is not what she's saying at all, rather that men should be the ones to lead the fight for men's rights and not blame 'the feminists' for not doing enough about it. Surely that's reasonable?

That is exactly what she is saying, she is saying you cannot speak out on behalf of an issue that does not directly affect you.

As a feminist she will not directly get involved in any issue that does not affect her regardless of whether she believes in that issue, it is extremely selfish in my opinion. If Ireland had a referendum on gay marriage should all the straight people not vote because it's up to the homosexual community to lead their own fight? of course not.

ShiftStorm

The original post was asking about Irish men's perceptions of feminism. Would it be fair to summarise the perceptions so far as:

1. Feminists are not activists on behalf of men's rights and are therefore hypocritical in their claims of seeking equality
2. Selective feminism (ie. picking and choosing the positives rather than the negatives) has discredited feminism
3. Feminists appear to have double standards
4. Gender inequality doesn't exist in Ireland anymore so feminism is not needed
5. Feminists are selfish

Would that be a fair summary? If not, please advise!

Dolbert

Maguined wrote: »

That is exactly what she is saying, she is saying you cannot speak out on behalf of an issue that does not directly affect you.

As a feminist she will not directly get involved in any issue that does not affect her regardless of whether she believes in that issue, it is extremely selfish in my opinion. If Ireland had a referendum on gay marriage should all the straight people not vote because it's up to the homosexual community to lead their own fight? of course not.

But men are obviously in a better position to speak out about their own rights, would you not agree? She is not saying women shouldn't support men, she is saying that they cannot possibly claim to represent them.

byrned17

byrned17 wrote: »

The original post was asking about Irish men's perceptions of feminism. Would it be fair to summarise the perceptions so far as:

1. Feminists are not activists on behalf of men's rights and are therefore hypocritical in their claims of seeking equality
2. Selective feminism (ie. picking and choosing the positives rather than the negatives) has discredited feminism
3. Feminists appear to have double standards
4. Gender inequality doesn't exist in Ireland anymore so feminism is not needed
5. Feminists are selfish

Would that be a fair summary? If not, please advise!

My perception is that at higher levels Feminism is little but a personal drum for certain people to beat knowing that they'll have plenty of people "follow" and they'll be pretty much beyond reproach as any criticism "confirms" their argument. Much like anything in politics and the like.

ShiftStorm

Deleted User wrote: »

My perception is that at higher levels Feminism is little but a personal drum for certain people to beat knowing that they'll have plenty of people "follow" and they'll be pretty much beyond reproach as any criticism "confirms" their argument. Much like anything in politics and the like.

So feminists are power-hungry?

Maguined

Dolorous wrote: »

But men are obviously in a better position to speak out about their own rights, would you not agree? She is not saying women shouldn't support men, she is saying that they cannot possibly claim to represent them.

She cannot claim to represent all women. Feminism does not represent ALL women, they only represent those women that agree with their ideals. Plenty of women will have different ideals, no one organisation can represent everyone so her argument is completely flawed.

byrned17

byrned17 wrote: »

So feminists are power-hungry?

As with any large group of people there'll be someone who likes to be in charge of something, anything. The majority are happy to feel like a part of something.

newport2

Dolorous wrote: »

But men are obviously in a better position to speak out about their own rights, would you not agree? She is not saying women shouldn't support men, she is saying that they cannot possibly claim to represent them.

How are men in a better position to speak out about their rights? Generally when any man does this it is viewed as whinging.

Part of the problem is men do not see themselves as a "group". ie if a man gets treated unfairly or discriminated against, other men do not take offence to it or leap to his defence, unless perhaps he's a friend or relative. Not women's fault I know, but that's generally the way it is.

Another issue is that women have govenment funded groups supporting their rights. Men don't. If a man wants to protest about men's rights, he's on his own. Very difficult to start anything from this point.

ShiftStorm

newport2 wrote: »

How are men in a better position to speak out about their rights? Generally when any man does this it is viewed as whinging.

Part of the problem is men do not see themselves as a "group". ie if a man gets treated unfairly or discriminated against, other men do not take offence to it or leap to his defence, unless perhaps he's a friend or relative. Not women's fault I know, but that's generally the way it is.

Another issue is that women have govenment funded groups supporting their rights. Men don't. If a man wants to protest about men's rights, he's on his own. Very difficult to start anything from this point.

Good points. Women who speak out are also seen as whingers! (See above)

In which areas would you like to see men's rights increase? I for one would definitely be all for greater paternal rights like in Scandinavia.

byrned17

byrned17 wrote: »

I for one would definitely be all for greater paternal rights like in Scandinavia.

How dare you speak for me.

ShiftStorm

Lol.

ShiftStorm

Seriously though, where would Irish men like to see improvements?

Dolbert

byrned17 wrote: »

Seriously though, where would Irish men like to see improvements?

Further to this, do you think it would be beneficial for feminists to speak out on issues specifically affecting men?

Reku

Part of being a feminist is accepting that people should not assume they can speak on behalf of other people. For example, a white feminist should not assume she can speak on behalf of black feminists' experiences, a heterosexual woman shouldn't assume she can speak on behalf of lesbians, and so on. With this in mind, why should I, as a woman, be expected to think, speak, and act, on behalf of men? Wouldn't that be rather arrogant of me? Yet this is exactly what these men are demanding female feminists do. Well frankly, if it's that important to these men, then they should take action themselves instead of wasting their time attacking those of us who are bothering to take action on gender issues.

So in short only prostitutes can speak about prostitution....
Only rape victims can speak about rape... (FYI women can be rapists)
Only victims of domestic abuse... (FYI women can be the abusers)
etc...
etc...

Gee... most "feminist" issues could be swept aside by her reasoning for not being interested in pursuing issues where men are the ones being discriminated against, so is this just yet another case of a feminist seeing things one way when it suits and another when it doesn't?

The Irish people finally realize they don't really need a body that only represents the interests of select groups and not the populace as a whole (a.k.a. the Séanad) yet still many feel the need to embrace other such organizations...:(
Seriously, the sooner humanity just up and dies and lets another species have a crack at making less of a hash of society the better... *facepalm*:(

byrned17

byrned17 wrote: »

Seriously though, where would Irish men like to see improvements?

There's very little for either gender that I think needs addressing because a lot of headline statistics etc. stand up very poorly to any kind of analysis.

On the equal pay thing the gap is much smaller once hours worked is taken into account and when one considers men are more likely to work full time than parttime and more likely to work overtime the difference is practically non-existent. Between the last two censuses hundreds of thousands of men lost jobs while the number of women in employment increased. If Mens' Rights were a viable political cause that in itself would be a strong platform to run on, I can guarantee if the numbers were reversed it would be used as "evidence" of discrimination. The whole pay thing irks me massively in case it wasn't clear. :pac:

A case where the outcomes are worse for men is life expectancy but again I don't discrimination as a general problem. Mental health is one that I struggle to put together an argument I'm fully comfortable with because useful, proper statistics are hard to come across. There's the headline that men are far more likely to commit suicide but that isn't evidence as much as people may argue it is. From experience and observation the facilities and services available to all are depressingly below what should be available but men seem to be pretty much ignored. Again stats will be hard to come by.

The changes off the top of my head I'd support would be:
-Family law, enough said. I'm not going to say it's all biased in favour of women but whoever gets custody, which is women 99% of the time. I've seen cases where a parent gets custody, half of everything and also maintenance but when they then enter the workforce they still get everything from the original agreement despite everything changing. The issue of custody is disgraceful and goes without saying.
-Social welfare is one which it's hard to get statistics for because so much of what I disagree with is under the HSE umbrella. Whether it's breaking up not long after having a kid and not being entitled to rent allowance (because it'll be the guy who leaves), breaking up a good bit into a relationship, whatever, it favours mothers whether the kids are a few months old or in their teens.
-Criminal law. My point earlier about Feminism as politics (and just about any political cause) can be seen with Ivana Bacik as a perfect example. She campaigns for better conditions for women convicts despite them having far better conditions than male convicts. The "stand up for your own rights" argument holds no water for me in this case either. She beats the drum of Feminism and has a total victim complex whenever things don't work out for her. In the last general election she was the party leaders' running mate and didn't get elected and in private complained that she felt the party didn't get behind her enough, she didn't think for a second the problem might be with her. The laughable sentences given to women and especially women with kids disgusts me.
-Political quotas are something that again I think are a massive red herring. Women candidates had the same success rate as men candidates in the last election so the electorate has no problem voting for women. Some will argue that somehow the structure or practices within political parties prevent women for running but the fact that they make up a lower proportion of independent candidates again suggests that overall there's just less interest from women in running for political office.

Meh, I'm happy to answer any questions. :pac:

Dolorous wrote: »

Further to this, do you think it would be beneficial for feminists to speak out on issues specifically affecting men?

It would be beneficial for people to speak out about anything involving actual discrimination.

titan18

Dolorous wrote: »

Further to this, do you think it would be beneficial for feminists to speak out on issues specifically affecting men?

Yes. They'll never be treated the same in some areas without men being treated the same in other areas.

entropi

The problem with feminism, is that it exists. Same thing can be said about chauvinism.

Men's rights as a parent will need to be brought to an acceptable level, whereby they are seen at an equal level to a woman, before employment rights will even out between the sexes. Male parental rights in Ireland are far far behind where they need to be, but I think that employment rights (like a more equal payscale) for women have made much more improvement over the years.

py2006

Dolorous wrote: »

Further to this, do you think it would be beneficial for feminists to speak out on issues specifically affecting men?

I think were the confusion lies is that there is a lot of double standards surrounding this whole area. Men are constantly bombarded with how awful we are to women and how badly women are treated in various parts of life.

Yet, men are subjected to a lot of the same yet these people who want gender equality see nothing wrong with that.

I think the movement should change its name. 'Feminism' has a lot of negative connotations. We tend to associate it with the extreme idiots who want to get one up on evil men. It should be called Gender Equality -ism or whatever.

The Black Oil

I don't really have a strong opinion on it, but I don't know much about it. The term is a bit too vague for me to have any half decent understanding of what is involved - aside from the obvious, of course. It's like someone saying they're a psychologist without elaborating. Psychology has a several specialities, so by extension I'd prefer it if people said 'I'm a feminist with an interest in _______' which doesn't seem to happen. Or maybe I'm just not paying enough attention. I'd imagine that the public face of feminism, in some cases, tends to turn people off so they tar it with one brush.

We had a smattering of Simone de Beauvoir in college, apart from that, I don't know much about it, really.

yawha

Maguined wrote: »

That is exactly what she is saying, she is saying you cannot speak out on behalf of an issue that does not directly affect you.

As a feminist she will not directly get involved in any issue that does not affect her regardless of whether she believes in that issue, it is extremely selfish in my opinion. If Ireland had a referendum on gay marriage should all the straight people not vote because it's up to the homosexual community to lead their own fight? of course not.

You're misinterpreting what she's saying.

In any equality or social justice movement, there is a concept of allies. An ally is not a member of the particular group which are being treated unequally, but support the cause. Allies should not be leading such a movement and should always be sensitive to the fact that they can never place themselves in the shoes of the group they support, and should be very careful about speaking on behalf of them. Allies are fantastic and absolutely necessary in the support they give, but they should refrain from speaking on behalf of or theorizing about how or why the members of the group they support feel like they do.

I agree with this personally. Why should female feminists lead a movement for equality for men in traditionally female dominated areas? Why can't a men's group lead a movement like this without deriding or blaming feminism in the process? I firmly believe that many feminists would become allies of such a cause.

py2006 wrote: »

I think were the confusion lies is that there is a lot of double standards surrounding this whole area. Men are constantly bombarded with how awful we are to women and how badly women are treated in various parts of life.

We are?

Eric Cartman

byrned17 wrote: »

The original post was asking about Irish men's perceptions of feminism. Would it be fair to summarise the perceptions so far as:

1. Feminists are not activists on behalf of men's rights and are therefore hypocritical in their claims of seeking equality
2. Selective feminism (ie. picking and choosing the positives rather than the negatives) has discredited feminism
3. Feminists appear to have double standards
4. Gender inequality doesn't exist in Ireland anymore so feminism is not needed
5. Feminists are selfish

Would that be a fair summary? If not, please advise!

+1 definitely accurate.

even using the word feminist is a sexist word by itself. My biggest issue is any feminists ive ever encountered seem to think that its mens work oppressing women keeping them out of politics and science, the types that want quotas and special positions for women yet still want it called 'equality'

Maguined

yawha wrote: »

You're misinterpreting what she's saying.

In any equality or social justice movement, there is a concept of allies. An ally is not a member of the particular group which are being treated unequally, but support the cause. Allies should not be leading such a movement and should always be sensitive to the fact that they can never place themselves in the shoes of the group they support, and should be very careful about speaking on behalf of them. Allies are fantastic and absolutely necessary in the support they give, but they should refrain from speaking on behalf of or theorizing about how or why the members of the group they support feel like they do.

I agree with this personally. Why should female feminists lead a movement for equality for men in traditionally female dominated areas? Why can't a men's group lead a movement like this without deriding or blaming feminism in the process? I firmly believe that many feminists would become allies of such a cause.


We are?

Feminism claims to strive for equality, you are not striving for equality if you only take and never give. A Feminist organisation does not "represent" all women and yet they still campaign to make changes so they are perfectly capable of campaigning for a "mens rights" issue without having to claim to represent all men. Mens and womens rights are inherently linked. Feminist organisations would be well within their remit to demand the laws be changed so that men and women are treated equal under family law, however they do not as it is not perceived as an advantage.

Feminist organisations are not actually striving for equality, they are striving for advantage. There is nothing wrong with that, it is basically a trade union for a gender but I find their claims of equality to be dishonest by their actions.

yawha

Maguined wrote: »

Feminism claims to strive for equality, you are not striving for equality if you only take and never give. A Feminist organisation does not "represent" all women and yet they still campaign to make changes so they are perfectly capable of campaigning for a "mens rights" issue without having to claim to represent all men. Mens and womens rights are inherently linked. Feminist organisations would be well within their remit to demand the laws be changed so that men and women are treated equal under family law, however they do not as it is not perceived as an advantage.

Feminist organisations are not actually striving for equality, they are striving for advantage. There is nothing wrong with that, it is basically a trade union for a gender but I find their claims of equality to be dishonest by their actions.

I'm not sure you actually answered my post. I said nothing about feminism representing all women.

Anyway, for a start, feminism isn't a single entity, it's a very broad collection of movements dealing with inequality to women in various forms. I'm confused as to why you think they all claim to be striving for absolute equality between the sexes as opposed to striving for equality for women in areas where they have traditionally been treated unequally or not given equal opportunity for a variety of social and legal reasons. I interpret them as striving for the latter.

I completely agree that men's and women's rights are inherently linked, but they both need men and women respectively fighting for these rights while also supporting the other. There has not been any strong movement for rights and social justice for men, and the issue with a lot of the smaller ones and online communities is that they focus far too much on the derision and blaming of feminism, and their legitimate claims are tarnished as a result, and they lose the support of those identifying with feminism.

The question that really needs to be asked is why there does not exist a men's rights movement like this. Men need to have the freedom to wear anything they want without ridicule, to be able to express themselves sexually without ridicule, to be taken seriously when they are raped, to not be seen as inherently violent, to not be assumed as sexual predators, to have taking on the role as a default caregiver/homemaker not seen as odd or abnormal, to not have any form of entertainment or activity they choose to enjoy seen as odd or "unmanly", etc. etc.

And until all these are achieved and more, women will not see fully equality either, as if it is not accepted by society that men fit into roles previously only assumed to be "feminine", then society will still see women in roles previously assumed to be "masculine" as odd, and with this comes discrimination and laws and court judgements made based on these ridiculous prejudices and assumptions about gender.

Finally, any person calling themselves a feminist who makes silly claims should be called out for it. But just because the likes of Bakic makes stupid statements about women's prisions etc., doesn't mean this is a view held of all feminists, and that feminism as a whole is negative or that it should be a target for blame by men's rights groups.

donfers

yawha wrote: »

Why should female feminists lead a movement for equality for men in traditionally female dominated areas? Why can't a men's group lead a movement like this without deriding or blaming feminism in the process? I firmly believe that many feminists would become allies of such a cause.

This is precisely the problem with feminism

polarising the whole issue of gender politics

it is tremendously damaging and self-destructive

you say "Why should female feminists lead a movement for equality for men in traditionally female dominated areas? " - a kind of thought-process similar to that employed by a man who might say "Why should men vote for a woman president in a traditionally male role"

gender issues affect both sexes

you can't agitate for change in one issue affecting one gender without affecting the other

this is not an "us and them" thing - unfortunately the very name "feminism" creates that polarised image

it's not a case of you fight for your rights and we'll fight for ours, and throwing in terms like "allies" ain't fooling anybody

feminism is built on an inherent self-contradicting paradox if it seeks to masquerade under the equality banner

note please that i am not here debating the relative rights and wrongs of the individual issues within feminism, many of which I support

what I am simply saying is that the kind of reductive mindset that suggests we should first and foremost only seek to support causes that affect people who are most similar to us is incredibly narrow-sighted, selfish and lacking in moral credibility

rather we should first and foremost seek to support causes that NEED OUR SUPPORT regardless of the fact the victim may be a man or woman or black or white or yellow or whatever it may be

any political philosophy that is built on a kind of prejudicial or segregating ideology lacks credibility in my view

it's very simple really, it's not about men and women, it's about right and wrong

Eric Cartman

yawha wrote: »

The question that really needs to be asked is why there does not exist a men's rights movement like this. Men need to have the freedom to wear anything they want without ridicule, to be able to express themselves sexually without ridicule, to be taken seriously when they are raped, to not be seen as inherently violent, to not be assumed as sexual predators, to have taking on the role as a default caregiver/homemaker not seen as odd or abnormal, to not have any form of entertainment or activity they choose to enjoy seen as odd or "unmanly", etc. etc.

indeed. Well maybee femenists should work on perhaps rooting out the sect of feminism that is committing those offences first.

examples being the 2in2u website http://www.2in2u.ie/ , assuming that only a boyfriend can be abusive.

the great slogan / group 'men can stop rape' http://www.mencanstoprape.org/ assuming rape is a male only offence.

and many other sexist websites / slogans all branded under the feminist umbrella and re-enforced by feminist groups.

even the way stories about paedophiles are portrayed in the media, man has sex with a 15 year old girl "it was rape, rape, hes a paedophile"
woman has sex with a 15 year old boy "she seduced him"

christmas2012

is mens righs fair men have all the rights..

Eric Cartman

christmas2012 wrote: »

is mens righs fair men have all the rights..

find me a divorced father whod agree with you