Smartmeters

recedite

Anyone know whats happening with these?
I know ESB/networks installed a lot of digital meters in houses about 2 years ago, as part of a trial.

Two reasons why I am interested;
1) I could easily reschedule our electricity usage (dishwasher, washing machine, immersion heater) if there was a price incentive.
If the price was constantly changing, for example if it got cheaper in windy weather due to the turbines, an electronic gizmo connected to the internet could take advantage of cheap tariffs.
If everyone did this, the country would benefit. Cheaper than storage or interconnectors (although we can have those as well).

2) I expect PV solar panels to become attractive in the next few years, but apparently an import/export meter is needed to sell any power back into the grid.

The meter most of us have with its mechanical spinning disc is very old tech and at this stage its holding us back, both as individuals and as a nation. Surely it's not all that difficult to develop a digital meter that can measure electricity usage/generation and record the time of usage?

Don't mention night rate meters, that's old tech with higher day rate tariffs and standing charges to discourage people from being innovative...

zagmund

I don't know where they stand at the moment in the Irish context, but from my line of work there have been a few rumblings about the security of connected meters and rumours that some countries and/or vendors are having second thoughts.

In short, if it's connected to the internet you have a security risk - mainly a denial of service from an attacker who kills your power supply. If it's electronically programmable you have a risk of toll-fraud where meters are either disabled temporarily, told to bill at zero cost, etc . . . Obviously it's not as simple as connecting up and telling your meter to do something without authorisation, but the problem these days is that once one exploit has been developed, all meters (all similar ones anyway) are vulnerable.

With the pace of change in technology I think suppliers are a bit wary of committing to a huge infrastructure expenditure which could be found to be insecure or simply be replaced by more advanced technology a few years after it was rolled out.

z

Heroditas

The two biggest issues are:
1. Cost
2. Functionality/futureproofing

Point 2 affects point 1.
The question is whether you build extra features into the smart meters that will be needed in the future.

Suppliers are wary because there is potentially a massive cost involved that may not have been fully substantiated, in fact; is very difficult to substantiate.

The CER's decision paper was due to be released but has now been delayed by a bit.

recedite

zagmund wrote: »

if it's connected to the internet you have a security risk

There's no need for the meter to be connected to the internet. An electronic gizmo in the house would need to know the current tariff in real-time for the purposes of switching appliances on and off. Most likely this would be a wi-fi enabled gadget, but it may be possible for a pricing signal to be carried (piggybacked) on the electricity cable itself. In that case the house would not need an internet connection at all.

Heroditas wrote: »

The two biggest issues are:
1. Cost
2. Functionality/futureproofing

The question is whether you build extra features into the smart meters that will be needed in the future.

All that's needed is the ability to record net electricity usage and relate it to time of usage. No more.

If ESB networks as a semi-state won't pay for them, then tell customers the cost and give them the option to install.
As an addition to national infastructure though, it would probably be better for the network to supply them as standard, even if it meant an extra state subsidy to ESB or a hike in the standing charge.

quentingargan

I have one - it was installed because I am exporting electricity from a wind turbine. This was done for free on a renewables incentive, but now if you are installing microgeneration, the ESB will charge €350 for one.

The unit is supposed to be read using GSM and is wired to an antenna on our wall (we have no phone signal here, so I regard my exports as a sort of long term interest free saving scheme).

But however smart it might be, we are still on the same day and night rates we were on before. There hasn't been any move to introduce more tariffs.

Large consumers can pay a margin on the wholesale price of electricity. If that were introduced across the board, there would be a boom in technology for switching systems to control washing machines, freezers and other discretionary equipment, as well as timing the charging of electric cars etc. As we put more wind on the grid here, there is an urgent need for this sort of demand side management...

Heroditas

recedite wrote: »

All that's needed is the ability to record net electricity usage and relate it to time of usage. No more.

Then it's not a smart meter, it's just a data logger.

recedite

A data logger that measures AC current. Yes, that's all it is.

Markcheese

recedite wrote: »

A data logger that measures AC current. Yes, that's all it is.

If a smart meter is to work properly does it not have to inform the user when excess/cheap power is available on the system, no mater what time of day or night it's available....
Not much point in running your washing machine, dryer , water heater on what turns out to be a still windless night.... And finding out a month later that it was full rate

Dotsie~tmp

edit

recedite

Markcheese wrote: »

If a smart meter is to work properly does it not have to inform the user when excess/cheap power is available on the system.....

It could be linked to a small gizmo in the kitchen displaying current prices, but equally the gizmo could be totally independent and receiving the information from the internet. Or conceivably you could look up the info on teletext, or subscribe to sms text alerts for bargain rates (maybe during windy weather). These kind of devices will appear on the market as soon as the variable tariffs appear, with or without the capability of switching on/off home appliances.

So....I had a chance to look at a new electronic type meter installed by the ESB in 2011. It was an Iskra ME168 model. Very similar to the ME 162 shown here.
Not all that smart though, it seems to be capable of charging two different tariffs.
Looking at the same link above, Iskra also have much better models, such as the ME341 as sold to Electricity de France. French customers can choose to access very cheap electricity at times "dictated by the market." Here's how it works;

The good news is that this means, despite the increased standing charge, electricity on blue days is by far the cheapest that you can get it, and during the cheap rate on a blue day the rate is extremely low.
On white days the rate is higher than either option HC or Base, but not by much. The bad news is that on red days the cost is over 10 times that of cheap rate blue, i.e. it is prohibitively expensive to encourage lower usage. Of course these days are usually the coldest of the winter. The main draw back is that you don’t know what colour the next day is until 8pm the night before.
You have a display unit that plugs into any socket in your home that picks up a signal from the supply and so the unit displays the colour with a light, both for today and the next (from 8pm).
Alternatively you can look at the EDF website (in French): http://particuliers.edf.fr/article482.html or check your meter.

source
10 times cheaper! And the rate is set the day before. So, as I suspected it is easy enough to piggyback the pricing info signal onto the electricity cable itself. Basically it's not rocket science, it's all been done before, and the guys in ESB are letting us all down by not adopting available technology.

Iskra have even smarter meters too, the AMM automatic meter management series, and presumably they would manufacture whatever was wanted.
One of the benefits of being in the EU is that we all have a standardised voltage of around 230V now, whereas 20 years ago they used 220V in France and Germany, but in UK/ Ireland it was up around 240V. So all these meters are fully compatible with our grid.

Markcheese

Cool .... Bit more tech than our system... What's the advantage to the esb of using the new "smart " system that they're testing over the traditional day rate/night rate mechanical meter....
The French were doing the coloured bulb trick to indicate power cost in the 70's. I think it used a short wave radio signal to indicate meter pricing ...

ted1

Iskra are fairly crap meters with quite poor technology. I use them quite often. The smart meters won't have be internet based, they will use a ESB network generally a mesh network that will use power line conversion. They have trialled different tarrif schedules and will probably settle for a 4 or 5 band system. Winter day, night, peak, summer day, night. There will be a possibility for gas meters to piggyback on the system.

ted1

recedite wrote: »

It could be linked to a small gizmo in the kitchen displaying current prices, but equally the gizmo could be totally independent and receiving the information from the internet. Or conceivably you could look up the info on teletext, or subscribe to sms text alerts for bargain rates (maybe during windy weather). These kind of devices will appear on the market as soon as the variable tariffs appear, with or without the capability of switching on/off home appliances.

So....I had a chance to look at a new electronic type meter installed by the ESB in 2011. It was an Iskra ME168 model. Very similar to the ME 162 shown here.
Not all that smart though, it seems to be capable of charging two different tariffs.
Looking at the same link above, Iskra also have much better models, such as the ME341 as sold to Electricity de France. French customers can choose to access very cheap electricity at times "dictated by the market." Here's how it works;
source
10 times cheaper! And the rate is set the day before. So, as I suspected it is easy enough to piggyback the pricing info signal onto the electricity cable itself. Basically it's not rocket science, it's all been done before, and the guys in ESB are letting us all down by not adopting available technology.

Iskra have even smarter meters too, the AMM automatic meter management series, and presumably they would manufacture whatever was wanted.
One of the benefits of being in the EU is that we all have a standardised voltage of around 230V now, whereas 20 years ago they used 220V in France and Germany, but in UK/ Ireland it was up around 240V. So all these meters are fully compatible with our grid.

. Nonsense, the meters would work with the different voltages, watts is volts * amps. A difference of 20v doesn't make that much of a difference.

Heroditas

ted1 wrote: »

Iskra are fairly crap meters with quite poor technology. I use them quite often. The smart meters won't have be internet based, they will use a ESB network generally a mesh network that will use power line conversion. They have trialled different tarrif schedules and will probably settle for a 4 or 5 band system. Winter day, night, peak, summer day, night. There will be a possibility for gas meters to piggyback on the system.

It isn't set in stone that PLC will be the preferred method.
Nothing has been decided or even vaguely discussed regarding what sort of ToU tariffs will be used, bar what was trialled in the pilot.
No possibility about gas meters piggybacking - they will be piggybacking the system.

Bluefang

Delay having one of these installed at all costs - the data bit-streams emited from a smart meter are transmitted by means of being superimposed on the power lines, directly back to monitoring stations much like the latest "smart plugs" for transamitting data around a domestic dwelling via the house wiring.

This enables the supplier to hit a user with more precise tariffs depending on time of day usage (and not for the good of the consumer let it be said), and can also tell the supplier a lot more that just this.

You will be inviting big brother into your home.

Hope this sheds some light.....

quentingargan

Bluefang wrote: »

Delay having one of these installed at all costs - the data bit-streams emited from a smart meter are transmitted by means of being superimposed on the power lines, directly back to monitoring stations much like the latest "smart plugs" for transamitting data around a domestic dwelling via the house wiring.

This enables the supplier to hit a user with more precise tariffs depending on time of day usage (and not for the good of the consumer let it be said), and can also tell the supplier a lot more that just this.

You will be inviting big brother into your home.

Hope this sheds some light.....

The smart meter I have uses GSM to send meter readings back to the office. I support the idea that tariffs will be more varied, as this will drive demand-side-management, which is the only effective way to incorporate more sporadic sources of renewable energy into the grid.

Sure - if the kettle goes on at 8.23, I was watching the soccer, and if it went on at 8.31, I was watching Fair City, and maybe the marketing gurus can hit me with targeted ads, just like Google does, but I can't really imagine that anyone is bothered... Come on in Big brother and sit on the couch beside Google and my Super-Valu club card (which will notice when its time for me to buy hair colouring):)

Markcheese

No offence bluefang... But isn't that kind of the point of smart meters ?? Many rates at varying times to encourage people to use off peak power, spread the load and hopefully cut infrastructure cost,(think Ryanair pricing -really expensive when everyone else wants to fly,- stupidly cheap when they've an empty plane.... )
Anywho how much info can "they" get from my power usage.... Ooh he's turned the oven on again ...

Bluefang

Nice to hear back from some fairly clued up people - I am new to this particular forum.

I think that energy providers will use smart meters as a means of maximizing revenues from consumers during peak tariff usage instead of rewarding them for off peak usage. This can't presently be done with analogue meters that I am aware of.

Plus there are other uses of remote monitoring that I don't particularly want to discuss in the public domain.

Word is from an individual in ESB networks that these devices are being rolled out ASAP as per water meters - again I do not perceive this to be to the benefit to the end user.

My main interests are in renewables, ie PV and Wingen, if that sheds any light on what I have said so far.

Good to hear from you both.

fclauson

quentingargan wrote: »

The smart meter I have uses GSM to send meter readings back to the office. I support the idea that tariffs will be more varied, as this will drive demand-side-management, which is the only effective way to incorporate more sporadic sources of renewable energy into the grid.

Sure - if the kettle goes on at 8.23, I was watching the soccer, and if it went on at 8.31, I was watching Fair City, and maybe the marketing gurus can hit me with targeted ads, just like Google does, but I can't really imagine that anyone is bothered... Come on in Big brother and sit on the couch beside Google and my Super-Valu club card (which will notice when its time for me to buy hair colouring):)

Quentin - any news on when the meters will actually get Smart and do time based pricing ?

fclauson

quentingargan wrote: »

The smart meter I have uses GSM to send meter readings back to the office. I support the idea that tariffs will be more varied, as this will drive demand-side-management, which is the only effective way to incorporate more sporadic sources of renewable energy into the grid.

Sure - if the kettle goes on at 8.23, I was watching the soccer, and if it went on at 8.31, I was watching Fair City, and maybe the marketing gurus can hit me with targeted ads, just like Google does, but I can't really imagine that anyone is bothered... Come on in Big brother and sit on the couch beside Google and my Super-Valu club card (which will notice when its time for me to buy hair colouring):)

Quentin - any news on when the meters will actually get Smart and do time based pricing ?

Heroditas

Bluefang wrote: »

Delay having one of these installed at all costs - the data bit-streams emited from a smart meter are transmitted by means of being superimposed on the power lines, directly back to monitoring stations much like the latest "smart plugs" for transamitting data around a domestic dwelling via the house wiring.

This enables the supplier to hit a user with more precise tariffs depending on time of day usage (and not for the good of the consumer let it be said), and can also tell the supplier a lot more that just this.

You will be inviting big brother into your home.

Hope this sheds some light.....

Sorry but the bit about the data being transmitted via power lines is nonsense.

The Big Brother bit is also nonsense too. Nobody really gives two hoots about people's "lifestyles" and Data Protection and personal data are being treated very seriously as part of the programme to ensure that privacy is not compromised.
At the end of the day, it's measurement of electricity and gas usage, not a determination of how people lead their lives.
Some people really get paranoid about the strangest of things.

Heroditas

fclauson wrote: »

Quentin - any news on when the meters will actually get Smart and do time based pricing ?

Decision papers were due out from the CER last Friday but they appear to have been delayed.
Meters are due to start rolling out at the end of 2015. No decision has been made concerning when time of use tariffs will be implemented but it'll initially be a fairly big-standard day/night/peak structure for the first few years.

fclauson

Heroditas wrote: »

Sorry but the bit about the data being transmitted via power lines is nonsense.

The Big Brother bit is also nonsense too. Nobody really gives two hoots about people's "lifestyles" and Data Protection and personal data are being treated very seriously as part of the programme to ensure that privacy is not compromised.
At the end of the day, it's measurement of electricity and gas usage, not a determination of how people lead their lives.
Some people really get paranoid about the strangest of things.

So I have been involved in some work with suppliers of solutions to the power companies and that lifestyle Dara us exactly what they are after because they can then mine that data and provide services to you

Plus they e can compete with the other network providers because they can send data services via the power lines

These units will report back continuous power usage which so that energy providers can better manage the network enduring power is being delivered to where it's needed

gctest50

Heroditas wrote: »

The Big Brother bit is also nonsense too. Nobody really gives two hoots about people's "lifestyles" and

People who like breaking into houses would.

They would be very happy if they had their hands data that showed when houses were empty

Heroditas

fclauson wrote: »

So I have been involved in some work with suppliers of solutions to the power companies and that lifestyle Dara us exactly what they are after because they can then mine that data and provide services to you

Plus they e can compete with the other network providers because they can send data services via the power lines

These units will report back continuous power usage which so that energy providers can better manage the network enduring power is being delivered to where it's needed

The units will not report continuous power usage. The meters will record consumption on a half hourly basis and will be polled daily by ESB Networks via the MRSO. The data will then be sent to suppliers in a similar format to the current 341 market message.

Also there is only one network operator - ESB Networks so your talk of "other network providers" is off the mark.
PLC is not the preferred mass market solution.

Finally, a detailed PIA is being drafted as part of the programme to ensure data protection compliance and people's privacy is respected.
If a burglar wants to rob someone's house there's easier ways to find out if the person is away than hacking into a secure network and analysing raw consumption data.
They can just ring the bloody doorbell, same as they do now.

fclauson

Heroditas wrote: »

The units will not report continuous power usage. The meters will record consumption on a half hourly basis and will be polled daily by ESB Networks via the MRSO. The data will then be sent to suppliers in a similar format to the current 341 market message.

Also there is only one network operator - ESB Networks so your talk of "other network providers" is off the mark.
PLC is not the preferred mass market solution.

Finally, a detailed PIA is being drafted as part of the programme to ensure data protection compliance and people's privacy is respected.
If a burglar wants to rob someone's house there's easier ways to find out if the person is away than hacking into a secure network and analysing raw consumption data.
They can just ring the bloody doorbell, same as they do now.

thanks for this - I have been looking at other European markets and what I have positioned is what is happening there - so no doubt over time will happen here in Ireland

Heroditas

fclauson wrote: »

thanks for this - I have been looking at other European markets and what I have positioned is what is happening there - so no doubt over time will happen here in Ireland

That's a completely unfounded assumption to be making.

fclauson

Heroditas wrote: »

That's a completely unfounded assumption to be making.

with other elements of the "family silver" being sold off then its probably just a matter of time before this gets added to the list or more importantly they look at ways of making money once the capability to deliver such services is available.

Heroditas

fclauson wrote: »

with other elements of the "family silver" being sold off then its probably just a matter of time before this gets added to the list or more importantly they look at ways of making money once the capability to deliver such services is available.

Again, that's just unsubstantiated personal opinion that is not grounded in any basis of reality.
The smart meter is simply a method of recording half hour consumption data. It in itself will not deliver any services above and beyond that.
There seems to be a large misunderstanding among many people as to what a smart meter will actually be capable of. At the end of the day, it's just a meter. Networks don't need extremely granular data on a real-time basis to manage the network. They already can monitor real-time demand on a macro level and at various stages in the distribution network.
I would strongly recommend that people read the decision papers when they are released in the near future.

fclauson

Heroditas wrote: »

Again, that's just unsubstantiated personal opinion that is not grounded in any basis of reality.
The smart meter is simply a method of recording half hour consumption data. It in itself will not deliver any services above and beyond that.
There seems to be a large misunderstanding among many people as to what a smart meter will actually be capable of. At the end of the day, it's just a meter. Networks don't need extremely granular data on a real-time basis to manage the network. They already can monitor real-time demand on a macro level and at various stages in the distribution network.
I would strongly recommend that people read the decision papers when they are released in the near future.

So here is an example of where smart meter is going http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57576712-93/silicon-valley-city-offers-free-wi-fi-via-smart-meters/

Heroditas

fclauson wrote: »

So here is an example of where smart meter is going http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57576712-93/silicon-valley-city-offers-free-wi-fi-via-smart-meters/

That's not happening here so it has zero relevance.

fclauson

Heroditas wrote: »

That's not happening here so it has zero relevance.

Yet

Heroditas

fclauson wrote: »

Yet

The solution is going to be predominantly GSM based.
For someone who claims to have been working with suppliers of solutions to power companies, you're completely out of touch with what is proposed and intended for this programme in Ireland.

djpbarry

Heroditas wrote: »

There seems to be a large misunderstanding among many people as to what a smart meter will actually be capable of. At the end of the day, it's just a meter.

Yep – all we’re talking about is providing exactly the same data that conventional meter readings provide, but at higher temporal resolution.

fclauson wrote: »

So here is an example of where smart meter is going http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57576712-93/silicon-valley-city-offers-free-wi-fi-via-smart-meters/

Free Wifi?!? The evil bastards.

If you’re so concerned, then just don’t use the free wifi whenever you happen to find yourself in Santa Clara. Problem solved.

Heroditas

djpbarry wrote: »

Yep – all we’re talking about is providing exactly the same data that conventional meter readings provide, but at higher temporal resolution.
Free Wifi?!? The evil bastards.

If you’re so concerned, then just don’t use the free wifi whenever you happen to find yourself in Santa Clara. Problem solved.

Slightly unrelated but I always find it hilarious when people complain about civil liberties, "Big Brother" and data protection while using the internet to air their complaints!

Capt'n Midnight

Heroditas wrote: »

If a burglar wants to rob someone's house there's easier ways to find out if the person is away than hacking into a secure network and analysing raw consumption data.
They can just ring the bloody doorbell, same as they do now.

so it's back to the old trick of leaving the hall light on because it'll show up on the meter :pac:

Heroditas

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

so it's back to the old trick of leaving the hall light on because it'll show up on the meter :pac:

Use an LED and it'll barely register amongst all the noise with the fridge, freezer, etc! :pac:

ted1

Heroditas wrote: »

Sorry but the bit about the data being transmitted via power lines is nonsense.

The Big Brother bit is also nonsense too. Nobody really gives two hoots about people's "lifestyles" and Data Protection and personal data are being treated very seriously as part of the programme to ensure that privacy is not compromised.
At the end of the day, it's measurement of electricity and gas usage, not a determination of how people lead their lives.
Some people really get paranoid about the strangest of things.

This may be the protocol used http://www.opensmartgridprotocol.org/content/what-osgp

ted1

Heroditas wrote: »

The solution is going to be predominantly GSM based.
For someone who claims to have been working with suppliers of solutions to power companies, you're completely out of touch with what is proposed and intended for this programme in Ireland.

No it won't be, gsm is to expensive for mass roll out. They may use it remote locations were building a mesh isn't practical due to low density

Heroditas

ted1 wrote: »

No it won't be, gsm is to expensive for mass roll out. They may use it remote locations were building a mesh isn't practical due to low density

Ireland is a very "low density" country though, certainly when compared to other EU states.

ted1

Heroditas wrote: »

Ireland is a very "low density" country though, certainly when compared to other EU states.

I'm talking about one off houses in malin head and the likes

Heroditas

ted1 wrote: »

I'm talking about one off houses in malin head and the likes

The likes of those are unlikely to get smart meters

ted1

Heroditas wrote: »

The likes of those are unlikely to get smart meters

The plan is for everyone to get one.
What makes you think its GSM? Any of the smart meter meetings I've been too have ruled this out.

Capt'n Midnight

ted1 wrote: »

No it won't be, gsm is to expensive for mass roll out. They may use it remote locations were building a mesh isn't practical due to low density

I think I heard mention of zigbee being used but don't quote me on that as that might have been water meters.

Yes the industrial ones use GSM and power isn't exactly a problem. But what would the costs be country wide ?

Or maybe this will piggy back on the FTTH thing they are doing with vodafone ?

Heroditas

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

I think I heard mention of zigbee being used but don't quote me on that as that might have been water meters.

Yes the industrial ones use GSM and power isn't exactly a problem. But what would the costs be country wide ?

Or maybe this will piggy back on the FTTH thing they are doing with vodafone ?

ZigBee is being used for the meters to communicate with the HAN (home area network). The HAN will communicate to the in-home display and also to the WAN

ted1

I also heard word of Zigbee being used, its a cheap open source protocoll that easily builds a mesh and uses little power.

I've worked with zigbee meters before and there's certainly limitations to it and depending on traffic flow I would be cautious on using it large scale.
From my own professional experience I would prefer a wired connection. But if its to link up a in home display or other utility meters with basic info. Eg totalised register counts with time stamps then it may be suitable

Heroditas

Zigbee won't be used to communicate between every HAN and WAN.
it'll only be used to transmit half hour data with a time stamp from the meter to the HAN.

Happy Christmas!

fclauson

Heroditas wrote: »

That's not happening here so it has zero relevance.

fclauson wrote: »

Yet

or maybe it is happening

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/esb-will-roll-out-broadband-to-500000-homes-29942493.html

Heroditas

ted1 wrote: »

The plan is for everyone to get one.
What makes you think its GSM? Any of the smart meter meetings I've been too have ruled this out.

Just looking back on some material and during the trials, ESBN wanted to use GPRS/3G for the Wide Area Network to reduce the required infrastructure and complexity of network installation etc.

ted1

fclauson wrote: »

or maybe it is happening

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/esb-will-roll-out-broadband-to-500000-homes-29942493.html

ESB are lying Fibre for Vodafone Cavan will be the first place to get it. there hoping to tget the cable classed as elctric so they get automatic way leave.

fclauson

ted1 wrote: »

ESB are lying Fibre for Vodafone Cavan will be the first place to get it. there hoping to tget the cable classed as elctric so they get automatic way leave.

I believe they will also "wrap" it around overhead cables - this is what has already happened on the High Voltage cables to distribute the network across the country

(look at any high voltage pylon and see if you can see a spiral wrap around one of the cables)