Employer not giving annual leaves

mumairsharif

I'm a HS* employee on one year contract.
I still have 7 days of annual leaves left with 5 days to end of contract. My supervisor agreed with that I'll take 5 days of these annual leaves at the very last week. I've written evidence of this as well (through an email of one one my colleague who arranged the rota). This email was send to my supervisor as well & he agreed to it.
Now my supervisor is saying that he never agreed to this annual leaves & I've to stay & work.
Does my supervisor has a legal ground to stand?
I believe that annual leaves is my right & it is emplyers responsibility to give me my right.
I've already spoken to the hospital manager, who is saying that my supervisor is right is stopping me as there are other people away at the same time. My supervisor has no problem with their leaves.

What should I do?

mumairsharif

I've also spoken to one of the colleague of the supervisor & he is of the view is that the annual leaves are at employer discretion & if necessary the employer can stop people from going to the annual leaves.
Hospital manger has informally told me that one of the options in this case is to give me extra pay although he hasn't given me this offer in writing when I request that.

Can an emplyer stop employee from going I annual leave & offer him pay instead?
Is that legal in Ireland?

christmas2012

If you have written evidence you can have this as a back up,i would say challenge it,he has verbally informed you,and written it down,its all you need really.

PucaMama

paying you for the extra days is normal i think.

IMightKnow

Yeah I think what usually happens in this case is if your contract ends and you have some leave days left, they just pay you for them.

So there may be no issue here if you're prepared to just work next week and get 7 days extra pay?

Id say this is more something to discuss with Human Resources though

mumairsharif

christmas2012 wrote: »

If you have written evidence you can have this as a back up,i would say challenge it,he has verbally informed you,and written it down,its all you need really.

Didn't get your point?
Whom should I challenge?
I have already spoken to my supervisor & the his manger.

I through lays though that these leaves are my legal right.

Also as told before I've written evidence that he agreed to it in May in the firm if email that was sent to him by a person who usually organised the leaves.

mumairsharif

IMightKnow wrote: »

Yeah I think what usually happens in this case is if your contract ends and you have some leave days left, they just pay you for them.

So there may be no issue here if you're prepared to just work next week and get 7 days extra pay?

Id say this is more something to discuss with Human Resources though

I've disecussed this with human resources & they are telling the same story.

mumairsharif

But what if I don't want to take the pay & want to take my holidays?

PucaMama

mumairsharif wrote: »

But what if I don't want to take the pay & want to take my holidays?

if the days off arent available i dont think you have the option. why not just take the extra money?

mumairsharif

There are still 5 days available & I want annual leaves, not the money.
I can earn more money by doing locus if I want to work.

mumairsharif

I want to complain about my employer, but not sure what is the right place to do so?

dudara

You are entitled to annual leave, but your employer can choose when you take annual leave. If they have other people on leave, then they may not be able to fulfill your request for annual leave.

If you can't take the annual leave, then you should be compensated for it by being paid an additional amount.

Thoie

Talk to HR again, with a copy of the email printed out. Tell them you have plans for that time that you cannot change, and that you made those plans based on the fact that your leave was approved in May.

Ask them what they propose, and point out it is not your fault that they gave permission to too many people at one time. Don't shout, or threaten, or get angry and don't say too much. Just explain that you have plans (which are none of their business), and ask what they intend to do, then ask for that in writing.

If you're in the HSE, is there an active union in your hospital? Are you a member? Can you talk to your union representative?

PucaMama

dudara wrote: »

You are entitled to annual leave, but your employer can choose when you take annual leave. If they have other people on leave, then they may not be able to fulfill your request for annual leave.

If you can't take the annual leave, then you should be compensated for it by being paid an additional amount.

this.

mumairsharif

Thoie wrote: »

Talk to HR again, with a copy of the email printed out. Tell them you have plans for that time that you cannot change, and that you made those plans based on the fact that your leave was approved in May.

Ask them what they propose, and point out it is not your fault that they gave permission to too many people at one time. Don't shout, or threaten, or get angry and don't say too much. Just explain that you have plans (which are none of their business), and ask what they intend to do, then ask for that in writing.

If you're in the HSE, is there an active union in your hospital? Are you a member? Can you talk to your union representative?

I've done all that & spoken to all the persons in the hospital that I can.
They have seen the email & agreed to my opinion in private. The only person that is not agreeing is my supervisor.
There is adequate cover available for me, but he has told that that there might not be adequate cover available for the junior staff that is going on holidays at the same time. This claim is also untrue because I've worked with the less than the cover the will be available next week.

I can feel injustice.

What will happen if I go on leaves. My point is that these are approved already in May.

Irish_Elect_Eng

If you just take the holiday anyway then that is the the same as quitting without notice. You will not then be paid for the last week, but you will get paif for any outstanding holidays.

(But you will have burned your bridges with this employer and you can probably kiss good bye any chance of being rehired by the HSE in future.)

Just take it and chalk it up to experience.

Cuddlesworth

mumairsharif wrote: »

I'm a HSE employee on one year contract.
I still have 7 days of annual leaves left with 5 days to end of contract. My supervisor agreed with that I'll take 5 days of these annual leaves at the very last week

Is this not the most important part. If you work for a year don't you have to be allowed take your holidays at some point during that year at the employers discretion. For his six months, he is being told that he is not allowed take his statutory holidays during the term of his contract.

Is that not illegal?

PucaMama

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

mumairsharif wrote: »

I'm a HSE employee on one year contract.
I still have 7 days of annual leaves left with 5 days to end of contract. My supervisor agreed with that I'll take 5 days of these annual leaves at the very last week

Is this not the most important part. If you work for a year don't you have to be allowed take your holidays at some point during that year at the employers discretion. For his six months, he is being told that he is not allowed take his statutory holidays during the term of his contract.

Is that not illegal?

No when I was let go I had 2 days leave left. I just got extra pay.

GOODME

If you really need to take the 5 days off before you leave, make sure you show them the agreement that your supervisor agreed to. even if he just replied saying OK ot will do.

Then ask them when did the other staff request their holidays and when they were approved.

I have noticed that many employers esp those supervisors like to play with people especially when they think you don't know your rights.

As they have suggested tell them you had a plan for the 5 days, I just hope you did not talk too much to other staff telling them the plans for the 5 days as there is too much gossip in work places.

There are personal issues or plans are best kept to yourself than to utter a word to another staff.

That is why it is not good to be soft to these supervisors, most are wicked they will sit down ask your personal issue pretend like they are whatever they pretend but when they want to twist you around you will know who they really are.

problem is other managers etc. they will listen to your supervisor, and just know that they know they don't need you any more so you are not worth a thing to them as you will be gone soon.

I just hope you really have planned something for those days then it is worth challenging them, if not just relax finish and remind them that you will be waiting for the pay. If you are starting a job somewhere else just take this as a lesson. Next time get everything documents if there is no electronic system to prove vacation request and approval.

Good luck!

mumairsharif

GOODME wrote: »

If you really need to take the 5 days off before you leave, make sure you show them the agreement that your supervisor agreed to. even if he just replied saying OK ot will do.

Then ask them when did the other staff request their holidays and when they were approved.

I have noticed that many employers esp those supervisors like to play with people especially when they think you don't know your rights.

As they have suggested tell them you had a plan for the 5 days, I just hope you did not talk too much to other staff telling them the plans for the 5 days as there is too much gossip in work places.

There are personal issues or plans are best kept to yourself than to utter a word to another staff.

That is why it is not good to be soft to these supervisors, most are wicked they will sit down ask your personal issue pretend like they are whatever they pretend but when they want to twist you around you will know who they really are.

problem is other managers etc. they will listen to your supervisor, and just know that they know they don't need you any more so you are not worth a thing to them as you will be gone soon.

I just hope you really have planned something for those days then it is worth challenging them, if not just relax finish and remind them that you will be waiting for the pay. If you are starting a job somewhere else just take this as a lesson. Next time get everything documents if there is no electronic system to prove vacation request and approval.

Good luck!

The real problem is that I have all the written evidence that this leave was requested on 2nd May & approved on 18th May & still he is not willing.
The supervisor & manager both are saying that they are right in stopping me.

fasttalkerchat

mumairsharif wrote: »

The real problem is that I have all the written evidence that this leave was requested on 2nd May & approved on 18th May & still he is not willing.
The supervisor & manager both are saying that they are right in stopping me.

Lads would I be right in saying that once its agreed that's it? He can head off and nothing can be done about it legally. Just you give the supervisor a headache.

mumairsharif

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Lads would I be right in saying that once its agreed that's it? He can head off and nothing can be done about it legally. Just you give the supervisor a headache.

The problem in my organisation there is an additional form the supervisor has to sign. So although I've a written email saying he agreed, he never signed the form.
But my point is that he is giving the leaves to other peoples (junior staff) & saying that I've to stay to cover the junior staff despite of the fact the adequate cover available for my leaves.
My point is that he should have been stopping the junior staff is he has a problem.
Is this favouritism?

Sulla Felix

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

mumairsharif wrote: »

The real problem is that I have all the written evidence that this leave was requested on 2nd May & approved on 18th May & still he is not willing.
The supervisor & manager both are saying that they are right in stopping me.

Lads would I be right in saying that once its agreed that's it? He can head off and nothing can be done about it legally. Just you give the supervisor a headache.

No you're not. Previously agreed annual leave can be cancelled without prejudice or compensation within certain limits.

mumairsharif

Sulla Felix wrote: »

No you're not. Previously agreed annual leave can be cancelled without prejudice or compensation within certain limits.

What are these limits?

Sulla Felix

mumairsharif wrote: »

Sulla Felix wrote: »

No you're not. Previously agreed annual leave can be cancelled without prejudice or compensation within certain limits.

What are these limits?

Specifics would be in the organization of working time act.

mumairsharif

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Specifics would be in the organization of working time act.

U probably won't believe me, but I worked more than 250 hours during the last 4 weeks to cover for the people's who were away.
That really hurts.

fasttalkerchat

Sulla Felix wrote: »

No you're not. Previously agreed annual leave can be cancelled without prejudice or compensation within certain limits.

Cheers. Wasn't sure about legislation as it is included in company rules.

Thoie

mumairsharif wrote: »

The real problem is that I have all the written evidence that this leave was requested on 2nd May & approved on 18th May & still he is not willing.
The supervisor & manager both are saying that they are right in stopping me.

Feck the manager and supervisor - is there not a HR department and a union?

The basic question comes down to whether or not you'd like another contract with them or not. As it's the HSE, I presume that a lot of the work you're qualified for is in their domain, so you don't want to shoot yourself in the foot here.

How much do you want this time off - do you want the time off in preference to getting holiday pay instead?

I really think you need to step over the supervisor and manager and bring this to the attention of the HR department. Point out that it is unreasonable that your supervisor expects you to cancel your holidays because of her poor scheduling, and ask for details of the formal complaints procedure.

You can also try talking to NERA: http://www.employmentrights.ie/en/informationforemployees/howdoigetmyrights/

Thoie

mumairsharif wrote: »

U probably won't believe me, but I worked more than 250 hours during the last 4 weeks to cover for the people's who were away.
That really hurts.

It sucks, but if you had been working "normal" hours for months before that, it's allowable. However there must be at least 11 hours between your shifts, and you must get 35 consecutive rest hours in a 7 day period.

mumairsharif

Thoie wrote: »

Feck the manager and supervisor - is there not a HR department and a union?

The basic question comes down to whether or not you'd like another contract with them or not. As it's the HSE, I presume that a lot of the work you're qualified for is in their domain, so you don't want to shoot yourself in the foot here.

How much do you want this time off - do you want the time off in preference to getting holiday pay instead?

I really think you need to step over the supervisor and manager and bring this to the attention of the HR department. Point out that it is unreasonable that your supervisor expects you to cancel your holidays because of her poor scheduling, and ask for details of the formal complaints procedure.


You can also try talking to NERA: http://www.employmentrights.ie/en/informationforemployees/howdoigetmyrights/

I've spoken to hospital manager, the biggest manager U can get & he is saying the same.

What else I should do?

mumairsharif

Thoie wrote: »

It sucks, but if you had been working "normal" hours for months before that, it's allowable. However there must be at least 11 hours between your shifts, and you must get 35 consecutive rest hours in a 7 day period.

Normal hours?
Do U believe working 70 hours a week is normal?
I don't even remember what the EWTD is.

Thoie

mumairsharif wrote: »

I've spoken to hospital manager, the biggest manager U can get & he is saying the same.

What else I should do?

I'm trying to help. The hospital manager should be familiar with HR policy and the law, but you can't guarantee that. Regardless of whether he should or not, the hospital manager probably doesn't give two hoots about shift schedules. That's why I keep asking about HR - is there a dedicated HR person?

If not, then phoning NERA is probably the next step, but if there's a HR department, talk to them first. Remember that HR's primary goal is always to prevent the company from being sued.

mumairsharif

Thoie wrote: »

I'm trying to help. The hospital manager should be familiar with HR policy and the law, but you can't guarantee that. Regardless of whether he should or not, the hospital manager probably doesn't give two hoots about shift schedules. That's why I keep asking about HR - is there a dedicated HR person?

If not, then phoning NERA is probably the next step, but if there's a HR department, talk to them first. Remember that HR's primary goal is always to prevent the company from being sued.

Really thankful for your advice.
The manager I'm talking about is the HR manager. I'm pretty sure he is aware of all the rules & regulations.

What exactly the NERA can do?

Mrs OBumble

OP, from your last post, and the earlier one about being able to locum, I'm assuming you're a doctor.

So I'm moving this to the health sciences forum, hopefully the folks there can give you more specific advice about the employment and ethical / professional aspects should you decide to just take the leave anyway.

opinion guy

mumairsharif wrote: »

I've spoken to hospital manager, the biggest manager U can get & he is saying the same.

What else I should do?

Remind them that they are contractually bound to hire a locum to cover holidays.

Failing that get a lawyer involved. Lawyers can get things done.
Especially when you have an email as proof

Marcusm

mumairsharif wrote: »

The problem in my organisation there is an additional form the supervisor has to sign. So although I've a written email saying he agreed, he never signed the form.
But my point is that he is giving the leaves to other peoples (junior staff) & saying that I've to stay to cover the junior staff despite of the fact the adequate cover available for my leaves.
My point is that he should have been stopping the junior staff is he has a problem.
Is this favouritism?

It might be favouritism but that itself is not always a restriction of your rights (it would have to based on some specified grounds, race, religion etc). If you didn't get the form signed, presumably the leave was not formally recorded and you are still included in the roster? If this is the case, I think you have at least some responsibility with respect to the matter. It's hardly worth trying to sort this out in May and not following through to have it formally recorded. If you are only raising it now, can you establish that you need the leave (i.e. holiday booked) or can you not take some responsibility for failing to ensure that the form was signed. In making this comment, I am assuming, based on your comments, that you are aware of the requirement that the form be submitted and the roster updated.

mumairsharif

Marcusm wrote: »

It might be favouritism but that itself is not always a restriction of your rights (it would have to based on some specified grounds, race, religion etc). If you didn't get the form signed, presumably the leave was not formally recorded and you are still included in the roster? If this is the case, I think you have at least some responsibility with respect to the matter. It's hardly worth trying to sort this out in May and not following through to have it formally recorded. If you are only raising it now, can you establish that you need the leave (i.e. holiday booked) or can you not take some responsibility for failing to ensure that the form was signed. In making this comment, I am assuming, based on your comments, that you are aware of the requirement that the form be submitted and the roster updated.

My name is not on any roster & my leaves were only blocked to make sure other can take their leaves. There is adequate cover & I can't see any other valid reason.

dissed doc

Irish_Elect_Eng wrote: »

If you just take the holiday anyway then that is the the same as quitting without notice. You will not then be paid for the last week, but you will get paif for any outstanding holidays.

(But you will have burned your bridges with this employer and you can probably kiss good bye any chance of being rehired by the HSE in future.)

Just take it and chalk it up to experience.

Strange comment. The employer has burned the bridges not him. If the leave is approved in May it's approved.

It is not your job to make sure there is cover or that adequate staffing is present. That is the employer.

If they wish to rescind your leave then sue them. What has happened is you are being decided as the soft touch who will roll over.

1. Breach of employment contract and unreasonable requests being made if you
2. You are expected to provide cover for others
3. The only way you should be present during your approved leave is uf you are doing your own locum.

They messed up, not you. If it's approved on paper, go.

Sad ti see the last paragraph above by Irish Exec End. No one gives damn if you stayed or left, there are no bridges to burn and not respecting yourself will do much more damage to your life and career than offending someone who does't give a damn two weeks later.

Traumadoc

Tricky one as I presume the problem is that all the docs on the service want to take leave at the same time.

You really need to get legal/union advice.

I would ask them to provide it in writing that they are refusing to grant leave.