How Serious is This ????

faolteam

Is it True that criminals are using GSM jammers which emit a powerful signal that blocks intruder alerts sent by alarm systems to Monitoring stations as well as phone signals and they are buying these jammers can be bought on the internet for 20 euro and some of these have the capacity to block monitored alarm systems throughout an entire estate ????

So is there any point of having Monitor systems now and does this knock the Alarm from sounding ???

fred funk }{

Yes. It's relatively easy to obtain a GSM blocker. They work by acting as a mast and mobile phones/ gsm dialers will automatically connect to the strongest signal. So, your GSM dialer will connect to the dummy mast and when it tries to dial out it can't.

The blockers used by most burglars will only work within a small radius. To block a whole estate you'd need something very substantial.

kub

Just on your last question re the sound, you will have to try that for yourself.
Please be aware this is a public forum, we do not know who else may be reading this.

KoolKid

It blocks signals to a monitoring station where a GSM dialler is used. Most installers are moving away from GSM as a reliable form of monitoring.
A GSM jammer will not prevent the alarm from activating.

faolteam

knocks ur confidence a bit

KoolKid

Just a matter of moving with the times. Years ago we thought key switch alarms were secure and that was just an open close pair to arm/dis arm.
Unfortunately some company's are more than happy to sell people GSM monitoring without informing them of the risks.

homelogic.ie

Recently I meet a rep from one of security companies. He said that their GSM module can't be blocked.:rolleyes: I was really impressed by that and interested in getting one, unfortunately he couldn't specify what "not jammable" frequency they using

KoolKid

Not surprising, as he could not back up his claims.

kub

homelogic.ie wrote: »

Recently I meet a rep from one of security companies. He said that their GSM module can't be blocked.:rolleyes: I was really impressed by that and interested in getting one, unfortunately he couldn't specify what "not jammable" frequency they using

Please note and bear in mind, you were speaking with a REP. Personally speaking I for one would regard a radio communicator as a much more secure back up. It does not at all use GSM frequencies.

I know that one particular monitoring station were very concerned about their polling GSM units last new years morning.

homelogic.ie

kub wrote: »

Please note and bear in mind, you were speaking with a REP. Personally speaking I for one would regard a radio communicator as a much more secure back up. It does not at all use GSM frequencies.

I know that one particular monitoring station were very concerned about their polling GSM units last new years morning.

My bad - I should said a rep/technician; generally this guy meets clients and works on their sites as well, so he's not a representative like say Eircom rep where those guys mostly have no clue about technical aspects.
But anyway, he's representing company or a sole trader he's working for, so as you could imagine his actions reflects not only on him. I could understand lack of knowledge, but this problem is going around for a some time so if they are serious about what they do, they should hear about this. If you are talking to a tradesman you assume that he knows what is he talking about, therefore you are most likely to believe in what he's saying. Question is - do they want you to know everything?

I agree about radio communicators - they are more secure at the moment, but I'm afraid for not so long. It is just a matter of time when radio jammers will be more accessible and cheaper. I believe this is the only reason why radios are safe for now.
Again, I bet you there are good few alarm companies representatives with a technical background claiming that radio can't be jammed

fred funk }{

Radios can be jammed too but the equipment to do it is military grade stuff. Very expensive and physically massive.

A burglar isn't going to spend a few million quid on a jammer and carry it around on the back of a lorry to break into someone's house to rob a laptop.

homelogic.ie

Yes and no. I know what you are saying, but unfortunately those things are not military restricted devices any more. You can get radio jammer for about 200-300 euros, which I believe is still a bit of money for a teen, but not for a proffesional burglar. I'm not going to post a link to a web store, but check yourself - sadly, getting a radio jammer is hot as hard as you think.
Polling is the only way to solve communication jamming problem.

fred funk }{

Any chance you could PM me a link for it. Cheers.

homelogic.ie

Send.

mattjack

I worked years ago in the intruder alarm industry and seem to remember some companies offering a 'belt and braces' option depending on your circumstance

A radio system, the old digi dialler and a mains siren in the hope something would get to the monitoring system and wake up everybody around .. this was about 15 years ago mind you.

KoolKid

Lots has changed since then thank God.
Re radio jamming , I have not seen or heard of any instances of this. I would imagine this would require much more powerful devices compared to GSM jammers. I would also imagineinformation on the network you want to jam would also be needed.

Thunderbird2

Koolkid I'd say it's fairly possible ( recall what I PMed you about).... Does radio work like a wireless sensor except far more powerful ??

KoolKid

Thunderbird2 wrote: »

Does radio work like a wireless sensor except far more powerful ??

No.

kub

My own thoughts on this subject are:

As mentioned GSM is a no no, we all know why.
Polling GSM via GPRS is a more secure way, but sometimes the polling is set at 15 mins.
I have not come across as yet, a radio jammer, neither has a radio left me down.
Also there is a bigger market for GSM blockers, obviously GSMs are a consumer product, everyone has one, so before long we will have GPRS blockers as well, then the security of the Polling units will be compromised.

I do not like the idea of a client of mine being called out of their bed in the early hours of the morning because a CS has not received a poll. I also dread to think what the guy could be faced with when he turns up at his premises to check it out, I have my doubts that the Gardai will turn out to a suspected 'technical fault' type call.

Therefore I prefer Radio's, the market is limited, so I can not imagine a manufacturer developing a radio jammer for this specific frequency range, I cannot imagine many being sold.

I wonder though at some time in the future could we possibly have radios working on the band which the Gardai tetra radio system works on. I bet thats a nice secure network. Word has it that Ambulance & Fire guys will also be on the Tetra system as well. Ps I know we are not an 'emergency service', but I am admiring the security of the tetra system.

Thunderbird2

Instead of trying to rely on the guards . Each monitoring station should have there own patrol units

KoolKid

They do.

Thunderbird2

Really ??? So why are the guards called ??

fred funk }{

Key holding is an additional service that is offered. Mainly used on commercials.

kub

Thunderbird2 wrote: »

Really ??? So why are the guards called ??

The Gardai are called when in the event of an intruder activation, it is a confirmed activation, as per their directive in 2005.
They are always called (unless the client has instructed otherwise) in the event of a panic alarm activation.

The gardai are called because it is a criminal offence to commit burglary or for most reasons why someone would press a PA button.

The Gardai are the police service of this nation, therefore they have full powers of arrest and have the necessary knowledge and instruments to round up the afore mentioned criminals.

Security men are civilains who infairness do an excellent job, they do not at all have the same powers as The Gardai.

altor

kub wrote: »

My own thoughts on this subject are:

As mentioned GSM is a no no, we all know why.
Polling GSM via GPRS is a more secure way, but sometimes the polling is set at 15 mins.
I have not come across as yet, a radio jammer, neither has a radio left me down.
Also there is a bigger market for GSM blockers, obviously GSMs are a consumer product, everyone has one, so before long we will have GPRS blockers as well, then the security of the Polling units will be compromised.

I do not like the idea of a client of mine being called out of their bed in the early hours of the morning because a CS has not received a poll. I also dread to think what the guy could be faced with when he turns up at his premises to check it out, I have my doubts that the Gardai will turn out to a suspected 'technical fault' type call.

Therefore I prefer Radio's, the market is limited, so I can not imagine a manufacturer developing a radio jammer for this specific frequency range, I cannot imagine many being sold.

I wonder though at some time in the future could we possibly have radios working on the band which the Gardai tetra radio system works on. I bet thats a nice secure network. Word has it that Ambulance & Fire guys will also be on the Tetra system as well. Ps I know we are not an 'emergency service', but I am admiring the security of the tetra system.

The radio is the way forward but the most expensive and that is what will keep it out of most residential premises.

Thunderbird2

To be honest I'd prefere to have a petrol car call out from a monitoring station then have the gardai call out . 1 the patrol from the monitoring station would arrive quicker ( we know how punctual the gards are )
2 . You'd be almost guaranteed that your premises will be checked where as the Gards prioritise their calls so maybe they'll come maybe the wont .

KoolKid

Not everyone would agree, and not everyone would be willing to pay.

TakeaBowSon

altor wrote: »

The radio is the way forward but the most expensive and that is what will keep it out of most residential premises.

It is the best way forward but it is not as expensive as some people may think. They are marginally higher than GSM units to install but the monitoring charge for them is lower than the combined landline and GSM monitoring that they replace.

<snip>

KoolKid

If you have some general information to share with us please do so. Otherwise it looks like you're pimping for business which is not allowed.

altor

TakeaBowSon wrote: »

It is the best way forward but it is not as expensive as some people may think. They are marginally higher than GSM units to install but the monitoring charge for them is lower than the combined landline and GSM monitoring that they replace.

<snip>

In some cases the Radio is close to the price of the GSM.

How much do you pay for the monitoring through the Radio, and which company is the monitoring with?

KoolKid

If you doubt radio is the way to go.

SOME 60 new jobs are to be created by Irish-owned security and alarm company Alarm Control 24.

Soure: Irish Times

kub

Thanks KoolKid, I did not know they were associated with Action.

KoolKid

Really?
Common knowledge ,I thought. Then again maybe its just I know most of them.

kub

I'd imagine that we are spoilt for choice down here, or perhaps a little insulated.

Luckycharms_74

Just came across this thread guys.
I have a phone watch system. Its about 4 years old and as we dont have a physical phone line we have a little Aerial ( I assume its the GSM box ?) internally to communicate with the call centre.
Anyone out there know if the phone watch system can be jammed by GSM blockers.

Thunderbird2

Luckycharms_74 wrote: »

Just came across this thread guys.
I have a phone watch system. Its about 4 years old and as we dont have a physical phone line we have a little Aerial ( I assume its the GSM box ?) internally to communicate with the call centre.
Anyone out there know if the phone watch system can be jammed by GSM blockers.

Yes it can but Eircom PW will tell you it can't .

KoolKid

At the moment any system using GSM can be janmed.
Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.

Luckycharms_74

So if I were to replace my curreent system with a Radio Frequency one. Could any of the existing sensors / door contacts be used from the phone watch one with the new one ??

Thunderbird2

Yes

KoolKid

The radio replaces the digi not the alarm. Everything with your alarm stays the same. Ask your monitoring company the simple question, can my GSM digi be jammed? If they say no ask can they give you a written guarantee saying that.

Luckycharms_74

KoolKid wrote: »

The radio replaces the digi not the alarm. Everything with your alarm stays the same. Ask your monitoring company the simple question, can my GSM digi be jammed? If they say no ask can they give you a written guarantee saying that.

Yeah I will call Phone watch and ask the question. If they don't offer the guarantee I will have to look for another alarm company to make the changes to my system.
Any good recommendations out there ??

KoolKid

Any licenced company can monitor your alarm.
Take a look at the Suppliers & Installers sticky.

TakeaBowSon

Bit more in the Irish Times today regarding the Jammers...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0705/1224319428203.html

altor

The amount of calls I have received on this subject this week is amazing.
They are talking about a GSM being jammed. Not the alarm system itself.
It only applies to people who have a GSM on there system.

KoolKid

This is the bit that amazes me
"which also adhered to the State regulations"
When are they going to take these off the standards & make the insurance industry take notice. There are Guards out there still insisting on GSM units for gun safes.:eek: When you ask about radio they know nothing about it.

altor

I dont think they will ever do that. There are different types of GSM on the market so taking it out of the standard is not an option.

With the likes of a polling dual com or the new HKC one to be released that has the polling it will make them more secure to combat the blocker than on the standard GSM which the monitoring station has no way of knowing what is happening till it is the next day. The main issue will be the polling time and the response time. These times will have to be brought down as low as possible.

Radio itself is the way to go but how long before that gets blocked too, only time will tell.

KoolKid

My main problem with polling is I don't think it will ever be taken serious as an attack. Imagine the poor controller in a station with 1000 of these on new years eve or the likes when every network fails. Only this afternoon there was serious issues with Vodafones network in South Dublin.

altor

That is why they come with a world sim. Roams to every network.

KoolKid

That would solve today's problems, but not new years eve. Between 1030 & 0030 on new years eve should every line fault on a PSTN with GSM get Garda Response ?

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

That would solve today's problems, but not new years eve. Between 1030 & 0030 on new years eve should every line fault on a PSTN with GSM get Garda Response ?

It would be rare to get all the networks down and the PSTN at the same time. Even on new years eve.
Should they be given Garda Response, yes they should if that is what is being paid for.

KoolKid

New years eve is a forgone conclusion that networks will be over congested. Polling will fail . There is nothing unusual about that , it happens every year.
PSTN lines are also congested at that time. But In a case where networks are known to be over capacity I don't think Garda resources should be wasted on a line fault. Especially on a busy night for crime & disturbance either way.

Radio is not subject to these problems.

I beleive GSM will be removed from the standards at some stage. With all the publicity its getting hopefully sooner rather than later. Knowing this country it will be only after some insurance company has to pay out on a big claim because of a GSM failure.
Does anyone know for sure if the guards have an agrees policy that missing polls & a line fault will be treated as a verified alarm?