Pass lists?

SB69

Does anyone know what the Pass lists are? Do we get one in every module?

The SU posted something about them on facebook but I don't know what they are. The SU said we can access them tomorrow via our portal pages but there are no links for the pass lists there, so does a link appear or what?

Konata

Passlists go up here: https://www.dcu.ie/results/passlist.php3

It's not per module, it's just the overall list in the class from first to last done by student numbers.

Cardor

Has anyone's classlists been put up yet?

Konata

Cardor wrote: »

Has anyone's classlists been put up yet?

If you click the link in my post above you can see that none of them are available yet. Give it a few days.

Cardor

I wrote to the SU because they were the only group of people that have so far said anything in regards to the pass lists. They said that the registry was in contact with them and that the pass lists were gradually being made available throughout today, so that's why I want to know whether people have received them yet, through their portal pages. My class has not and I was wondering was there going to be a specific time or not, like yesterday, but nobody seems to know.

Konata

Cardor wrote: »

I wrote to the SU because they were the only group of people that have so far said anything in regards to the pass lists. They said that the registry was in contact with them and that the pass lists were gradually being made available throughout today, so that's why I want to know whether people have received them yet, through their portal pages. My class has not and I was wondering was there going to be a specific time or not, like yesterday, but nobody seems to know.

Out of curiosity, how come you're so desperate to see them? You already know your own overall grade - does it really matter what everyone else got?

Cardor

Konata wrote: »

Out of curiosity, how come you're so desperate to see them? You already know your own overall grade - does it really matter what everyone else got?

Because I want to see my rank in the class!

And you can't see everyone else's results, so I've been told, due to the fact only student numbers appear, so how am I supposed to know which result belongs to whom?!

I think it's a bit hypocritical to basically judge me for my curiosity, when you opened your question with "out of curiosity". My curiousness is the exact same as yours, so does it really matter, to you, whether I want to find out my class rank or not?

Konata

Cardor wrote: »

Because I want to see my rank in the class!

And you can't see everyone else's results, so I've been told, due to the fact only student numbers appear, so how am I supposed to know which result belongs to whom?!

I think it's a bit hypocritical to basically judge me for my curiosity, when you opened your question with "out of curiosity". My curiousness is the exact same as yours, so does it really matter, to you, whether I want to find out my class rank or not?

Seeing your rank in the class is essentially seeing how everyone else did. That's what I meant anyway - you can see how many people did better than you and how many people did worse.

I'm not judging you at all, I was merely enquiring as to why you seemed so eager to see the pass lists. To me, they aren't a huge deal - I got my own results and I'm happy with them as an individual. I asked my question as I was interested in learning about why other people felt pass lists were so important. You are indeed perfectly entitled to your own curiousness, and no, it does not matter to me in the least, but I am always open to learning about things like this. Perhaps your viewpoint could have enlightened me to something I was missing out on regarding these pass lists.

jennyq

Sometimes your position in your class can be asked in job applications and interviews and things like that, so it's good to have some idea (although it's not really like a company can verify it).

jennyq

Pass lists are up now.

ordinary_girl

Are the pass lists compiled using your results for the full year or for this semester?

Gunslinger92

Full year I think.

I came 7th in my class for the year :eek:

Kavrocks

ordinary_girl wrote: »

Are the pass lists compiled using your results for the full year or for this semester?

Full year.

Powerhouse

jennyq wrote: »

Sometimes your position in your class can be asked in job applications and interviews and things like that, so it's good to have some idea (although it's not really like a company can verify it).

I've had many interviews and know many others who have had them and have never heard of anyone being asked that question. Just as well really as it was information that was never available to me when I was studying. Nor was it information I was ever interested in either. It does sound like an utterly weird question for a prospective employer to ask. They're either happy with your college grades or not and if not they shouldn't be interviewing you. What the class of whatever year in whatever college was like will be of little interest to them anyway. Their only interest at that stage is 'can you do the job?'

It seems to me that all that pass lists do is satisfy the base instinct among some to know what the neighbours are at. They serve no function anymore in this day and age. They were okay in 1984 or whatever when there was no electronic means of getting provisional information to students about to break up for the summer. But it is an extraordinarily archaic practice at this stage.

Cardor

Powerhouse wrote: »

I've had many interviews and know many others who have had them and have never heard of anyone being asked that question. Just as well really as it was information that was never available to me when I was studying. Nor was it information I was ever interested in either. It does sound like an utterly weird question for a prospective employer to ask. They're either happy with your college grades or not and if not they shouldn't be interviewing you. What the class of whatever year in whatever college was like will be of little interest to them anyway. Their only interest at that stage is 'can you do the job?'

It seems to me that all that pass lists do is satisfy the base instinct among some to know what the neighbours are at. They serve no function anymore in this day and age. They were okay in 1984 or whatever when there was no electronic means of getting provisional information to students about to break up for the summer. But it is an extraordinarily archaic practice at this stage.

I don't understand why it is such a big problem to you. If people want them, let them have them. Nobody is being forced to look at them.

I saw my pass list and saw what my position was in the class, which made me feel better about my result. I don't know anybody else's position in my class, not one person. I know there are a lot of people who got better results than me and also a lot who didn't get as high as me, but that's it. I don't know who any of those people are nor do I want to know.

Unless they post their student number's publicly, there is noway of anyone finding out their position in the class. I find the posting of pass lists to be an incentive to students. Those who are ranked high know that they are on the right track with the amount of work that they are doing and those who are not ranked high/not happy with their rank know that they need to work harder and push themselves that bit better to improve.

Powerhouse

Cardor wrote: »

Nobody is being forced to look at them.

It's good to see there's at least one 21st century practice in the college so.

jennyq

Powerhouse wrote: »

I've had many interviews and know many others who have had them and have never heard of anyone being asked that question. Just as well really as it was information that was never available to me when I was studying. Nor was it information I was ever interested in either. It does sound like an utterly weird question for a prospective employer to ask. They're either happy with your college grades or not and if not they shouldn't be interviewing you. What the class of whatever year in whatever college was like will be of little interest to them anyway. Their only interest at that stage is 'can you do the job?'

It seems to me that all that pass lists do is satisfy the base instinct among some to know what the neighbours are at. They serve no function anymore in this day and age. They were okay in 1984 or whatever when there was no electronic means of getting provisional information to students about to break up for the summer. But it is an extraordinarily archaic practice at this stage.

I've only had 3 and I've been asked in one of them. It might not be really common but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Personally I don't see what the fuss is about - if an individual doesn't care about their position in the class then they can ignore them. I don't see why anyone would complain about it, it isn't harming anyone as it's student numbers only and I think people are entitled to know their position in the class and to be able to tell if they are keeping up with the class standard year on year (for personal reasons as well as being able to put it on a CV/tell employers).

Powerhouse

jennyq wrote: »

I've only had 3 and I've been asked in one of them. It might not be really common but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I never said it doesn't happen - I cannot claim intimate knowledge of every interview worldwide throughout the year. I just said that I had never heard of it and I would have long experience and would know many people with long experience of interviews usually in areas where academic achievement played a significant part. That's suggests to me that it is very very rare.

If people have a desperate need to know where they finished in the class (I have yet to hear a plausible reason why they would need to know - though 'so I could feel better about myself' was a genuinely funny reason:)) that could easily be done by including an extra column in the results that are provided electronically. That keeps the people who constantly look over their shoulder happy while maintaining genuine confidentiality as opposed to the ah-sure-t'will-be-grand-they'll-never-know-each-other's-student-numbers type.

One more point about people's place in their class - do they not realise that there are thousands of graduates out there going for the same jobs?
I can only assume the employer who asked that question of you was rather stuck for something to ask. Someone's ranking among the interviewees is surely all that matters.

Rosita

Cardor wrote: »

I find the posting of pass lists to be an incentive to students. Those who are ranked high know that they are on the right track with the amount of work that they are doing and those who are not ranked high/not happy with their rank know that they need to work harder and push themselves that bit better to improve.

This is a silly argument. Students know what the grade structures are and what they should be capable of getting. Students compete against grades not against their peers. What good is it being top of the class if you are only getting a middling 2.1? If anything this approach might work as a disincentive if a student is in among an unexceptional cohort and make them think they're doing well when they're not.

If the idea is to make students work harder then raise the pass standard to 50%, 2.2 to 60% and 2.1. to 65%. I think it was mentioned in an earlier post that it is way too easy to get a 2.1.

thecornflake

I have been asked for my place in class for all for years of my undergrad on an application before.

Your place in class is important so that interviewers know what the standard was at in that particular year. For instance, it is reasonable to assume that a 1.1 is impressive, however what if i told you that everyone that year got a 1.1 ?

I know the above example is dramatic but in my final year, 50% of my class got a 1.1, thus i believe it is important to know where you stand in terms of everyone else.

Rosita

thecornflake wrote: »

Your place in class is important so that interviewers know what the standard was at in that particular year. For instance, it is reasonable to assume that a 1.1 is impressive, however what if i told you that everyone that year got a 1.1 ?

I know the above example is dramatic but in my final year, 50% of my class got a 1.1, thus i believe it is important to know where you stand in terms of everyone else.

Dramatic indeed. Standards don't actually vary much. Colleges will tend to have the same number of firsts, two-ones etc. most years. That's how they set standards in the first place when marking.

I suppose we are getting selection bias here in the responses but place in the class cannot be as important as claimed I would think because in my six years in Uni I never heard it mentioned. People fussed over their own grade not everyone else's. Then again we'd have been confident that there was a proper marking and standards scheme in place and never felt the need to justify general standards. Maybe it depends on the college.

I don't get the supposed interest of employers in it anyway. If someone was in an interview and said they had a 1.1 would they really add a little rider that it was nothing much because they were giving out 1.1s free with the cornflakes that year?

The only possible reason I could see for an employer to ask such a question is to assess whether they are in the ballpark in attracting top graduates for job applications. Or maybe if DCU is seen as having a name for giving higher grades than ability merits and that is a concern in industry based on prior experience. Either way it's a very unscientific way to find out as people tend to be economical with truth in interviews in areas which might not reflect well on them.

Cardor

Powerhouse wrote: »

I never said it doesn't happen - I cannot claim intimate knowledge of every interview worldwide throughout the year. I just said that I had never heard of it and I would have long experience and would know many people with long experience of interviews usually in areas where academic achievement played a significant part. That's suggests to me that it is very very rare.

If people have a desperate need to know where they finished in the class (I have yet to hear a plausible reason why they would need to know - though 'so I could feel better about myself' was a genuinely funny reason:)) that could easily be done by including an extra column in the results that are provided electronically. That keeps the people who constantly look over their shoulder happy while maintaining genuine confidentiality as opposed to the ah-sure-t'will-be-grand-they'll-never-know-each-other's-student-numbers type.

One more point about people's place in their class - do they not realise that there are thousands of graduates out there going for the same jobs?
I can only assume the employer who asked that question of you was rather stuck for something to ask. Someone's ranking among the interviewees is surely all that matters.

If a student wishes to know his/her class rank, it should be disclosed to him/her regardless of what others think. If you don't want to see yours, then don't look. I can't understand why some people are so against it. If I feel the need to find out what my position is in my course, I should be in a position to do so. Even if it were for selfish reasons, it wouldn't have any effect on any other student in the class.

'so I could feel better about myself' - You said this reason was funny, yet it wasn't said by anybody on this thread, so nobody actually knows whether it was truthfully said or not. If you were actually meant to quote me - "so I could feel better about my result", so what? It did make me feel better about my result. (Lets all laugh together :rolleyes:) I wasn't happy with my result, I thought I was falling behind others in my class, which turned out not to be the case - proving to myself that I was on the right track.

Comparing myself against my class may not be what my employer wants to hear according to some people on this thread, yet still, I know many people who have written on their CV's, that they received the best leaving cert (or best something) in their school. Even though that's something that becomes somewhat invalid once you receive your degree, it's still an achievement. If you received a student of the year award due to your good attitude and behavior, you would obviously include that in an interview/CV, wouldn't you? - That's an award which you received after being ranked first in your class/course, it's something that can be quite beneficial, when looking for a job. Why can you not understand that this idea can also be applied to college degrees? I have yet to complete college, so i'm obviously not in a strong position to be making this argument, however, my point still stands, that if I want to know my rank in my course, it should be made available to me, regardless of my reasons.

Powerhouse wrote: »

It's good to see there's at least one 21st century practice in the college so.

Hilarious.

Rosita wrote: »

This is a silly argument. Students know what the grade structures are and what they should be capable of getting. Students compete against grades not against their peers. What good is it being top of the class if you are only getting a middling 2.1? If anything this approach might work as a disincentive if a student is in among an unexceptional cohort and make them think they're doing well when they're not.

If the idea is to make students work harder then raise the pass standard to 50%, 2.2 to 60% and 2.1. to 65%. I think it was mentioned in an earlier post that it is way too easy to get a 2.1.

Yes I agree, students do know what grade structures are but they do not, however, always know what they are capable of achieving. If you find out that you're ranked second last in your class, receiving a third class honour, in your first year, yet the next highest ranking person is receiving a 2.1, the ranking system is obviously proving that the student needs to work harder, as he/she is falling way behind his/her peers. A person with a 1.1 is, in almost all cases, going to have a higher chance of getting a job than a person with a 2.2. If a course of 20 people had 10 of those receive 1.1's in their first year, nine receive 2.1's and only one person receives a 2.2 (although a reasonable result, yet still ranking last), that person knows that he/she needs to improve, as each of those 19 people would have higher chances of receiving a job than the person that ranked last. The ranking system is clearly useful in this case. Furthermore, I understand that a student, who is receiving a 2.2, should have the common sense to try better his/her grade, without having to know what others are receiving. The fact is, that the student may believe that he/she is on par with the rest of his/her class through having a 2.2. This belief will not be so, as long as the pass lists continue to be available. An employer wants the best of the best, so if the best is only a person with a 2.2 degree, and there are over 100 others with a 2.2 degree, the ranking system would help quite a lot in that situation.

Anyway, I'm not really worrying about jobs at the moment. I really just wanted to know how I ranked in my class. I cannot grasp why others want to criticise me for it, but obviously, you have every right to do so. I really don't believe that the pass lists are actually going to cause any problems for the future. So, hopefully, they will stay the way they are.

SB69

Wow!

I only found out about these "pass lists" a couple of days ago and ended up really wanting to know how I was positioned within my course (Curiosity got the better of me ). I never even knew about these last year - really wish I did.

I think everybody is completely blowing these out or proportion. Are they really causing that much harm? I looked at the list, saw where I was positioned, and that was it. No harm done. I think it's always nice to know how you fair out amongst your peers. Nothing wrong with a bit of friendly competition - even though you don't actually know who is where on the list, it is, all the same, nice to know.

Powerhouse

Cardor wrote: »

If a student wishes to know his/her class rank, it should be disclosed to him/her regardless of what others think.

If you had read my posts properly you would see that I suggested this could be done on the student's own individual exam results. Just add an extra column for 'place in class'.

That ensures absolute confidentiality exam results while also satisfisying the curiosity of the students for whom this is really important without forcing people to - inevitably - have to field questions about their results in front of a public notice board as happened in colleges 30 years ago.

Powerhouse

SB69 wrote: »

I think everybody is completely blowing these out or proportion. Are they really causing that much harm?

Who mentioned 'harm'? All that's being said is that it compromises confidentiality and there's an easy way around that by including that information on the student's personal results. The day and age of results being publicly available to any level should be gone. It is astonishing that so many people diagree with that given that they presuambly would be very concerned about confidentialty reagrding other personal details. Even more strange that they disagree with an almost religious or even anti-religious fervour.

Powerhouse

Cardor wrote: »

If you received a student of the year award due to your good attitude and behavior, you would obviously include that in an interview/CV, wouldn't you? - That's an award which you received after being ranked first in your class/course, it's something that can be quite beneficial, when looking for a job.


Yes I agree, students do know what grade structures are but they do not, however, always know what they are capable of achieving. If you find out that you're ranked second last in your class, receiving a third class honour, in your first year, yet the next highest ranking person is receiving a 2.1, the ranking system is obviously proving that the student needs to work harder, as he/she is falling way behind his/her peers. A person with a 1.1 is, in almost all cases, going to have a higher chance of getting a job than a person with a 2.2. If a course of 20 people had 10 of those receive 1.1's in their first year, nine receive 2.1's and only one person receives a 2.2 (although a reasonable result, yet still ranking last), that person knows that he/she needs to improve, as each of those 19 people would have higher chances of receiving a job than the person that ranked last. The ranking system is clearly useful in this case. Furthermore, I understand that a student, who is receiving a 2.2, should have the common sense to try better his/her grade, without having to know what others are receiving. The fact is, that the student may believe that he/she is on par with the rest of his/her class through having a 2.2. This belief will not be so, as long as the pass lists continue to be available. An employer wants the best of the best, so if the best is only a person with a 2.2 degree, and there are over 100 others with a 2.2 degree, the ranking system would help quite a lot in that situation.

Anyway, I'm not really worrying about jobs at the moment. I really just wanted to know how I ranked in my class. I cannot grasp why others want to criticise me for it, but obviously, you have every right to do so. I really don't believe that the pass lists are actually going to cause any problems for the future. So, hopefully, they will stay the way they are.

Anyone with any experience of interviewing will know that most people they get in front of them will have been student of the year, captain of the football team, on the debating team etc. etc. and will have a strong filter for this BS.

Similarly an unverifiable claim about ranking in a class group isn't worth the paper it's written on. Like I said, make it official by including it on the actual results transcript and it will have some credibiliy. Let's be honest, if you ask the average interviewee where they finished in the class they're hardly going to say bottom of the pile. If it's genuinely relevant then let the Students' Union ask the student body if they wish to have it on official transcripts. The response would be interesting I think.

All the stuff about students not knowing their capabilities without class ranking is a joke. I spent eight years in University and never once knew where I stood in the class. But I quickly knew what I was capable of getting. This is third-level, not fourth class.

Incidentally, I couldn't agree more with Rosita. A 2.1 for anything less than 65% is not credible. Anyone getting as poor/easily achieved a mark as 60% should not be in the second tier in any college.

SB69

Powerhouse wrote: »

Who mentioned 'harm'? All that's being said is that it compromises confidentiality and there's an easy way around that by including that information on the student's personal results. The day and age of results being publicly available to any level should be gone. It is astonishing that so many people diagree with that given that they presuambly would be very concerned about confidentialty reagrding other personal details. Even more strange that they disagree with an almost religious or even anti-religious fervour.

Sorry but what confidentiality is being compromised? Have you seen the pass lists this week? I haven't heard of one student who felt that their personal information was being revealed to the rest of the student body. Nobody knows which result belongs to whom and there is no way of finding out unless the student numbers are released alongside the name of the person to whom they belong. I don't mind if the information is included on my results, once I get to see it. But if that's the case, all the other results are going to have to be included too. What I mean is, receiving a rank of 19 and a 2.2 is pointless without knowing what that rank actually means. Am I joint highest/lowest, am I in the middles? I don't know!

If that were they case, that they published them with the results, they could include everyone else's without their student numbers, as it wouldn't matter then. But for now, since that practice is not in place, I, along with the rest of my class, am quite happy with the current method.

Just out of shear curiosity, again :P, are you actually in DCU at the moment, because all CA results are published with our corresponding student numbers, throughout the year, outside the lecturer's offices and nobody has a problem with it. That's the exact same thing as looking at the pass lists online and is actually, somewhat better. We don't have to wait for ages, for the registry to update them online, as once they are corrected, we receive our result.

Powerhouse

SB69 wrote: »

1) Sorry but what confidentiality is being compromised?

2) I haven't heard of one student who felt that their personal information was being revealed to the rest of the student body.

1) The confidentiality of the head-hunting tribes of Borneo - what do you think?

2) I never said anyone's 'personal information was revealed'. What I have been saying is that confidentiality is compromised. The distinction is perhaps too subtle for some, but to put it another way the potential for revelation, albeit indirectly, is there.

And to justify this practice by saying that results for various assignments are also put into the public domain is risible. All such information should be confidential. But DCU appears to have a particular problem in this respect. I cannot speak of the place right now but up to a few years ago anyway they had not embraced the concept of confidential marking of exams as you routinely have in, say, UCD.

I just think it's strange in this day and age and will inevitably be challenged by some students who doesn't lack the cojones to stand out from the rest and do so.

Cardor

Powerhouse wrote: »

1) The confidentiality of the head-hunting tribes of Borneo - what do you think?

2) I never said anyone's 'personal information was revealed'. What I have been saying is that confidentiality is compromised. The distinction is perhaps too subtle for some, but to put it another way the potential for revelation, albeit indirectly, is there.

And to justify this practice by saying that results for various assignments are also put into the public domain is risible. All such information should be confidential. But DCU appears to have a particular problem in this respect. I cannot speak of the place right now but up to a few years ago anyway they had not embraced the concept of confidential marking of exams as you routinely have in, say, UCD.

I just think it's strange in this day and age and will inevitably be challenged by some students who doesn't lack the cojones to stand out from the rest and do so.

You can argue and argue and argue and argue, but confidentiality is not being compromised, nobody knows which result belongs to whom, regardless of what you say. You're making an issue out of nothing. Get over it. The pass lists aren't going anywhere anytime soon and hopefully that'll be the case, whilst I remain a student here. I'm finishing with this now. There's no reason for me to defend something, which doesn't really need defending. Bye.

Kavrocks

The passlist for my class has 11 people on it.

I can tell you the name of every person on it and their position on it without anybody in my class telling me their position or their student number.

I can also tell you the names of the people who are not on the passlist.

Saying confidentiality is not being compromised is incorrect. Anytime results for my class are published publicly or via the class email list with student numbers I can tell you what mark everybody received.

I should point out that I am in favour of the passlists being published for my own reasons.

SB69

Cardor wrote: »

You can argue and argue and argue and argue, but confidentiality is not being compromised, nobody knows which result belongs to whom, regardless of what you say. You're making an issue out of nothing. Get over it. The pass lists aren't going anywhere anytime soon and hopefully that'll be the case, whilst I remain a student here. I'm finishing with this now. There's no reason for me to defend something, which doesn't really need defending. Bye.

Totally agree. I think we have such differing opinions that, by the looks of things, are not going to be agreeing with one another anytime soon! :P If the pass lists are stopped, I really don't think it'd be the end of the world, just as much as if they were to continue.

Powerhouse

Kavrocks wrote: »

The passlist for my class has 11 people on it.

I can tell you the name of every person on it and their position on it without anybody in my class telling me their position or their student number.

I can also tell you the names of the people who are not on the passlist.

Saying confidentiality is not being compromised is incorrect. Anytime results for my class are published publicly or via the class email list with student numbers I can tell you what mark everybody received.

I should point out that I am in favour of the passlists being published for my own reasons.

I think this says it all really. It is conconceivable that this practice can occur year in year out in a class and people do not get to have at least some knowledge of who is whom.

I am a bit further along the cycle of life than a current DCU student and perhaps more aware of confidentiality of information and the reasonable entitlement and expectation of that in most circumstances.

Powerhouse

Cardor wrote: »

confidentiality is not being compromised

Of course it is. The very act of putting information into the public domain compromises confidentiality by definition.

The possibility of that 99.9% of students peruse the passlists in a daze and with no knowledge of any other student number does not change that.

Confidentiality is either absolute or doesn't exist at all.

bren2001

Powerhouse wrote: »

Of course it is. The very act of putting information into the public domain compromises confidentiality by definition.

The possibility of that 99.9% of students peruse the passlists in a daze and with no knowledge of any other student number does not change that.

Confidentiality is either absolute or doesn't exist at all.

Confidentiality is being compromised. I have a list of student numbers for people in my class that I easily could of cross referenced to match people up. They may as well put the names on it!

I do like to know where I came in the class and am a fan of passlists granted I think they should be put on your results pages just stating where you came in the class, you should only know where you came and not anybody else (granted I dont care who knows where I came but I imagine some people would)

Noodleworm

Cardor wrote: »

Unless they post their student number's publicly, there is noway of anyone finding out their position in the class.

This is entirely false. Anyone with a simple and basic knowledge of DCU's LDAP system can easily find out which Student Number belongs to which student.
It's not that difficult.