Images of Irish cycling -- Irish Times Health supplement article on cycle safety

Iwannahurl

The Irish Times had a feature in their HealthPlus supplement on Tuesday, under the headline How safe is it to cycle our streets?

They chose to illustrate the piece with this photo:




Gaffe or subtle agitation?

Not surprisingly, adverse comments about footpath cycling came thick and fast. See comments on webpage above, and the IT Letters page (more over the coming days I have no doubt): http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/

buffalo

What age is she, five, six? Hands up who'd let a six year old cycle on the road, outside of a housing estate?

Lumen

buffalo wrote: »

Hands up who'd let a six year old cycle on the road, outside of a housing estate?

My hand is up.

seamus

The child is five.

I think it's clear from the picture that traffic would have difficulty spotting the child due to her small size, so the only safe way to have her on any road would be to ride two abreast with her on the inside. But in many cases this isn't safe because you still have to contend with overtaking parked vehicles and a relatively innocuous bump in the road could cause her smaller bike to lose control.

I know it's legal for a child under 12 to ride on the path, but what about adults accompanying them?

buffalo

Lumen wrote: »

My hand is up.

shush you!

I'm not a parent, so I guess I'm lacking a certain perspective here on kids' abilities, but I know when I've taken 8-10 year olds on cycles, they've been very wobbly and nervous on the road. I'd be hesitant even at that age in putting them on the road, but perhaps their nervousness stems from inexperience.

Do you take the kids out regularly Lumen? Taught them how to behave in terms of defensiveness / common sense?

Iwannahurl

buffalo wrote: »

Hands up who'd let a six year old cycle on the road, outside of a housing estate?

A majority of Copenhageners perhaps?

buffalo

Iwannahurl wrote: »

A majority of Copenhageners perhaps?

Um, the picture was taken in Ireland.

I appreciate the point, but I would prefer to talk about the practicalities of cycling with young children in Ireland at the moment.

le petit braquet

Its not just a random picture but is actually Dr Ciaran Simms with his children who is quoted in the article. In fairness it may have been just a posed picture which was easier to take on the path rather than risk a photographer taking a shot on the road. Also while in general I disagree with cyclists on the path, there is a world of difference between a man and his kids ambling along at walking pace and a cyclist zipping along at even 15 kph

Iwannahurl

buffalo wrote: »

Um, the picture was taken in Ireland.

I appreciate the point, but I would prefer to talk about the practicalities of cycling with young children in Ireland at the moment.

In which case, FYP:

buffalo wrote: »

What age is she, five, six? Hands up who'd let a six year old cycle on an Irish road, outside of an Irish housing estate?

I took the second picture in Copenhagen, BTW. Saw lots of kids cycling on the road there too (not just bike paths), on their own or parents' bikes.

Mycroft H

5 is probably a bit young for the road to be honest.

There was no foot paths where I grew up so I was cycling on the roads the whole time. In several years of being accompanied I was cycling to school on my own by the age of 8-9. (2km to the primary school on rural back roads). Traffic was a lot lighter back then though.

Kids need to shown that the road is the place to cycle so that they are not cycling on footpath when they are an adult. Its all practice. As for a safe technique for dealing with kids? An experienced cyclist at the front and back and the child in the middle.

Tenzor07

Jeeze the comments on the Times are more concerned about the picture of the 2 bikes on the path than the more important safety concerns of having a young child follow the parent on an open road! Which in my opinion is far too dangerous anyways!

As for the 30kph city centre limit, it's a joke too, i've been cycling through town on occasion at 30kph+ and been over taken as if i am not moving at all!

I agree about the taxi drivers driving too close and too fast, pulling into the footpath with little or no-notice...

...Though can't say I understand the compulsion the "schwaaa's" in passenger seats of soup'd up VW Polo's etc have for shouting out the window's at you when they pass?


/rant

Iwannahurl

le petit braquet wrote: »

Its not just a random picture but is actually Dr Ciaran Simms with his children who is quoted in the article. In fairness it may have been just a posed picture which was easier to take on the path rather than risk a photographer taking a shot on the road. Also while in general I disagree with cyclists on the path, there is a world of difference between a man and his kids ambling along at walking pace and a cyclist zipping along at even 15 kph

I'm wondering was it a deliberate editorial decision or a bit of a gaffe.

Either way, the adverse comments predictably arrived, and they will keep coming.

Will this stimulate constructive and rational discussion about cycle safety, or will it foment yet more anti-cyclist feeling, during Bike Week and all?

Jawgap

Tenzor07 wrote: »

...Though can't say I understand the compulsion the "schwaaa's" in passenger seats of soup'd up VW Polo's etc have for shouting out the window's at you when they pass?


/rant

You don't have to understand it - the work Dr Gilles de la Tourette provides ample explanation

NamelessPhil

seamus wrote: »

The child is five.

I know it's legal for a child under 12 to ride on the path, but what about adults accompanying them?

There is no legal age permitting cycling on the footpath. Footpaths are only for pedestrians.

Lumen

Kids are OK on footpaths up to the age of about 5, until when they're usually cycling at walking or slow jogging pace.

At age six (ish) they get a huge turn of speed. 20kph is not unusual although those intervals tend to be punctuated by puddle hunting, doing-the-superman, karate-kicking passing foliage, moaning about the distance to the next cake stop, and so on.

At that stage cycling on footpaths becomes hazardous and annoying for all the same reasons as it is for experienced adult cyclists - more junctions, obstructions, pedestrians to navigate around, cars pulling in and out of driveways.

When cycling on the road, visibility to other traffic isn't really a problem as you can cycle directly behind and offset to the outside. The main skill to teach is planning and anticipation, but kids really are amazingly capable of learning provided that they're not too knackered to concentrate.

I guess my view is therefore not that cycling on the road with a six year old is a particularly great idea, but that the obvious alternative (the footpath) is a miserable place to ride and not necessarily safer.

Safety aside, riding on the road with kids does require an enormously thick skin. You can sense the scorn pouring from the passing traffic.

Mycroft H

NamelessPhil wrote: »

There is no legal age permitting cycling on the footpath. Footpaths are only for pedestrians.

Person under 12 has not met the age of legal responsibility and cant be charged with and offence.

Surveyor11

buffalo wrote: »

Lumen wrote: »

My hand is up.

shush you!

I'm not a parent, so I guess I'm lacking a certain perspective here on kids' abilities, but I know when I've taken 8-10 year olds on cycles, they've been very wobbly and nervous on the road. I'd be hesitant even at that age in putting them on the road, but perhaps their nervousness stems from inexperience.

Do you take the kids out regularly Lumen? Taught them how to behave in terms of defensiveness / common sense?

I have a 5 year old son, been cycling since he's 4 so already a vet. I'm lucky in that where I live in carpenterstown there's plenty of cycling lanes which will get us to most places in our locaiity by bike. In saying that, if we venture further afield like the phoenix park, no way I'd let him on the road wirh traffic, maybe in a few years, but definitely not now

Tenzor07

NamelessPhil wrote: »

There is no legal age permitting cycling on the footpath. Footpaths are only for pedestrians.

On that point I am fed up with having to dodge pedestrian's on the limited number of "cycle paths" we have around the city.. Phoenix park and Clontarf cycle lanes in particular...the the only well surfaced and glass/stone free cycle paths around...

seamus

NamelessPhil wrote: »

There is no legal age permitting cycling on the footpath. Footpaths are only for pedestrians.

Learn something new every day.

The RSA seem to state that a child under 12 should not be allowed cycle unsupervised, which is probably where I got this from, but there are no regulations which require this. Further digging states that the RSA recommend it, not require it.

Certainly I was cycling on the road unsupervised from the age of about 8. Though I do recall also spending a lot of time on the path too.

ford2600

It is never safe on footpath for kids, it may appear safer, but they are at huge risk at vehicular entrance across footpath be they house or commercial entrances.
Way too low for even prudent motorist to notice, and they can be thin on the ground

Lumen wrote: »

Kids are OK on footpaths up to the age of about 5, until when they're usually cycling at walking or slow jogging pace.

At age six (ish) they get a huge turn of speed. 20kph is not unusual although those intervals tend to be punctuated by puddle hunting, doing-the-superman, karate-kicking passing foliage, moaning about the distance to the next cake stop, and so on.

At that stage cycling on footpaths becomes hazardous and annoying for all the same reasons as it is for experienced adult cyclists - more junctions, obstructions, pedestrians to navigate around, cars pulling in and out of driveways.

When cycling on the road, visibility to other traffic isn't really a problem as you can cycle directly behind and offset to the outside. The main skill to teach is planning and anticipation, but kids really are amazingly capable of learning provided that they're not too knackered to concentrate.

I guess my view is therefore not that cycling on the road with a six year old is a particularly great idea, but that the obvious alternative (the footpath) is a miserable place to ride and not necessarily safer.

Safety aside, riding on the road with kids does require an enormously thick skin. You can sense the scorn pouring from the passing traffic.

Mucco

It always annoys me that people constantly seem to focus on cycling on the footpath as if it was a major hazard.

UK pedestrian collisions by vehicle type:
73% car, 10% motorbike, 8% bus/coach, 7% goods, 1% pedal cycle.

Of course, being hit by 80Kg of bike+cyclists at low speed is probably better than 1500Kg of car at higher speed, so even the 1% over estimates the hazard.

Regarding legality: the garda website lists that 35,000 fixed charge notices per month are issued for speeding, mobile phone use, seatbelts etc....


This is a PR issue for cycling, and given the evidence, should be winnable. I think forum members should come up with strategies to persuade pedestrians and motorists, without alienating them.

doozerie

Lumen wrote:

Safety aside, riding on the road with kids does require an enormously thick skin. You can sense the scorn pouring from the passing traffic.

To my mind this is a huge part of the supposed "problem" of kids cycling on roads. It is basically socially taboo, and seems to be becoming ever more so as nonsense about how dangerous cycling is generally gets ever more casually reiterated and/or fed by the likes of the AA, the RSA, the media generally, etc. So before you ever get to the stage of determining whether your child can safely cycle on the roads local to you you've first got to decide whether you can face the disapproval that you'll be confronted with for even considering it in the first place.

Many people seem to live in fear of what they perceive are the dangers posed by being on the roads and they are determined to share and spread that fear amongst others. My wife and I have had this fear expressed to us several times in relation to the child trailer that we use, for example, and given it's harness and roll cage (and the stats for bicycle collisions versus motorised vehicle collisions) it's hard to imagine a safer means of a child travelling on the road. And the more that this fear takes hold the less children we'll see on the roads and the more hysteria will be generated by the prospect of seeing a single child cycling.

I can't honestly say that I'll succeed in overcoming this fear myself when my daughter gets to an age where cycling on the road seems feasible for her, but I'll certainly try to maintain some degree of rationality when the time comes and we have to decide when she can safely use the road. Based on the general social attitude to kids cycling on roads it seems like many people are not even willing to consider what could amount to a difficult and stressful decision, which is sad.

Iwannahurl

NamelessPhil wrote: »

There is no legal age permitting cycling on the footpath. Footpaths are only for pedestrians.

Is it that clear?

Just had someone quote this at me in the Galway City forum:

“road” includes—

(a) any street, lane, footpath, square, court, alley or passage,

(b) any bridge, viaduct, underpass, subway, tunnel, overpass, overbridge, flyover, carriageway (whether single or multiple), pavement or footway,

coolbeans

The comments section at the end of online newspaper articles should be closed permanently. Reading them makes me despair for humanity.

monument

I'm glad the cargo bike will allow me to put off the how young is too young on the road issue for as long as possible.

Re cycling on footpaths: For the first six months of my son's life I was mostly confined to using the buggy or body carrier, people ambling along on the footpath were rarely a problem, the few going at speed on paths were, but by far the largest problems (a) motorists blocking ped crossing and (b) motorists blocking or just being on footpaths (you never know if they are going to move or not). And when I say blocking footpaths, I suppose I should include those rolling through the crossing even when they have a red light, and those doing the same at speed.

Cyclists on footpaths can be talked to or otherwise forced of the path, which is harder to do when somebody parks their car on the path and walks off somewhere. Even most motorists who are in their cars parked on a path don't seem to think they are doing anything wrong, while most cyclists know they are in the wrong and give way or get off, or say sorry.

After that six month of daily pram use, I'm bemused at how cyclists get mentioned as this great danger to footpath users and motorists never do.

coolbeans wrote: »

The comments section at the end of online newspaper articles should be closed permanently. Reading them makes me despair for humanity.

Some people say the same about boards.ie -- all of boards or parts of it, or all of it because they've only read parts of it.

fat bloke

Cycling with my kids on the road brings out my inner Mammy-Tyrannosaurus-Rex protective instincts. If anyone wants to run my kids over, it'll literally be over my dead body.

Either way, I find it about as relaxing and wholesome a family activity as crossing a minefield.

NamelessPhil

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Is it that clear?

Just had someone quote this at me in the Galway City forum:

“road” includes—

(a) any street, lane, footpath, square, court, alley or passage,

(b) any bridge, viaduct, underpass, subway, tunnel, overpass, overbridge, flyover, carriageway (whether single or multiple), pavement or footway,

Yes, it is clear. The principle definition of a road from the Roads Act, 1993 does include the footpath but the sub-definition of a footpath and footway states that:-
"“footpath” means a road over which there is a public right of way for pedestrians only, not being a footway;
“footway” means that portion of any road associated with a roadway which is provided primarily for use by pedestrians"

reallyunique

I regularly cycle with my girls (7 & 10) and have had few major issues. The youngest has only performed one really dangerous manoeuvre and we changed our route so that won't happen again.
Getting kids to cycle safely on the road takes time and patience. Starting off in a park until they're stable, then moving on to roads with live traffic. My 10 year old cycles to and from school (4km) on her own whilst I cycle with her sister.
The main problem with younger kids is they find even quite minor hills daunting and once they feel tired they make mistakes. You just can't push them too far.

Having said all that, I still won't let them go around Trinity College/Fleet street and the Walkinstown roundabout is off limits too. I'm not sure I always feel safe at these spots!

I have found drivers to be very considerate towards the girls (with one huge exception) and we enjoy cycling together. The best reaction is from kids in 4x4s looking on enviously from their child harnesses. We regularly get smiles and kind words from pedestrians and other road users and whilst I'd recommend it to anyone you have to be able to assess you own and your children's abilities, no bull****, their lives depend on it. If you feel scared to try, don't. We love it!

Iwannahurl

NamelessPhil wrote: »

Yes, it is clear. The principle definition of a road from the Roads Act, 1993 does include the footpath but the sub-definition of a footpath and footway states that:-
"“footpath” means a road over which there is a public right of way for pedestrians only, not being a footway;
“footway” means that portion of any road associated with a roadway which is provided primarily for use by pedestrians"

Thanks. Very useful info.

tomasrojo

The article seems to imply that cyclists are ultimately a burden on the health system. This is not remotely true.

Cookie_Monster

never mind them being on the path, look at all the ridiculous gear they have on...

The below is how you should advertise cycling to make it attractive to people, not a photo of a cold wet day, it's the middle of summer ffs

Iwannahurl wrote: »

normal people in normal clothes cycling along, rather the the OP photo with them smothered in ridiculous safety gear and high vis

studiorat

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

never mind them being on the path, look at all the ridiculous gear they have on...

The below is how you should advertise cycling to make it attractive to people, not a photo of a cold wet day, it's the middle of summer ffs

normal people in normal clothes cycling along, rather the the OP photo with them smothered in ridiculous safety gear and high vis

'solutely, one on the phone, the other with headphone on. Can we get some dutch bird with an umbrella in here too?

galwaycyclist

BX 19 wrote: »

Person under 12 has not met the age of legal responsibility and cant be charged with and offence.

True. But it is also true that under the children act (2005?) an adult who procures a child to commit an offence also commits an offence.

buffalo

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

a photo of a cold wet day, it's the middle of summer ffs

So you've looked outside this morning then.

Chinasea

Heard George Hooke moaning about cyclists the other night. Nothing that he said boar any relevance to how or what hazards the cyclist must negotiate on the streets of Dublin every time they put their live in their hands and get on their bike whilst not polluting the lungs of the moaning car drivers.

He typified the 'I hate cyclists' attitude that is so common in Ireland which is based on pure flake. Yes of course we have people who commit 'heinous cycling crimes' but they are not the majority.

el tel

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Love the jaunty helmet postioning on the wee girl

Iwannahurl

tomasrojo wrote: »

The article seems to imply that cyclists are ultimately a burden on the health system. This is not remotely true.

Agreed. No comparable figures supplied in relation to fatalities and injuries among car occupants, for example. And no accounting for the health benefits of cycling, which far outweigh the risks.

That said, the hospital in-patient admissions figures for injured cyclists, running at ten times the level reported in Garda stats, ought to concentrate minds.

Regarding that HSE report, what has the response been from cycle campaign groups, including the national association cyclist.ie?

Cookie_Monster

buffalo wrote: »

So you've looked outside this morning then.

yes, it's the middle of winter and was thundering out of the heavens, but I am down under

hardCopy

Chinasea wrote: »

Heard George Hooke moaning about cyclists the other night. Nothing that he said boar any relevance to how or what hazards the cyclist must negotiate on the streets of Dublin every time they put their live in their hands and get on their bike whilst not polluting the lungs of the moaning car drivers.

He typified the 'I hate cyclists' attitude that is so common in Ireland which is based on pure flake. Yes of course we have people who commit 'heinous cycling crimes' but they are not the majority.

George can't decide what he wants to be when he grows up, although he has narrowed it down to Jeremy Clarkson, Eamonn Dunphy or a Rugby Pundit.

On the topic of kids on the road, I often see a father and daughter on my commute with one of those trailers that are basically a childs bike with no fork attached to the parent's seatpost, seems to work quite well, the child is getting exercise and the father is still in control.

One of my workmates has a similar set up for his kid except the kid has a full bike and the dad has a tow-bar that can be attached to the kids handlebars, similar benefits but the kid can cycle by himself until he gets tired or traffic gets ropey.

BostonB

Surveyor11 wrote: »

I have a 5 year old son, been cycling since he's 4 so already a vet. I'm lucky in that where I live in carpenterstown there's plenty of cycling lanes which will get us to most places in our locaiity by bike. In saying that, if we venture further afield like the phoenix park, no way I'd let him on the road wirh traffic, maybe in a few years, but definitely not now

While the cycle lanes there are handy. They are also very poorly designed and constructed. They all stop before they get anywhere, shops, schools etc. Forcing the family onto the road, or the path. Every roundabout handles the cycle lanes completely differently. Has no access to the roundabout, dumps you into the road in the middle of the roundabout, stops short of the roundabout.

Then they are constucted so poorly they are rippled tarmac. Its like riding over cobble stones. Fine for kids. But you couldn't commute using them. But if you go on the road cars, beep you to use the cycle lane. Then thes the point they stop at random forcing over a 6" curb to get back to the road. Most commuters ignore them.

But that said they are much better than not having them and they do get you around the local area ok. So while I criticise them, I love having them.

But I agree with you on putting kids on the road. They've forced a lot of cars to rat run though estates, and back narrow country roads. So cars are speeding, and it would be inappropriate to have kids on those roads. I agree with your example. The North Quays would be safer for kids IMO.

Its a bit nuts you've a area the size of a small city D.15. With the phoenix park on its direct route into the city center. Yet no cycle lanes routes into it.

They should really make cycle super highways on the busiest routes in and around town. Rather than this random scattering of paths here and there that are unconnected.

BostonB

As for cycling on paths. I don't really see the fuss. Ok if you are going at any speed, get on the road, and most people will do that because its easiest and safest way to cycle around Dublin. For people and kids just going slowly and giving way to pedestrians, I don't see the issue. If they aren't a danger to people then really who cares.

Quite often in Dublin crossing a bit of footpath might save you 5 mins of a loop, even avoid a dangerous road, or junction. But if someone's cycling dangerously thats a different thing though.

The new grand canal cycle path actually brings cycles onto the footpath at least in one point I know off. As do many other other cycle paths which just end for no reason.

Lumen

BostonB wrote: »

As for cycling on paths. I don't really see the fuss. Ok if you are going at any speed, get on the road, and most people will do that because its easiest and safest way to cycle around Dublin. For people and kids just going slowly and giving way to pedestrians, I don't see the issue. If they aren't a danger to people then really who cares.

Footpaths are really slow. It's about 6km from my house to the Phoenix Park. On the road that takes about 20 minutes. On the footpaths it's more like 35 minutes. Those times are with a six year old. For the round trip that's half an hour we could spend eating cake and doing skids.

BostonB

Lumen wrote: »

Footpaths are really slow. It's about 6km from my house to the Phoenix Park. On the road that takes about 20 minutes. On the footpaths it's more like 35 minutes. Those times are with a six year old. For the round trip that's half an hour we could spend eating cake and doing skids.

Thats great, but for me I meet to many many aggressive and speeding drivers on the Carpenterstown Rd, Castleknock College route when I'm commuting on the bike to want to bring kids on it. You've also got a big busy roundabout to get through. I'm not shy about commanding my space on the road either.

I don't get why the foot paths would be that slow. Theres almost no drive ways, and side roads to break the foot paths on that route. Maybe you go a different way though.

I don't see why they couldn't take out some of the ditch, headgerow along that route and great a decent cycle path as main route into the park. Theres one or two pinch points. But the rest of it has capacity to take a cycle lane.

Iwannahurl

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

yes, it's the middle of winter and was thundering out of the heavens, but I am down under

Hmmm, I was in Melbourne for three months earlier this year.

Australia enjoys a reputation for good road safety, but I wasn't impressed.

Lots of cyclists visible in Melbourne, but conditions are not great IMO, though the weather is better than here of course.

My impressions, in no particular order: lots of dodgy short-cut manoeuvres by cyclists at pedestrian lights, significant numbers of unlit but stolidly helmeted cyclists at night, wide multi-lane junctions with no provision for cyclists, narrow and tokenistic cycle lanes in the Central Business District so as not to take space from cars, motorists using cycle lanes and ASLs as left-turning lanes at junctions where a lane had been taken away to upgrade tram stops, dooring incidents reportedly a significant hazard in the CBD, commuter cycling mainly the preserve of sporty Lyrca-clad people on speedy bikes, the Melbourne bike share scheme a miserable failure.

And so on. I didn't cycle once while in Melbourne, which was highly unusual for me, especially on a trip that long.

Not surprisingly, about 90% of trips in Melbourne are made by car. Whatever about road safety, theirs is definitely not a cycling culture, and cycling, while popular and in broad terms on the rise, is much less respected than motoring. As in Ireland, this long-established lack of true respect, conducive public policy and supportive culture mean that promotion of cycling can be hard going.

http://www.theage.com.au/executive-style/fitness/blogs/on-your-bike/why-cyclists-should-never-pay-rego-20120614-20bk6.html

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/cyclists-plead-on-dooring-penalties-20120523-1z5sz.html

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/vicroads-baulks-at-dooring-demerit-push-20120503-1y072.html

Lumen

BostonB wrote: »

Thats great, but for me I meet to many many aggressive and speeding drivers on the Carpenterstown Rd, Castleknock College route when I'm commuting on the bike to want to bring kids on it...I don't see why they couldn't take out some of the ditch, headgerow along that route and great a decent cycle path as main route into the park. Theres one or two pinch points. But the rest of it has capacity to take a cycle lane.

Right. We have all that lovely cycle lane stuff from Clonsilla to Carpenterstown, then a short stretch of death-dodging past the College, then the nice run into Farmleigh.

That ought to be fixable, surely? There's also that bit from Carpenterstown to the road that goes under the bridge, which is at least well sighted.

BostonB wrote: »

I don't get why the foot paths would be that slow. Theres almost no drive ways, and side roads to break the foot paths on that route. Maybe you go a different way though.

Yes, through Roselawn.

Iwannahurl

BostonB wrote: »

As for cycling on paths. I don't really see the fuss. Ok if you are going at any speed, get on the road, and most people will do that because its easiest and safest way to cycle around Dublin. For people and kids just going slowly and giving way to pedestrians, I don't see the issue. If they aren't a danger to people then really who cares.

Quite often in Dublin crossing a bit of footpath might save you 5 mins of a loop, even avoid a dangerous road, or junction. But if someone's cycling dangerously thats a different thing though.

The new grand canal cycle path actually brings cycles onto the footpath at least in one point I know off. As do many other other cycle paths which just end for no reason.

Footpath cycling is yet another Irish solution to an Irish problem.

The "who cares" attitude lies at the heart of it, IMO, as it does with so many other issues in this country.

If more Irish policy-makers, roads engineers and cyclists actually cared about our roads environment we'd be a lot better off.

If people cared about such things we wouldn't have to resort to footpath cycling as a means of avoiding things like cycle-hostile traffic signals and junctions, unnecessary detours, dangerous driving and discontinuous "cycle routes".

But sure why bother, isn't it grand?

I was at a meeting a couple of years ago where I tried to engage Local Authority officials on the issue of footpath obstruction by motorists. Their dismissive response was that "common sense must prevail" and that they couldn't rigorously enforce the law in that regard because then, logically and morally, they would have to start prosecuting cyclists for cycling on footpaths and going up one-way streets.

In other words, footpath cycling is the Irish solution to the Irish problem of not caring enough about your job to uphold the law, plan properly and make proper provision for sustainable modes of travel such as cycling and walking. Sure who needs to make a contra-flow cycle lane, complete a cycle route, modify a junction or enforce speed limits when cyclists can just go on the footpath? It'll do. And sure nobody cares anyway.

BostonB

Lumen wrote: »

Right. We have all that lovely cycle lane stuff from Clonsilla to Carpenterstown, then a short stretch of death-dodging past the College, then the nice run into Farmleigh.

That ought to be fixable, surely? There's also that bit from Carpenterstown to the road that goes under the bridge, which is at least well sighted.

Under the bridge is fine because its wide, even they do race through it. But its the other bits. The stretch outside Dunnes Gaff and the college. Some nasty potholes and it seems to attract really fast and close overtaking there, squeezing through gaps that aren't there.

TBH on my commute from D.14 to D.4 its the bit I dislike the most on the bike.

I hate ramps, but I kinda needs them, though maps didn't really stop speeding on the diswellstown road. It did drop the average speed a bit though.

Lumen wrote: »

Yes, through Roselawn.

Ah yes that path would be a pain alright. But thats a wide road and its got regular speed ramps on it. Speeds around there are a lot lower, than up on Carpenterstown/Diswellstown Road. I'd cycle the road there with kids of that age 6+ aswell.

BostonB

Iwannahurl wrote: »

...But sure why bother, isn't it grand?....

My point wasn't don't bother its grand. But the effort that is focused on a handful of people cycling on the path, and very few (if any) accidents, is completely out of proportion to other issues which would be more effective. Something simple like the bottom of Lesson St being buses only for no reason. Or spending vast amounts of money of very poor cycle lanes. I noted on the Grand Canal Path the other day that the lights for the cycle aren't in synch with the pedestrian lights going in the same direction. Its nonsensical. Rigorously enforcing the law is never going to happen. Someone using that as an excuse to avoid fixing the infrastructure should be fired as inept. Lack of accountability is the root of a lot of the problems IMO.

Regardless of all that here we are all focused on a 6yr old on a footpath.

check_six

My 6 year old lad has been cycling to school since he was 4. He started off on the footpath with stabilisers, but it took a good while to get to school as we had to keep stopping at sideroads. As his pedalling strength increased I contemplated when I should introduce him to cycling on the road. My mind was made up one day when he nearly got run over by a car emerging from a side road at a blind corner. The car roared up towards the edge of the main road and did not make any allowance for anyone coming on the footpath around the blind corner he could not see. Jammed on brakes from my lad and the car avoided an accident.

I asked my lad to put his bike on the road there and then, and we haven't looked back since. On the road we don't have to stop at every sideroad and driveway and we get to school in approximately half the time as rolling on the footpath.

I cycle just behind and outside his right shoulder and give him a running commentary on potential hazards ahead. I also ask him to pick a line a stick to it rather than weaving around. Also, I get him to not go too close to the footpath lest he bump off it and fall off.

His teacher in school encourages them to wear helmets on their bikes. I'm not fussy if he leaves the helmet behind the odd time. I encourage him to wear gloves.

He's 6 and a half now and I'm quite impressed by his hazard perception and discipline on the road. He has spotted parked cars with drivers in them about to move before I did. I think any kid can learn how to cycle on the road safely quite quickly with the right coaching. You've got to be able to try and describe what you are doing automatically in your head and this takes a bit of practice.

galwaycyclist

check_six wrote: »

He's 6 and a half now and I'm quite impressed by his hazard perception and discipline on the road. He has spotted parked cars with drivers in them about to move before I did. I think any kid can learn how to cycle on the road safely quite quickly with the right coaching. You've got to be able to try and describe what you are doing automatically in your head and this takes a bit of practice.

Yes this is pretty much the current thinking on cycle training. What changes with kids is the nature of the roads where they are allowed to cycle. The instructor is required to review with them where they have been trained to cycle and where they have not.

Iwannahurl

BostonB wrote: »

My point wasn't don't bother its grand. But the effort that is focused on a handful of people cycling on the path, and very few (if any) accidents, is completely out of proportion to other issues which would be more effective. Something simple like the bottom of Lesson St being buses only for no reason. Or spending vast amounts of money of very poor cycle lanes. I noted on the Grand Canal Path the other day that the lights for the cycle aren't in synch with the pedestrian lights going in the same direction. Its nonsensical. Rigorously enforcing the law is never going to happen. Someone using that as an excuse to avoid fixing the infrastructure should be fired as inept. Lack of accountability is the root of a lot of the problems IMO.

Regardless of all that here we are all focused on a 6yr old on a footpath.

1. What effort? And it's far more than a handful cycling on the footpath -- it's commonplace in Ireland, hence the perennial complaints.

2. The law will never be rigorously enforced -- no change there then, it being Ireland?

3. Do you think there might be a link between our Irish culture of non-accountability, our Irish culture of lax enforcement and our Irish culture of ramshackle cycle infrastructure?

4. I don't believe we are, or should be, focused on a 6-year-old (actually 5!) cycling on the footpath. There's much more to be considered than that. Here we are in Bike Week, and the image chosen by the Irish Times to illustrate an article about cycle safety pretty much instantly generates negative comment as well as (subtly?) contradicting Dr Simms's supposed message. I simply can't imagine such an image being used in a country where cycling is taken seriously.