Character question

recnib

So ive been watching the threads, some of the Youtube stuff, and I'm seeing a strong focus on a few characters.... so much.... BISON !

Well anyway this is just another random question to familiarise myself with the community. Who do you guys use ?

My record will have you believe that I main Cody, this was true but out of nowhere i just suddenly lost my ability with him, i tried practicing combos and that but it just wasnt the same :P

So at the moment im focusing on Gen, awesome character IMO, i like the play style and combos, still have to learn them of course :P

Let me know so i have an idea of whats going on aroud me, and it might be nice to have some level of preparation whenever i can get to a tournament

ladnopoka

cody requires so much skill bro

recnib

true

Sairus

recnib wrote: »

true

No it's not. Don't encourage him.

Rose is the best.

recnib

I beleive the Tempest 12 footage says otherwise Sairus

Doctor DooM

Guile is the worst character ever. Don't use him.

Anyone who ever wins a fight with him must be gdlk.

K.O.Kiki

Contrary to what Japan says, Adon is actually low-tier.
But he's also the most loved character in the game.
You should totally learn him.
No one could possibly hate on Adon.

recnib

Doom you are Godlike And i like Adon, i actually was getting my ass beat by a Guile while using Adon, and in both rounds he had nearly full health while i had barely any left, each time i trapped him in a corner to even it out and ended each one by going through an EX boom that he did in panic Also at one point i used Jaguar Revolver, it only hit once since he was jumping over me, for the sole purpose of keeping him in the corner :P

Misty Chaos

Everyone tell me Juri is a bit on the pyscho side! :P

Jun_DP101

ladnopoka wrote: »

cody requires so much skill bro

from the charter:

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Posts that are just complete nonsense will be deleted.

get on it

Ramza

Yang/Seth mainly, bit of other chars for laugh now and then

recnib

I like Yang and Seth, they're both very good, I mean we all know what poongko can do with Seth :P And as for Yang, watch some games by ACQUA0316 on YF's channel, it's scary O_O

And Misty I'm not sure what you mean about Juri being on the psycho side :P , but from what I've seen if you know enough she can be a beast of a character and an absolute pain in the ass to deal with.

Leprekaun

Shotos are my mains. I'm trying to get good with Oni but his short range hadoken makes it a bit annoying to use for zoning. I'm still trying out different characters so if you meet me online, you'll often find me using Balrog or Guile. Even though Guile isn't my main, for some reason, I have a good win/lose ratio with him compared to my other characters. I guess playing Guile forces me to be more patient :P. Balrog is great as well because he's a hard hitter, crap at long range but once you're in close, he can make a world of pain! And my main strength is close fighting, even when using Shotos, so Balrog, and possibly Fei Long, suit my play style.

recnib

Im still unsure of close range fighting, i have a lot of trouble getting in and starting combos, and im always being crossed up. I try to ant air them but i hardly ever get it right :P

mackg

recnib wrote: »

Im still unsure of close range fighting, i have a lot of trouble getting in and starting combos, and im always being crossed up. I try to ant air them but i hardly ever get it right :P

Anti air them with what? If they are crossing you up on your wake up you might be better off to just block.

K.O.Kiki

If you're not anti-airing with Cody (except on wake-up) you're playing him wrong.

b+MP HEY

Neeknak

Primary is Rose, secondary is Juri or Evil Ryu. Started pissing about with a bunch of others in recent months too.

J0hnick

I play Guy, badly.

FoamyMushroom

Havent played in any tournaments in a while.. work calls.. But work ended so

I mainly play Ibuki, aint really got a back up. I can play an alright Ryu thats bout it.

Danonino.

I play Guy, unsafely.


I also cant resist picking T.Hawk lately even though I'm fecking useless with the big galoot. A giant native american pretending to be an airplane appeals to me for some reason. I tend to play while making airplane diving noises and shouting pew,pew,pew while mashing jab.




My call would be to stick with Gen. I wish I had stuck out relearning him on stick instead of ****ing out and moving onto a new characters. Plus that red/blue mask alt he has is pure win.

recnib

Haha i must get his alts

To the OP: I recently went through a process of choosing a main, and settled on Ryu, because he suits my playstyle, is quite well rounded and has a bit of everything. He's also a huge amount of fun to play with and doesn't have a huge execution barrier to get to a half-decent level. I'm currently busy burning his moves & combos into my muscle memory. I'm still rubbish, but I'm improving....

If you're trying to settle on a main, i would look at tier lists like this one from arcadia magazine in Japan recently, and play around with characters in the upper half of the table, looking for one that suits your style.

Personally speaking, I would steer clear of the lower tiers. Not everyone will agree, but i figure, why handicap your chances of doing well right from day 1 by picking a bottom tier character?

PPC

Deleted User wrote: »

Personally speaking, I would steer clear of the lower tiers. Not everyone will agree, but i figure, why handicap your chances of doing well right from day 1 by picking a bottom tier character?

At our level of play it doesn't make too much of a difference what tier you pick.

UberPrinny_Baal

I play Deejay because my body can handle the rhythm.

I think Gen is awesome though. If I didn't find the concept of stance-changing mid-combo to be so daunting I would definitely play him more for fun.

Deleted User wrote: »

If you're trying to settle on a main, i would look at tier lists like
this one from arcadia magazine in Japan recently, and play around with characters in the upper half of the table, looking for one that suits your style.

Personally speaking, I would steer clear of the lower tiers. Not everyone will agree, but i figure, why handicap your chances of doing well right from day 1 by picking a bottom tier character?

I would pretty strongly disagree for two reasons

(1) Tiers change
(2) Good tier lists are written by all the top players, coming to some kind of consensus. Arcadia magazine tier lists are only ever written by one person (so are way more flawed and biased), and THAT particular tier list is uncredited, so we have no idea who wrote it

Doctor DooM

Deleted User wrote: »

Personally speaking, I would steer clear of the lower tiers. Not everyone will agree, but i figure, why handicap your chances of doing well right from day 1 by picking a bottom tier character?

I would say there's only maybe 10 people in the country who play to a level where the tier list can be applied. Even then, which tier list?

The top tier characters are by and large weaker than the lower ones unless you understand and can perform their safe jumps, set ups, options selects and mix ups. For example, if you're not able to do Akuma's demon flip set ups and vortex on command, you are effectively playing a weakened Ryu with a teleport. Most of Akuma's tippy topness comes from what you can do when you knock someone down.

When SF4 first came out you could see plenty of people placing top 8 with whatever character they felt like: Wouldn't happen now tbh because the top players ARE finding their feet with the best characters, but until you get to that level, I don't think you need to be all that pushed, and tbh if you're that good just pick up a top tier character when you get to that point

PPC

PPC wrote: »

At our level of play it doesn't make too much of a difference what tier you pick.

I don't agree. Sure there are a lot of finer points to any tier list that come into play at very high levels of execution, but you don't have to be at the very top level of play to feel the advantage/disadvantage you're at by picking a low/high tier character, otherwise you would see Dan winning regional tourneys and casuals games all over the place. I think as long as you're at a reasonable level of competency where you can exploit weaknesses in matchups, tiers will have some effect on the success you can expect to see.

For example, I started this game maining deejay, who is generally regarded as not really being a contender tier-wise, and switched to Ryu, and saw an instant improvement. Deejay doesn't have the tools to deal with a lot of stuff that happens very often in this game, regardless of player skill, hence he's lower tier. Ryu does (at least moreso), and as a direct result i was in a better position to compete, without undergoing any improvement in my own individual ability.

Besides all of this though, don't you play a game like Street Fighter with the intention to improve and eventually attain a higher level of ability? Maybe even get to the top level or near it? I do, and putting myself at a disadvantage from day one by picking a lesser character just seems strange to me. I'm not saying that's not valid, there are lots of different ways to approach picking your character, but for me, character design alone isn't enough.

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

Good tier lists are written by all the top players, coming to some kind of consensus. Arcadia magazine tier lists are only ever written by one person (so are way more flawed and biased), and THAT particular tier list is uncredited, so we have no idea who wrote it

No to split hairs with you, but i wasn't recommending that tier list specifically. I was just making the point that having an idea what the general concensus was about who was upper/lower/middle tier, and having an idea about a character's general limitations before choosing to main him or her was a good idea, rather than just saying "ooh i like the look of this smiley guy's pink outfit and his funny throw, I'll learn all his moves".

I agree with you that tier lists change over time, and will vary from source to source in their accuracy and impartiality, but they are also a good indicator of a wider concensus, once you read enough of them, from various sources.

Doctor DooM

No offence mack daddi but I literally think you don't know what a tier list is.



It's assuming that the players are high level ( higher than the best in this country).

It is literally irrelevant unless you're approaching that level.

recnib

Here's how I look at it lads. There are characters that will suit different people, for example, I couldn't imagine playing Dhalsim, but there are people who have no problem with him. For me personally, I like using Gen, i like the feel when i move and i like the moves, it fits me.

Tier lists mean nothing, they are different people's representations of which characters they think are the best and worst. In my personal opinion, every single character in every fighting game ever is godlike, people just need to know how to play them.

Scavenger XIII

This is going to go south in a hurry. :pac:

The Hound

Deleted User wrote: »

If you're trying to settle on a main, i would look at tier lists like this one from arcadia magazine in Japan recently, and play around with characters in the upper half of the table, looking for one that suits your style.

Thats not from Arcadia Magazine. Thats a French players personal opinion.

This is the Arcadia magazine tier list afaik:

A: Seth, Cammy, Fei Long, Adon
B: Ryu, Ken, Honda, Bison (Possibly meaning Boxer), Balrog (possibly meaning claw), Sagat, Vega (possibly meaning Dicktakor), C.Viper, Rufus, Akuma, Sakura, Ibuki, Makoto, Juri
C: Blanka, Zangief, Guile, Dhalsim, Abel, Rose, Gen. Guy, Cody, Dudely, Yun, Yang, Evil Ryu, Oni
Chun Li, El Fuerte, Gouken, Dan (Not last!!), T.Hawk, Dee-Jay, Hakan

Not that i agree with it. Just eh... saying

FutureGuy

The Hound wrote: »

Thats not from Arcadia Magazine. Thats a French players personal opinion.

This is the Arcadia magazine tier list afaik:

A: Seth, Cammy, Fei Long, Adon
B: Ryu, Ken, Honda, Bison (Possibly meaning Boxer), Balrog (possibly meaning claw), Sagat, Vega (possibly meaning Dicktakor), C.Viper, Rufus, Akuma, Sakura, Ibuki, Makoto, Juri
C: Blanka, Zangief, Guile, Dhalsim, Abel, Rose, Gen. Guy, Cody, Dudely, Yun, Yang, Evil Ryu, Oni
Chun Li, El Fuerte, Gouken, Dan (Not last!!), T.Hawk, Dee-Jay, Hakan

Not that i agree with it. Just eh... saying

That's a rediculous list. Dee-Jay is clearly better...(than T.Hawk) :P

Doctor DooM

Doctor DooM wrote: »

No offence mack daddi but I literally think you don't know what a tier list is.

It's assuming that the players are high level ( higher than the best in this country).

It is literally irrelevant unless you're approaching that level.

Wow. OK, I'm going to avoid the temptation to get into this in a big "keyboard-war"way, because i haven't got the time today, but i absolutely DO know what a tier list is, and furthermore i think your interpretation of what it is is flawed.

A tier list is assuming that both players are at an EQUALLY high level, and that their execution is sufficiently accomplished so as to be able to do anything their character is capable of at will (ie, very VERY good, probably better than any players in this country, as you contended).

The reason for this is that if both players are at the highest level of execution and skill, then theoretically, neither has an advantage over the other by way of their execution, their physical dexterity, their reading of the situation, etc, etc. The only differentiator that then remains is their choice of character, and the inbuilt strengths and weaknesses of that character, which, (again in theory) should be the deciding factor of the overall winner over ten matches, for that matchup. If you equalize every other variable in the equation, then the only factor that remains is the inate strengths and weaknesses in each character's design and move set, hence you have a (admittedly flawed and theoretical) way of gauging which character is better than another.

Tier lists are just a way of removing human skill limitations from the equation and looking purely at characters based on their inate strengths and weaknesses on an otherwise completely even playing field. They are a means of ranking the various characters in the game without taking into account the limitations of players, but the resulting character rankings absolutely DO apply to ordinary and lower level play.

mackg

Doctor DooM wrote: »

No offence mack daddi but I literally think you don't know what a tier list is.



It's assuming that the players are high level ( higher than the best in this country).

It is literally irrelevant unless you're approaching that level.

Deleted User wrote: »

Wow. OK, I'm going to avoid the temptation to get into this in a big "keyboard-war"way, because i haven't got the time today, but i absolutely DO know what a tier list is, and furthermore i think your interpretation of what it is is flawed.

A tier list is assuming that both players are at an EQUALLY high level, and that their execution is sufficiently accomplished so as to be able to do anything their character is capable of at will (ie, very VERY good, probably better than any players in this country, as you contended).

The reason for this is that if both players are at the highest level of execution and skill, then theoretically, neither has an advantage over the other by way of their execution, their physical dexterity, their reading of the situation, etc, etc. The only differentiator that then remains is their choice of character, and the inbuilt strengths and weaknesses of that character, which, (again in theory) should be the deciding factor of the overall winner over ten matches, for that matchup. If you equalize every other variable in the equation, then the only factor that remains is the inate strengths and weaknesses in each character's design and move set, hence you have a (admittedly flawed and theoretical) way of gauging which character is better than another.

Tier lists are just a way of removing human skill limitations from the equation and looking purely at characters based on their inate strengths and weaknesses on an otherwise completely even playing field. They are a means of ranking the various characters in the game without taking into account the limitations of players, but the resulting character rankings absolutely DO apply to ordinary and lower level play.

BURN!!! :pac:

Orim

Deleted User wrote: »

but the resulting character rankings absolutely DO apply to ordinary and lower level play.

I'm just going to pick up on this section because it is slightly flawed. I would tend to agree with that tier lists can be used at any level but the point is that some characters do require a high level of skill to use.

The Akuma example was a good one. Akuma has pretty consistently been high tier in SF4 but requires a lot of skill to use and can be very poor in the hands of lower skilled due to his low health. So the type of character needs to be taken into account and not just pick high tier because they are high tier.

Another good example is from 3S. Chun and Yun are pretty much even on the tier lists but Yun is a lot harder to use and would be a poor choice for a lower skilled player (I'm sure Ramza will tell me I'm fool for this.)

Of course, that doesn't mean you can't put in the work to get good with anyone but sometimes you just have to accept your limitations.

bush

Tier lists are poo

Orim

Orim wrote: »

I'm just going to pick up on this section because it is slightly flawed. I would tend to agree with that tier lists can be used at any level but the point is that some characters do require a high level of skill to use.

The Akuma example was a good one....

Yeah, I'd probably agree with you there, different characters definitely do become more viable at different points along the skill curve. Akuma would likely take a higher level of skill & execution to get very good with versus Ryu for example, and between two mid-level players of equal skill, I'm sure akuma wouldn't fare as well in that matchup as all the usual tier lists would suggest.

The point at which every character becomes more viable varies i suppose. Even the best tier lists are only an approximate guide, and i would say they are probably on a sliding scale in terms of accuracy as you descend further backwards in terms of player execution and skill. I certainly don't think they're irrelevant at all but the highest level of play, but they are maybe a little less accurate and to be taken with a bigger pinch of salt...

K.O.Kiki

Going by American tournaments, clearly Rufus is S-tier.

UberPrinny_Baal

Deleted User wrote: »

but the resulting character rankings absolutely DO apply to ordinary and lower level play.

You are mostly correct in your post (dat juicebox definition :pac:), but this bit is not always true, specifically about it being true down to low levels of play.

The main exception being: When the game is incredibly balanced, tiers don't matter at our level of play. AE2012 is incredibly balanced. The most debated thing about this one specifically is who the worst characters are. Nobody can agree on the bottom tier.

I'd question your Ryu VS Deejay thing in the following ways:
How do you define a massive improvement (or any at all)? What is your testing criteria for improvement? What's your sample size?

The most likely explanation in my mind is that you DIDN'T improve, just that you find Ryu easier and he might simply suit your playstyle better.
I can believe you ARE better with Ryu, but not that you became better.

If you want an example of Tier's vibrating down to the LOWEST levels of play, I can only think of broken-ass examples, like Meta Knight in Brawl. If you've never played it, just some quick examples: Single button press move (no directional input needed) that made you functionally invincible for as long as you mashed it it, juggles enemies for 1 hit kills and reflected projectiles. 5 jumps where most characters have 2. The ability to fly. Ridiculously tiny hurtbox.

Only stuff like THAT resonates down to the low levels. And even at that you could argue that noob Metaknight and top-tier player Metaknight are good for different reasons, and their respective players would look nothing alike. (This is another flavour of Doom's Akuma example, but Akuma is no Meta Knight )

Stuff that DOES impact low level play are game alterations more in line with what Sirlin did with HDR: Mash moves easier to do, inputs for reversals more lenient, damage not random etc etc

mackg wrote: »

BURN!!! :pac:

I don't think you know what a burn is :pac:

Dreddybajs

I pretty much stick to strong/higher-tier characters when I pick a game up. Usually I have a look at who the good characters are and try out the ones I think I'd like - they don't have to be the absolute best, just solid and suit my style of play.

I play Cammy in 2012 for those reasons, and as it happens she's one of the very best in the game as well. However, I still have trouble when I run into a lot of lower tier characters that see a lot of play in Ireland - Guile, Honda, Balrog, Deejay, Bison (though I don't think Bison or Rog are that bad).

The way 2012 is balanced, most characters are solid enough to seriously consider if you particularly like them imo, and even if you pick a top character you're still gonna have a few nightmare matchups to deal with (unless you're Fei :pac:).

Doctor DooM

Deleted User wrote: »

Tier lists are just a way of removing human skill limitations from the equation and looking purely at characters based on their inate strengths and weaknesses on an otherwise completely even playing field.

But see they don't: They remove human skill level assuming both players are amazing at the game: The Akuma example again.

My issue (which you took umbrage at, but I really didn't mean it that way, sorry) is that you're giving bad advice to someone new: If they pick up akuma, or viper, or Seth, they're going to get bodied for free as you NEED to be able to understand and perform at a relatively high level in order for them to compete.

Another, simpler, example: Remy from 3S. Nearly every 3S tournament I play in, I do well, despite never playing the game.

This is not because I am good at it: it's because at a very low level, Remy is an unstoppable zoning monster, and few people in Ireland know 3S.

As soon as the other player learns to parry, the game changes completely: Remy can't do anything to force the other player to move, or take damage, and he becomes one of the worst in the game.

This is a black and white binary example of the complex issue of advising noobs: and it works all the way up in skill levels. In SF4, a I pointed out above, the top tier demand a certain level of understanding and if someone cannot use them in that way, they're not top tier anymore, and in some cases should be avoided til that level of understanding (which, btw, I don't have, having played the game for 3 years)is grasped.

Advising someone new based on a (random) tier list is definitely not the way to go.

I would advise someone new to SF4 to start with Ryu. Solid character, 3 frame reversal, good combos to learn, and loads of capacity to experiment with safe jumps, cross ups and the like when you get there.

UberPrinny_Baal

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

You are mostly correct in your post (dat juicebox definition :pac:), but this bit is not always true, specifically about it being true down to low levels of play...

Hmm, yes Ok, i'd accept that. I don't know if you read my last post before you posted this, but i would agree that tier list accuracy is on a sliding scale, the lower the level of play. Still though, i think once you reach a certain mid-level level of proficiency where you have your character's full range of moves at your command and understand the matchups, and have reached a point where play is largely instinctive, i do think that the tier lists start to come into play and have an effect.

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

I'd question your Ryu VS Deejay thing in the following ways:
How do you define a massive improvement (or any at all)? What is your testing criteria for improvement? What's your sample size?

Ha, yeah. Granted, it was a completely subjective opinion, but how i was looking at it was in terms of the common issues that seem to come up a lot in this game like wakeup mixups, vortexes, zoning, rushdowns, focus shenanigans and cancels, charging versus input based moves and how they sit into the game's key mechanics at a mid to high level, and the range of moves and options generally available to me with each character, with and without varying levels of meter.

It's not at all an impartial scientific analysis, and i accept your point on that, but ryu feels like he has a better range of tools to deal with more of the common problems in the game than deejay does. That's not just specific to my playstyle, but in general, he feels like a much more solid, better rounded, character than deejay is, better equipped to deal with what this game is likely to throw at him. Tier lists in general would seem to support that point of view.

Danonino.

Scavenger XIII wrote: »

This is going to go south in a hurry. :pac:

:rolleyes:

Fergus_

I play Rose and Sakura here

Regarding the tier list, I don't think the level in Ireland is high enough to make tier lists really matter. Unless it's Sakura's matchups ofc. :pac:

YayForYuffie

Fergus_ wrote: »

I play Rose and Sakura here

Regarding the tier list, I don't think the level in Ireland is high enough to make tier lists really matter. Unless it's Sakura's matchups ofc. :pac:

She's top 15. You hush up.

AeoNGriM

>>Be Chun-Li
>>Be crossed up deep by Ryu
>>Hit EX SBK
>>Completely whiff
>>Ryu be all like 'Naw baby'
>>Cr.FpxxMp.DPxxFADCxxU1
>>FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-

Doctor DooM

Real men solar plexus strike before CR HP

recnib

Funny how a thread i made about who everyone uses resulted in an argument over tier lists. In regard to the topic I think wer should all refer to my previous post.

recnib wrote: »

Here's how I look at it lads. There are characters that will suit different people, for example, I couldn't imagine playing Dhalsim, but there are people who have no problem with him. For me personally, I like using Gen, i like the feel when i move and i like the moves, it fits me.

Tier lists mean nothing, they are different people's representations of which characters they think are the best and worst. In my personal opinion, every single character in every fighting game ever is godlike, people just need to know how to play them.

Orim

recnib wrote: »

Funny how a thread i made about who everyone uses resulted in an argument over tier lists.

Welcome to the fighting games forum, we don't deal with topics. :pac:

Scavenger XIII

TIRES DON EXITS! :pac:

Doctor DooM

recnib wrote: »

Funny how a thread i made about who everyone uses resulted in an argument over tier lists. In regard to the topic I think wer should all refer to my previous post.

For a lot of people, the character they use is very closely related to their position in tiers- so I couldn't see this ending any other way, tbh!

Ramza

S tier only

Unless I'm Urien