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The Open 2012 *No Betting Discussion*

  • 04-07-2012 9:06am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,759 ✭✭✭


    Not long now folks to the best major of the year (IMO of course).

    I think Tiger at 5/1 is a fantastic price, so I've backed himself

    Adam Scott at 40/1
    Franceso Molinari at 66/1
    Frederick Jacobson at 80/1

    My prediction, the way Tiger is driving and how his short game has come along, he's going to win by 7 to 10 strokes.


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 753 ✭✭✭denishurley


    Tiger by 7-10? You really think he could smash his own record for the biggest winning margin in The Open?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,759 ✭✭✭Dr.Silly


    Tiger by 7-10? You really think he could smash his own record for the biggest winning margin in The Open?

    I wouldn't have written it if I didn't believe it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Martin567


    Dr.Silly wrote: »
    Not long now folks to the best major of the year (IMO of course).

    I think Tiger at 5/1 is a fantastic price, so I've backed himself

    Adam Scott at 40/1
    Franceso Molinari at 66/1
    Frederick Jacobson at 80/1

    My prediction, the way Tiger is driving and how his short game has come along, he's going to win by 7 to 10 strokes.

    Tiger may win but at 5/1 he is a truly awful price. Somwhere around 20/1 would be far more realistic. Lytham has over 200 bunkers so it will be a case of plotting your way around the course. Tiger wasn't a factor there in 2001 despite perfect weather. After the way he collapsed over the weekend in the US Open, he still has a long way to go to prove that he is still able to produce his best when the pressure comes on in a Major.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,733 ✭✭✭SnowDrifts


    Tiger is 6-1 on PaddyPower which is still too short IMO and also, they are already playing 7 places.

    I am going to put an each way on Ernie @ 40-1.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,759 ✭✭✭Dr.Silly


    Martin567 wrote: »
    Tiger may win but at 5/1 he is a truly awful price. Somwhere around 20/1 would be far more realistic. Lytham has over 200 bunkers so it will be a case of plotting your way around the course. Tiger wasn't a factor there in 2001 despite perfect weather. After the way he collapsed over the weekend in the US Open, he still has a long way to go to prove that he is still able to produce his best when the pressure comes on in a Major.


    For someone that's at a 27% win rate, and getting better week in week out ? An awful price .. I think it's great


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,381 ✭✭✭nbar12


    Dr.Silly wrote: »
    Not long now folks to the best major of the year (IMO of course).

    I think Tiger at 5/1 is a fantastic price, so I've backed himself

    Adam Scott at 40/1
    Franceso Molinari at 66/1
    Frederick Jacobson at 80/1

    My prediction, the way Tiger is driving and how his short game has come along, he's going to win by 7 to 10 strokes.

    You know what I have to agree with your name...Dr.Silly because this is an outrageous prediction! He's definitely worth a bet but lets be realistic, Tiger isn't the same golfer he once was! I would have backed him to win it by 7-10 in his prime but not now!

    The way Harrington has been playing, he is definitely worth an e/w bet!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Martin567


    Dr.Silly wrote: »
    For someone that's at a 27% win rate, and getting better week in week out ? An awful price .. I think it's great

    We're talking Majors here. He won't be battling Van Pelt, Sabbatini or Levin coming down the stretch at Lytham if he gets himself into contention. He has won none of the last 12 Majors he's played in, that's 0%. 5/1 is a terrible price.

    I seem to recall you being just as confident before the US Open. Did you put your money where your mouth was? Of course Tiger could win at Lytham but my hunch is that he won't be a factor at all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,759 ✭✭✭Dr.Silly


    nbar12 wrote: »
    You know what I have to agree with your name...Dr.Silly because this is an outrageous prediction! He's definitely worth a bet but lets be realistic, Tiger isn't the same golfer he once was! I would have backed him to win it by 7-10 in his prime but not now!

    The way Harrington has been playing, he is definitely worth an e/w bet!

    Guess I'm silly so.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,564 ✭✭✭kiers47


    Its creeping up on us all right. Also probably my favorite major followed closely by the masters.

    I agree with you that Tiger is the most likely winner whether i would want to back him at 6/1 is an entirely different question though. Saying that i wouldnt be a layer at that price either. To be honest i would prefer to back him on after friday or saturday at 3/1 if he was trailing by 2or3 shots and if he was leading i would let him win at whatever stupid odds he would be at that stage. Good luck with your bet though.
    Adam Scott im not entirely convinced he is a good links golf player but you could hardly go wrong at 40/1. Francesco at 66/1 is value and im not sure Jacobson has the bottle for a major. Just my opinions though i would love your opinions on my selections.

    My own bets (slate away :D) havent any done yet but these are my most likely bets.

    Darren Clarke 199/1 yes i know form at the moment is rubbish and it still looks like he is hungover from last years success but he has faired well at this course in the past and frankly 199/1 is ridiculous.

    Sergio Garcia 47/1 Hard to think he would ever have as good a chance to win a major as when gifting harrington that major in Carnoustie. But if there is any major sergio will win i think it is the open. I think it requires golfers to think outside the box and play out of their comfort zone. Not my most confident bet but i think he is worth a punt at the price.

    Matteo Mannassero 219/1 Very intelligent and almost reminds me of Seve. He is still young but is no long shot and few would be suprised to see him win a major or 2 or 3 in his time as a pro whether this will be the one im not sure but you could do worse at the price.
    Last but not least. No laughing!!

    Lee Westwood 14.5/1 What can you say/not say about this guy. He just deserves a major im not sure this will be set up entirely to suit but i fully expect him to be in the hunt on sunday just on pure class alone. Tremendously nice guy and exceptional Tee to Green stats. A few quid each way almost seems like a free bet.

    Good luck with your selections. All my odds are taken from current betfair prices.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭Mr. Larson


    The truth is nobody knows what tf is going to happen, nothing wrong with having people coming on sticking their necks out and sharing their punts. Have to laugh at people coming on rubbishing other peoples predictions as if they have some kind of idea what's gonna happen (or not). Tiger could win by 10, he also could miss the cut. That doesn't make whoever 'predicted' what was going to happen a Mystic Meg. A stopped clock is right twice a day.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,759 ✭✭✭Dr.Silly


    kiers47 wrote: »


    Darren Clarke 199/1 yes i know form at the moment is rubbish and it still looks like he is hungover from last years success but he has faired well at this course in the past and frankly 199/1 is ridiculous.

    Sergio Garcia 47/1 Hard to think he would ever have as good a chance to win a major as when gifting harrington that major in Carnoustie. But if there is any major sergio will win i think it is the open. I think it requires golfers to think outside the box and play out of their comfort zone. Not my most confident bet but i think he is worth a punt at the price.

    Matteo Mannassero 219/1 Very intelligent and almost reminds me of Seve. He is still young but is no long shot and few would be suprised to see him win a major or 2 or 3 in his time as a pro whether this will be the one im not sure but you could do worse at the price.
    Last but not least. No laughing!!

    Lee Westwood 14.5/1 What can you say/not say about this guy. He just deserves a major im not sure this will be set up entirely to suit but i fully expect him to be in the hunt on sunday just on pure class alone. Tremendously nice guy and exceptional Tee to Green stats. A few quid each way almost seems like a free bet.

    Good luck with your selections. All my odds are taken from current betfair prices.


    IMO, westwood doesn't have a chance. I've said this on other threads before. I don't think he has the short game or mentality to win.
    Darren Clarke, if we were to go on form, not a chance, but then again .. links course, etc etc .. he could be a surprise.

    Garcia, I like the look of at the moment and I think he could do well, it was himself or frederick for me, I ended up with Freddie cause of his solid putting and he seems to do well in big tournaments.

    Matteo .. just to young and inexperienced for me. I can definetely see him winning very soon though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭byronbay2


    Of all the Majors, The Open is the most unpredictable. The player who plays the best golf does not nescessarily win (ref. Rory McIlroy 2 years ago) due to changing weather conditions. I would never back any player at 5/1 or even 10/1 to win. Considering Tiger's recent Major record, 5/1 is an appalling price.
    I haven't really studied it yet but, off the top of my head, McIlroy and Harrington are the 2 names that immediately spring to mind.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭AGC


    Like most of the papers will write up I think Harrington has a great chance but the odds are too low. For a player ranked 60th in the world he should not be 3rd fav


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭Mr. Larson


    The bookies would be fairly stupid to base their odds on the World Rankings though, wouldn't they? They are a clever bunch.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,733 ✭✭✭SnowDrifts


    Also think Dustin Johnson is worth a punt. He was runner up at last year's Open. He has had a mixed season so far but has a win, 4th, 5th and a 9th out of 11 events played.

    Paddy have him @ 40-1 so an each way bet would put him at 10-1 for a top 7 place. This is too good to ignore IMO.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,381 ✭✭✭nbar12


    SnowDrifts wrote: »
    Also think Dustin Johnson is worth a punt. He was runner up at last year's Open. He has had a mixed season so far but has a win, 4th, 5th and a 9th out of 11 events played.

    Paddy have him @ 40-1 so an each way bet would put him at 10-1 for a top 7 place. This is too good to ignore IMO.

    Yeah I like the sound of Dustin Johnson! Definitely worth a couple of euro! I'm going to be a saddo and put all the golfers into a hat and pull out 5 names and back those players! :eek:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,331 ✭✭✭the lawman


    Defo the best tournament of the year.

    Sat in front of the box for ten hours a day sipping cold milk and eating popcorn. Then straight out onto the course for a few holes after feeling like Seve.

    PS please someone tell me it's on the BBC. Will actually make or break the above paragraph for me. Please?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,733 ✭✭✭SnowDrifts


    nbar12 wrote: »
    Yeah I like the sound of Dustin Johnson! Definitely worth a couple of euro! I'm going to be a saddo and put all the golfers into a hat and pull out 5 names and back those players! :eek:

    You know, with the Open, your probably better off doing that. Not many people would have predicted Clarke to win it last year, Tom Watson nearly winning it in 2009 or even Harrington having a back to back 2007/2008.

    We can study the form book as much as we like, but everyone knows that The Open nearly always throws up surprise results.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,564 ✭✭✭kiers47


    Dr.Silly wrote: »

    IMO, westwood doesn't have a chance. I've said this on other threads before. I don't think he has the short game or mentality to win.
    Darren Clarke, if we were to go on form, not a chance, but then again .. links course, etc etc .. he could be a surprise.

    Garcia, I like the look of at the moment and I think he could do well, it was himself or frederick for me, I ended up with Freddie cause of his solid putting and he seems to do well in big tournaments.

    Matteo .. just to young and inexperienced for me. I can definetely see him winning very soon though.
    I'm sorry to give westwood no chance is absolute nuts.. You give Jacobson a squeak but Westwood has no chance his short game isnt as bad as people make out nor is his putting and tbh if he can hit as many gir's as he usually does his short game could be crap and he could still be in the hunt on Sunday. I respect your opinion but right Westwood off at your peril!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,690 ✭✭✭Whyner


    Really should be 2 threads, one for the golf and one for the betting. It's cool you like your flutter but a lot of us couldn't care less


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,331 ✭✭✭the lawman


    Whyner wrote: »
    Really should be 2 threads, one for the golf and one for the betting. It's cool you like your flutter but a lot of us couldn't care less

    I'm with Whyner 100%. Can one of the betting dudes start an 'Open Betting' thread?

    And I still some kind soul to tell me it's on BBC.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Martin567


    the lawman wrote: »
    I'm with Whyner 100%. Can one of the betting dudes start an 'Open Betting' thread?

    And I still some kind soul to tell me it's on BBC.

    Yes, it's on BBC. They have an exclusive contract until either 2015 or 2016 as far as I know.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,987 ✭✭✭Trampas


    Like westwood i don't think PH is mentally right to win a major at the moment.

    I think it was after the 1st round of the irish open he is taking about playing a game he isn't use to when hitting from the fairway.

    If the greens are fast I think he will struggle as he is deceleration on his putts when fast greens.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭neckedit


    I think Harringtons quote about hitting from fairways was a bit tongue in cheek, as for the putting, he making good strokes, he believes he is misreading the pace or line, I for one would never question his mental strength, I believe he will be up the there come Sunday of the Open Championship.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,759 ✭✭✭Dr.Silly


    I would take Jamie Donaldson at 100/1 over Harrington at his price every day of the week


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭ArielAtom


    Hopefully the usual suspects keep with the Harrington bashing and he goes on to prove them wrong. I really hope its an Irish winner but would settle for a European one.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 325 ✭✭Dero123


    Two Americans who could go close

    Rickie Folwer @ 35/1
    Keegan Bradley @ 80/1


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭PGF


    Dr.Silly wrote: »
    IMO, westwood doesn't have a chance
    ....
    I ended up with Freddie cause ..... he seems to do well in big tournaments.

    What big events does Freddie do well in? He last had a top 10 in a major in 2003 and only has 2 in his career.

    Westwood on the other hand has had 2 top 10s in majors every year for the last 4 years. That to me is doing well in big events...
    kiers47 wrote: »
    I'm sorry to give westwood no chance is absolute nuts.. You give Jacobson a squeak but Westwood has no chance his short game isnt as bad as people make out nor is his putting and tbh if he can hit as many gir's as he usually does his short game could be crap and he could still be in the hunt on Sunday. I respect your opinion but right Westwood off at your peril!!

    Totally agree. Don't particularly like the guy but he's been the most consistent player in the majors for the last few years.


  • Site Banned Posts: 26,456 ✭✭✭✭Nuri Sahin


    Whyner wrote: »
    Really should be 2 threads, one for the golf and one for the betting. It's cool you like your flutter but a lot of us couldn't care less

    Well there's a proper forum for such topic alright :)

    ______________

    Anywhoo. I can't believe it's been 11 years since Duval won (was delighted for him back then as he deserved a Major) and Woosnam's extra club fiasco on Sunday. One of my favourite Open venues. Love the fact it opens up with a relatively short par 3.

    Also, it's kind of funny people talking about lacking mentality with regards to Westwood. Would have said that about Clarke a tad over a year ago tbf.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 321 ✭✭redhill


    -Ade- wrote: »
    Well there's a proper forum for such topic alright :)

    ______________

    Anywhoo. I can't believe it's been 11 years since Duval won (was delighted for him back then as he deserved a Major) and Woosnam's extra club fiasco on Sunday. One of my favourite Open venues. Love the fact it opens up with a relatively short par 3.

    Also, it's kind of funny people talking about lacking mentality with regards to Westwood. Would have said that about Clarke a tad over a year ago tbf.

    Yep u don't get many opening with a par 3, though I think it's long enough maybe over 200 as I can remember some hitting woods at it in 2001.
    Darren Clarke should have won this in 2001, he was the best in the field tee to green by a mile, but like a lot of his career his putting wasn't up to it that week.I have fond memories of that Open, I'll post later about it if I've time.
    Lytham is a venue for keeping it on the fairway, so Westwood will be in the mix, I expect top 10 at least.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 241 ✭✭idle


    Following on from bubba and Webb, are we likely to see a winner who goes to mass on the Sundays he misses the cut?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,200 ✭✭✭jjll


    im going for rickie fowler or dustin johnso to do biz aint looked at odds yet but those are my 2


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,013 ✭✭✭kincsem


    Martin Kaymer 40 €25.00 €975.00
    Keegan Bradley 115 €40.00 €4,560.00
    Thorbjorn Olesen 152 €25.00 €3,774.60
    Jamie Donaldson 155.1 €42.78 €6,591.22
    Retief Goosen 200.3 €12.65 €2,521.35
    Gary Woodland 354.1 €65.00 €22,951.90
    Marcus Fraser 370.1 €16.70 €6,164.80
    Carl Pettersson 381.9 €10.00 €3,808.90


    The last time it was at Lytham I had £100 at 66/1; £100 at 40/1 Niclas Fasth.
    He was leader in the clubhouse until David Duval cruised past him. Painful.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,013 ✭✭✭kincsem


    I think Lytham's only defence is loads of bunkers. From memory the greens are flat and good putters do well. Not ideal for Westwood, more suited to McDowell.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,381 ✭✭✭nbar12


    I genuinely think some unknown player like Troy Kelly will win it


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,370 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Lads this is not the Gambling Forum, please leave it at golf talk only thx


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,543 ✭✭✭JerryHandbag


    Lytham ends with 6 par 4s in a row. A bit boring, always good for drama to have a par 5 near the end. Probably my least favourite Open venue in that regard, presuming they haven't altered the par for this years event.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,729 ✭✭✭Speak Now


    Lytham ends with 6 par 4s in a row. A bit boring, always good for drama to have a par 5 near the end. Probably my least favourite Open venue in that regard, presuming they haven't altered the par for this years event.

    Only change from 2001 is the 6th will now be a par 4 not a par 5.
    So it's 34 out and 36 home. Course will be 181 yards longer than last time despite playing par 70 instead of 71.
    Looking forward to this, always liked Lytham.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,808 Mod ✭✭✭✭Keano


    Nick Faldo added to BBC team. Not cool BBC


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,381 ✭✭✭nbar12


    Nick Faldo added to BBC team. Not cool BBC

    I'd rather listen to BBC's Nick Faldo than Sky's Butch Harmon followed by a break every 10 minutes


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,543 ✭✭✭JerryHandbag


    Nick Faldo added to BBC team. Not cool BBC

    Why not bring back Sam Torrance? Must be a serious falling out behind the scenes there.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,690 ✭✭✭Whyner


    Nick Faldo added to BBC team. Not cool BBC

    At least he knows what he's talking about


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,370 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Whyner wrote: »
    At least he knows what he's talking about

    Of course he does, he mostly talks about himself!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,212 ✭✭✭Jaysoose


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Of course he does, he mostly talks about himself!

    At least we dont have to suffer monty talking about the ryder cup every 30 seconds..

    My bold precition for this years open is Big John Daly to shock the world..starting to play much better these days and a bit happier in himself and expect a decent run.

    Obviously it boils down to who has the all round game for a course like this and as much as it pains me to say it i can see poulter making a charge this year....i feel dirty..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,543 ✭✭✭JerryHandbag


    Jaysoose wrote: »
    At least we dont have to suffer monty talking about the ryder cup every 30 seconds..

    Or about the time he nearly won the US Open


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,212 ✭✭✭Jaysoose


    Or about the time he nearly won the US Open


    But it was an easy 7 iron from the fairway...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,057 ✭✭✭irish bloke


    Jaysoose wrote: »
    But it was an easy 7 iron from the fairway...

    Still love this imitation of Monty, takes him off to a tee:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,333 ✭✭✭Tones69


    Still love this imitation of Monty, takes him off to a tee:D

    Piss take or not, he creamed that


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 321 ✭✭redhill


    redhill wrote: »
    I have fond memories of that Open, I'll post later about it if I've time.
    Lytham is a venue for keeping it on the fairway, so Westwood will be in the mix, I expect top 10 at least.


     I was having a few days hols up on the north coast in july (2001) and there were rumors that Tiger was going to fly in and play Royal Portrush on the sunday before the british open. He'd being in ireland for the preceding week tuning his game for links golf and had played Royal county down the day before. As it happened my brother was going to play a round at r. portrush that day, so he said he would phone(on his brick of a Nokia back then) if tiger was playing and let me know, so a couple of hours later he phoned from the 3rd green to say there was no sign of tiger, but Phil Mickelson was standing behind him on the teebox. 
    So i took a trip over and followed them around the back nine.
    Phil was playing with Billy mayfair and his dad and mayfairs uncle i think in a fourball with billly andrade and mark calcaveccia playing in another fourball just behind
    they had flown over to ireland and hired a big bus and just drove around playing 5-6 of the great links course over the course of the week.
    it was a really enjoyable time walking the fairways watching the pro's at close quaters. there was only around 10-15 people walking around with the group and the players chatted and joked with us as they went along
    Mickelson had a **** hot pair of laser bioniculars with which he could tell the exact yardage to the pin to within 2 feet (at least they were 11years ago)
    Anyway phil played ok 1 eagle, 2 birdies and 2 bogeys in 9 holes but billy mayfair was playing like a dream. he went round in 64 and was peppering pins nearly every hole. He's a bit of a fred funk down the middle every fairway, his driving was that accurate it was frightening. Phil told us that mayfair was playing like that all week and would be worth a few bob at lytham for the open as he'd being in the top 10 (actually 11th) in 1996 when it was last played there
    So i lumped on Billy at 150/1 and 200/1 in the outright market and 100/1 for top yank and he did proud coming 3rd and making me a small fortune in the process. i'd never normally wish a golfer ill luck but i was secretly hoping duval would have a disaster to let me win the top american bet but to no avail!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭Benicetomonty


    I would've been glued to the tv all four days in 2001 when the Open was on but I don't remember a great deal about Lytham. Not sure what that says about the course but I do remember that quality of players that were involved on the last day and straight hitting seemed to be the order of the day. You didn't necessarily need to be long which explains why Woosnam, Langer and Montgomerie all had good runs during the week. But it does help, which explains why Duval won.

    It's important to remember that David Duval was amongst the straightest and longest drivers in the world around the turn of the century. He had very good runs in all the majors (except the USPGA, for whatever reason) between 1998 and his Open win, and when his time eventually came, it was a surprise to no-one. I still can't believe how far he's fallen since then, I watched every televised shot of his 59 at the Bob Hope Chrysler Classic (as it was known back then) and his 3 shots for a closing eagle were possibly the best I've ever seen.

    With all that in mind, Westwood (once again :p) gets my vote. I've already blown his trumpet enough in past threads so will simply repeat that I believe he will win a major very soon and am going to keep backing him until it happens.

    Based on the last 2 major winners however, it's ultimately very hard to predict who'll win. The weather will play a part...and not just over the week in question. With the amount of rain in the UK recently, the rough has to be fairly juicy and I'd say the course could be made as playable or as difficult as the R and A see fit. Woods will really fancy his chances even with the recent MC. McIlroy is possibly the best driver I've seen since Duval (contending that he is slightly longer than Westwood). GMac has led the Open before, if he can sustain it this time, you never know. Harrington has never hit the ball better, with a good Scottish Open, he'll be supremely confident going in imo.

    Rickie Fowler has been mentioned- he really impressed me last year. It's very early to be saying it but the Open could be his best shot at a major, would not be at all surprised if he were to win it at some stage.

    Finally, if, like in 2001, a few veterans get in the mix, It'd be great to see Davis Love or Ernie Els go close. If either can sort out years of putting woes, I give 'em a shot! And what the hell, throw Darren in there as well :D


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