Proof of 'God particle' found

sink

Judgement Day wrote: »

Another intellectual Wiki reader. Nothing you have said has any bearing on the ' 'God Particle' and no need to be so ****ing offensive because somebody holds a different point of view.

Those examples may not have a direct bearing on the Higgs Boson but they are analogous i.e. they too came from undirected research. To put it simply, you ask 'what use is it?', to answer that question we must first answer 'what is it?'; for how can we answer the former without first answering the latter?

delad

So what was there before the big bang? What existed before the universe existed?

Captain Chaos

delad wrote: »

So what was there before the big bang? What existed before the universe existed?

That's like asking you how did you feel before you were born. You can only experience existance from your point of view.

delad

Captain Chaos wrote: »

That's like asking you how did you feel before you were born.

no its not, its like asking how I was born

Scioch

delad wrote: »

So what was there before the big bang? What existed before the universe existed?

A perfectly symmetrical collection of particles with no mass according to Mr Kaku.

Scioch

delad wrote: »

no its not, its like asking how I was born

More like asking what were you before you were born. You were your mother.

Captain Chaos

delad wrote: »

no its not, its like asking how I was born

Think about it a bit longer and deeper.

delad

LordSmeg wrote: »

A perfectly symmetrical collection of particles with no mass according to Mr Kaku.

but how did the particles come into existence?

delad

LordSmeg wrote: »

More like asking what were you before you were born. You were your mother.

and how did my mother come into existence? etc etc

Captain Chaos

delad wrote: »

but how did the particles come into existence?

They just "popped" into existence from a random spark of energy. Thats one of theorys anyway. Nobody really knows. All we do know is that something cannot come from nothing.

Scioch

delad wrote: »

but how did the particles come into existence?

Dont know, they are interwoven into existence itself perhaps. So your possibly only asking how did existence come into existence. Which can be argued to have always existed seeing as if it didnt then existence wouldnt exist.

delad

Captain Chaos wrote: »

They just "popped" into existence from a random spark of energy. Thats one of theorys anyway. Nobody really knows. All we do know is that something cannot come from nothing.

why was there a spark of energy? what or who caused that?

delad

LordSmeg wrote: »

Dont know, they are interwoven into existence itself perhaps. So your possibly only asking how did existence come into existence. Which can be argued to have always existed seeing as if it didnt then existence wouldnt exist.

my head hurts

Captain Chaos

LordSmeg wrote: »

Dont know, they are interwoven into existence itself perhaps. So your possibly only asking how did existence come into existence. Which can be argued to have always existed seeing as if it didnt then existence wouldnt exist.

It's harder for there to be nothing at all rather than something. It's like measuring a particle, because you want to or try to observe or measure it it has to exist somewhere, if you are not looking for it's position or trying to measure it, it can in theory be anywhere. I believe that's part of string theory or quantum physics.

delad

I find it odd that people like Michio Kaku scoff at the thought of a God, yet he believes in the multiverse. Surely one is just as believable as the other.

sink

delad wrote: »

I find it odd that people like Michio Kaku scoff at the thought of a God, yet he believes in the multiverse. Surely one is just as believable as the other.

Not really, we know at least one universe exists, we know no reason why there can't be more. We know of no god, and know of no reason for one.

delad

sink wrote: »

Not really, we know at least one universe exists, we know no reason why there can't be more.

Similarly, we know of no reason why our universe wasn't created by a God.

Scioch

delad wrote: »

my head hurts

Something cant come from nothing. So therefore something has always existed. Your trying to ask where did existence come from. It didnt come from anywhere, it can only be.

Also I think before the universe when whatever was there was in whatever state it probably existed in different dimensions. I'm not well up on string theory and whatnot but I believe I heard the number 12 thrown about. So that matter which had no mass may not have interacted with anything, may not have been subject to time or decay, or change, it could have existed in unimaginable ways across unimaginable planes of existence. Its not as simple as this came from that and that came from that I dont think.

Scioch

delad wrote: »

Similarly, we know of no reason why our universe wasn't created by a God.

We know of know reason why it was either. Outside of time and across other dimensions consciousness may not even be possible. We dont know does not make it a valid conclusion. We dont even have any reason to believe it might be the case seeing as everything we have observed in our universe and everything we have discovered doesnt point us in that direction. Far from it actually..

delad

LordSmeg wrote: »

Something cant come from nothing. So therefore something has always existed. Your trying to ask where did existence come from. It didnt come from anywhere, it can only be.

Also I think before the universe when whatever was there was in whatever state it probably existed in different dimensions. I'm not well up on string theory and whatnot but I believe I heard the number 12 thrown about. So that matter which had no mass may not have interacted with anything, may not have been subject to time or decay, or change, it could have existed in unimaginable ways across unimaginable planes of existence. Its not as simple as this came from that and that came from that I dont think.

I can't get my head around all this. Something can't just exist. There has to be a start point.

If different dimensions and unimaginable planes of existence is possible, then why is the existence of a God so laughable to atheists?

sink

delad wrote: »

Similarly, we know of no reason why our universe wasn't created by a God.

And that's why I'm an agnostic atheist. However one is hypothetical supreme being that we have no knowledge with which is attributed many human traits by bronze age desert tribes and the other is a universe of which we know at least one exists.

delad

LordSmeg wrote: »

We know of know reason why it was either. Outside of time and across other dimensions consciousness may not even be possible. We dont know does not make it a valid conclusion. We dont even have any reason to believe it might be the case seeing as everything we have observed in our universe and everything we have discovered doesnt point us in that direction. Far from it actually..

it doesn't point us in any direction, we don't know sh1t is what I'm basically saying

delad

sink wrote: »

and the other is a universe of which we know at least one exists.

We know it exists, but we don't know how or why, which puts us back at square one

Scioch

delad wrote: »

I can't get my head around all this. Something can't just exist. There has to be a start point.

If you are taking a starting point as an absolute then you are assuming nothing can exist. Why can nothing exist but something cant ?

If different dimensions and unimaginable planes of existence is possible, then why is the existence of a God so laughable to atheists?

Because its quite a big stretch from what we know and understand about our observable universe to a conscious intelligent being purposely creating a universe.

As sink said its farcical to attribute human traits to a being that would exist under those circumstances considering what we are and where we are in the grand scheme of things.

Scioch

delad wrote: »

it doesn't point us in any direction, we don't know sh1t is what I'm basically saying

We know plenty about it, look at the standard model, look at the laws and the patterns we have discovered, look at mathematics. We have accounted for the fundamental building blocks of matter and traced the universe back to its very creation all in contradiction of what we believed to be true about god.

Considering what our view of God was we have been moving increasingly away from that.

delad

LordSmeg wrote: »

If you are taking a starting point as an absolute then you are assuming nothing can exist. Why can nothing exist but something cant ?

Everything in existence so far had an event which caused it to be in existence, therefore I don't believe the universe just existed. I'm not saying there was nothing before something, just that science so far suggests stuff just doesn't exist, it had to be created somehow.

Scioch

delad wrote: »

Everything in existence so far had an event which caused it to be in existence, therefore I don't believe the universe just existed. I'm not saying there was nothing before something, just that science so far suggests stuff just doesn't exist, it had to be created somehow.

The universe didnt just exist it came into existence we have discussed how this may have happened.

You then went on to talk about existence itself and how it all had to start somewhere. If it had to start somewhere then your saying before it started nothing existed. I'm saying there was no before because it makes zero sense to say there was. Its like saying after existence stops.

sink

delad wrote: »

I can't get my head around all this. Something can't just exist. There has to be a start point.

If different dimensions and unimaginable planes of existence is possible, then why is the existence of a God so laughable to atheists?

You're thinking of time as if it were fixed constant and unidirectional. However we know thanks to Einstein's general relativity that time fluctuates throughout the universe according to gravitation and relative velocity, time ticks more slowly for us standing on the surface of the earth than for orbiting satellites. We also know through the quantum mechanics that at the quantum level effects can precede causes.

You're also thinking of nothing as if it were truly nothing, however we know that even in a absolute vacuum without a single atom there is a lot of things happening. Virtual particles pop into existence in pairs for nano seconds before annihilating each other. Some people hypothesize the universe is similar and that all the energy in the actually adds up to zero and that it is just a quantum fluctuation

Another interesting hypothesis is that time as we experience it is just an effect of the second law of thermodynamics and the universe will eventually wind down like a clock until it has reached a maximum state of entropy at which stage there will be no movement of energy of any sort and time itself will cease to exist.

Halloran springs

delad wrote: »

I can't get my head around all this. Something can't just exist. There has to be a start point.

If different dimensions and unimaginable planes of existence is possible, then why is the existence of a God so laughable to atheists?

Not sure if I'm an atheist or agnostic, based on the varying definitions of them but the existence of a "God" or some incomprehensible creator is not "so laughable" to me, however the existence of "God" as described in the bible (and any other religion for that matter) and the fairytales contained within- is completely laughable to me.

delad

LordSmeg wrote: »

The universe didnt just exist it came into existence we have discussed how this may have happened.

No, people have put forward theories not backed up by any evidence about how the universe may have come into existence. Its no different to the theory it was created by a God. Neither are backed up by any scientific evidence.

LordSmeg wrote: »

You then went on to talk about existence itself and how it all had to start somewhere. If it had to start somewhere then your saying before it started nothing existed. I'm saying there was no before because it makes zero sense to say there was. Its like saying after existence stops.

So if you think the universe always existed, without any cause/reason for it to exist, does that not contradict everything we know about science today. It seems like your changing the goalposts to suit your own beliefs.