A GAMSAT Score of 54 got you into medicine last year, can it really go any lower!!

MLH1

A GAMSAT Score of 54 got you into medicine last year, can it really go any lower!!


Will GEM in Ireland become a joke if in comparison to England, its only a matter of applying and getting a poor result that gets you into the course!

In no way am I bashing any GEM Program I'm sure they are all very intense but a GAMSAT score of 54 does mean someone is an over achiever by any means, until last year GEM was so sought after but if this year follows last year with an increase in places will Ireland GEM become another joke of the country.

In before anyone points it out, yes I know I didn't score too highly with my 55, and I rejected a place on GEM but I just feel this is a topic that needs discussion as it seems to have been skipped over by this forum that GEM took a enormous plunge in entry requirements last year.

cliona88

MLH1 wrote: »

A GAMSAT Score of 54 got you into medicine last year, can it really go any lower!!

Will GEM in Ireland become a joke if in comparison to England, its only a matter of applying and getting a poor result that gets you into the course!

In no way am I bashing any GEM Program I'm sure they are all very intense but a GAMSAT score of 54 does mean someone is an over achiever by any means, until last year GEM was so sought after but if this year follows last year with an increase in places will Ireland GEM become another joke of the country.

In before anyone points it out, yes I know I didn't score too highly with my 55, and I rejected a place on GEM but I just feel this is a topic that needs discussion as it seems to have been skipped over by this forum that GEM took a enormous plunge in entry requirements last year.

I got a score of 53 so I hope it stays this way for another year at least. I was considering rejecting a place if I got one because of my low score. But when I thought of it, spending another year practising for gamsat isn't going to make me any more intelligent. although a higher score after doing a course such as gradmed may make me appear so. Anyways after achieving a 2.1 in my degree, and studying science over the summer as best I can i think I will be able for it!

cliona88

Sorry I realise that i didn't really answer your question. I just meant if it stays low then I'd be happy to accept a place. I don't think a low score will have a massive effect on the individuals experience of the course. A 2.1 degree says a lot more about a persons work ethic (which is more important for medicine) than an amazing gamsat score.

51533823

MLH1 wrote: »

A GAMSAT Score of 54 got you into medicine last year, can it really go any lower!!


Will GEM in Ireland become a joke if in comparison to England, its only a matter of applying and getting a poor result that gets you into the course!

In no way am I bashing any GEM Program I'm sure they are all very intense but a GAMSAT score of 54 does mean someone is an over achiever by any means, until last year GEM was so sought after but if this year follows last year with an increase in places will Ireland GEM become another joke of the country.

In before anyone points it out, yes I know I didn't score too highly with my 55, and I rejected a place on GEM but I just feel this is a topic that needs discussion as it seems to have been skipped over by this forum that GEM took a enormous plunge in entry requirements last year.

Yes, I agree to some degree that the points are getting low - to the point where 1 in 2 people who sit the GAMSAT will get in. But as you said, the places are there and they have to fill them. You're aware, I'm sure, that the cut off points simply reflect demand. Remember too that if less people are taking the GAMSAT then not everybody can be in the 80th percentile. If the population of a curved distribution is small then the cut off must be low.

However in saying that, we have some people in our class who got in the mid 60's and are doing fine and some who got 54 and are doing even better. Go figure!

As an aside, why did you reject a place?

ciara84

i feel as if this is a troll thread, I got a 72 in GAMSAT, I've a first class degree in commerce and an MBA, I had to study my ass off just to pass, while others with 60s and 2.1s have been flying it.

spotsanddots

I have my 2.1 and got a 54 in the UK test in 2011.. fingers and toes are crossed at the moment but I am also prepping for the GAMSAT again this Sept

jtsuited

Good idea for a thread. 54 is an absolutely abysmal score by international standards. That is the crux of the matter.
Adding to this is the reality that because of this cutoff, it essentially meant that last year's gamsat was a coinflip exam.

I would not feel great about a doctor treating me who sat the gamsat multiple times and could only score a 54.

cliona88

jtsuited wrote: »

Good idea for a thread. 54 is an absolutely abysmal score by international standards. That is the crux of the matter.
Adding to this is the reality that because of this cutoff, it essentially meant that last year's gamsat was a coinflip exam.

I would not feel great about a doctor treating me who sat the gamsat multiple times and could only score a 54.

That's ridiculous. Everyone knows that you can do terribly in the gamsat and pay thousands on courses to improve your chances of achieving a high mark. A person who accepts a place on a low score isn't going to be more intelligent after doing better in the exam after multiple attempts!

spotsanddots

The GAMSAT doesn't reflect how good a doctor you could become!

pc11

spotsanddots wrote: »

The GAMSAT doesn't reflect how good a doctor you could become!

I hope it does, otherwise we shouldn't be using it!

spotsanddots

pc11 wrote: »

I hope it does, otherwise we shouldn't be using it!

I think it is used to assess whether or not you are suitable to study graduate entry medicine not on how good/bad a doctor you will become!:)

51533823

jtsuited wrote: »

Good idea for a thread. 54 is an absolutely abysmal score by international standards. That is the crux of the matter.
Adding to this is the reality that because of this cutoff, it essentially meant that last year's gamsat was a coinflip exam.

I would not feel great about a doctor treating me who sat the gamsat multiple times and could only score a 54.

I don't think you understand how it is scored. The GAMSAT score vs percentile score on the exam changes with each exam. Its an arbitrary number which rates the candidates of one sitting against each other so "international standards" don't come into it.

Biologic

51533823 wrote: »

I don't think you understand how it is scored. The GAMSAT score vs percentile score on the exam changes with each exam. Its an arbitrary number which rates the candidates of one sitting against each other so "international standards" don't come into it.

Whatever way you cut it, a 54 is a low score to be accepted on. And the argument that "he only got his score because of a prep course" is also rubbish. If someone gets a top 10% score, they are intellectually capable of getting that score. The prep course didn't sit the exam for them. People go to private schools to sit the LC and score higher points, the same principle applies here.
I think you need a certain level of intelligence for medicine and beyond that it's all about hard work. If a 54 is the maximum someone can achieve, they will struggle badly. If a 54 is their score but not the best they can achieve, the cutoff should be high enough to make them prove their worth before they start. Honestly, I don't think the selection process is effective unless there is enough demand to keep the cutoff about ~57/58.

51533823

Biologic wrote: »

Whatever way you cut it, a 54 is a low score to be accepted on. And the argument that "he only got his score because of a prep course" is also rubbish. If someone gets a top 10% score, they are intellectually capable of getting that score. The prep course didn't sit the exam for them. People go to private schools to sit the LC and score higher points, the same principle applies here.
I think you need a certain level of intelligence for medicine and beyond that it's all about hard work. If a 54 is the maximum someone can achieve, they will struggle badly. If a 54 is their score but not the best they can achieve, the cutoff should be high enough to make them prove their worth before they start. Honestly, I don't think the selection process is effective unless there is enough demand to keep the cutoff about ~57/58.

What does a score of 57/58 mean to you?

jtsuited

51533823 wrote: »

I don't think you understand how it is scored. The GAMSAT score vs percentile score on the exam changes with each exam. Its an arbitrary number which rates the candidates of one sitting against each other so "international standards" don't come into it.

while there is a certain amount of weighting, international standards DO come into it.
It's not some arbitrary score they pull out of nowhere. Otherwise they wouldn't allow gamsat scores to a) be valid for 2 years and b) be used in any country.

jtsuited

51533823 wrote: »

I don't think you understand how it is scored. The GAMSAT score vs percentile score on the exam changes with each exam. Its an arbitrary number which rates the candidates of one sitting against each other so "international standards" don't come into it.

I don't think you understand how percentiles work. About 50% of those that sat gamsat 2011 in dublin would have got an offer for graduate medicine. Comparing that to previous years and other countries (remember gamsat scores are valid for 2 years in any country), that means that there was something seriously amiss.

jtsuited

cliona88 wrote: »

That's ridiculous. Everyone knows that you can do terribly in the gamsat and pay thousands on courses to improve your chances of achieving a high mark. A person who accepts a place on a low score isn't going to be more intelligent after doing better in the exam after multiple attempts!

i think you have misread my point..... If somebody did the gamsat 5 times and got 54 on their final best attempt, I'm gonna hazard a guess that they're not that bright. Mightn't be a popular thing to say but I imagine a lot of people agree with me.

54 is a bloody awful score no matter which way you look at it. If you get it first time round with no prep etc, then it's slightly understandable. If you spent years taking 4 or 5 goes at the gamsat and that's the best you can do, well, i'm not going to have much faith in your reasoning abilities.

cliona88

Biologic wrote: »

51533823 wrote: »

I don't think you understand how it is scored. The GAMSAT score vs percentile score on the exam changes with each exam. Its an arbitrary number which rates the candidates of one sitting against each other so "international standards" don't come into it.

Whatever way you cut it, a 54 is a low score to be accepted on. And the argument that "he only got his score because of a prep course" is also rubbish. If someone gets a top 10% score, they are intellectually capable of getting that score. The prep course didn't sit the exam for them. People go to private schools to sit the LC and score higher points, the same principle applies here.
I think you need a certain level of intelligence for medicine and beyond that it's all about hard work. If a 54 is the maximum someone can achieve, they will struggle badly. If a 54 is their score but not the best they can achieve, the cutoff should be high enough to make them prove their worth before they start. Honestly, I don't think the selection process is effective unless there is enough demand to keep the cutoff about ~57/58.

I don't believe a difference of three percent in gamsat represents two people of markedly different intellectual capabilities! A person who resits gamsat and scores three percent less their first attempt is not three percent less intelligent than previously!

Biologic

51533823 wrote: »

What does a score of 57/58 mean to you?

Very vague question but I'll give it a go. The score itself means that, taking an Irish average, this person scored better than about 80% of his/her peers in an exam designed to test aptitude for a medical curriculum. It means that the person is probably able for the course if they put in the work. A score of 54 doesn't mean that they are incapable of studying medicine, just that they haven't proven any particular aptitude for it. I think the cutoff should be high enough to guarantee (as much as possible) that the people coming in are able for it.
When I was studying for the GAMSAT some people in my area had sat it and scored in the low 50s. They really weren't bright at all, and had worked very hard for their score. In this case, the system worked. They're off doing courses/jobs now that they enjoy (and in both cases are better at those jobs than I would be), but medicine would have been extremely challenging for them. I'm sure there's loads of people out there with 54s who are smarter than me, but when the cutoff dips that low they're probably mixed in with a cohort that shouldn't be studying medicine. I think it's fairer if we ask the smart ones to increase their score than to ask the rest to get into debt for a course they mightn't pass.

Biologic

cliona88 wrote: »

I don't believe a difference of three percent in gamsat represents two people of markedly different intellectual capabilities! A person who resits gamsat and scores three percent less their first attempt is not three percent less intelligent than previously!

Huh? A score of 54 doesn't mean you're 54% intelligent. And a difference of 4 points doesn't mean there's a 4% gap between 2 applicants.
A score of 54 the year I sat GAMSAT put you in the 56th percentile, whereas a 58 put you in the 81st. That does represent a huge difference.
I don't get your point about the intelligence thing. Institutions need a means to assess candidates. Your score is that. If you do badly, you can't just say "oh I would do better next year so just let me in now to save me the time". That's not workable at all. You won't be more intelligent next year, but you will have proven yourself to be of the appropriate intelligence. That's the basis for every selection test out there. Imagine someone walked into CAO and said "I got a 230 in my leaving cert and 60 in the HPAT, but I promise you I'm smart enough for medicine". They may well be telling the truth, but they'd rightly be laughed out of the office.

caroline1111

It seems a bit crazy that nearly 1 in every 2 that do the exam can get into grad med when you compare it to the leaving cert demand for medicine. People with no science backgrounds spending a few weeks studying and just doing the exam on a whim and still getting in tells you theres something not right about the requirements. You should be required to get at least 80th percentile to gain admissionbut then the courses would be half empty. Also the general 2.1 requirement is a bit of a joke as some degrees are a hell of a lot easier than others, depending on what course and what college it was done in...
Grad med is a good idea but theres just too many places at the end of the day.

Flange/Flanders

But surely, if a person who gets 54 and isnt smart enough for medicine, wont they be found out in medical school? Just because someone aces the GAMSAT doesnt mean that they're going to ace medical school or vice vearsa. As someone said, if they dont have the ability for medicine but luck out by getting 54 on their 4th go, then they wont luck out every year in medical school?

Also, gamsat scores are not directly comparable between different years, you have to take into account the percentile ranking as well.

cliona88

Flange/Flanders wrote: »

But surely, if a person who gets 54 and isnt smart enough for medicine, wont they be found out in medical school? Just because someone aces the GAMSAT doesnt mean that they're going to ace medical school or vice vearsa. As someone said, if they dont have the ability for medicine but luck out by getting 54 on their 4th go, then they wont luck out every year in medical school?

Also, gamsat scores are not directly comparable between different years, you have to take into account the percentile ranking as well.

I agree completely flange/flanders. The stress of waiting for an offer with not much hope has got to me, threads starting like this don't help.

51533823

Biologic wrote: »

Huh? A score of 54 doesn't mean you're 54% intelligent. And a difference of 4 points doesn't mean there's a 4% gap between 2 applicants.
A score of 54 the year I sat GAMSAT put you in the 56th percentile, whereas a 58 put you in the 81st. That does represent a huge difference.
I don't get your point about the intelligence thing. Institutions need a means to assess candidates. Your score is that. If you do badly, you can't just say "oh I would do better next year so just let me in now to save me the time". That's not workable at all. You won't be more intelligent next year, but you will have proven yourself to be of the appropriate intelligence. That's the basis for every selection test out there. Imagine someone walked into CAO and said "I got a 230 in my leaving cert and 60 in the HPAT, but I promise you I'm smart enough for medicine". They may well be telling the truth, but they'd rightly be laughed out of the office.

I agree with much of what you're saying but the problem is that a certain score will be matched for certain percentile in one sitting (e.g. in the UK in Sept) and the same score will be a very different percentile in another sitting (e.g. the Irish exam). I sat both, saw both curves noticed that there was an 8-10 percentile difference between similar scores.

Reality_Check1

Just a point I find interesting is that the people having this debate seem to be split on 2 sides - jtsuited and biologic on one side who both have been in med school for a couple of years now having blitzed the GAMSAT v people who are still waiting for a place to see if they got in after possibly not such a GAMSAT sitting - just funny I thought no real other opinion on whats been said already.

As for will the points go lower. I believe they will due to funding issues. I think the GAMSAT is only really a relevant screening tool if the cut-off point is kept around 57/58 - otherwise whats really the point? Lets be honest (and I dont mean to offend anyone) but that isnt a terribly high score to get. If it goes any lower there would be no point sitting an exam at all as anyone with half an iota of intelligence would be getting in.

Id imagine in the near future there will be an interview system put in place to accompany the GAMSAT. I know why it cant be done in Ireland but the GAMSAT alone method may no longer be sufficient

lonelywanderer

Why can't there be an interview exactly? Not aware of this...

Biologic

51533823 wrote: »

I agree with much of what you're saying but the problem is that a certain score will be matched for certain percentile in one sitting (e.g. in the UK in Sept) and the same score will be a very different percentile in another sitting (e.g. the Irish exam). I sat both, saw both curves noticed that there was an 8-10 percentile difference between similar scores.

Yeah but I think that's why we get offered places based on the seemingly arbitrary GAMSAT numerical score as opposed to percentiles. A person in London may have done exactly as well as someone in Dublin, but because the London cohort were more prepared they scored lower in the percentile ranking but the same in GAMSAT score. Therefore, when they come back to Ireland, their GAMSAT score slots them in at a higher Irish percentile. At least this is the way I hope it works, otherwise ACER have no business making the scores transferable. In short, it shouldn't matter what their percentile was in the UK if they're applying to Ireland. Their score should be applied to the Irish curve. I could be totally wrong on this though.

Flange/Flanders wrote: »

But surely, if a person who gets 54 and isnt smart enough for medicine, wont they be found out in medical school? Just because someone aces the GAMSAT doesnt mean that they're going to ace medical school or vice vearsa. As someone said, if they dont have the ability for medicine but luck out by getting 54 on their 4th go, then they wont luck out every year in medical school?

I think that's deceptive towards the student. You're telling them that they've passed an aptitude test for medical school when in reality they will find it extremely difficult. One of the UL students posted a while ago saying that many of the people failing were those on lower GAMSAT scores. If they fail, they're out up to 25k with no way to pay it back. Also, they're costing the taxpayer thousands and taking up a place in medical school.
Again, there's plenty of people out there with 54s who are well able for it. But as GAMSAT scores go down, the proportion of people who would find medical school too difficult goes up. I personally think 54 is way beyond the point where there's an acceptable level of proven aptitude.

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

I think the GAMSAT is only really a relevant screening tool if the cut-off point is kept around 57/58 - otherwise whats really the point? Lets be honest (and I dont mean to offend anyone) but that isnt a terribly high score to get. If it goes any lower there would be no point sitting an exam at all as anyone with half an iota of intelligence would be getting in.

Agreed.

jtsuited

i've said it before, but people get way too defensive on this forum. just to clarify, i've only been in med school a year.

if you find a thread like this stresses you out, seriously think about the profession you are aspiring to enter. I can only speak for RCSI, but from the day you enter you're under pressure to not look like an idiot. In medicine this is actually a pretty difficult task when you get grilled quite regularly. If you don't have a sense of humour, thick skin and an ability to honestly look at the reality of situations, you are in for a life of pure hell should you enter medicine.

I'm always hearing this 'well just because you scored this, doesn't mean you'll be a good doctor', and without starting a war, it tends to be from UL people. Being empathetic and good with people is useless if you're ropey on the basics of medicine.

Nanorman

Person1 "The GAMSAT is broken, you can get any score if you take it enough times or lucky in multiple choice. I hate it."
People who got under 60 "What a wise person, he speaks like I think!"

Person2 "The GAMSAT is revolutionary, progressive and really has the ability to seek out the most competent of potential doctors. I love it."
People who got over 60 "What a wise person, he speaks like I think!"

cliona88

jtsuited wrote: »

i've said it before, but people get way too defensive on this forum. just to clarify, i've only been in med school a year.

if you find a thread like this stresses you out, seriously think about the profession you are aspiring to enter. I can only speak for RCSI, but from the day you enter you're under pressure to not look like an idiot. In medicine this is actually a pretty difficult task when you get grilled quite regularly. If you don't have a sense of humour, thick skin and an ability to honestly look at the reality of situations, you are in for a life of pure hell should you enter medicine.

I'm always hearing this 'well just because you scored this, doesn't mean you'll be a good doctor', and without starting a war, it tends to be from UL people. Being empathetic and good with people is useless if you're ropey on the basics of medicine.

I'm gonna guess you're referring to me there. This thread isnt stressing me. The uncertainty of my future is, and mainly trying to save money to resit gamsat. As i don't live in a cloud, I think this would cause most people mild stress. Anyways I didn't ask your opinion regarding my future profession. Why lower the tone of your discussion by making it personal and condescending?

51533823

Surely ACER must have guidelines on the ratio of the number of candidates to the number of places available for the GAMSAT to be an effective tool.

It will be very interesting to see the applicant pool statistics from the CAO this year. I know that many of my classmates and I couldn't have done it without the full loan package, which is now very hard to come by.