Beginner Question

Mike87

Blay wrote: »

I doubt his super will see it that way:pac: They'll be interested to hear why a standard 10/22 isn't good enough.

Yep, good point. He will have to explain why he wants a takedown and then if he has plans to make it look like an "assualt rifle" he'll also have to get a restricted licence on top of that.

So yes, I think my point still stands, if he has bad intentions it would be far easier to go down the illegal route.

AncientW

Exactly, if someone would want to commit crime he wouldn't ask for a legal firearm. I don't understand at all why semi-auto rifles like AR-15 are so hard to get - I mean it still shoots bullets like any other gun and it can still hurt anyone the same way as a bolt action or any other gun. And if it would be up to me, I would allow full-auto... carbines? Is that the right word? Why wont they make it so people with 10+ years of experience with firearms could get a license for a full-auto for 50euros give or take. Just set the rifle to 'Safe' put your finger off the trigger and everyone is safe. I hate these laws, it almost seems like they treat you as a junior infant. :mad:

Witcher

AncientW wrote: »

Exactly, if someone would want to commit crime he wouldn't ask for a legal firearm. I don't understand at all why semi-auto rifles like AR-15 are so hard to get - I mean it still shoots bullets like any other gun and it can still hurt anyone the same way as a bolt action or any other gun. And if it would be up to me, I would allow full-auto... carbines? Is that the right word? Why wont they make it so people with 10+ years of experience with firearms could get a license for a full-auto for 50euros give or take. Just set the rifle to 'Safe' put your finger off the trigger and everyone is safe. I hate these laws, it almost seems like they treat you as a junior infant. :mad:

Full auto firearms are outlawed by European law, we couldn't allow them even if we wanted to.

You can get a semi auto centrefire if you have a valid reason for it. But it's highly unlikely you would get one as your first firearm.

Mike87

AncientW wrote: »

I don't understand at all why semi-auto rifles like AR-15 are so hard to get

Well firstly in Ireland you can only have a firearm for two reasons. Hunting or target shooting. And in both those disciplines theres no real need for an AR-15. Hence the reason its so hard to prove you need one. But if you can prove without a shadow of a doubt that you need an AR-15 then you will get one in the morning (providing everything else is in order first).

THe AGS also have to worry about giving you an AR-15, and then you getting robbed of it. Or whos to say in a few years time you wont start going a bit weird in the head and maybe go on a killing spree.

AncientW wrote: »

I mean it still shoots bullets like any other gun and it can still hurt anyone the same way as a bolt action or any other gun.

You keep saying an AR/semi kills just like a bolt action, which is true- but guess which one fires 800 bullets a minute. Which one is designed from the ground up as a combat rifle.

BTW: I get the impression you think all these hoops (clubs/competency course/insurance,secure accomodation etc) and all that money is what you need for a semi-auto. No. Thats how much its going to cost you for any rifle/shotgun/firearm in this country. Like was already said, getting started in shooting isnt cheap.

tac foley

My point, which I think has by now had the ass torn out of it, is me acting as devil's advocate and trying to think as many of your Garda superintendents do - that is to say, with extreme suspicion, as to why anybody would actually PREFER to have a more expensive and readily concealable version of a cheap firearm.

Living, as you do, in a country where the firearms' laws are subject to extreme levels of local interpretation, it seems logical, for a first application, to keep things as simple as possible. Of course, you might opine that I'm over-reacting, but a recent post, resurrected here, reminds us that AGS have a vivid imagination when it comes to firearms law - the seizure of a simple telescopic sight as a 'licensable item' should have made that very clear.

That's all I'm saying.

Incidentally, I have a take-down rifle. It is, as far as the experts know, totally unique, and was made in 1909. It can be seen here, at the bottom of this page -

http://www.rifleman.org.uk/BSA_Model_1.html

tac

Vegeta

Mike87 wrote: »

You keep saying an AR/semi kills just like a bolt action, which is true- but guess which one fires 800 bullets a minute.

800 rounds a minute with a semi auto, someone has a quick trigger finger

BTW: I get the impression you think all these hoops (clubs/competency course/insurance,secure accomodation etc) and all that money is what you need for a semi-auto. No. Thats how much its going to cost you for any rifle/shotgun/firearm in this country. Like was already said, getting started in shooting isnt cheap.

Hunting isn't. Gun Club membership and Insurance 100 euro. Safe, second hand shotgun and license could be picked up for 400 quid.

garv123

tac foley wrote: »

Perhaps I'm making waves here, but I can see, in the climate in which some of you live, that questions might be asked as to why you want to have an easily concealable firearm like this?

tac

Its a .22 with a 18.5" barrel..What's easily concealable about that?

A lot of cz's have a 16" factory barrel..

juice1304

garv123 wrote: »

Its a .22 with a 18.5" barrel..What's easily concealable about that?

A lot of cz's have a 16" factory barrel..

It's the takedown version you can split the rifle in two and put it in any backpack easily.

Mike87

Vegeta wrote: »

800 rounds a minute with a semi auto, someone has a quick trigger finger

Yeh I thought that myself but when I was in the states me and a friend bought an AR and it said in the manual the rate of fire is 800 rounds per minute. Although thats more or less what the rifle is capable of, not necessairly what you are capable of. Similar to those 50 cals hitting center mass on a person at over a mile away, the weapon is up to it- but is the shooter.


EDIT: Just to be clear, it was my friend bought the rifle not me- I just tagged along for the free shooting

Witcher

Put a slide fire stock on it and it's nearly full auto:pac:

tac foley

garv123 wrote: »

Its a .22 with a 18.5" barrel..What's easily concealable about that?

A lot of cz's have a 16" factory barrel..

Please read what the OP wrote in post #24 -

Quote - 'Huh, that's a big pile of money I'll just drop the AR. I'm not that rich. So... what about this gun? People say it's good for beginners http://www.ruger.com/products/1022Takedown/models.html '

The Ruger 10/22 takedown model has a quickly-removable barrel assembly that makes the gun divide into two compact pieces.

To tell the truth I'm not certain whether such a 'concealable' firearm is actually legal in the RoI, let alone available yet. I was in Oregon last month and my local gun store was still awaiting his shipment. I hope that I can be put right, or wrong, as the case may be.

tac

garv123

tac foley wrote: »

Please read what the OP wrote in post #24 -

Quote - 'Huh, that's a big pile of money I'll just drop the AR. I'm not that rich. So... what about this gun? People say it's good for beginners http://www.ruger.com/products/1022Takedown/models.html '

The Ruger 10/22 takedown model has a quickly-removable barrel assembly that makes the gun divide into two compact pieces.

To tell the truth I'm not certain whether such a 'concealable' firearm is actually legal in the RoI, let alone available yet. I was in Oregon last month and my local gun store was still awaiting his shipment. I hope that I can be put right, or wrong, as the case may be.

tac

Ah apologies I didnt realise it broke into 2.

tac foley

garv123 wrote: »

Ah apologies I didnt realise it broke into 2.

That's what 'take-down' means. Have a look at my little rifle in the link that I provided - in that one the whole barrel and action comes out of the stock, but in the Ruger model the barrel comes out of the action.

tac

Sparks

Mind you, going by these definitions, every single ISSF rifle in the country is "concealable" because they are all in effect takedown stocks to one degree or another, whether it's just the buttplate that comes off or whether it's something like the new air rifle stocks:



It's not for concealability; it's because it lets you use a smaller, lighter Peli and pay less excess baggage when going to matches abroad. I would imagine the same is true of the 10/22 (hate that rifle btw, I prefer ones that are accurate when you buy them, not after you've spent two to three times the price of the rifle in aftermarket parts and done the manufacturer's job for them). A concealable firearm, to me at least, means one that is concealed in a usable condition, not one that's basicly in pieces that need to be assembled before you can use it. Otherwise, a bag of spare parts or a lump of iron ore could be concealed firearms

(BTW Mike, there are other reasons for having a firearm past hunting and target shooting, vets have them for humane dispatch, athletics clubs have starter pistols, etc, etc, etc...)

Mike87

Sparks wrote: »

(BTW Mike, there are other reasons for having a firearm past hunting and target shooting, vets have them for humane dispatch, athletics clubs have starter pistols, etc, etc, etc...)

Good point there Sparks Next time I have the dog with the vet I'll have to ask him does he have a pistol Suppose they can probably licence a centerfire pistol if they want can they?

Sparks

Not any more; as I understood it, they normally prefer captive bolt devices, but during the Foot&Mouth outbreak, they used pistols under Garda supervision.

tac foley

Sparks wrote: »

Mind you, going by these definitions, every single ISSF rifle in the country is "concealable" because they are all in effect takedown stocks to one degree or another, whether it's just the buttplate that comes off or whether it's something like the new air rifle stocks:



It's not for concealability; it's because it lets you use a smaller, lighter Peli and pay less excess baggage when going to matches abroad. I would imagine the same is true of the 10/22 (hate that rifle btw, I prefer ones that are accurate when you buy them, not after you've spent two to three times the price of the rifle in aftermarket parts and done the manufacturer's job for them). A concealable firearm, to me at least, means one that is concealed in a usable condition, not one that's basicly in pieces that need to be assembled before you can use it. Otherwise, a bag of spare parts or a lump of iron ore could be concealed firearms

(BTW Mike, there are other reasons for having a firearm past hunting and target shooting, vets have them for humane dispatch, athletics clubs have starter pistols, etc, etc, etc...)

I totally disagree with you, sir. The OP does not appear to be interested in either an ISSF rifle, or taking his firearm abroad. What he IS interested in is getting started in shooting for the very least amount of money necessary.

My point about a gun in the lower price market that is principally designed to be taken to pieces as a matter of convenience to the shooter is that it is not only more expensive than the basic 10/22 carbine [an already compact firearm] but is bound, in the RoI, to engender questions from the PTB.

I'm out.

tac

Sparks

tac foley wrote: »

I totally disagree with you, sir. The OP does not appear to be interested in either an ISSF rifle, or taking his firearm abroad. What he IS interested in is getting started in shooting for the very least amount of money necessary.

My point about a gun in the lower price market that is principally designed to be taken to pieces as a matter of convencience to the shooter is that it is not only more expensive than the basic 10/22 carbine [an already compact firearm] but is bound, in the RoI, to engender questions from the PTB.

I'm out.

tac

And my point, which you seem to have missed as well, is that "takedown" does not mean "concealable", and the AGS have no problem licencing takedown firearms.

Mike87

Sparks wrote: »

And my point, which you seem to have missed as well, is that "takedown" does not mean "concealable", and the AGS have no problem licencing takedown firearms.

I think the point Tac was getting at was that a takedown firearm, although not shootable whilst broken, can still be transported easily without arousing suspicion. And to be fair, although I missed his the point the first time around (sorry Tac ), I think he might be onto something- just because everybody here on boards/shooting knows better doesnt mean the AGS will.

tac foley

Sparks wrote: »

And my point, which you seem to have missed as well, is that "takedown" does not mean "concealable", and the AGS have no problem licencing takedown firearms.

Fine. Let's see it happen, eh?

As has been proven many times on this and other fora, AGS has some rather 'individual lateral thinking' when it comes to the identification of firearms types.

I have yet to see any sign whatsoever of 'joined-up thinking' in Irish firearms law, let alone by those individuals charged with its 'interpretation'.

tac

Vegeta

tac foley wrote: »

Fine. Let's see it happen, eh?

See what, takedown rifles licensed here? Shooting buddy has one (not a 10/22 but a centerfire).

AncientW

tac foley wrote: »

I totally disagree with you, sir. The OP does not appear to be interested in either an ISSF rifle, or taking his firearm abroad. What he IS interested in is getting started in shooting for the very least amount of money necessary.

Exactly, I'm just THINKING about getting started but I'm not in a hurry, and as you said, I'm not interested in taking the firearm abroad or anything like that.

Witcher

Best thing to do is find out where your closest range is and what disciplines they shoot and that should infuence what type of gun you buy.

Sparks

tac foley wrote: »

Fine. Let's see it happen, eh?

Both my rifles (air and .22) qualify as takedown. No problem licencing them.
WTSC's air rifles are half non-takedown, and half the takedown models in the picture above (steyr lg100s). Never a problem licencing them.
In fact, pretty much all of the aluminium-stocked ISSF rifles licenced in Ireland today qualify, and the AGS never had a problem with them.
In other words, we've seen it happen, I'm not making it up off the top of my head.

tac foley

Fine, I hear what you are saying.

Let's see what his particular super thinks.

tac

rowa

Nearly every type of shotgun licenceable here is takedown, all double barrels, semi's/pumps, the only type that can't be are ww.greener martini types afaik.
I've had a takedown rifle , a marlin 39a , big screw head on the side of the action , two seconds with a coin and its in two pieces.