Camelot out earns Frankel

swimming in a sea

So Camelot won the Irish derby taking his winnings to £1.7m and Frankel (Timeforms best rated horse ever) is on £1.6m and is one year older.

I always have trouble figuring this out, people say he'll make a fortune at stud and that's true, Frankel some say will charge 100k to cover a mare, but to get a champion could be 50/1 shot or worse. So your only getting a 20/1 return on your money.

When you think Monterosso a horse who started his career on the all-weather and has now made nearly £5m, others like so you think, goldikova, falbrav, deep impact all have earned multiples of what Frankel will end up with.

It looks a bit like the property bubble, is it built on mainly Arab owners who are prepared to lose millions to have the privilege of finally getting a champion.

barney4001

swimming in a sea wrote: »

So Camelot won the Irish derby taking his winnings to £1.7m and Frankel (Timeforms best rated horse ever) is on £1.6m and is one year older.

I always have trouble figuring this out, people say he'll make a fortune at stud and that's true, Frankel some say will charge 100k to cover a mare, but to get a champion could be 50/1 shot or worse. So your only getting a 20/1 return on your money.

When you think Monterosso a horse who started his career on the all-weather and has now made nearly £5m, others like so you think, goldikova, falbrav, deep impact all have earned multiples of what Frankel will end up with.

It looks a bit like the property bubble, is it built on mainly Arab owners who are prepared to lose millions to have the privilege of finally getting a champion.

they will to and always will

the groutch

the Arab owners won't necessarily lose millions if their "one in 50 chance" champion is retired to stud, and earns them 100k per cover.
it's just one continous cycle

getonmyhorse

I dont understand you're point. Are you saying they should be trying to win the races with more money in the pot for them? You do realise frankels worth about £100 million. You seriously think they give a **** about prize money?

And i would say his stud fee would be more like 300k

Slattsy

I don't get what you're getting at either.


If it helps....





I don't know what a tracker mortgage is.

UrbanSea

getonmyhorse wrote: »

I dont understand you're point. Are you saying they should be trying to win the races with more money in the pot for them? You do realise frankels worth about £100 million. You seriously think they give a **** about prize money?

And i would say his stud fee would be more like 300k

Incorrect,I'd be surprised if his fee starting off was in 6 figures. I'd guess about 60k sterling

frankie123

300K stud fee? LOL

you must be joking, sure he hasnt even run over a mile yet.

you are well wide of the mark quoting 300k, champion horse doesnt make champion sire for one.

sea the stars is only in the region of 85k and his pedigree by cape cross/urban sea (recently deceased) winning 6 g1s and an unprecedented 3 yr old campaign is far more qualified to charge more than frankel. whether frankel is deemed to be worth more is yet to be seen but it wont be remotely close to 300k. 100k would be pushing it.

cheers.

tryfix

UrbanSea wrote: »

Incorrect,I'd be surprised if his fee starting off was in 6 figures. I'd guess about 60k sterling

Juddmonte's top stallion Oasis Dream stands at £85k, Dansili at £75k.

The demand for Frankel in his first season will be incredible, who wouldn't want a part of such a well bred wonder horse. He's out of the champion stallion and a blue hen mare.

They'll have no problem filling his book at £100 k. I reckon that's what they'll pitch him at. Oasis Dream covered 123 mares in 2011, Dansili 120. That's about the size of the books he'll be covering. £100k by 120 mares = £12 million sterling a year.

Sea The Stars covered 140 mares ( 90 of them Gp 1 mares or Gp 1 producing mares ) at €85 k in his first season. That's the kind of interest that Frankel will attract. There'll be breeders beating down the doors to use Frankel in his first season. Sheikh Mohammed will be able to get a double dose of Coolmores finest blood without having to go near them.

Colonel Sanders

I'd have thought somewhere between 80-100k sterling.

Galileo is the hottest stallion in the world at the minute and while his fee is listed as "private" I've seen various reports online saying it's c300k. The Irish Times stated c150k at the weekend but his last published fee was that and his star has done nothing but rise since. His first few sons have made promising starts too (thinking Teofilo & surprise package Sixties Icon)

Can't really see Frankel standing at anywhere near 300k!

Slattsy

One hundred million dollars !!

Wrong thread. Sorry

Colonel Sanders

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

Galileo is the hottest stallion in the world at the minute and while his fee is listed as "private" I've seen various reports online saying it's c300k. The Irish Times stated c150k at the weekend but his last published fee was that and his star has done nothing but rise since. His first few sons have made promising starts too (thinking Teofilo & surprise package Sixties Icon)

Can't really see Frankel standing at anywhere near 300k!

And how the hell could I forget New Approach!

UrbanSea

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

I'd have thought somewhere between 80-100k sterling.

Galileo is the hottest stallion in the world at the minute and while his fee is listed as "private" I've seen various reports online saying it's c300k. The Irish Times stated c150k at the weekend but his last published fee was that and his star has done nothing but rise since. His first few sons have made promising starts too (thinking Teofilo & surprise package Sixties Icon)

Can't really see Frankel standing at anywhere near 300k!

They told us down at Coolmore he was 300 grand. Montjeu was either 100 or 150

tryfix

UrbanSea wrote: »

They told us down at Coolmore he was 300 grand. Montjeu was either 100 or 150

He covered 214 mares in 2011, that's up to €64.2 million in possible stud fees in a single year.

UrbanSea

Where'd you get that figure? I can't remember how many he said he'd be covering, but how many of those would have been external fillies

finbarrk

I would guess that Frankel will stand for £70-80k.

Colonel Sanders

I'd assume Coolmore under their various banners would send him a very large number of mares.

Then you'd have foal shares etc (I remember reading on Betfair that Coolmore would give nominations for Galileo & Montjeu for free for certain mares. In exchange they got a 50% share in the resulting foal)

tryfix

UrbanSea wrote: »

Where'd you get that figure? I can't remember how many he said he'd be covering, but how many of those would have been external fillies

I've no idea how they break down, but this is a very reputable source.

Topping the Flat charts for the number of mares covered in 2011 is the champion sire Galileo on 214, the only one to break the 200-barrier,

I don't believe that they get €300k a pop for Galileo, there's the "fee" and what's actually paid. Colonel Sanders #16 gives a good description of how things really work.

http://www.ownerbreeder.co.uk/2011/12/many-happy-returns-for-selected-stallion-farms/

meriwether

tryfix wrote: »

I've no idea how they break down, but this is a very reputable source.



I don't believe that they get €300k a pop for Galileo, there's the "fee" and what's actually paid. Colonel Sanders #16 gives a good description of how things really work.

http://www.ownerbreeder.co.uk/2011/12/many-happy-returns-for-selected-stallion-farms/

Galileo's fee is not listed, by appointment, or something.

Its estimated to be on average €150k a shot, but I presume this is open to certain negotiation.

meriwether

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

I'd assume Coolmore under their various banners would send him a very large number of mares.

Then you'd have foal shares etc (I remember reading on Betfair that Coolmore would give nominations for Galileo & Montjeu for free for certain mares. In exchange they got a 50% share in the resulting foal)

Do you have any examples of horses that raced which were 50% owned by Coolmore?

I can't think of any that weren't trained by Aidan and 100% owned by Magner/Tabor/Smith, apart from horses they bought later in life (Hurricane Fly, So You Think, Canford Cliffs).

meriwether

There's a listing of Stallion fees in the Irish Field.

The last time I bought it, the dearest was Storm Cat at $300k.

Colonel Sanders

None I can think of off the top of my head. But you often see horse that raced in Coolmore colours at sales and Coolmore are not the vendor & sometimes are either the buyer or under bidder

I'll try dig up that thread next time I browsing the Betfair forum

UrbanSea

meriwether wrote: »

There's a listing of Stallion fees in the Irish Field.

The last time I bought it, the dearest was Storm Cat at $300k.

I found a good American site a while ago with a list of sire prices but can't find it now.
Galileo is 300k euro not 150. Storm Cat stood at 500k dollars for many years but 300 his last. Kingmambo was 300. Darley aren't great over here but doing very well in America, Bernardini is 150k and only a 9 year old, Street Cry is the same price, Medaglia D'oro also in 3 figures at 100k.

Other big price ones include Danehill whose last published fee was 75,000 punts two years before his death, Giant's Causeway stood as high as 300,000 dollars or 100,000 punts :eek: in 2001.Mr Prospector was huge at 150,000 for mid nineties. Not sure how true it is but wiki have Northern Dancer down as covering ten mares in one year in the 80's at a million dollars a pop

UrbanSea

Here's a good site lads if you want to see sales. I think they're American only, though could be wrong.


http://www.equineline.com/Free-Auction-Results.cfm?upsellReferenceNumber=&upsellHorseName=&upsellBreedType=&upsellHorseType=&upsellYOB=&lookupAuctionResults=true&tempHorseType=&tempSale=ALL&tempYear=2012&search_type=SIRE&reference_number=7408023&horse_name=Henrythenavigator&horse_type=Y&year=2012&sale=ALL&consignor_id=&consignor_name=&buyer_id=&buyer_name=&price_range_low=&price_range_high=&submitImage.x=38&submitImage.y=4&availableConsignors=&availableBuyers=

getonmyhorse

frankie123 wrote: »

300K stud fee? LOL

you must be joking, sure he hasnt even run over a mile yet.

you are well wide of the mark quoting 300k, champion horse doesnt make champion sire for one.

sea the stars is only in the region of 85k and his pedigree by cape cross/urban sea (recently deceased) winning 6 g1s and an unprecedented 3 yr old campaign is far more qualified to charge more than frankel. whether frankel is deemed to be worth more is yet to be seen but it wont be remotely close to 300k. 100k would be pushing it.

cheers.

This is the stupidest thing ive ever read.

Frankel is the greatest of all time, of all time. Maybe 300k was being a bit ott, but they will milk it for the first two years. 200k at least.

Nulty

getonmyhorse wrote: »

This is the stupidest thing ive ever read.

Frankel is the greatest of all time, of all time. Maybe 300k was being a bit ott, but they will milk it for the first two years. 200k at least.

Whether or not this is actually true, Timeform say it is and so that is another angle to argue why he would be more than Sea The Stars. Frankel is by Galileo too, could be another Galileo.

Frankel will start bigger than Sea The Stars IMO.

I'd say some will pay 150k

Colonel Sanders

Urban, Northern Dancer is well before my time but have read reports of nominations changing hands for that type of cash

Think stallion books were in the 40s & 50s back then, not the huge numbers they cover these days

UrbanSea

getonmyhorse wrote: »

frankie123 wrote: »

300K stud fee? LOL

you must be joking, sure he hasnt even run over a mile yet.

you are well wide of the mark quoting 300k, champion horse doesnt make champion sire for one.

sea the stars is only in the region of 85k and his pedigree by cape cross/urban sea (recently deceased) winning 6 g1s and an unprecedented 3 yr old campaign is far more qualified to charge more than frankel. whether frankel is deemed to be worth more is yet to be seen but it wont be remotely close to 300k. 100k would be pushing it.

cheers.

This is the stupidest thing ive ever read.

Frankel is the greatest of all time, of all time. Maybe 300k was being a bit ott, but they will milk it for the first two years. 200k at least.

Are you well?? 200k? You do realize that Sea the Stars comes from the best family in racing,no exceptions. And saying that was the stupidest thing you ever read was either quite the hyperbole or quite the ignorant statement

UrbanSea

Nulty wrote: »

getonmyhorse wrote: »

This is the stupidest thing ive ever read.

Frankel is the greatest of all time, of all time. Maybe 300k was being a bit ott, but they will milk it for the first two years. 200k at least.

Whether or not this is actually true, Timeform say it is and so that is another angle to argue why he would be more than Sea The Stars. Frankel is by Galileo too, could be another Galileo.

Frankel will start bigger than Sea The Stars IMO.

I'd say some will pay 150k

I disagree. Naturally a horses ability factors into the stud fee but everyone knows a top horse does not make a top stallion. I'd rather chance Sea the Stars over Frankel any day at stud. Neither will have any excuses at stud they'll be having the finest of mares between them

UrbanSea

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

Urban, Northern Dancer is well before my time but have read reports of nominations changing hands for that type of cash

Think stallion books were in the 40s & 50s back then, not the huge numbers they cover these days

That's quite the amount of $$$$$$$$$

Slattsy

Probably the most pointless thread I've read.

swimming in a sea

Slattsy wrote: »

Probably the most pointless thread I've read.

and you've voiced the most pointless statement of the thread, well done

Slattsy

swimming in a sea wrote: »

Slattsy wrote: »

Probably the most pointless thread I've read.

and you've voiced the most pointless statement of the thread, well done

Most posts have been pointless because they're all idle speculation.

Why not start a thread on what colour boxers Henry Cecil is wearing today, I'll guess green.

swimming in a sea

Slattsy wrote: »

Most posts have been pointless because they're all idle speculation.

Why not start a thread on what colour boxers Henry Cecil is wearing today, I'll guess green.

No that's for the boxing forum,

I started the tread looking for peoples opinion on something, I was not expecting to get facts unless John Magnier or Khalid Abdullah are members of boards.

Slattsy

swimming in a sea wrote: »

Slattsy wrote: »

Most posts have been pointless because they're all idle speculation.

Why not start a thread on what colour boxers Henry Cecil is wearing today, I'll guess green.

No that's for the boxing forum,

I started the tread looking for peoples opinion on something, I was not expecting to get facts unless John Magnier or Khalid Abdullah are members of boards.

The opening post was fine, it was about earnings to date, and I wasn't having a pop at that, but people guessing figures is simply pointless and stupid.

Hypothetical arguments over something most people haven't a scooby doo about is plain dumb.

Colonel Sanders

Must admit I find it very strange that someone would continue to read and indeed post in what they consider the most pointless thread ever.

UrbanSea

Slattsy wrote: »

swimming in a sea wrote: »

Slattsy wrote: »

Probably the most pointless thread I've read.

and you've voiced the most pointless statement of the thread, well done

Most posts have been pointless because they're all idle speculation.

Why not start a thread on what colour boxers Henry Cecil is wearing today, I'll guess green.

Who will win the Coral Eclipse? Speculation. Best horse ever? Opinion.
This thread is no different. People are discussing what they think his stud fee will be, based on existing fees so it isn't total speculation. Of you don't want to contribute then you don't have to funnily enough.

Backstreet Moyes

getonmyhorse wrote: »

This is the stupidest thing ive ever read.

Frankel is the greatest of all time, of all time. Maybe 300k was being a bit ott, but they will milk it for the first two years. 200k at least.

Its all about opinions but until he wins over 1m2f and 1m4f he wont be the greatest of all time imo. Best miler yes but best ever is Sea the Stars.

Also PP were last week offering Evs on his stud fees being over 150k. So should be handy money if you think that. Not sure if they are still doing betting on it.

Nulty

It's called deduction...not guessing

Guessing is "I'm thinking of a number between 1 and a million, try guess what it is."

Colonel Sanders

meriwether wrote: »

Do you have any examples of horses that raced which were 50% owned by Coolmore?

I can't think of any that weren't trained by Aidan and 100% owned by Magner/Tabor/Smith, apart from horses they bought later in life (Hurricane Fly, So You Think, Canford Cliffs).

Even though this thread from the Betfair forum is about Cacique there is a bit of talk about Galileo, his fee and foal shares

hucklebuck

getonmyhorse wrote: »

This is the stupidest thing ive ever read.

Frankel is the greatest of all time, of all time. Maybe 300k was being a bit ott, but they will milk it for the first two years. 200k at least.

This is very stupid, not a chance that he will start near that maybe 100k, Gallileo is 300k as he is proven. For me Sea The Stars is a better horse than Frankel and he started at 85k

Northern Dancer was $1M a cover towards the end, last three years or so, now apply 3% to allow for inflation per year for 25 years and compare his fee to Gallileo :eek:

Don't forget a Northern Dancer yearling(Snaafi Dancer) went for $10.2M in 1983

getonmyhorse

hucklebuck wrote: »

This is very stupid, not a chance that he will start near that maybe 100k, Gallileo is 300k as he is proven. For me Sea The Stars is a better horse than Frankel and he started at 85k

Northern Dancer was $1M a cover towards the end, last three years or so, now apply 3% to allow for inflation per year for 15 years and compare his fee to Gallileo :eek:

Don't forget a Northern Dancer yearling(Snaafi Dancer) went for $10.2M in 1983

I'll never be listening to your opinion on anything ever again! FFS

getonmyhorse

I wont sleep tonight, the man thinks see the stars was better than frankel!

hucklebuck

getonmyhorse wrote: »

I wont sleep tonight, the man thinks see the stars was better than frankel!

You are clearly trolling, not sure how you can compare the two horses when you don't even know how Sea The Stars spells his name.

getonmyhorse

hucklebuck wrote: »

You are clearly trolling, not sure how you can compare the two horses when you don't even know how Sea The Stars spells his name.

Sorry, my typo means i cant compare the two!
How anyone could ever argue that any horse is better than frankel is beyond me! I think you are the one who is trolling. How could you possibly justify saying sea the stars was better than frankel?
Hes the greatest of all time, and whilst sea the stars was a superstar in his own right frankel would beat him on the bridle

UrbanSea

getonmyhorse wrote: »

hucklebuck wrote: »

You are clearly trolling, not sure how you can compare the two horses when you don't even know how Sea The Stars spells his name.

Sorry, my typo means i cant compare the two!
How anyone could ever argue that any horse is better than frankel is beyond me! I think you are the one who is trolling. How could you possibly justify saying sea the stars was better than frankel?
Hes the greatest of all time, and whilst sea the stars was a superstar in his own right frankel would beat him on the bridle

Speculation. Frankel is the best miler of all time. Sea the stars' versatility and sheer brilliance would make me rank him ahead of Frankel. 6 group 1s in 6 months from a mile to a mile an a half is spectacular, even more so given the passage he had in the arc and that it was against older horses

hucklebuck

getonmyhorse wrote: »

Sorry, my typo means i cant compare the two!

It begs the question if you were watching racing when he ran or if you have even searched to watch his replays.

getonmyhorse wrote: »

How anyone could ever argue that any horse is better than frankel is beyond me!

I think you are the one who is trolling. How could you possibly justify saying sea the stars was better than frankel?

Very easily, for me Frankel has not done enough on the track to earn that tag and has always ran in his comfort zone, Sea The Stars won from 7f to 1m4f in three different countries and all as a three year old.

If he is so good why has Cecil always ran him so close to home and over 7f and 1 mile. If he was that brilliant why would they not race Black Caviar, we will see if Camelot runs over 1m2 will they step Frankel up to race him.

Frankel is a very very good horse but Timeform have over reacted with rating him best of all time. Timeform have got carried away with his rating in the same manner as Harbinger, both horses are English, trained by Sirs and owned by Abdullah (who has done loads for English racing)

getonmyhorse wrote: »

Hes the greatest of all time, and whilst sea the stars was a superstar in his own right frankel would beat him on the bridle

Absolute rubbish. They both won the Guineas on GF ground:

Frankel won it in a time of 1:37:30
Sea The Stars won it in 1:35:88 after an interrupted preparation due to a virus. Sea The Stars was better over further but still ran quicker than Frankel over a mile with track and ground being equal.

By the way Mick Kinnane always says Sea The Stars ran within himself and never felt to be doing more than 85% of his ability.

To clarify I am not running Frankel down I think he is a very very good horse but the fact he has stuck to one distance and always been on the doorstep of his yard leaves a question mark over his greatness.

ArmaniJeanss

£125,000 http://www.juddmonte.com/news/2012/141112JuddmonteFees2013.aspx

hucklebuck

Lol on getonmyhorse, even reducing his guess by 100,000 he was still 75,000 out.

I'll never listen to him again

UrbanSea

What a crazy price

Colonel Sanders

Saucy fee but not hugely surprising (think I'd predicted 100k)

I suppose they could probably fill his book at almost any fee

UrbanSea

But how many of those will be external mares. I think Galileo only covered about 30 last year