BBC - Just Eff Off Already

gscully

Day two of Royal Ascot and all I'm hearing is Frankel, Frankel and Frankel. Enough already. There's so many great races, horses, trainers and jockeys. Focus on them.

Clare Balding "Yesterday was a great day for Henry Cecil. He only had one runner. You only need one runner when you have Frankel". Erm Bullet Train?

I'm usually against channels monopolising a sport, but having it all on C4 is a blessing if this is the best the BBC can offer.

ft9

I think Frankel should be applauded as much as possible. He is amazing, the best we ever have/will see. He does so much for the sport.

Appreciate the super star he is.

tryfix

Wait and see what they'll be talking about if Carlton House wins. Dreadful presenters, particularly Mick Fitz, but it's great racing all the same.

TheMilkyPirate

I hate racing on BBC, Thoughts of listening to them if Carlton house wins...

I've said it many times on here before but it can't be said enough, Willie carson is an idiot and should not be let anywhere near a television camera. Man makes my blood boil.

meriwether

ft9 wrote: »

I think Frankel should be applauded as much as possible. He is amazing, the best we ever have/will see. He does so much for the sport.

Appreciate the super star he is.

Ah now, seriously.

ft9

Whos better that you have seen?

MoscowFlyer

I wish the would put Willie into his box. So hard to listen too.

meriwether

ft9 wrote: »

Whos better that you have seen?

Well, I can tell you who has achieved more.

Guineas at 1m, Eclipse at 1m2, Derby at 1m4, and Arc at 1m4,(and others) over three distances and all ages.

That is Sea the Stars.

To date, Frankel has beaten the same horses repeatedly over the same distance (Sussex excluded, which was impressive).

He has it to prove over other distances.

He could be the GOAT yet, but its too early to say.

He is a stunning miler, but lets see him do it over 1m2 and 1m4 at against all ages.

Morgans

Frankel has something to prove?

Sea The Stars did beat barely average gp 1 animals in MasterCraftsman, Rip Van Winkle Fame and Glory and Delegator. Not forgetting Youmzain. He did it well and its a shame that we didnt see him at 4. A super horse.

But crabbing Frankel because of the performances that he has put up are over a mile is just nonsense. He is the greatest horse of my lifetime - god only knows how much weight he would have to carry to allow Sea the Stars get close over a mile. If he never ran again, it is only the ill-educated and churlish who would point to his repeated demolitions (is it 7 consecutive performance in the 140s) as being somehow lacking. You might as well criticise him for not winning the champion hurdle as not going for the Arc.

BBC coverage is dire. Only way to enjoy it is to mute it.

aidan24326

tryfix wrote: »

Wait and see what they'll be talking about if Carlton House wins. Dreadful presenters, particularly Mick Fitz, but it's great racing all the same.

Bit harsh on Mick Fitz? I don't mind Willie Carson too much either, he can be a bit annoying but best not to take him too seriously.

The really annoying one is Clare Balding. Thank god Carlton House didn't win or I swear she'd have had an orgasm live on air (not something any of us want to see). Her constant fawning over the queen and the royal family is cringeworthy.

UrbanSea

I can still remember the BBC's coverage of last year's Derby. You genuinely wouldn't know there were other runners than Carlton House. I'd backed Treasure Beach at 33/1 and was laughing as they kept dismissing him as a pace maker when they went through the runners.


That laughter soon turned to near tears as Pour Moi got up on the line

UrbanSea

Morgans wrote: »

Frankel has something to prove?

Sea The Stars did beat barely average gp 1 animals in MasterCraftsman, Rip Van Winkle Fame and Glory and Delegator. Not forgetting Youmzain. He did it well and its a shame that we didnt see him at 4. A super horse.

But crabbing Frankel because of the performances that he has put up are over a mile is just nonsense. He is the greatest horse of my lifetime - god only knows how much weight he would have to carry to allow Sea the Stars get close over a mile. If he never ran again, it is only the ill-educated and churlish who would point to his repeated demolitions (is it 7 consecutive performance in the 140s) as being somehow lacking. You might as well criticise him for not winning the champion hurdle as not going for the Arc.

BBC coverage is dire. Only way to enjoy it is to mute it.

Morgans I think you're being a bit harsh on Sea the Stars. The Arc he won was an incredibly strong one I think. Fame and Glory is hardly an above average gr.1 horse I think, he would have been a dual derby winner had it not been for STS though that's beside the point, the arc field he beat included some really nice older horses like Conduit and Dar Re Mi ( who both had improved massively as 4 year olds), F&G as abovemenioned, while Stacelita had been talked up as being the new Zarkava before she was beaten by Dar Re Mi in the Vermeille, she is still a muliple gr.1 winner,while Youmzain as usual ran a stormer at Lonchamp


I forgot about Vision D'Etat and the mighty Set Sail too

mr.jingle

UrbanSea wrote: »

Morgans I think you're being a bit harsh on Sea the Stars. The Arc he won was an incredibly strong one I think. Fame and Glory is hardly an above average gr.1 horse I think, he would have been a dual derby winner had it not been for STS though that's beside the point, the arc field he beat included some really nice older horses like Conduit and Dar Re Mi ( who both had improved massively as 4 year olds), F&G as abovemenioned, while Stacelita had been talked up as being the new Zarkava before she was beaten by Dar Re Mi in the Vermeille, she is still a muliple gr.1 winner,while Youmzain as usual ran a stormer at Lonchamp


I forgot about Vision D'Etat and the mighty Set Sail too

I agree with you Urban and also he raced over various distances. Frankel is an amazing racehorse but i feel personally only when he steps up to 1m2f will I really get to appreciate him that little bit more. I think every era has there horses that dominate but the past few years have thrown up some of the best animals we have probably ever seen(STS,Frankel,Black Caviar,Zenyatta,Kauto Star,Denman,Big Bucks etc) and possibly likely to see it really is a fantastic time to be a racing fan.

As for the BBC i was going to back Bonfire in the Derby this year but they threw me off him just for the blabbering on and on just like Carlton House last year. Channel 4 hopefully just continue what there doing and don't change too much as they are 10 times better than the BBC's coverage

Morgans

Id fancy Frankel to give Sea The Stars 10lbs and a beating at a mile. And god knows how much more over 6f. But no one crabs Sea the Stars for not winning a July Cup. I think Frankel could win any Group 1 on any course in any ground from 5f to 10f at a minimum.

That Cecil has campaigned the horse less agressively last year has meant that he is still around this year to do that in the Queen Anne. If he was going to be roughed off to stud last year, you might have seen a different campaign. Believing that there is something to prove until he does is ridiculous and missing the point.

Urban Sea, my sarcasm detector is on the blink but the horses that you named beaten by Sea the Stars only reads as very average for me. Conduit? Dar Re Mi? Stacelita? In all Arcs you are going to get a collection of gp1 winners, but there are good years and there are average years. Youmzain holds down the form of every arc he was second in. Sea the Stars was clearly the best of his year, however, he was beating decent but not great by a length or two. Winning over different distance is superb and it was agreat achievement from a great horse, but Camelot winning the St. Leger would not confirm that he a better horse than Sea The Stars.

Its the level of performance that Ive been waiting for all these years. To see horses do what Sea Bird or Arkle did. Frankel is destroying group 1 horses and putting back to back to back astonishing performances. If you cant appreciate what he is doing, and refuse to accept what he is doing until he does it at 12f, you are in the wrong sport. Why is there a rush up in distance? What would he do the July Cup field?

RichieLawlor

He will murder Camelot in the Juddmonte if they both turn up aswell

seoirsem

The beeb coverage is fairly rubbish alright. I'm surprised that ehm ........ ehm on settling down ehm..... ehm ....... no one has mentioned how bad ehm ...... further back in the field ehm ...... John em Jim ehm Jim McGrath's commentary is. I'd swear he'd get flustered doing a 4 mile handicap hurdle with 3 runners!!!! Definitely struggles with the big field sprints!!

meriwether

Morgans wrote: »

Frankel has something to prove?

Sea The Stars did beat barely average gp 1 animals in MasterCraftsman, Rip Van Winkle Fame and Glory and Delegator. Not forgetting Youmzain. He did it well and its a shame that we didnt see him at 4. A super horse.

But crabbing Frankel because of the performances that he has put up are over a mile is just nonsense. He is the greatest horse of my lifetime - god only knows how much weight he would have to carry to allow Sea the Stars get close over a mile. If he never ran again, it is only the ill-educated and churlish who would point to his repeated demolitions (is it 7 consecutive performance in the 140s) as being somehow lacking. You might as well criticise him for not winning the champion hurdle as not going for the Arc.

BBC coverage is dire. Only way to enjoy it is to mute it.

I'll ignore the ill-educated/churlish remark in the interests of civil debate.

I am crabbing Frankel, and will conrinue to crab Frankel, if the theory posited is that he is the greatest horse ever seen and will ever see (the direct quote I was replying to).

Frankel may well be the best miler we will ever see (and his performances are astonishing) but, canford Cliffs apart, he beats the same horses over the same distace under the same conditions. Tuesday told us nothing. It told us he is miles better than his peers, his peers he bet last year, and continues to beat this year (Sussex apart).

I have no doubt that Frankel, off level weights would beat STS in a mile or under, but am pretty confident that over 1m2 and 1m4, STS would have a rising chance of winning.

What STS did was unprecedented, and you must have sheer class to be the best miler, and middle distances horse in the one season, taking on all comers and all ages. I'm not sure if any other horse has gone the modern day triple crown.

I value that versatility as a mark of the sheer class he had, similar to the sheer class Kauto had to win at 2m and win at 3m2f.

I don't necesarily think Frankel has to go up to 1m4, as he's not that type of horse, but I really don't think a trip at 1m2, or a drop down to 6f should be out of the question, and I think his connections should do it in the interests of the sport, and also to cement his reputation.

meriwether

Morgans wrote: »

Id fancy Frankel to give Sea The Stars 10lbs and a beating at a mile. And god knows how much more over 6f. But no one crabs Sea the Stars for not winning a July Cup. I think Frankel could win any Group 1 on any course in any ground from 5f to 10f at a minimum.

That Cecil has campaigned the horse less agressively last year has meant that he is still around this year to do that in the Queen Anne. If he was going to be roughed off to stud last year, you might have seen a different campaign. Believing that there is something to prove until he does is ridiculous and missing the point.

Urban Sea, my sarcasm detector is on the blink but the horses that you named beaten by Sea the Stars only reads as very average for me. Conduit? Dar Re Mi? Stacelita? In all Arcs you are going to get a collection of gp1 winners, but there are good years and there are average years. Youmzain holds down the form of every arc he was second in. Sea the Stars was clearly the best of his year, however, he was beating decent but not great by a length or two. Winning over different distance is superb and it was agreat achievement from a great horse, but Camelot winning the St. Leger would not confirm that he a better horse than Sea The Stars.

Its the level of performance that Ive been waiting for all these years. To see horses do what Sea Bird or Arkle did. Frankel is destroying group 1 horses and putting back to back to back astonishing performances. If you cant appreciate what he is doing, and refuse to accept what he is doing until he does it at 12f, you are in the wrong sport. Why is there a rush up in distance? What would he do the July Cup field?

The manner of his Arc win was not 'by a length or two', it was a well within himself length or two, having had bad traffic problems all through. It was an awesome performance, and summarising it on the bare result does it no justice whatsoever.

aidan24326

Jim McGrath is poor enough alright, not a commentator I'd have much time for.

Simon Holt on C4 is the best racing commentator by a mile.

Nulty

Anyone who bangs on about Kauto Star always refers to the fact that he won G1 over 2m up to 3m2f.

Youmzain was a different horse at Longchamp. Zarkava's form is equally held back by the proximity of Youmzain. Sea The Stars was obviously better than he showed. Even Tom Quelly admits that Frankel just runs for fun, other horse will wander or try to pull themselves up a la Sea The Stars.

I'm not for one or the other, I would like to appreciate both equally for their achievements. Horses like Sea The Stars make the horses they beat look average. They are not all average but you can't think any other way because they are consistently beaten.

meriwether

aidan24326 wrote: »

Jim McGrath is poor enough alright, not a commentator I'd have much time for.

Simon Holt on C4 is the best racing commentator by a mile.

He often has a nice catchphrase at the end that can reallly sum it up - remember 'Moscow Flyer is MAGNIFICENT' after his second CC, the remark about gorgeous George after George Washington won the Guineas, and 'Kauto Star steals the show' after one of his GC wins (the first, I think).

The Moscow moment is still the best though!

klairondavis

Sea The Stars was a horse who kept plenty for himself and no other horse that ran against him ever got to the bottom of him. It's very hard to rate those sort of horses accurately because it is nigh on impossible to quantify what they have left in the tank.

It was a similar story when Moscow Flyer ran over jumps. He'd beat the likes of Rathgar Beau and Steel Band by a few lengths ridden out and he'd then beat far superior animals like Well Chief and Azertyioup by a similar margin. Frankel would be more similar to Master Minded in that he is far more precocious and he does not idle once he hits the front.

There is always a propensity to overrate horses like Frankel because they will run to the limit of their ability and batter horses by 10 lengths plus. Sea The Stars could beat the same horses as easily but may only beat them by a quarter of the distance. Remember the lofty rating that Hawk Wing received for his Lockinge romp? Horses who do it in that sort of style will always be a handicapper's dream and will probably be slightly overrated compared to a horse who runs within itself.

Morgans

meriwether wrote: »

I'll ignore the ill-educated/churlish remark in the interests of civil debate.

I am crabbing Frankel, and will conrinue to crab Frankel, if the theory posited is that he is the greatest horse ever seen and will ever see (the direct quote I was replying to).

Frankel may well be the best miler we will ever see (and his performances are astonishing) but, canford Cliffs apart, he beats the same horses over the same distace under the same conditions. Tuesday told us nothing. It told us he is miles better than his peers, his peers he bet last year, and continues to beat this year (Sussex apart).

I have no doubt that Frankel, off level weights would beat STS in a mile or under, but am pretty confident that over 1m2 and 1m4, STS would have a rising chance of winning.

What STS did was unprecedented, and you must have sheer class to be the best miler, and middle distances horse in the one season, taking on all comers and all ages. I'm not sure if any other horse has gone the modern day triple crown.

I value that versatility as a mark of the sheer class he had, similar to the sheer class Kauto had to win at 2m and win at 3m2f.

I don't necesarily think Frankel has to go up to 1m4, as he's not that type of horse, but I really don't think a trip at 1m2, or a drop down to 6f should be out of the question, and I think his connections should do it in the interests of the sport, and also to cement his reputation.

Sea the Stars is up there with the best horses we have seen. He is as good as Nashwan - only horse to win the 200g, Derby, KG and Eclipse, and Dancing Brave who was very unluckly not to win the Derby. Its exalted company.

Versatility is great. Dawn Run won the champion hurdle and Gold Cup, it doesnt mean that she was the best hurdler or chaser we have seen. Camelot could win the actual tripe crown (modern triple crown, really??) It doesnt make him Sea The Stars equal. Then again, Sea the Stars didnt win an all-aged mile event and its stretching it to say that he could have beaten Goldikova. Certainly he would have struggled on offical ratings and other objective ratings. He was naturally a 10f horse that got away with it in the Guineas due to the lack of a proper challenger. Same as Camelot.

Frankel is a natural miler. There really is no "may be the best we've seen". Unless you have seen Sea Bird (1965) or Brigidier Gerard (197-72) there is little doubt that Frankel is putting in repeated performances of that level if not higher. He may go to 10f, he could go to 6f, but we are going to see him fully campaigned as 4 year old, which is a far more sporting gesture from his owners than deciding to ignore begrudgers and stick to a mile.

I think if I was to hear anyone say that Usain Bolt hasnt really proven his greatness until he takes on the best 400m runners or milers I would class them as missing the point of athletics, ill-educated or just being deliberately begrudging or churlish. The same applies for Frankel.

Morgans

I understand what is said about Sea The Stars. It is interesting to assume what he could do fully extended. I think that there is very easy to exaggerate what you expect a horse like Sea The Stars to produce fully extended.

Trust me there is no bigger fan than me of Moscow Flyer. But I dont think he would have beaten Master Minded that day at Cheltenham and I dont think that he had much more in the locker when beating Well Chief and Azertyuiop in the Tingle Creek and definnitely not when winning the second QM.

More often than not, horses that you think could career away like Frankel dont.

Hawk Wing was a very underrated horse - vastly superior to Rock of Gibraltar - and showed what he could do that day in the lockinge. The ground played a big part in the win, inconveniencing Where or When, Tillerman etc, and the time was comparively average. But Frankel, on the clock, is setting huge records as well.

Hoping that horses have that performance in them and actually horses doing it are too hugely different things.

Nijinsky looked like he could dance all over any opposition and it was always assumed that he could pull 10l ahead when needed. Lester Piggot thought Sir Ivor was better.

Morgans

Richard Hoiles is the best commentator by a long way. Simon Holt past his best a decade ago. Clearly has been given the brief to educate these days.

Morgans

klairondavis wrote: »

There is always a propensity to overrate horses like Frankel because they will run to the limit of their ability and batter horses by 10 lengths plus.

This isnt over-rating. It is accurately rating. You may underrate Sea the Stars for not beating them by further. Its why most ratings agencies will use notations such as + or ++ to indicate that there is more there than what was actually shown on the track.

BQQ

Morgans wrote: »

Sea The Stars did beat barely average gp 1 animals in MasterCraftsman, Rip Van Winkle Fame and Glory and Delegator. Not forgetting Youmzain. He did it well and its a shame that we didnt see him at 4. A super horse.

If you say STS only beat average group1 animals, you'd have to say the same about Frankel.
Excellebration, side glance, dubawi gold. Not forgetting he was all-out to beat Zoffany 3/4 of a length in the St James palace last year.

A super horse, but best ever?
Definitely something to prove in that respect.

Morgans

Yeah. There are people who think that Excelebration's hungerford form last year was well into the 130s. Fair play to Ballydoyle for taking on Frankel so often as they could easily rack up a number of group 1s by avoiding him. I think he is a solid high 120s horse. The problem for the Frankel knockers is that beating him by 6l here and there makes Frankels form hugely impressive in the 140s constantly.

Yeah. Anyone who takes the St. James Palace Stakes form as being the most accurate representation of Frankels ability needs to have a look at themselves.

Yeah. Frankel has something to prove. You'll will be waiting a long long time before you see performances as good. If you cant appreciate it, I pity you.

the groutch

any chance of getting back on topic some time today?

tryfix

Morgans wrote: »

I understand what is said about Sea The Stars. It is interesting to assume what he could do fully extended. I think that there is very easy to exaggerate what you expect a horse like Sea The Stars to produce fully extended.
More often than not, horses that you think could career away like Frankel dont.

Hawk Wing was a very underrated horse - vastly superior to Rock of Gibraltar - and showed what he could do that day in the lockinge. The ground played a big part in the win, inconveniencing Where or When, Tillerman etc, and the time was comparively average. But Frankel, on the clock, is setting huge records as well.

Hoping that horses have that performance in them and actually horses doing it are too hugely different things.

Nijinsky looked like he could dance all over any opposition and it was always assumed that he could pull 10l ahead when needed. Lester Piggot thought Sir Ivor was better.

Take High Chaparral out of the 2002 Epsom derby and Hawk Wing would have won it by 12l from Moon Ballad who went on to win the Dubai World Cup. Probably one of the greatest Derbys ever and no one passes a bit of remarks on it.

Frankel deserves to be seen for what he is, an ultra consistent freak over 8f and 3 seasons, the form of those he beats can be rightly crabbed but Frankels utter dominance of them can't.

Excelebration is no Champion, he's a good horse who is about 6L to 8L inferior to Frankel ( he folded at the end of the Queen Anne ) his GP1 win was in the Moulin over horses like Rajsaman by 2l who has since been beaten by 9 3/4L (Cityscape), 11L (African Story) and 9 1/2L (Musir). Rajsaman was beaten 10L by Frankel in the Sussex.

Consistently beating a horse like Excelebration (5 times) doesn't make him the greatest horse ever. Looking like he'll never be beaten doing it shows he could be.

Nijinsky and Dancing Brave even Sea The Stars would have beat a horse like Excelebration with ease. They did more than beat horses at their optimum distance, they took on and beat the best that could be thrown at them over a variety of distances, the mark of a truly great horse.

tryfix

the groutch wrote: »

any chance of getting back on topic some time today?

What else is there to say about the BBCs horse racing coverage, good Camera work, an outrageously poor team of presenters. A barely competent race caller. Clare Balding a pathetic snob, Willie an old confused man who never tips a winner, Mick Fitz who looks like he hasn't prepared and just waffles on about flat horses when jumping is his game. Rishi a nice guy who doesn't know his arse from his elbow. The fat guy and John Parrot talking crap, Ray Cochrane knows his stuff but the undertaker he does the post race analysis with pulls him down.

They do a good job of the fashion but who cares.

Shane732

Why are people comparing Sea The Stars and Frankel?

Two totally different horses.

There's a comment earlier in the thread that Frankel would give Sea The Stars some ridiculous beating over a mile - that's great although Sea The Starts was a 1m 4f horse.

Appreciate them both for what they are - outstanding horses.

Back on topic: BBC coverage really pisses me off.

UrbanSea

Morgans wrote: »

Id fancy Frankel to give Sea The Stars 10lbs and a beating at a mile. And god knows how much more over 6f. But no one crabs Sea the Stars for not winning a July Cup. I think Frankel could win any Group 1 on any course in any ground from 5f to 10f at a minimum.

That Cecil has campaigned the horse less agressively last year has meant that he is still around this year to do that in the Queen Anne. If he was going to be roughed off to stud last year, you might have seen a different campaign. Believing that there is something to prove until he does is ridiculous and missing the point.

Urban Sea, my sarcasm detector is on the blink but the horses that you named beaten by Sea the Stars only reads as very average for me. Conduit? Dar Re Mi? Stacelita? In all Arcs you are going to get a collection of gp1 winners, but there are good years and there are average years. Youmzain holds down the form of every arc he was second in. Sea the Stars was clearly the best of his year, however, he was beating decent but not great by a length or two. Winning over different distance is superb and it was agreat achievement from a great horse, but Camelot winning the St. Leger would not confirm that he a better horse than Sea The Stars.

Its the level of performance that Ive been waiting for all these years. To see horses do what Sea Bird or Arkle did. Frankel is destroying group 1 horses and putting back to back to back astonishing performances. If you cant appreciate what he is doing, and refuse to accept what he is doing until he does it at 12f, you are in the wrong sport. Why is there a rush up in distance? What would he do the July Cup field?

Conduit won 2 Breeders Cup Turfs and a King George. Dad Re Mi was the best older filly in the world that year, she had won a weak Pretty Polly stakes before beating Sariska at York who had looked like the best filly around when she won the Irish oaks on the bridle and was then thrown out of the Vermeille in what must go down as the greatest injustice ive seen in racing before winning at Meydan from the World Cup winner, and she probably should have won the breeders cup that conduit did but Frankie got her boxed in after jimmy fOrtine was kicked off her.

Stacita as I said was being claimed by the French as the new zarka a before she was awarded the Vermeille. While she is no Zarka a she is still a top made, run away wins in the saint alary and a 4 length win in the Diane showed this, and she has won some grade 1s since coin to America. I have no issues with Frankel and am not one of his doubters, I just think you were too quick to put a line through sea the stars opposition and I have no doubt that he would give Sea the Stars a beating over a mile, but let's not forget that Rip Van Winkle is still the highest rates son of Galileo to stand at stud until Frankel goes and Sea the Stars gave him a beating over his favored distance (just in response to him beating average fr1 horses, not that the form would beat Frankel over a mile, not to mention plenty of peoplewould say Rip should have beaten Sea the Stars in the Eclipse if it weren't for Jimmy Fortune. I never believed it personally, but he was still the closest to defeating Sea the Stars at 3, and it did look like during the race they he would)


Edit I'm on an iPhone do excuse the letters missing in zarkava and other misspelt words

Shane732

Off topic but Hayley Turner is looking hotter and hotter!

tryfix

UrbanSea wrote: »

Conduit won 2 Breeders Cup Turfs and a King George. Dad Re Mi was the best older filly in the world that year, she had won a weak Pretty Polly stakes before beating Sariska at York who had looked like the best filly around when she won the Irish oaks on the bridle and was then thrown out of the Vermeille in what must go down as the greatest injustice ive seen in racing before winning at Meydan from the World Cup winner, and she probably should have won the breeders cup that conduit did but Frankie got her boxed in after jimmy fOrtine was kicked off her.

Stacita as I said was being claimed by the French as the new zarka a before she was awarded the Vermeille. While she is no Zarka a she is still a top made, run away wins in the saint alary and a 4 length win in the Diane showed this, and she has won some grade 1s since coin to America. I have no issues with Frankel and am not one of his doubters, I just think you were too quick to put a line through sea the stars opposition and I have no doubt that he would give Sea the Stars a beating over a mile, but let's not forget that Rip Van Winkle is still the highest rates son of Galileo to stand at stud until Frankel goes and Sea the Stars gave him a beating over his favored distance (just in response to him beating average fr1 horses, not that the form would beat Frankel over a mile, not to mention plenty of people would say Rip should have beaten Sea the Stars in the Eclipse if it weren't for Jimmy Fortune. I never believed it personally, but he was still the closest to defeating Sea the Stars at 3, and it did look like during the race they he would)

Sea The Stars quickened twice in that race without being all out, Rip Van Winkle was never going to beat him.

The key to how good Frankel is, is how good are the horses he beats. Excelebration is no Rip Van Winkle.

11 1/2 L superior to Side Glance 113, 12 1/2 L superior to 108 rated Indomito is exactly what Frankel produced on Teusday.

mr.jingle

Jim McGrath with another errible commentary on the first at Ascot saying Cay Verde was leading when easily 2 lengths behind completely fluffed the last 100meters and called the finish close when it was quite clear Reckless Abandon on the near side was well ahead at the line, terrible

klairondavis

Dreadful call from JA McGrath in the Norfolk. He used to be quite a good commentator when he first took over from O'Sullevan but the quality of his calls have deteriorated greatly in recent years.

I've started watching on ATR and putting up with the likes of Sir Bob, McCririck, the constant ad breaks and the thrupence halfpenny rubbish from Ripon. It's bad but it is vastly superior to BBC's coverage.

klairondavis

tryfix wrote: »

Sea The Stars quickened twice in that race without being all out, Rip Van Winkle was never going to beat him.

The key to how good Frankel is, is how good are the horses he beats. Excelebration is no Rip Van Winkle.

While I agree that Rip was a better horse than Excelebration is, I'm sceptical as to whether STS quickened twice at Sandown. When Rip got to STS's hind quarters, he got a smack in the face from Kinane's whip at around the furlong pole and shyed in behind but I still think STS would have beaten him comfortably. It was a similar story in the Juddmonte when Mastercraftsman looked to have him in a bit of bother at the furlong pole but STS was well on top at the line and pulling further clear.

Morgans

tryfix wrote: »

Take High Chaparral out of the 2002 Epsom derby and Hawk Wing would have won it by 12l from Moon Ballad who went on to win the Dubai World Cup. Probably one of the greatest Derbys ever and no one passes a bit of remarks on it.

Frankel deserves to be seen for what he is, an ultra consistent freak over 8f and 3 seasons, the form of those he beats can be rightly crabbed but Frankels utter dominance of them can't.

Excelebration is no Champion, he's a good horse who is about 6L to 8L inferior to Frankel ( he folded at the end of the Queen Anne ) his GP1 win was in the Moulin over horses like Rajsaman by 2l who has since been beaten by 9 3/4L (Cityscape), 11L (African Story) and 9 1/2L (Musir). Rajsaman was beaten 10L by Frankel in the Sussex.

Consistently beating a horse like Excelebration (5 times) doesn't make him the greatest horse ever. Looking like he'll never be beaten doing it shows he could be.

Nijinsky and Dancing Brave even Sea The Stars would have beat a horse like Excelebration with ease. They did more than beat horses at their optimum distance, they took on and beat the best that could be thrown at them over a variety of distances, the mark of a truly great horse.

Consistently posting ratings in the 140s, especially back to back, regardless of the opposition makes him the greatest since 1972 at least. It doesnt matter what horses are behind him. Its not Excelebration that is making the form, it the collatoral form around him.

The need for versatility is nonsense. Its the Usain Bolt needs to win at a mile to prove himself a great athlete argument. FWIW, Ive no doubt that Frankel could win group 1s at 5f to 10f and maybe even 12f. I do not think him any lesser of a horse for mopping up the mile races. That he hasnt so far hasnt stopped the performances. He is stepping up to 10f later this season. But 99% of owners would have him in stud now.

Sea The Stars guineas form is not close to Excelebration's mile form. At least 5lbs behind. Yes Excelebration folded in the QA, but it was also the first time since the Guineas that Frankel was fully stretched. We'll forget about Canford Cliffs of course. No worthwhile group 1 form there.

Or Immortal Verse - obliterated from the form books cos it doesnt suit the "all he ever beat was Excelebration" arguement.

Morgans

For those wanting to stick the BBC topic. They have been like this for 20 years. No one ever gets sacked. Untouchable and utterly useless. Any organisation that uses a professional from Snooker rather than someone knowledgable about the game shouldnt have the coverage. However, it is very old news.

meriwether

Shane732 wrote: »

Why are people comparing Sea The Stars and Frankel?Two totally different horses.

There's a comment earlier in the thread that Frankel would give Sea The Stars some ridiculous beating over a mile - that's great although Sea The Starts was a 1m 4f horse.

Appreciate them both for what they are - outstanding horses.

Back on topic: BBC coverage really pisses me off.

If we can't compare horses, how can we state that a particular horse is the best of all time?

meriwether

Morgans wrote: »

Consistently posting ratings in the 140s, especially back to back, regardless of the opposition makes him the greatest since 1972 at least. It doesnt matter what horses are behind him. Its not Excelebration that is making the form, it the collatoral form around him.

The need for versatility is nonsense. Its the Usain Bolt needs to win at a mile to prove himself a great athlete argument. FWIW, Ive no doubt that Frankel could win group 1s at 5f to 10f and maybe even 12f. I do not think him any lesser of a horse for mopping up the mile races. That he hasnt so far hasnt stopped the performances. He is stepping up to 10f later this season. But 99% of owners would have him in stud now.

Sea The Stars guineas form is not close to Excelebration's mile form. At least 5lbs behind. Yes Excelebration folded in the QA, but it was also the first time since the Guineas that Frankel was fully stretched. We'll forget about Canford Cliffs of course. No worthwhile group 1 form there.

Or Immortal Verse - obliterated from the form books cos it doesnt suit the "all he ever beat was Excelebration" arguement.

Nobody is saying that Usain Bolt has to win at a mile, just like nobody is saying Frankel has to win a Gold Cup at Ascot, so to be honest, these rather unlikely comparisons can stop.

There's a niche that Frankel can operate in, somewhere between 5f and 10f, as you said, like STS was 8f-12f.

Shane732

meriwether wrote: »

If we can't compare horses, how can we state that a particular horse is the best of all time?

You can't.

Is Frankel better than Kauto Star?

tryfix

Morgans wrote: »

Consistently posting ratings in the 140s, especially back to back, regardless of the opposition makes him the greatest since 1972 at least. It doesnt matter what horses are behind him. Its not Excelebration that is making the form, it the collatoral form around him.

The need for versatility is nonsense. Its the Usain Bolt needs to win at a mile to prove himself a great athlete argument. FWIW, Ive no doubt that Frankel could win group 1s at 5f to 10f and maybe even 12f. I do not think him any lesser of a horse for mopping up the mile races. That he hasnt so far hasnt stopped the performances. He is stepping up to 10f later this season. But 99% of owners would have him in stud now.

Sea The Stars guineas form is not close to Excelebration's mile form. At least 5lbs behind. Yes Excelebration folded in the QA, but it was also the first time since the Guineas that Frankel was fully stretched. We'll forget about Canford Cliffs of course. No worthwhile group 1 form there.

Canford Cliffs beat Rio De Plata 5L in the Queen Anne, he only beat the same horse by 2 1/2L in the Sussex when he hung badly left, something went wrong. Frankels Sussex win was good for a 2 1/2 L beating of Canfords Cliffs at his best, nothing more nothing less. It's pointless crabbing Frankels greatness, he's obviously awesome, I'd just like to see something like So You Think take him on at a mile and a quarter to see what he's like when he's up against a solid horse who won't throw the towel in.

meriwether

Shane732 wrote: »

You can't.

Is Frankel better than Kauto Star?

Yes, but not as good as Pegasus.

Morgans

tryfix wrote: »

Canford Cliffs beat Rio De Plata 5L in the Queen Anne, he only beat the same horse by 2 1/2L in the Sussex when he hung badly left, something went wrong. Frankels Sussex win was good for a 2 1/2 L beating of Canfords Cliffs at his best, nothing more nothing less. It's pointless crabbing Frankels greatness, he's obviously awesome, I'd just like to see something like So You Think take him on at a mile and a quarter to see what he's like when he's up against a solid horse who won't throw the towel in.

The bonus of So You Think is that he ultra consistent. I think Frankel would eat him. But you'd have a pretty solid line on which to rate him. I dont think that you can run balls out like Frankel did in the QA too often. And if anything accounts for the poor showing in the St James Palace last year, it was the guineas effort.

The funny thing about using distances like you have done there - and was done when using Side Glance (which still brings Frankel as running conservatively to the high 130s) is that had the Queen Anne been run an hour later, Frankel would have won by 12l.

You are also assuming that Rio De La Plata ran the same race in teh Queen Anne and the Sussex.

Morgans

meriwether wrote: »

Nobody is saying that Usain Bolt has to win at a mile, just like nobody is saying Frankel has to win a Gold Cup at Ascot, so to be honest, these rather unlikely comparisons can stop.

There's a niche that Frankel can operate in, somewhere between 5f and 10f, as you said, like STS was 8f-12f.

No one would expect Usain Bolt to prove his greatness at 400m and if he never ran in a 200m ever again, it wouldnt detract from what he does at 100.

Sea the Stars was very good at several distances but never better at 8, 10f or 12f, than Frankel is at a mile.

That's the point.

gscully

<Moved to the Athletics forum>

tryfix

Morgans wrote: »

The bonus of So You Think is that he ultra consistent. I think Frankel would eat him. But you'd have a pretty solid line on which to rate him. I dont think that you can run balls out like Frankel did in the QA too often. And if anything accounts for the poor showing in the St James Palace last year, it was the guineas effort.

The funny thing about using distances like you have done there - and was done when using Side Glance (which still brings Frankel as running conservatively to the high 130s) is that had the Queen Anne been run an hour later, Frankel would have won by 12l.

You are also assuming that Rio De La Plata ran the same race in teh Queen Anne and the Sussex.

Well the way Canford Cliffs ran in the Sussex, he hung badly, so he cracked under pressure or injury which meant Rio De Plata ran his usual solid race to close on an underperforming Canford Cliffs. Frankels surge when it comes seems to crack the good horses that try to go with him, the average horses that just run their races without getting into a battle with him are the best indicators of the worth of his performances. The Dubawi Golds, are the horses that people should be using to rate him. Beaten 9L by Frankel in May, 18L by Penitent in April and 8 3/4 L by Master Of The Hounds in March.

meriwether

Morgans wrote: »

No one would expect Usain Bolt to prove his greatness at 400m and if he never ran in a 200m ever again, it wouldnt detract from what he does at 100.

Sea the Stars was very good at several distances but never better at 8, 10f or 12f, than Frankel is at a mile.
That's the point.

In your opinion, and thats fine. In my opinion, STS Arc is an equal achievement as anything Frankel has done at 8f.

From an earlier post, its obvious you attach less merit to that win than I do, and again, that is fine.

IMO, it was the demolition of an Arc field having encountered bad traffic problems, and on all known form (Youmzain) was a good enough performance to win at least 2 other Arcs with minimum of fuss.

I know you're not saying STS is a bad horse, and indeed you are saying he is a very good horse, BTW.

klairondavis

Here starts the Dettori love in. "The most successful jockey in Royal Ascot history" according to Balding? I think a certain Mr Piggott might disagree Claire. :rolleyes: