A black day

Fishooks12

In just a two short months we have seen the massive contrast between Ireland's finest domestic day and our worst national showing

Even considering the arguments for test rugby being a step above HC. The sheer weight of the contrast is such that it leaves is no choice but to put a huge portion of the blame on our listless management

The IRFU need to take action sooner rather than later, for the sake of the development of Irish rugby Declan Kidney needs to leave his post. We have too many bright young players coming through that don't deserved the same treatment as their predecessors

matthew8

The whole IRFU needs the sack.

twinytwo

Fishooks12 wrote: »

In just a two short months we have seen the massive contrast between Ireland's finest domestic day and our worst national showing

Even considering the arguments for test rugby being a step above HC. The sheer weight of the contrast is such that it leaves is no choice but to put a huge portion of the blame on our listless management

The IRFU need to take action sooner rather than later, for the sake of the development of Irish rugby Declan Kidney needs to leave his post. We have too many bright young players coming through that don't deserved the same treatment as their predecessors

unless people stop buying tickets nothing will change, typical in this country

danthefan

matthew8 wrote: »

The whole IRFU needs the sack.

Wouldn't agree, they seem to manage the finances of rugby in the country very well.

clsmooth

Kidney has to go. The team is going nowhere but downhill. The IRFU need to act urgently.

Clegg

danthefan wrote: »

Wouldn't agree, they seem to manage the finances of rugby in the country very well.

By penny pinching.

Our national side hasn't had a backs coach for over a year.

Its farcical.

danthefan

Clegg wrote: »

By penny pinching.

Our national side hasn't had a backs coach for over a year.

Its farcical.

I doubt that's anything to do with funding, that's to do with our fearless leader reckoning we don't need one. The national team in Ireland are extremely well looked after, I doubt they want for anything.

Fishooks12

Kidney uses developing players as an excuse, and to be fair we all look to him to develop players.

But exposing the likes of Madigan, Zebo, and Gilroy to that kind of farcical game plan would be counter productive and could have a knock on effect with their confidence in at test level

garbanzo

Possibly the most embarrassing result ever.....but, no-one died folks.

Clegg

danthefan wrote: »

I doubt that's anything to do with funding, that's to do with our fearless leader reckoning we don't need one. The national team in Ireland are extremely well looked after, I doubt they want for anything.

I'm still holding out hope that our national coach isn't completely incompetent. Surely he must have seen that one outs from slow ball just don't work in international rugby?

Fishooks12

garbanzo wrote: »

Possibly the most embarrassing result ever.....but, no-one died folks.

I'll be close to killing someone if see that kind of a performance in the 2 games I've forked out 200e for in November !

19543261

It fully exposed our situation in all its greatness. I'm not upset.

danthefan

19543261 wrote: »

It fully exposed our situation in all its greatness. I'm not upset.

Do you have any faith anything will actually be done about it though?

athtrasna

In 2003 and 2006 we were ranked 3rd in the world. This year we are fighting to hold on to 8th in advance of the WC draw on December 3rd. It's time for change. Southern Hemisphere coaches are key to the provinces, we need to move forward. I hope I never see a result as depressing as this again in my lifetime, Deccie has to go.

Kayless

matthew8 wrote: »

The whole IRFU needs the sack.

and that silly anthem needs changed and I'm pretty sure that's not irelands national flag :rolleyes:

Cpt_Blackbeard

danthefan wrote: »

Do you have any faith anything will actually be done about it though?

Someone will have to realise that the rot has set in. There can only be so many false-dawns and repeated failures before someone realizes a clearout is needed.

Submara

Firstly, the Heineken Cup is over hyped and lacks real quality just like the English Premiership in soccer. In reality, it will never get indigenous Irish players up to the skill level and pace that most NZ players have even uncapped Kiwis. It has just lulled us in to a false sense of security.

I agree entirely about the management of the Irish Team who have become very stubborn and conservative. It is well known from sources close to the Irish squad that the players cannot stand D. Kidney and that BOD has been running the team for the last few years. When you have a situation like this, it doesn't lead to harmony on the pitch.

Today's result taking in to context is an absolute disgrace particularly with the advent of professionalism, physical conditioning, skills coaching, video analysis etc. Even in the darkest days of the amateur game when Ireland toured NZ we still scored some points against NZ with very inferior players. I am particularly referring to the 1991 tour where we should have beaten NZ in Carrisbrook, Dunedin with a second string XV for the first test. From my memory, the second test was real car crash tv like this morning but I think we managed to put some points on the board.

When it is all said and done we will always find it hard to compete against NZ in rugby as our adult playing population is so small and most of our best athletes don't play rugby. Remember that more people play basketball in Ireland than rugby.

thomond2006

Basically it's all gone downhill since John Hayes retired.

19543261

But what can be ''done''?

shuffol

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Someone will have to realise that the rot has set in. There can only be so many false-dawns and repeated failures before someone realizes a clearout is needed.

We could have a situation akin to what Munster had to face this season, and in fairness Kidneys fingerprints are all over that too.

Fishooks12

19543261 wrote: »

But what can be ''done''?

1) a backs coach

2) a head coach who isn't Kidney

3) a defensive system that doesn't dramatically change week to week

Fishooks12

ha, I think I got #kidneyout trending on twitter! Keep it up!

Hagz

That performance has more to do with just the management. Some of the mistakes from Ireland were embarrassing. There seems to be this persistent inconsistency to maintain a high level of intensity. We saw against England in 10, Australia in the WC and against NZ last week, that when these boys play aggressively and intensely, they deliver on their potential, yet they can't do it two weeks in a row.

Kiss being defensive and attack coach is just inefficient, Kidney refuses to build a squad, and our players make stupid silly errors. There's two things I'd like to see happen now.
1. I'd like the media to reign down hell on the management and players. None of this 'they were tired' or 'jeez, NZ are great'. That performance was tripe and should be classified as such.
2. I'm looking forward to these NIQ rules. I'd gladly see us miss out on Heineken Cups if the provinces were self-sufficient for it.

Fishooks12

http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/rugby/2012/0623/1224318523862.html

Kidney not mentioned once in Thornley's match report. I'll hold off for his opinion piece tomorrow though

clsmooth

Clegg wrote: »

I'm still holding out hope that our national coach isn't completely incompetent. Surely he must have seen that one outs from slow ball just don't work in international rugby?

He hasnt worked this out in the last 2 1/2 years.. This team will never turn the corner with him at the helm. We might get an odd performance here and there but the sad fact is that for every decent performance there tends to be about 3/4 poor ones. A total clear out is needed of the coaching and management team. New ideas are needed. Unfortunately Thornley and Farrelly won't write about this and there will be no pressure of Kidney to step down which is what he should do. He knows if he does, he'll struggle to get a decent job so he's here to stay until the IRFU grow a set of balls or his contract expires.

Fishooks12

Submara wrote: »

Firstly, the Heineken Cup is over hyped and lacks real quality just like the English Premiership in soccer. In reality, it will never get indigenous Irish players up to the skill level and pace that most NZ players have even uncapped Kiwis. It has just lulled us in to a false sense of security.

I agree entirely about the management of the Irish Team who have become very stubborn and conservative. It is well known from sources close to the Irish squad that the players cannot stand D. Kidney and that BOD has been running the team for the last few years. When you have a situation like this, it doesn't lead to harmony on the pitch.

Today's result taking in to context is an absolute disgrace particularly with the advent of professionalism, physical conditioning, skills coaching, video analysis etc. Even in the darkest days of the amateur game when Ireland toured NZ we still scored some points against NZ with very inferior players. I am particularly referring to the 1991 tour where we should have beaten NZ in Carrisbrook, Dunedin with a second string XV for the first test. From my memory, the second test was real car crash tv like this morning but I think we managed to put some points on the board.

When it is all said and done we will always find it hard to compete against NZ in rugby as our adult playing population is so small and most of our best athletes don't play rugby. Remember that more people play basketball in Ireland than rugby.

It's funny that none of these "sources" are ever revealed

19543261

Fishooks12 wrote: »

1) a backs coach

2) a head coach who isn't Kidney

3) a defensive system that doesn't dramatically change week to week

Oh. Do you see any of that changing before kidney's contract is out?

Fishooks12

19543261 wrote: »

Oh. Do you see any of that changing before kidney's contract is out?

Nope, hence me wanting him out!

superblu

Guys we need to get a grip. If ever the expression 1 foot on the plane applied it was to the Ireland players during this game. I agree kidney needs to go but this game is completely irrelevant in that context. whoever said that h cup rugby doesn't prepare players for playing test rugby is talking through their holes. Only for absolutely scandalous refereeing decisions new Zealand would have lost last week and the world cup final to players who all ply their trade in the h cup.

Almaviva

A(ll) black day.

Fishooks12

superblu wrote: »

Guys we need to get a grip. If ever the expression 1 foot on the plane applied it was to the Ireland players during this game. I agree kidney needs to go but this game is completely irrelevant in that context. whoever said that h cup rugby doesn't prepare players for playing test rugby is talking through their holes. Only for absolutely scandalous refereeing decisions new Zealand would have lost last week and the world cup final to players who all ply their trade in the h cup.

It's completely relevant. It's a summation of just how low our national team has sunk under Kidney

MBolgia

Fishooks12 wrote: »

It's funny that none of these "sources" are ever revealed

I coach with the brother of one of the players. I can't reveal his name, the club or anything that could get him in trouble with his employers. That would be stupid and irresponsible on my part. Through him I have heard these sentiments being echoed. Kidney has lost the dressing room and had done so long before the World Cup.

niallon

Every news site has a pairing along these lines, keeps making me think that was all just a horrible nightmare I saw this morning:

Cpt_Blackbeard

MBolgia wrote: »

I coach with the brother of one of the players. I can't reveal his name, the club or anything that could get him in trouble with his employers. That would be stupid and irresponsible on my part. Through him I have heard these sentiments being echoed. Kidney has lost the dressing room and had done so long before the World Cup.

Jesůs, I'd be worried if that is true. Not only has BOD been a poor player and leader/captain this tour, but he can't even coach a side. Awful state of affairs. :rolleyes:

LuckyLloyd

Today's result wasn't a coaching issue.

profitius

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Today's result wasn't a coaching issue.

Are you saying Kidney is not fit to be called a coach??

clsmooth

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Today's result wasn't a coaching issue.

How about the last 2 1/2 years?

sixy

Bring in a southern hemisphere coach and let him bring in his own coaching ticket. All the northern hemisphere teams have performed poorly on these tours and that today was an embarrassment

Fishooks12

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Today's result wasn't a coaching issue.

Yes because playing with a defensive system that stood off NZ certainly didn't have an effect on the game

Or using the one tired backline move for the entire game

Or constantly kicking to the most dangerous backline in world rugby

Snickers Man

1) Kidney has to go. Now. Thanks for the Slam and all that but you're out of here. This is the time to do it. Natural winding down of careers for some venerable old faces (O'Driscoll, O'Gara, D'Arcy, O'Callaghan) and need to bring in a whole raft of new players.

2) We need to think about the captaincy as a functional role, not an honour awarded to our best player. O'Driscoll has never been a great captain. Neither has O'Connell.

Our game plan today was farcical. Last week we achieved parity up front and put their back three under pressure with an astute kicking game. We got the All Blacks to change both their wingers for today's match. So that gives us the right to play today like a French exhibition team??? I don't think Sexton kicked the ball once.

So many dropped passes, so many offloads that didn't stick, so many gifted turnovers to the All Blacks who punished the hell out of us by doing simple things well.

Stupid. Out you go Kidney.

Captaincy is, or should be, about adapting tactics to the situation as it evolves. It's about making the correct decisions. Today, O'Driscoll hadn't a clue what to do to adapt. Granted, with the All Blacks in the mood they were in and given the start we gifted them it may not have made much of a difference.

Last week, though, was criminal. Wrong decisions at the wrong time when we had the Blacks on the ropes. Being the captain that lost a match against 14 men from being on level terms with eight minutes to go and a penalty on half way will haunt O'Driscoll to his grave. As it should. All the dumb home-town decisions from Nigel Owens can't change that.

I'm sick. Pissed off and in no mood to sing anything. Roy Keane would be proud of me.

Submara

Dear Twinytwo,

Obviously with you being from Cork, you see the world through red tinted glassess and I suppose any justified criticism of Declan Kidney is out of the question.

In relation to the Heinken Cup, that particular tournament is over hyped. It has done nothing for Ireland to enable us to close the gap with the Tri-Nations and to do well at Rugby World Cups. Look at Wales, whose club/regional sides have never looked like winning a H Cup but who are far superior at test level compared to Ireland. The only thing the Heineken Cup has done for Ireland is to massage the egos of Munster and Leinster supporters.

liammur

And there was not shying away from the issue by O'Driscoll.
"That scoreline is a bit embarrassing," he told Sky Sports.


Am, sorry O'Driscoll, that scoreline is hugely embarrassing. Let's call it as we see it.

LuckyLloyd

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Yes because playing with a defensive system that stood off NZ certainly didn't have an effect on the game

Or using the one tired backline move for the entire game

Or constantly kicking to the most dangerous backline in world rugby

Keep believing that, in the specific context of this game, the result was a product of coaching strategies and that, as an example, the Leinster coach would have elicited a different outcome.

You'll be wrong, but I don't think you'll terribly mind.

mikedragon32

MBolgia wrote: »

I coach with the brother of one of the players. I can't reveal his name, the club or anything that could get him in trouble with his employers. That would be stupid and irresponsible on my part. Through him I have heard these sentiments being echoed. Kidney has lost the dressing room and had done so long before the World Cup.

You can't/won't reveal sources for your sh1t-stirring drivel?

Fine. Don't post here again.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Yes because playing with a defensive system that stood off NZ certainly didn't have an effect on the game

Or using the one tired backline move for the entire game

Or constantly kicking to the most dangerous backline in world rugby

It wasn't just a coaching issue though. Kidney needs to go, but the players can't be absolved of blame. They are the ones that missed the tackles and turnover the balls.

Fishooks12

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Keep believing that, in the specific context of this game, the result was a product of coaching strategies and that, as an example, the Leinster coach would have elicited a different outcome.

You'll be wrong, but I don't think you'll terribly mind.

Pretty condescending arrogant post, which is all the more hilarious considering how little you must know of the game if you think coaching had nothing to do with that humiliation

Fishooks12

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

It wasn't just a coaching issue though. Kidney needs to go, but the players can't be absolved of blame. They are the ones that missed the tackles and turnover the balls.

I agree. But we can all agree the game plan played a huge part in it too

irishbucsfan

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

It wasn't just a coaching issue though. Kidney needs to go, but the players can't be absolved of blame. They are the ones that missed the tackles and turnover the balls.

And who is responsible for the players level of motivation?


If it was one or two players then that's fair enough. It was the entire team though. And that screams of poor leadership.

liammur

Fishooks12 wrote: »

It's completely relevant. It's a summation of just how low our national team has sunk under Kidney

1 grand slam in 50 odd years of average european rugby? Our national team has always been weak.

LuckyLloyd

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Pretty condescending arrogant post, which is all the more hilarious considering how little you must know of the game if you think coaching had nothing to do with that humiliation

I know enough about the game to know that a 60 point deficit is nothing to do with what the coach is saying or not saying in the dressing room or on the practice field.

Fishooks12

irishbucsfan wrote: »

And who is responsible for the players level of motivation?


If it was one or two players then that's fair enough. It was the entire team though. And that screams of poor leadership.

This