The All New Would-You-Sack-Kidney-Now Poll

Almaviva

The poll is open

Cpt_Blackbeard

Just proposing to sack Kidney is too simplistic, but yes he has to go. An complete overhaul is needed.

Rather than just repeating myself, I'll post what I said elsewhere:

We could easily hand Ruddock the reigns for the AIs while we search for a man with a vision to bring us forward. We don't need a great coach, we need a man who will oversee a plan/playing philosophy from grassroots up to the national team. We can then bring in top technical coaches to work under this man in a director's role similar to how Conor O'Shea operates at Quins.

mikedragon32

Poll reopened. Please refrain from criticism without supporting it, outright abuse or flamebait. Report trolls, don't respond.

vkid

Should go...but as I've said before that can only be part of the solution. The players including BOD as captain have to take responsibility also imo and I'd imagine some restructuring in the back room are also required.

Its time for a clear out and a lot of the older guys need to just go. If we lose games while this happens then so be it, but the older lads are not adding anything much to the mix right now imo.

If anything they are bringing the same ol same ol predicatble rubbish and not all of that lies with Kidney.

irishbucsfan

Well he said he won't resign this morning.

I doubt the IRFU will be pushing him hard. I don't think he'll go after November either because our games aren't realistically going to be tough enough to embarrass him any more into going.

So we'll be stuck with him through the next 6 Nations at least. I feel especially bad for the players because the Lions team will be picked partially on those performances.

GerM

I assume he'll see out his contract and that he'll "choose" to move on with a nice PR piece about how he has done so much and we're grateful and he feels the time is right to step aside after 5 years in the job.

The IRFU won't be making any pay outs to terminate a contract so, as much as people want him gone, he's here until the end of his contract. No way they'll terminate is 11 months from the end.

vkid

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I feel especially bad for the players because the Lions team will be picked partially on those performances.

I don't tbh. They have to bear some responsibility..quite a big chunk of it too, to be fair. They are the ones on the field at the end of the day,

Cork24

Its use that are fecking up the AIB League not turning out to our Local Club games A2,A3 games clubs are finding it hard to keep going in this day and age.

the likes of Garryowen, Young Munster, Cork Con etc the big boys taken all the good players and paying them giving other small teams not chance to hold onto them

People would not pay 10 euros for a A1 League Match but would pay over the top price to see Munster play in the HC

I now cant go to games anymore as the price of tickets are gone way to dear.

Sacking Kidney will not solve or do anything for Irish Rugby, We have 4 Top Clubs playing in Europe we cant Live without the support of the HC. We dont have top players coming up in the ranks to take over for the lads in the finally days at top level rugby

Tox56

vkid wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I feel especially bad for the players because the Lions team will be picked partially on those performances.

I don't tbh. They have to bear some responsibility..quite a big chunk of it too, to be fair. They are the ones on the field at the end of the day,

Theres a fine line, at this level you can't simply go Barbarians style and make it up as you go along. They should be held responsible for errors like dropped balls and things like that, but they can only do so much, they're not simply going to abandon the gameplan and tactics they've been preparing with.

If we get a decent coach I doubt anyone will be surprised if these players start playing close to their best.

liammur

Cork24 wrote: »

Its use that are fecking up the AIB League not turning out to our Local Club games A2,A3 games clubs are finding it hard to keep going in this day and age.

the likes of Garryowen, Young Munster, Cork Con etc the big boys taken all the good players and paying them giving other small teams not chance to hold onto them

People would not pay 10 euros for a A1 League Match but would pay over the top price to see Munster play in the HC

I now cant go to games anymore as the price of tickets are gone way to dear.

Sacking Kidney will not solve or do anything for Irish Rugby, We have 4 Top Clubs playing in Europe we cant Live without the support of the HC. We dont have top players coming up in the ranks to take over for the lads in the finally days at top level rugby

This is an excellant point. The club game now is at a crisis and some clubs must be on the verge of going bust very soon ala the league of ireland.

I would like to see kidney go, but the bad news for the H cup merchants, winning at H cup level and international level are 2 different things entirely. Big step up. We only need to ask 1 man: Declan Kidney.

stephen_n

Cork24 wrote: »

Its use that are fecking up the AIB League not turning out to our Local Club games A2,A3 games clubs are finding it hard to keep going in this day and age.

the likes of Garryowen, Young Munster, Cork Con etc the big boys taken all the good players and paying them giving other small teams not chance to hold onto them

People would not pay 10 euros for a A1 League Match but would pay over the top price to see Munster play in the HC

I now cant go to games anymore as the price of tickets are gone way to dear.

Sacking Kidney will not solve or do anything for Irish Rugby, We have 4 Top Clubs playing in Europe we cant Live without the support of the HC. We dont have top players coming up in the ranks to take over for the lads in the finally days at top level rugby

You think that the 100 odd professional players that perform at the top level in the rabo and Heineken cup can't provide us with a good enough squad but that the AIB league somehow could if it was better supported? Can I just check does 2+2 make 6 in your world?

liammur

vkid wrote: »

Should go...but as I've said before that can only be part of the solution. The players including BOD as captain have to take responsibility also imo and I'd imagine some restructuring in the back room are also required.

Its time for a clear out and a lot of the older guys need to just go. If we lose games while this happens then so be it, but the older lads are not adding anything much to the mix right now imo.

If anything they are bringing the same ol same ol predicatble rubbish and not all of that lies with Kidney.

Of course. Once the players cross the white line it's them, and only them on the field. So to blame management alone is too simplistic.
BOD just captained us to our worst ever performance. Time for them to moving on before the reputations are in tatters. But we shouldn't forget, that all involved provided us with a decade of success and I thank them for that.

Sean Bateman

Kidney should be sacked.

This season has been disastrous. We were beaten at home by Wales, humiliated by England (who are a poor side) and embarrassed by New Zealand. There's very little sign of progress...in fact we're regressing.

Kidney is way too cautious - I doubt that anyone would mind if he threw "one for the future" in at centre and we lost. But selecting Paddy Wallace? That was an unbelievable decision.

Conservatism does us no good - We need a progressive coach like Joe Schmidt or Jake White.

GerM

liammur wrote: »

I would like to see kidney go, but the bad news for the H cup merchants, winning at H cup level and international level are 2 different things entirely. Big step up. We only need to ask 1 man: Declan Kidney.

Whose response would be a combination of Chinese proverbs and a weather forecast before throwing a smoke bomb on the ground and legging it.

.ak

No way would they pay him out of his contract so close to the end of it. One more season lads, let's just baton down the hatches.

Cork24

stephen_n wrote: »

You think that the 100 odd professional players that perform at the top level in the rabo and Heineken cup can't provide us with a good enough squad but that the AIB league somehow could if it was better supported? Can I just check does 2+2 make 6 in your world?

Where do all the 100 odd professional players that perform at top level come from the Heavens does 2 + 2 make 6 in your world ?

Everything in Life must Start at the Bottom up,

liammur

GerM wrote: »

Whose response would be a combination of Chinese proverbs and a weather forecast before throwing a smoke bomb on the ground and legging it.

Spot on, but if he has only 11 months left of his contract, I'd agree with the poster who said it's just a waiting game.

Conor O Shea would look like the obvious candidate to replace him.

GerM

.ak wrote: »

No way would they pay him out of his contract so close to the end of it. One more season lads, let's just baton down the hatches.

Precisely. We may as just grin and bear it. Sound weak but there's absolutely nothing that will be done. I haven't bought a ticket to the autumn internationals but they'll be purchased regardless. We can all predict 12 (minimum) of the starting side for the SA match barring injury. Hopefully we'll get into a decent position through a death rattle of this side and someone else comes in.

The new coach (I'd like to think it's 80% certain there will be one barring a massive turnaround) has an easy introduction given we'll be touring USA/Canada next season which is a handy opportunity to throw in new players in a relatively comfortable environment.

GerM

Cork24 wrote: »

Where do all the 100 odd professional players that perform at top level come from the Heavens does 2 + 2 make 6 in your world ?

Everything in Life must Start at the Bottom up,

Absolutely and that's well below AIL level. The involvement of AIL has been reduced. They will play a bit certainly but the top talent goes from schools to representative rugby to the academy to the provincial A squad playing inter-pros and B&I Cup. They play far fewer AIL games and, if they're good enough, only do so for a year or two. The AIL's influence is diminished to an extent particularly with the new rules in place as we saw with the likes of Jack McGrath unable to play for St. Mary's this season in the latter stages.

JRant

Any of the unions above us in the rankings now would sack/ask for resignation from their coach after a hiding like the one witnessed yesterday.
Lancaster and Gatland have given youth a chance in these tours and have still not been humilated like we were in 2 of the 3 tests.
What we don't need any more spin and excuses. It's not working, simple as. All involved need to honestly review where we stand. The IRFU are doing alot of good work but whats the point in pumping money into youth development when it's nigh on impossible for good young players to get a game under the current management. I'm not suggesting they should be interfering with the selections but a change in ethos is needed.

stephen_n

Cork24 wrote: »

Where do all the 100 odd professional players that perform at top level come from the Heavens does 2 + 2 make 6 in your world ?

Everything in Life must Start at the Bottom up,

4 provincial squads with a maximum of 20 NIQ players between them where's your difficulty in understanding? If players aren't good enough to play at provincial level they are no where near good enough to play international level even the ones playing Rabo week in week out are not good enough to do that! There is absolutely no link between your argument for more support for local clubs and the strength or weakness of the Irish team it's a facile argument because your put out you can't afford to watch Munster!

rrpc

Until we change the coaching setup, we can't really make any definitive judgments on individual players. In any event picking out individual players in a team sport is pointless.

If we were to just look at our defensive patterns, they've been all over the place in the last few years. We've alternately been rushing, drifting, standing off, flat etc. apparently on a whim. Our attackinig play has been all over the place and we seem to be alternately relying on the boot or playing laterally with no real tactical awareness of who we're playing against. Wales in both the RWC and 6N springs to mind in this regard.

Then there's been the ROG at 10 and Sexton at 12 ploy which I still can't get my head around. Especially on this tour where we've had no viable backup 10 should the worst happen and both get injured. Were we going to fly out [insert name of preferred back up 10] on a moment's notice?

Speaking of flying players out, Gavin Duffy and Paddy Wallace both got very late call ups when it was obvious to everyone here that we were light in the backs. Poor Duffy never got a look in and Paddy went from the beach to the starting lineup in no time flat. Why Kidney couldn't just have slotted McFadden in at 12 and started Trimble or Zebo on the wing seeing as they were all there for the duration and were up to speed with whatever cliched and inscrutable game plan Kidney had prepared.

And before anyone says that Kidney doesn't trust McFadden at 12 and neither does Schmidt; well Schmidt trusts him to fill in for both D'Arcy and BOD, so in the same circumstances why doesn't Kidney?

Edited to add in relation to the poll that we just need to grit our teeth and let Kidney see out the rest of his contract. No point in wasting money paying him off and in fairness, he should be allowed the dignity of seeing out his contract without any of the fuss or brouhaha assoicated with a sacking or resignation. He's a limited coach, but he has overseen a grand slam and should be repected for that.

GerM

This season: 17 tests, 6 wins.

The wins: Australia, Italy x 2, Scotland, USA and Russia.

Now that's depressing.

Higher

Kidney is definitely worse than EOS. I am convinced. At least EOS actually played a decent brand of rugby. EOS downfall was his rigid selections. The downfall of Kidney is he just doesn't know the new game and when he does make changes they are inevitably the wrong ones!

Podge_irl

GerM wrote: »

The new coach (I'd like to think it's 80% certain there will be one barring a massive turnaround)

I'd like to think it's 100% certain regardless of a massive turnaround.

Neil3030

There's a specific opinion that seems to be doing the rounds that I'd like explained. Probably not worthy of its own thread, and I did look for a more suitable thread before posting here, to no avail.

I've read now in several places, both fora and mainstream media, that Joe Schmidt isn't the man to replace Kidney. I've never seen it elaborated upon, it seems to be usually made in passing, as in, "oh well the next man won't be Schmidt, so we should look to someone like O'Shea etc....." The closest I can recall to an explanation was someone making the point that the IRFU wouldn't fancy him.

Why on earth would it be the case that a man who has delivered all that he has delivered to Leinster wouldn't be considered for the Ireland job? Is it that he wouldn't be interested? That's fair enough. But if the IRFU "don't fancy him", that's an indication of a pretty sizeable problem in Lansdowne Road, imo.

Phonehead

Realistically I can't see it happen, I'm not sure it's a role that's all that attractive to outsiders. I think the Irish players have to shoulder considerable blame also, many managers may not be willing to place their reputation on the line when it appears something fundemtal is missing in the national psyche.

Podge_irl

Neil3030 wrote: »

There's a specific opinion that seems to be doing the rounds that I'd like explained. Probably not worthy of its own thread, and I did look for a more suitable thread before posting here, to no avail.

I've read now in several places, both fora and mainstream media, that Joe Schmidt isn't the man to replace Kidney. I've never seen it elaborated upon, it seems to be usually made in passing, as in, "oh well the next man won't be Schmidt, so we should look to someone like O'Shea etc....." The closest I can recall to an explanation was someone making the point that the IRFU wouldn't fancy him.

Why on earth would it be the case that a man who has delivered all that he has delivered to Leinster wouldn't be considered for the Ireland job? Is it that he wouldn't be interested? That's fair enough. But if the IRFU "don't fancy him", that's an indication of a pretty sizeable problem in Lansdowne Road, imo.

A lot of people want someone to come in from completely outside the Irish rugby system to give a completely fresh perspective on everything. But more relevantly, from Schimidt's comments, it would appear he plans on heading back to NZ once his time with Leinster is up. He could potentially be persuaded to take the Ireland job, but personally I think he is more interested in going home to coach S15 and then on to the NZ national team.

danthefan

GerM wrote: »

This season: 17 tests, 6 wins.

The wins: Australia, Italy x 2, Scotland, USA and Russia.

Now that's depressing.

Desperate. I'm going to steal this and post it elsewhere.

MBolgia

GerM wrote: »

This season: 17 tests, 6 wins.

The wins: Australia, Italy x 2, Scotland, USA and Russia.

Now that's depressing.

That is the the most shocking indictment of a coach I've ever seen. I was part of the "let him see out his contract" mindset until I read that. Now? It's time for him to go. And, though it kills me to say it, it's time for BOD to step to one side.

liammur

Neil3030 wrote: »

There's a specific opinion that seems to be doing the rounds that I'd like explained. Probably not worthy of its own thread, and I did look for a more suitable thread before posting here, to no avail.

I've read now in several places, both fora and mainstream media, that Joe Schmidt isn't the man to replace Kidney. I've never seen it elaborated upon, it seems to be usually made in passing, as in, "oh well the next man won't be Schmidt, so we should look to someone like O'Shea etc....." The closest I can recall to an explanation was someone making the point that the IRFU wouldn't fancy him.

Why on earth would it be the case that a man who has delivered all that he has delivered to Leinster wouldn't be considered for the Ireland job? Is it that he wouldn't be interested? That's fair enough. But if the IRFU "don't fancy him", that's an indication of a pretty sizeable problem in Lansdowne Road, imo.

First off, would schmidt actually want the job ? I doubt it.

Reminds me of the English football job, huge hype, huge expectations, and very little success. A poisoned chalice.

Tox56

liammur wrote: »

Neil3030 wrote: »

There's a specific opinion that seems to be doing the rounds that I'd like explained. Probably not worthy of its own thread, and I did look for a more suitable thread before posting here, to no avail.

I've read now in several places, both fora and mainstream media, that Joe Schmidt isn't the man to replace Kidney. I've never seen it elaborated upon, it seems to be usually made in passing, as in, "oh well the next man won't be Schmidt, so we should look to someone like O'Shea etc....." The closest I can recall to an explanation was someone making the point that the IRFU wouldn't fancy him.

Why on earth would it be the case that a man who has delivered all that he has delivered to Leinster wouldn't be considered for the Ireland job? Is it that he wouldn't be interested? That's fair enough. But if the IRFU "don't fancy him", that's an indication of a pretty sizeable problem in Lansdowne Road, imo.

First off, would schmidt actually want the job ? I doubt it.

Reminds me of the English football job, huge hype, huge expectations, and very little success. A poisoned chalice.

Well according to you most of the players are average and club standard only, so you probably wouldn't want it, but Schmidt knows these players so I doubt that would be the problem for him.

The fact he's planning to go back to NZ would be by far the biggest issue

rrpc

Phonehead wrote: »

Realistically I can't see it happen, I'm not sure it's a role that's all that attractive to outsiders. I think the Irish players have to shoulder considerable blame also, many managers may not be willing to place their reputation on the line when it appears something fundemtal is missing in the national psyche.

I have no idea where you're getting this from. Looking outside rugby, we've had plenty of international success in Golf, Boxing, Equine sports, Athletics etc. Inside rugby, have you noticed the domination of the Heineken Cup by Irish teams? Or the league?

Not exactly a losing mindset there, and considering the population, the miniscule investment in sport (€55 million from the ISC this year) then we are boxing waaay above our weight.

liammur

Tox56 wrote: »

Well according to you most of the players are average and club standard only, so you probably wouldn't want it, but Schmidt knows these players so I doubt that would be the problem for him.

According to me these players are average by AB standard. I think yesterday conclusively sealed the deal in my favour, but let's not go off on tangents.

Higher

Our boxing is no better or worse than most other nations, we're nothing special. Look at Cuba for something special. Theres only a small number of countries that actually play Golf to a large degree so having some players is nothing special. Athletics....are you serious?

liammur

Higher wrote: »

Our boxing is no better or worse than most other nations, we're nothing special. Look at Cuba for something special. Theres only a small number of countries that actually play Golf to a large degree so having some players is nothing special. Athletics....are you serious?

Boxing is probably the sport we have enjoyed most success in. I've no idea how many boxing clubs there are in the country, but not many I'd say.

Tox56

liammur wrote: »

Tox56 wrote: »

Well according to you most of the players are average and club standard only, so you probably wouldn't want it, but Schmidt knows these players so I doubt that would be the problem for him.

According to me these players are average by AB standard. I think yesterday conclusively sealed the deal in my favour, but let's not go off on tangents.

Right, and by 6N standard?

Higher

There are tons of boxing clubs. Absolutely tons.

rrpc

Higher wrote: »

Our boxing is no better or worse than most other nations, we're nothing special. Look at Cuba for something special. Theres only a small number of countries that actually play Golf to a large degree so having some players is nothing special. Athletics....are you serious?

Yes I am. Considering the infrastructure, the investment and the huge reliance on volunteerism, athletics does far better than the inputs would suggest.

Our boxing is considerably better than you give it credit for. Katie Taylor has just taken her fourth World Championship, we've five others qualified for the London Olympics of which we'll probably take three or four medals. Boxing is huge in Cuba, yet we consistently get a better return at Olympic level relative to our participation.

Golf is played in every European country and Irish golfers make up less than five percent of the European tour. Six major titles in six years is a great return on numbers.

The poster I quoted was saying we don't have a winning psyche, Considering the investment in sport here, we do far better and win more per euro invested than any other country.

liammur

Tox56 wrote: »

Right, and by 6N standard?

Right now we're right up there with Wales and England, maybe a bit behind France because they have more strength in depth.

liammur

rrpc wrote: »

Yes I am. Considering the infrastructure, the investment and the huge reliance on volunteerism, athletics does far better than the inputs would suggest.

Our boxing is considerably better than you give it credit for. Katie Taylor has just taken her fourth World Championship, we've five others qualified for the London Olympics of which we'll probably take three or four medals. Boxing is huge in Cuba, yet we consistently get a better return at Olympic level relative to our participation.

Golf is played in every European country and Irish golfers make up less than five percent of the European tour. Six major titles in six years is a great return on numbers.

How many olympic medals have we won in boxing? We did very well in the last european championships in boxing. B Dunne/B McGuigan etc, not a bad record at all imo.

totallegend

GerM wrote: »

This season: 17 tests, 6 wins.

The wins: Australia, Italy x 2, Scotland, USA and Russia.

Now that's depressing.

There are lies, damn lies and statistics.

Then there are statistics which tell the truth better than any ten-page rant could. See above for an example.

rrpc

liammur wrote: »

How many olympic medals have we won in boxing? We did very well in the last european championships in boxing. B Dunne/B McGuigan etc, not a bad record at all imo.

We took three medals home from Beijing; Darren Sutherland and Paddy Barnes with Bronze and Kenny Egan with silver.

We are definitely in with a shout for three more at London. Katie Taylor is almost a shoe-in for one of them.

liammur

rrpc wrote: »

We took three medals home from Beijing; Darren Sutherland and Paddy Barnes with Bronze and Kenny Egan with silver.

We are definitely in with a shout for three more at London. Katie Taylor is almost a shoe-in for one of them.

She def has a gold, who else do you think will win 1 ?

molloyjh

liammur wrote: »

Tox56 wrote: »

Right, and by 6N standard?

Right now we're right up there with Wales and England, maybe a bit behind France because they have more strength in depth.

So does that mean you'd agree we have a huge issue at coaching level if you think we're up there with England and Wales yet we've lost our last 2 games in a row and 3 games in a row against both of those sides respectively!?

Sean Bateman

liammur wrote: »

rrpc wrote: »

We took three medals home from Beijing; Darren Sutherland and Paddy Barnes with Bronze and Kenny Egan with silver.

We are definitely in with a shout for three more at London. Katie Taylor is almost a shoe-in for one of them.

She def has a gold, who else do you think will win 1 ?

Katie Taylor's not relevant...fair play to her but let's put her achievements into perspective. She's competing in a mickey mouse event. It's like getting excited about a male netball player...she's top of the heap in a "minority minority sport".

New thinking is required for the Irish rugby team - Let's not have a wasted season this Autumn / Spring. Sack Kidney now and throw money at Schmidt or Jake White.

rrpc

liammur wrote: »

She def has a gold, who else do you think will win 1 ?

Paddy Barnes and possibly Adam Nolan, but it really depends on the draw.

liammur

molloyjh wrote: »

So does that mean you'd agree we have a huge issue at coaching level if you think we're up there with England and Wales yet we've lost our last 2 games in a row and 3 games in a row against both of those sides respectively!?

I've wanted Kidney gone for at least 2 years. I've said that numerous times. I don't want to blame the man 100% for our failures, but he certainly is way out of his depth and has been for some time.

liammur

rrpc wrote: »

Paddy Barnes and possibly Adam Nolan, but it really depends on the draw.

Interesting - thanks.

rrpc

Sean Bateman wrote: »

Katie Taylor's not relevant...fair play to her but let's put her achievements into perspective. She's competing in a mickey mouse event. It's like getting excited about a male netball player...she's top of the heap in a "minority minority sport".

That's incredibly disrespectful of both her and her sport. It might be a minority minority sport here, but not in the rest of Europe or the world.

The Russian boxer she faced in the WCH final was an excellent boxer and it was a difficult and very technical fight. The sport has been overlooked by most people because it didn't have Olympic status until this Olympiad, but there's always been a vibrant and strongly contested ECH and WCH program.

OldRio

Sean Bateman wrote: »

Katie Taylor's not relevant...fair play to her but let's put her achievements into perspective. She's competing in a mickey mouse event. It's like getting excited about a male netball player...she's top of the heap in a "minority minority sport".

Deary deary me.