Why aren't Irish composers more rated?

FishBowel

Some of today's younger British composers have 'made it' already. In the sense that their CDs are on sale in the shops, their music is regularly performed, and they get written about in the media. So why are so few Irish composers doing as well? Even the older ones are little known. Are they just not good enough or is it due to little support for classical music in this country?

Norrdeth

FishBowel wrote: »

Some of today's younger British composers have 'made it' already.
In the sense that their CDs are on sale in the shops, their music is regularly performed,
and they get written about in the media.
So why are so few Irish composers doing as well?
Even the older ones are little known.
Are they just not good enough or is it due to little support for classical music in this country?

There would be a few seemingly good reasons why this is the case,
for example we have no PROMs here, a lower population density
which = less money for funding and also a smaller number of ensembles
dedicated to contemporary from living Irish composers music.

While the scene may appear healthy enough there definitely isn't as much
support as lets say our colleagues in Austria or Germany.

I believe it's more down to attitude than anything else.
Most performers see contemporary music as a risk,
and feel it's necessary only to pursue it if they seemingly fail at great interpretations of the past masters.
It's an attitude that really has to change, and we can't be performing late 19th century music forever(great as it may be),
culture can't really take the strain.

That said there are some quite young composers making waves at the moment abroad,
I would cite some of the people I most admire in this respect as Piaras Hoban, Ann Cleare, & Gráinne Mulvey.

If you're interested in how Irish composers are doing the best places to hear
about them is on cmc.ie or from the journal of music in Ireland.

pconn062

Norrdeth wrote: »

That said there are some quite young composers making waves at the moment abroad,
I would cite some of the people I most admire in this respect as Piaras Hoban, Ann Cleare, & Gráinne Mulvey.

If you're interested in how Irish composers are doing the best places to hear
about them is on cmc.ie or from the journal of music in Ireland.

I think Grainne would be quite pleased (or maybe not) to hear you call her a young composer considering she is 46 years of age!
My opinion, there simply isn't an appetite for contemporary classical music in this country, as least not on a large scale. You have to remember that Ireland has NO history of art music unlike Germany or Britain and the concept of Irish contemporary music is quite a new concept, with the first works produced only in the last 60 years or so. Also composers of contemporary music never really reach fame and commercial success as the music simply doesn't appeal to the masses. Look at the British composers who are successful, John Tavener and Karl Jenkins, there music is much more accessible and 'listener friendly' than the music written by most contemporary composers. There are some Irish composers who have had commercial success, most noteworthy Bill Whelan with Riverdance but also other composers such as Kevin Volans who string quartet "white man sleeps" is one of the biggest selling classical records since it was recorded by the Kronos Quartet. As a composer myself I can only hope the situation improves, although honestly most composers I know are not particularly interested in commercial success.

FishBowel

You're an Irish composer so where do we stand compared with other countries? Do our composers deserve being ignored, should they emigrate to achieve success or recognition, or is a lot of the stuff being done here just derivative and unoriginal? It saddens me going into my local charity shop and seeing unopened CDs from the CMC on sale! Also, why do Irish composers work year after year if they've no interest in 'commercial success'? Isn't that a bit arrogant? Surely they want their work to be heard and get noticed?

pconn062

FishBowel wrote: »

You're an Irish composer so where do we stand compared with other countries? Do our composers deserve being ignored, should they emigrate to achieve success or recognition, or is a lot of the stuff being done here just derivative and unoriginal? It saddens me going into my local charity shop and seeing unopened CDs from the CMC on sale! Also, why do Irish composers work year after year if they've no interest in 'commercial success'? Isn't that a bit arrogant? Surely they want their work to be heard and get noticed?

When I say no interest in commercial success I mean that composers won't alter their natural style in order to achieve commercial success. If a composer writes in a particular atonal style for example, that is never going to achieve widespread popularity, but I don't think many composers would adopt a different style just to sell CD's.

As to your first question, I think other countries have a higher level of interest in contemporary music but I think is more due to countries such as Germany and France having a much longer history of art music. Some of the music being written here is a bit derivative in the same way that some of the music in other countries is derivative but there are some very good composers active in this country who enjoy artistic success. Examples being Ian Wilson, Kevin Volans, Gerald Barry, John Buckley, Jane O' Leary etc.

Undergod

pconn062 wrote: »

there are some very good composers active in this country who enjoy artistic success. Examples being Ian Wilson, Kevin Volans, Gerald Barry, John Buckley, Jane O' Leary etc.

Damn straight. I'm a young composer myself, and it's not easy to get a career in Ireland. I'm sure it's difficult everywhere, but Ireland is pretty small and traditionally doesn't support classical music/art music particularly well.

That said, there are some composers doing very well in Ireland - the trick seems to be in making your own opportunities (though again, not as easy as it sounds). The ICC (plug plug plug) and Ergodos are two groups that come to mind that present music primarily by young composers.

CecilBlunt

Any YouTube links to your work?

richardh330

I can see I'm a bit late to this post but I'm very keen in becoming a composer but my only problem is, are there any jobs for the future. I'm only 17 years old so I still have a while to decide but I need to be thinking about college courses. As of now, my first choice would be a BA in Composition at RIAM. So is there any hope for future irish composers?

Undergod

richardh330 wrote: »

I can see I'm a bit late to this post but I'm very keen in becoming a composer but my only problem is, are there any jobs for the future. I'm only 17 years old so I still have a while to decide but I need to be thinking about college courses. As of now, my first choice would be a BA in Composition at RIAM. So is there any hope for future irish composers?

I did that course - feel free to PM me if you want to chat about it.

What do you mean by "hope for future Irish composers"? You're probably not going to walk out of college into a salaried job, but there's other ways of making a living while being a composer. Teaching is the main one, and in fairness everyone in music in Ireland has to teach.

And, sorry this is such a late response; I don't have any work on youtube, but I do have a soundcloud.

Fluorescence

Linda Buckley is doing quite well for herself these days.

Internationally, new composers are finding it tough. I don't think it's necessarily an Irish phenomenon

richardh330

Undergod wrote: »

What do you mean by "hope for future Irish composers"? You're probably not going to walk out of college into a salaried job, but there's other ways of making a living while being a composer. Teaching is the main one, and in fairness everyone in music in Ireland has to teach.

When I say hope I mean a future career and a good means to live. Also, what will a composer teach? Composition or an instrument? Because I've never heard of a composition teacher, apart from the lecturers in college. Here's my soundcloud as well.

Fluorescence

richardh330 wrote: »

When I say hope I mean a future career and a good means to live. Also, what will a composer teach? Composition or an instrument? Because I've never heard of a composition teacher, apart from the lecturers in college. Here's my soundcloud as well.

To be frank, rarely is composition a career as such. The cmc usually tries to support budding talent but it will never be your day job

SubBusted

Stupid question but is Linda John Buckley's daughter?

Fluorescence

Dunno, quite possibly. I had a quick google there and found nothing.

Undergod

richardh330 wrote: »

When I say hope I mean a future career and a good means to live. Also, what will a composer teach? Composition or an instrument? Because I've never heard of a composition teacher, apart from the lecturers in college. Here's my soundcloud as well.

I teach piano and clarinet; some places do have composition teachers outside of college but it is rare alright. You'd probably be able to teach theory as well.

Very few people have composition and no other career, and composers are expected to do more nowadays than we used to. As well as composing, you have to be able to self-promote, prepare your own scores and parts, and it's very useful to be able to conduct.

Other than teaching, you could also work in arts administration (working in public or private bodies that facilitate the arts), curate an ensemble, typeset music, or a number of other things. This is known as a "portfolio career" and to be honest, is the norm nowadays and expected from most people.

pconn062

Fluorescence wrote: »

To be frank, rarely is composition a career as such. The cmc usually tries to support budding talent but it will never be your day job

While it is not that common I know of several composers in Ireland who make a living purely from composition, Ian Wilson and Kevin Volans to name two.

pconn062

richardh330 wrote: »

I can see I'm a bit late to this post but I'm very keen in becoming a composer but my only problem is, are there any jobs for the future. I'm only 17 years old so I still have a while to decide but I need to be thinking about college courses. As of now, my first choice would be a BA in Composition at RIAM. So is there any hope for future irish composers?

Agree with Undergod, composition is not a career you choose if you are interested in making money! I have a degree in music, an MA in composition and am currently doing a PhD in compositions, have been writing seriously since 2008 and apart from some competition prize money I haven't earned a penny from my music. I (like most other composers) work as well as a piano teacher and also some part time hours lecturing. It's a bit like becoming a nun, a vocation rather than a career!

Sure while we are sticking up soundcloud pages!

Fluorescence

pconn062 wrote: »

While it is not that common I know of several composers in Ireland who make a living purely from composition, Ian Wilson and Kevin Volans to name two.

Aye I'm not denying it happens, but I'm not saying it's a viable career as such. Even the most talented composers have day jobs for the most part.

It is more usual to earn money in order to make music rather than the other way around

Undergod

pconn062 wrote: »

While it is not that common I know of several composers in Ireland who make a living purely from composition, Ian Wilson and Kevin Volans to name two.

By his CMC bio, Ian Wilson has been involved with universities in some capacity, and has done artistic direction work. Kevin Volans teaches privately a little bit I think.

We're basically agreeing though; it's the exception rather than the rule.

Undergod

pconn062 wrote: »

Agree with Undergod, composition is not a career you choose if you are interested in making money! I have a degree in music, an MA in composition and am currently doing a PhD in compositions, have been writing seriously since 2008 and apart from some competition prize money I haven't earned a penny from my music. I (like most other composers) work as well as a piano teacher and also some part time hours lecturing. It's a bit like becoming a nun, a vocation rather than a career!

Sure while we are sticking up soundcloud pages!

I see you're in the ICC too! You had a piece played in the piano/sax concert? I did as well, but I wasn't actually able to make it that night.

richardh330

To join CMC do you have to have any qualifications or anything special to be a member. Well, apart from the obvious of plenty of compositions is there anything you need to do to be part of CMC?

pconn062

Undergod wrote: »

I see you're in the ICC too! You had a piece played in the piano/sax concert? I did as well, but I wasn't actually able to make it that night.

Yes I did! It was a lovely concert, I really enjoyed your piece that night, all the pieces were great that night.

richardh330 wrote: »

To join CMC do you have to have any qualifications or anything special to be a member. Well, apart from the obvious of plenty of compositions is there anything you need to do to be part of CMC?

You don't really join the CMC per se, you have to be accepted. I recently applied (and was accepted, should have a page up soon!) to the CMC and the application involved sending in scores, bios, recordings, CV etc and then they are sent off to be adjudicated by an external panel. You have to be seen to show a commitment to composition as a major factor in your professional life in order to be accepted. The CMC is a professional organisation that represents you and promotes you so they try to make sure the composers they select are as committed as possible (so I was told!).

Undergod

pconn062 wrote: »

Yes I did! It was a lovely concert, I really enjoyed your piece that night, all the pieces were great that night.

Cheers!

richardh330 wrote: »

To join CMC do you have to have any qualifications or anything special to be a member. Well, apart from the obvious of plenty of compositions is there anything you need to do to be part of CMC?

In addition to what Richard said, it usually expects a master's level degree in music, or a significant amount of professional experience, before it will accept you - that's the "major factor" they look for.

You're still very young from their point of view, the youngest member as far as I know is 24. In the meantime, to get serious about things, get pieces played - you've mentioned you're still in school, are there other students you could write for, or local ensembles you could approach? Consider joining the ICC (Irish Composers' Collective) - Patrick and I are both members of this group and I would recommend it to anyone beginning a composition career. It's based in Dublin so that's obviously not ideal right now, but if you do the BA in the RIAM it'll be easier.

SubBusted

Undergod wrote: »

In addition to what Richard said, it usually expects a master's level degree in music, or a significant amount of professional experience, before it will accept you - that's the "major factor" they look for.

Surely if you're any good or succesful you would be accepted? Frank McNamara is a more successful composer than most in this country but he's not a member. Seems to be an elitist organisation for people who compose atonal music with no audience?

IceFjoem

SubBusted wrote: »

Surely if you're any good or succesful you would be accepted? Frank McNamara is a more successful composer than most in this country but he's not a member. Seems to be an elitist organisation for people who compose atonal music with no audience?

Don't get me started, it's like some kind of centre for those who write contemporary classical music, where only the composers are promoted, talk about elitism!

Undergod

SubBusted wrote: »

Surely if you're any good or succesful you would be accepted?

Um, yes.

SubBusted wrote: »

Frank McNamara is a more successful composer than most in this country but he's not a member.

Maybe he doesn't want to? I'm not familiar with his work.

SubBusted wrote: »

Seems to be an elitist organisation for people who compose atonal music with no audience?

Like those Darmstadt fascists Bill Whelan and Shaun Davey.

pconn062

SubBusted wrote: »

Surely if you're any good or succesful you would be accepted? Frank McNamara is a more successful composer than most in this country but he's not a member. Seems to be an elitist organisation for people who compose atonal music with no audience?

You seem to be equating success with being good, lots of people are successful, doesn't mean they are good!

IceFjoem

pconn062 wrote: »

You seem to be equating success with being good, lots of people are successful, doesn't mean they are good!

Yea, like Lex Luthor.

SubBusted

Undergod wrote: »

Like those Darmstadt fascists Bill Whelan and Shaun Davey.

Well, why isn't Ronan Hardiman a member? He's a successful and famous Irish composer whose music is mainstream and available on CD. Some of those members in the CMC no-one's heard of.

IceFjoem

SubBusted wrote: »

Well, why isn't Ronan Hardiman a member? He's a successful and famous Irish composer whose music is mainstream and available on CD. Some of those members in the CMC no-one's heard of.

Contemporary Music Conspiracy

Undergod

SubBusted wrote: »

Well, why isn't Ronan Hardiman a member? He's a successful and famous Irish composer whose music is mainstream and available on CD. Some of those members in the CMC no-one's heard of.

Don't hurt your back moving the goalposts there.

I'm afraid I don't know why Ronan Hardiman hasn't joined the CMC - personally, I don't know his work, but from a quick google he seems to write chiefly music for dance and theater. The CMC is more for people who write concert and chamber music, as far as I can tell, so maybe that's why? Or maybe he doesn't need it for the promotion of his own career? Or he's never gotten around to it?

I'm not sure why this is relevant to be honest.

SubBusted

Undergod wrote: »

The CMC is more for people who write concert and chamber music, as far as I can tell, so maybe that's why?

What about Daniel Figgis then? He's not listed as a member on the CMC site yet writes concert/chamber/installation music. Big article about him in today's Irish Times.

pconn062

SubBusted wrote: »

What about Daniel Figgis then? He's not listed as a member on the CMC site yet writes concert/chamber/installation music. Big article about him in today's Irish Times.

I imagine you would be better off asking Daniel Figgis why he is not a member of the CMC than us, he could probably give you a better answer. Maybe he has never looked to join for personal reasons?

SubBusted

Or maybe he's not an respected academic with a Masters who composes on the side so couldn't get in? Would any other Irish composer pose on a record cover with his genitals exposed? Who in the CMC would have the real balls to do that?

pconn062

SubBusted wrote: »

Or maybe he's not an respected academic with a Masters who composes on the side so couldn't get in? Would any other Irish composer pose on a record cover with his genitals exposed? Who in the CMC would have the real balls to do that?

Who indeed, I'll definitely keep it in mind though for my first commercial CD!

Undergod

SubBusted wrote: »

Or maybe he's not an respected academic with a Masters who composes on the side so couldn't get in?

This also describes other CMC members.

SubBusted wrote: »

Would any other Irish composer pose on a record cover with his genitals exposed? Who in the CMC would have the real balls to do that?

pconn062 wrote: »

Who indeed, I'll definitely keep it in mind though for my first commercial CD!

Race you?

richardh330

So how does CMC promote composers? Does it sponsor composer for commercial CDs or provide them with ensembles and groups to play their works? Is it in any way beneficial? Also is the Association of Irish Composers (AIC) and the Irish Composers' Collective (ICC) any good?

pconn062

richardh330 wrote: »

So how does CMC promote composers? Does it sponsor composer for commercial CDs or provide them with ensembles and groups to play their works? Is it in any way beneficial? Also is the Association of Irish Composers (AIC) and the Irish Composers' Collective (ICC) any good?

The CMC primarily supports composers by archiving your scores in their library, the scores and any CD's are also available to buy through the website. They also support composers by advertising any upcoming concerts, launches, CD's etc on their website and through social media. So yes, it is very beneficial. They do not provide funding for commercial CD's (although they do release CD's that feature works by multiple Irish composers) and they do not provide ensembles to perform your music. That is up to you.

I don't know much about the AIC but I am a member of the ICC which is a group of young composers who, with funding from the Art's council, hold concerts every month featuring works by it's members. It is an extremely worthwhile group to join and I have had at least three performances in the National Concert Hall thanks to being a member of the ICC.

One thing I want to make clear is that being a composer in Ireland is tough, no one is going to provide you with ensembles or lots of money for commercial CD's, it is really up to you to go out, join groups, meet performers, go to concerts etc and look for your own performances. No one will come to you begging for scores or new works (unfortunately!), it really is a case of you get out of it what you put in to it.

SubBusted

pconn062 wrote: »

They do not provide funding for commercial CD's

Has any contemporary Irish composer actually released a full CD of their own music?

pconn062

SubBusted wrote: »

Has any contemporary Irish composer actually released a full CD of their own music?

Yes, loads have. If you follow this link you can see the full range of CD's available for sale on the CMC website. Many of them are full releases of individual composers works.

http://www.cmc.ie/shop/shop_by_comp.cfm

purebeta

CMC didn't accept me this time ,
really hoping they give some good reasons why when I meet them.

Appart from not entering competitions, particularly because I don't agree with them.

Maybe cause I'm only 23 haha

pconn062

purebeta wrote: »

CMC didn't accept me this time ,
really hoping they give some good reasons why when I meet them.

Appart from not entering competitions, particularly because I don't agree with them.

Maybe cause I'm only 23 haha

Don't be disheartened, you can always apply again. Do you have many works in your portfolio?

purebeta

Yeah I've about 27, but I'll go again once I get definite answers.

SubBusted

pconn062 wrote: »

Don't be disheartened, you can always apply again. Do you have many works in your portfolio?

Don't bother. Why would you want to join those nobodies anyway? Anyone can become a composer without having to join a silly society.

pconn062

purebeta wrote: »

CMC didn't accept me this time ,
really hoping they give some good reasons why when I meet them.

Appart from not entering competitions, particularly because I don't agree with them.

Maybe cause I'm only 23 haha

I'm interested in hearing why you don't agree with competitions? There are usually an important step in a young composers career. I have entered a good few myself and while more often than not it turns out to be unsuccessful, I still found it to be a useful endeavor.

purebeta

Emm, don't think I want to get into it but...I'm not sure if they give a good indication of a works worth.
Calls for scores or concerts are fine where there can be more than one 'winner',
but the idea of a 'best' composition doesn't resonate with me.
Plus judges are incredibly biased even if they don't seem to be.
And it's especially so in Irelands largely conservative scene.
I'm not trying to make enemies, just stating my opinion.
pb~

Undergod

SubBusted wrote: »

Don't bother. Why would you want to join those nobodies anyway? Anyone can become a composer without having to join a silly society.

No one is saying otherwise. Why are you behaving so obnoxiously? Did a composer steal your car or something?

pconn062

purebeta wrote: »

Emm, don't think I want to get into it but...I'm not sure if they give a good indication of a works worth.
Calls for scores or concerts are fine where there can be more than one 'winner',
but the idea of a 'best' composition doesn't resonate with me.
Plus judges are incredibly biased even if they don't seem to be.
And it's especially so in Irelands largely conservative scene.
I'm not trying to make enemies, just stating my opinion.
pb~

I presume you mean biased in terms of style? Most competitions are anonymous, as in there are no names on the scores.
Funny, I wouldn't have regarded Irish composers as being particularly conservative in nature, many of them are heavily influenced by the European modernist movement, particularly the more well known such as Gerald Barry, Ian Wilson, John Buckley etc.

purebeta

Yeah stylistic bias and allegiances. I know this about the pseudonyms, i've entered a few.

That's precisely what I mean, that kind of 'European Modernism' is quite conservative in these times.
Those more well known ones would be conservative in my books.
Music history does not stop at 1945.

pconn062

purebeta wrote: »

Yeah stylistic bias and allegiances. I know this about the pseudonyms, i've entered a few.

That's precisely what I mean, that kind of 'European Modernism' is quite conservative in these times.
Those more well known ones would be conservative in my books.
Music history does not stop at 1945.

Ha, fair enough, I've heard Gerald Barry called a lot of things, but never conservative! Each to their own I suppose.

SubBusted

pconn062 wrote: »

I'm interested in hearing why you don't agree with competitions?

They usually charge an entry fee and the best one rarely wins. Read this: http://ericwhitacre.com/blog/advice-for-the-emerging-composer-competitions