Dell Nightmare

GarIT

I have a 15 month old Dell laptop Which has been repaired twice by Dell, once in August 2011 and once in March 2012. Both times it was the same issue. The issue has reoccured a third time and Dell are insisting they want to try to repair it again. Is there anything I can do or do I just have to let them. I don't want another repair which will only last about 3 or 4 months. I thought I could demand a refund or replacement at this stage but I got a call from Dell's legal team and they have said that they can repair it or they will go to court. What do I do?

Procrastastudy

Go to court.

15 months is the worrying aspect of this though. How long was the warranty what is the issue?

GarIT

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Go to court.

15 months is the worrying aspect of this though. How long was the warranty what is the issue?

The warranty was a year, the graphics card is faulty, the graphics card is built into the motherboard so the whole insides of the laptop need to be replaced (again).

Procrastastudy

GarIT wrote: »

The warranty was a year, the graphics card is faulty, the graphics card is built into the motherboard so the whole insides of the laptop need to be replaced (again).

If its genuinely the same fault - eg not different problems with the same thing - you might have win in the SmCC but I really don't know after 15 months if they only give a 12 month warranty.

As we all know warranty limits are simply what the manufacturer deems reasonable - not perhaps - what the court will. I'd personaly look for some written assurance that if it goes wrong again witrhin 12 months from repair they will repair it again.

Hopefully someone else will give you a more definative answer.

Jarren

Repair
If you request a repair of a faulty product instead of rejecting it, it should be a permanent repair. If the same fault occurs again, then you should be entitled to a replacement or refund. If you are not happy with the retailer’s offer to repair the item, you can reject it. But if you do this, you may have to use the Small Claims process if you want to take the matter further.

http://www.nca.ie/nca/faulty-goods

GarIT

I have photographic evidence that shows its the same problem, I also have proof I emailed them three weeks ago (to the email they game me last time) about the problem I'm having now and it was ignored. Dell have confimed it is the same problem as well as the laptop giving the same error code.

You name says law student so you probably know better than me but I thought that "repairs must be perminent" made the "must last for a reasonable amount of time" irrelevant if it's the same problem.

I actually just checked my records and the first time I contacted them about this problem was 2 months and three weeks after the second time they fixed it.

Procrastastudy

GarIT wrote: »

I have photographic evidence that shows its the same problem, I also have proof I emailed them three weeks ago (to the email they game me last time) about the problem I'm having now and it was ignored. Dell have confimed it is the same problem as well as the laptop giving the same error code.

You name says law student so you probably know better than me but I thought that "repairs must be perminent" made the "must last for a reasonable amount of time" irrelevant if it's the same problem.

I actually just checked my records and the first time I contacted them about this problem was 2 months and three weeks after the second time they fixed it.

I am a law student and I can tell you that everything is relative

Its probably the biggest strength and at the same time the biggest weakness of the common law system. Permanant doesn't mean forever it just means to last the life of the product. Note thats my interpretation but some Judge somewhere may have made a different decision - we'd have to have a conversation about court reporting and to continue this massive tangent however

15 months on a laptop imo is getting to the point where I wouldn't stake any money on go to the SmCC. That said the SmCC is only €25 and they can't take your house so rock on... they might not be in the mood to be co-operative in your repair if you do so however.

gerryk

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

15 months is the worrying aspect of this though. How long was the warranty what is the issue?

Warranty or not, a laptop should be expected to give trouble-free service for longer than 15 months.

the_syco

GarIT wrote: »

I have photographic evidence that shows its the same problem

How do you know that the problem both times was the "graphics card"?

foggy_lad

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

If its genuinely the same fault - eg not different problems with the same thing - you might have win in the SmCC but I really don't know after 15 months if they only give a 12 month warranty.

As we all know warranty limits are simply what the manufacturer deems reasonable - not perhaps - what the court will. I'd personaly look for some written assurance that if it goes wrong again witrhin 12 months from repair they will repair it again.

Hopefully someone else will give you a more definative answer.

A laptop should last a reasonable amount of time! Across the EU the minimum period for electronic goods is 2 years but in Ireland the period is what is considered reasonable considering several factors including the price paid and how the product is used etc.

Disregard anything Dell tell you about their warranty as they don't have regard for your statutory rights, Your STATUTORY RIGHTS superceed any warranty offered by dell whether free or paid for.

You are at this point entitled to reject the laptop (because their attempt to repair it has failed) and look for a replacement or a refund but this must be sought from the shop/retailer if you did not buy directly from Dell.

Generally people seem to have good luck with such cases in the small claims court with most companies either not responding at all or just caving in once they get the notice from the court that you have filed a claim. Do you think Dell are going to pay a solicitor to travel to your local courthouse and try to tell a Judge that they are being more than reasonable when in fact they are driving a coach n four through your statutory rights?

OP I also doubt the call you got was from any legal professional more likely just another customer care person who is tasked with trying to get customers to accept endless repairs untill the reasonable time in which they can seek a refund or replacement has been exhausted.

GarIT

the_syco wrote: »

ow do you know that the problem both times was the "graphics card"?

The screen goes black and then comes back on with the colours messed up and a message comes up saying the graphics card failed but has recovered but it never right until after its restarted. Other times I get a blue screen saying Graphics card failure recovery timedout.

Procrastastudy

gerryk wrote: »

Warranty or not, a laptop should be expected to give trouble-free service for longer than 15 months.

Agreed but it all ways comes down to how much money you are willing to put on it. As it stands they have given him the options of it being fixed outside of warranty or take your chances in court.

In the ideal world of course he'd win... in fact it would never need to go that far. One sec while I check... no I've just looked out the window and it's still the real world sadly.

kippy

So basicilly the motherboard has been replaced twice already (since the graphics chip is integrated onto the board) and the same issue has occured again after a few months?
That's very strange.
I would question a few things.
1. When you use the laptop do you generally use it on a solid hard surface, making sure the air vents are free and accessible or
2. do you us it on a soft flexible surface such as a bed, cushion?

If they have actually replaced the motherboard twice already I would suggest that the issue is not with the board at all and possibly down to some other component or indeed piece of software, OR some aspect of how you are using the machine is causing the issue to reoccur after a few months (Overheading of the laptop specificilly)

To me, it looks like the root cause of the fault has not been diagnosed correctly and this is the main issue.

Procrastastudy

foggy_lad wrote: »

A laptop should last a reasonable amount of time! Across the EU the minimum period for electronic goods is 2 years but in Ireland the period is what is considered reasonable considering several factors including the price paid and how the product is used etc.

I'm afraid you have misunderstood that. There was a European directive ensuring all member states allowed claims for upto 2 years. As Ireland allows claimes for upto six years it does not apply here. People on this forum frequently confuse statute of limitations with warranty periods.

There was a case in the UK against a printer manufacturer where the court found that a five year old printer should be replaced even though it had a 1 year warranty because of the number of times it had been used. As have said everything is relative.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Disregard anything Dell tell you about their warranty as they don't have regard for your statutory rights, Your STATUTORY RIGHTS superceed any warranty offered by dell whether free or paid for.

You are at this point entitled to reject the laptop (because their attempt to repair it has failed) and look for a replacement or a refund but this must be sought from the shop/retailer if you did not buy directly from Dell.

Absolute advise like this is never a good idea. Dell have simply said we are willing to do X if you want Y we have to go to the correct forum - a court - to decide. Yes they are playing hardball a bit. Are they bluffing? Who knows maybe they are maybe they are not. Maybe you're a better poker player than me Foggy.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Generally people seem to have good luck with such cases in the small claims court with most companies either not responding at all or just caving in once they get the notice from the court that you have filed a claim. Do you think Dell are going to pay a solicitor to travel to your local courthouse and try to tell a Judge that they are being more than reasonable when in fact they are driving a coach n four through your statutory rights?

OP I also doubt the call you got was from any legal professional more likely just another customer care person who is tasked with trying to get customers to accept endless repairs untill the reasonable time in which they can seek a refund or replacement has been exhausted.

While I agree - a lot of companies don't even bother responding to the SmCC be careful with a company like Dell. If its the SmCC they will simply need to respond in writing. It probably will never see a Solicitor or even a reasonably paid in house counsel which I'm sure they have at least one of on staff. Also Law degrees are not any guarantee of wealth - infact the exact oppisite - most people with law degrees end up in fairly mundane jobs such as the escalations departments of retailers and mail order companies. Even if the person you spoke to doesn't have legal training the guidelines they are following could very well be written by someone who really knows their stuff.

Don't confuse this for saying don't do it. I'm just suggesting you weigh your options carefully.

GarIT

kippy wrote: »

So basicilly the motherboard has been replaced twice already (since the graphics chip is integrated onto the board) and the same issue has occured again after a few months?
That's very strange.
I would question a few things.
1. When you use the laptop do you generally use it on a solid hard surface, making sure the air vents are free and accessible or
2. do you us it on a soft flexible surface such as a bed, cushion?

If they have actually replaced the motherboard twice already I would suggest that the issue is not with the board at all and possibly down to some other component or indeed piece of software, OR some aspect of how you are using the machine is causing the issue to reoccur after a few months (Overheading of the laptop specificilly)

To me, it looks like the root cause of the fault has not been diagnosed correctly and this is the main issue.

The motherbaord was replaced once, the first time they did a repair they just re installed everything. For the purposes of the SSC I would consider that an attempted reapir. I only use it on my desk, I fix laptops so I know all that. I've read that in this particular laptop the fan isnt as powerful as it should be and the GPU overheats no matter what you do.

kippy

GarIT wrote: »

I've read that in this particular laptop the fan isnt as powerful as it should be and the GPU overheats no matter what you do.

So in theory, even if the laptop was replaced with the same model, wouldn't you end up with the same problems?

It is rather strange that the first repair (reinstalling everything) actually resolved the issue for a number of months - particularly if the issue was with the physical graphics chip............indeed it is rather strange that replacing the board resolved the issue for a few months the second time.


I am not saying you are in the wrong here, the opposite in fact, it's very poor troubleshooting and fault finding from a Dell point of view - indeed if there is a known issue with the machine and this effects every machine of that type, then surely Dell have a case to answer, not just to you but to all owners of the same machine.
I'm not sure exactly what your best course of action is. I would probably take the repair as I dont think the SCC will be able to sort this issue out for you.

GarIT

The complaints depratment rang me, I said I thought the legal department was supposed to ring me and he said "we also are the legal department" so it does seem a bit dodgy.

This is where it gets complicated. They say because it was purchased from their business department that statutory rights don't apply. What happened was a friend bought the laptop for me using his business(just with dell) account because I couldnt buy from their business range. 21% VAT was paid on it and it was never used in any company, it wasn't even the companys financial accounts that it went through, just their online account with dell. Whaere do I stand now?

i71jskz5xu42pb

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

you might have win in the SmCC but I really don't know after 15 months if they only give a 12 month warranty

As foggy_lad and a few others have pointed out Dell's warranty has nothing to do with a buyer's statutory rights. I get that you're trying to be helpful but offering an opinion on stuff you're obviously not sure of (and is easily verified) does more harm than good.

Meesared

Out of interest is the GPU Nvidia?

GarIT

Meesared wrote: »

Out of interest is the GPU Nvidia?

It is. Its switchable though. If I turn the laptop on power saver it only uses Intel graphics but that's pointless.

Meesared

What model of Nvidia?

GarIT

kippy wrote: »

So in theory, even if the laptop was replaced with the same model, wouldn't you end up with the same problems?

It is rather strange that the first repair (reinstalling everything) actually resolved the issue for a number of months - particularly if the issue was with the physical graphics chip............

It didn't actually fix it the first time. It just might only happen once a week or something. I've noticed with both motherboards it becomes more frequent as time goes on. What happened was after the re install I had school then exams and I didn't get around untill getting it sorted just before the warranty ran out. Its not a major issue but its a pain to loose everything you are doing and having to start again.

GarIT

Meesared wrote: »

What model of Nvidia?

330m gt I think

Meesared

Ah ok I was just going to mention about the G84 and 86 chip issue, but yours wouldn't be included in that.

Procrastastudy

Malcolm Numerous Banister wrote: »

As foggy_lad and a few others have pointed out Dell's warranty has nothing to do with a buyer's statutory rights. I get that you're trying to be helpful but offering an opinion on stuff you're obviously not sure of (and is easily verified) does more harm than good.

Perhaps you should actually read the entire post before you try and be helpful - quoting out of context - doing more harm than good. Citizens Advice is all well and good but a court decides what is reasonable not you or I or the manfacturer. As these cases go unreported on the whole, your assertion that 15 month is reasonable is just as valid as mine that it may not be.

I've never given an absolute as some of you guys seem to be doing - which is dangerous advise even if you do know exactly what you are talking about which clearly no one as yet does. As I'm clearly derailing this is the last post I will make and leave the OP with this.

Becareful - you may very well win in SmCC - I hope you do. If you don't then you are going to end up footing the repair bill yourself plus €25 for the claim. The consensus here is people think it should last longer than 15 months. I personally have my doubts. Please note this opinion is based your statutory rights. Just becuase you bought it through their business operation doesn't mean that the majority of rights won't still apply - even if some of the consumer related stuff does become moot.

One thing I will say I'm not 100% on is if they can establish its a Business to Business Sale you won't be able to use the SmCC procedure - I'm very doubtful thats the case but something you may need to look into.

Thoie

GarIT wrote: »

This is where it gets complicated. They say because it was purchased from their business department that statutory rights don't apply. What happened was a friend bought the laptop for me using his business(just with dell) account because I couldnt buy from their business range. 21% VAT was paid on it and it was never used in any company, it wasn't even the companys financial accounts that it went through, just their online account with dell. Whaere do I stand now?

Unfortunately as it was sold and bought through a business account, you're not eligible to apply through the Small Claims Court (even though the machine never went to a company). The terms and conditions on their site are different for consumers and companies, and your statutory rights are different as you bought it as a company.

The only possible way you could be a "consumer" in this situation is if you bought it from your friend's company, but in that case it would be them you'd be taking to SCC, not Dell, and your friend's company would be supposed to repair/replace/refund.

the_syco

GarIT wrote: »

The screen goes black and then comes back on with the colours messed up and a message comes up saying the graphics card failed but has recovered but it never right until after its restarted.

I'd say the fault is heat related. If you google the laptop, you may find if others have had the same problem.

GarIT wrote: »

I've read that in this particular laptop the fan isnt as powerful as it should be and the GPU overheats no matter what you do.

Sounds about right.

GarIT wrote: »

a friend bought the laptop for me using his business(just with dell) account because I couldnt buy from their business range.

Shakey ground. Don't know if Dell even have to deal with you, as you didn't buy the laptop, and as a business bout it, you won't be able to claim through the SCC.

Thoie wrote: »

The only possible way you could be a "consumer" in this situation is if you bought it from your friend's company, but in that case it would be them you'd be taking to SCC, not Dell, and your friend's company would be supposed to repair/replace/refund.

This. You should get legal advice, as you could get your friend into trouble.

Thoie

Thoie wrote: »

The only possible way you could be a "consumer" in this situation is if you bought it from your friend's company, but in that case it would be them you'd be taking to SCC, not Dell, and your friend's company would be supposed to repair/replace/refund.

the_syco wrote: »

This. You should get legal advice, as you could get your friend into trouble.

Sorry, in case it wasn't clear, I wasn't recommending this, particularly if you want to keep your friend. It's something you'd need to discuss very honestly with him and getting his input before even considering that. If I was the friend and had done you a favour to get you a machine you wanted, I'd crucify you if you then pulled that stunt.

GarIT

It actually wasn't a friend, it was a boardsie I know through the Comp & Tech forum. His company didn't really buy it. I paid for it but Dell don't sell business model laptops to normal consumers so we stuck his business' name on it. I have the original reciepts and everything but I decided to just go for the repair as its simpler at this stage and it should last untill the student grant comes in.

I don't think anything was done wrong. I know we lied to Dell but I don't think that has any legal implications. He never had any receipts or anything so he couldn't have claimed anything back or anything like that.

Thoie

GarIT wrote: »

It actually wasn't a friend, it was a boardsie I know through the Comp & Tech forum. His company didn't really buy it. I paid for it but Dell don't sell business model laptops to normal consumers so we stuck his business' name on it. I have the original reciepts and everything but I decided to just go for the repair as its simpler at this stage and it should last untill the student grant comes in.

I don't think anything was done wrong. I know we lied to Dell but I don't think that has any legal implications. He never had any receipts or anything so he couldn't have claimed anything back or anything like that.

Dell's not going to hunt you down or anything, but as it was bought from their business side, you don't have "consumer rights" - it's considered a business to business transaction. As such, options like the small claims court are closed to you. <-- Turns out that's wrong - see next post.

slimjimmc

Thoie wrote: »

Dell's not going to hunt you down or anything, but as it was bought from their business side, you don't have "consumer rights" - it's considered a business to business transaction. As such, options like the small claims court are closed to you.

Actually the SCC has been dealing with business disputes since 2009, so that avenue could be very much available.

GarIT

slimjimmc wrote: »

Actually the SCC has been dealing with business disputes since 2009, so that avenue could be very much available.

The laptops gone now anyway, they collected it this morning.

Procrastastudy

No reason not to give it a whirl if you're not happy when its back - at least you've got it repaired which was what I was worried about

I still think 15 months is pushing it on a laptop but as I said others disagree...

I also said I'd shut up... oh well.

foggy_lad

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

No reason not to give it a whirl if you're not happy when its back - at least you've got it repaired which was what I was worried about

I still think 15 months is pushing it on a laptop but as I said others disagree...

I also said I'd shut up... oh well.

Seriously do you work for dell in any capacity? You seem to be suggesting it is not worth pursuing any case when a laptop is at least 15 months old because that is more than the reasonable lifespan of the laptop. You seem to think the reasonable lifespan of any product is dictated by the manufacturer warranty and can be dictated by the industry.

Procrastastudy

Foggy - I realise there is always the temptation to over compensate in these forums but you are taking my comments out of context. At no point have I said don't try take it the SmCC.

Can you give me a couple of cases that would back up any of the claims you have made? Can you produce any guideline time frames on what is reasonable?

We don't know if the OP uses the Laptop everyday for 16 hours or turns it on once a week to check his e-mail. The use of the product would be taken into consideration.

Giving absolute advice when you don't know the outcome - especailly when it involves a court is a bad idea. You yourself personally have managed to confuse a european directive that a) doesn't apply to Ireland b) would limit the persons statuatory rights from six to two years if it did.

In my second post I pointed out that we all knew that warranty periods where only an indication of what the manufacturer deems reasonable - if you wish to argue with me and point out where I am wrong I welcome it - please do limit yourself to where I'm wrong though, not simply disagreeing with you.

foggy_lad

You think "15 months for a laptop is pushing it" as far as reasonable lifetime goes despite you stating yourself that you don't know anything about how the laptop was used but most laptops will last for closer to 4-6 years and even longer when used well throughout their lifetime.

Take a washing machine for an example and the reasonable life is around 3-6 years depending on usage price paid etc so a top of the range machine may only last 3 years when only used twice a week while a €250 one used twice most days may well last for 5 years. If the cheaper machine broke after 3 years i would think it was time for it to be breaking down but i would expect the other machine to last longer without serious issue.

how long would you think the reasonable lifetime of a €500 television should be? another 15 months or would you expect it to last longer?

Here is a thread about a laptop that was 3.5 years old which was fixed by apple of all companies.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056068862&page=3

ejmaztec

There's an awful lot of flannel in this thread, and I think the world and his dog knows that 15 months is an extremely unrealistic lifespan for a laptop, or probably 90% of other consumer items for that matter.

Procrastastudy

I'm not sure why you would cite apple - they are generally know for their service - these days at least. To be fair they can afford it. I also don't see any reference to it going to court - I also see at least one person stating that replacing certain components after 18 months seems reasonable. Knowing a bit about computers a GFX card would not be such a componant to be fair.

Incidently someone there has pointed out the statute of limitations and explained it - as seems have to happen ever few thread here. Again an example of a misconception "90% of people and their dogs" seem to have.

GarIT if you do decide to go to the SmCC do let us know how it turns out. It would be better to get a gauge rather then relying on people just pulling stuff out of the ether and saying its copper bottomed. Isn't it a monty python sketch where they do into the woods looking for the "people that say" or something.

I would expect about 3-4 years out of a €500 TV - thats a fairly cheap model with no moving parts. Probably less out of a washing machine due to its mechanical nature and less still on a laptop given the nature at which technology moves on.

I wouldn't be betting €200 or so on the SmCC finding in my favour after 15 months thats for sure - which is several people have asked the OP to do giving almost absolute assurances that he would win. Your opinion is different and I respect that - at no point have I quoted you out of context reversing your meaning in an attempt to win the argument.

Please do bear in mind I am aware of cases where people have been sucessful after 5 years. Not everyone is as lucky though.

EDIT: Ah found it - I am very dubious that a registar in the SmCC would make a comment outside of an offical judgement. I don't doubt for one second though that the presure of a SmCC paperwork arriving at the office would perhaps influance them in a certain direction. Please bear in mind though the OP was already told by Dell that they'd be happy to go to court.

kippy

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

I would expect about 3-4 years out of a €500 TV - thats a fairly cheap model with no moving parts. Probably less out of a washing machine due to its mechanical nature and less still on a laptop given the nature at which technology moves on.

The nature at which technology moves on has or should have nothing to do with the expectancy of the hardware within that laptop lasting more than a very poor 15 months.......
Indeed, the life expectancy of a washing machine should be far more than 4-5 years (and generally is), indeed the very fact that the machine is mechanical is irrelevant.
Your expectations of 3-4 years out of a €500 are also very low to be honest.
*The logic you are using is completely flawed, being honest.

The OP would be able to get something through the SMCC however there are a few slight complications here. He should, in my opinion, continue to chase Dell to get this resolved to his satisfaction as 15 months, in my opinion is, nowhere near long enough to expect from equipment such as that.

GarIT

I got the laptop back after they said they would replace the motherboard. The report on it said "Heatsink Cleaned" which is not a replacement motherboard like they said. I went to see how the laptop was anyway and when I took it out of the box the bottom pannel of the laptop fell off, they forgot to put the screws back in. Also none of the lights on the laptop work.

So I rang Dell to complain and this time when they were looking for details they asked for the name of the company it was originally registered to. I told them it wasn't, they said it was so I got the original reciept and read off the name and address on the reciept. The person on the phone said, our computers say the laptop was purchased by a business called... and then he reads off the first line of the original shipping address. I told him thats a place not a company but he just insisted on ignoring that and moving onto the, they went through the usual process and said they would repair the the laptop again (4th time).

Straight away I rang the person that ordered the laptop, he said he ordered the laptops over the phone and nothing was mentioned about a company, and vat was paid fully. Also I have the original and only receipt. I assumed he had used his business to get the laptops because he is self employed but it turns out whoever was on the phone taking the order must have put the first line of his address into the company name section on the order form.

I rang Dell back and got onto the legal department, the guy on the phone said that he was a lawyer but he didn't know how to deal with this, that they will look into it and the head of the legal team for Dell will call me tomorrow.

So the laptops were sold to us as regular customers (even though they dont sell these laptops to the public) and it was Dell that messed up their own forms. So I'm going to persue this and go for a full refund, the laptop hasn't been working properly since 4 months after its purchase and Dell have just completely messed up every time they tried to fix it.

Procrastastudy

I'd be suprised if you will get a full refund. At best you need to get the origonal purchaser to chase this as the contract is between him and Dell.

Lets say for the sake of argument I am entirely convinced a laptop should last five years. The fact that it is now 16 months old (over 1/4 the way though its life) is going to mean the best you can hope for is damages. Best of luck eitherway but don't assume this is cut and dried That said hopefully the shodyness of the work might outrage your local registar.

GarIT

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

I'd be suprised if you will get a full refund. At best you need to get the origonal purchaser to chase this as the contract is between him and Dell.

Lets say for the sake of argument I am entirely convinced a laptop should last five years. The fact that it is now 16 months old (over 1/4 the way though its life) is going to mean the best you can hope for is damages. Best of luck eitherway but don't assume this is cut and dried

I'll try anyway.

Procrastastudy

Best of luck and let us know how it turns out.

I suggest you get the person who bought it to sign off on the paperwork so they can't pull the old 'nothing to do with us trick' even if you fill it out and pay the fee. At the very least it'll show them you're not bluffing - hopefully you'll get a replacement.