Dubliner kills two kids and walks free

Fuinseog

how is it that a Dublin business man who killed two kids aged 5 and two when his car mounted the footpath walks free?
it was on both RTE and TV3 and not once was there any expression of remorse for what he did.

if that had been Irish kids who had been killed there would be uproar.

Arciphel

Can you post a link to the story?

Fuinseog

I thought the story was well known but the media here seems to be suppressing it. there was widespread revulsion when the 5 year old was murdered in a housefire in Roscommon. this business man claimed he did not flee the country but left a few months after and was sentenced in absentina. the irish judicial system is protecting him and he is not required to do any time. there is something rotten about that.




http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0201/1224311047720.html

The Irish Times - Wednesday, February 1, 2012
A MAN appealing his extradition to Hungary to serve a sentence over a car incident which caused the deaths of two children, wants to serve that sentence here, the Supreme Court has been told.

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has however refused Ciarán Tobin’s application, Brian Murray SC said on the opening day of Mr Tobin’s appeal against his extradition.

Monty Burnz

A victory for justice. I'm sure the parents of those children must be really delighted that the guy who recklessly killed them is now at liberty to carry on his life. And I hope he's really proud of himself, and his friends and family know that he's the kind of guy who would kill children and refuse to take his punishment.

Sulla Felix

Where's "here"? If it was on tv3 that's hardly suppressed.

akura

http://crime.ie/20120619/a-dublin-man-has-won-his-supreme-court-battle-against-his-extradition-to-hungary/

Nodin

The Supreme Court has refused a second request from Hungary to extradite a Dublin man to serve a prison sentence over a road traffic incident 12 years ago, in which two young children died.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0619/hungarys-attempt-to-extradite-dublin-man-rejected.html

Monty Burnz

Arciphel wrote: »

Can you post a link to the story?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/tobin-wins-appeal-against-extradition-555883.html

Ciarán Tobin of Offington Drive in Sutton was wanted by the Hungarian authorities to serve a sentence after being convicted of a fatal road accident in which two young children died in April 2000.

Twelve years ago chartered accountant Tobin was speeding in his Volvo outside Budapest when the car mounted the pavement killing a five-year-old boy and a two-year-old girl in a pram.

Jay D

I don't think the media are suppressing it at all. It's certainly not sensationalised like a lot of similar cases if happened here would be.

I do think it's horrible the bastard gets to walk free, although it has been noted that if it were visa versa Hungary has no legislation in place to extradite one of theirs here had it happened in Dublin. What's right? Justice for the victims and their families. What's wrong? Legal loophole bollox.

AnonoBoy

Fuinseog wrote: »

I thought the story was well known but the media here seems to be suppressing it.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0201/1224311047720.html

Yes. It's being suppressed. Which is why you were able to post a link to the story on the Irish Times website and another post on this page has a link to the same story on the RTE website.

frozenbanana

I believe his whole appeal depends on a technicality regarding the first warrant issued after he fled hungary. Looks like it will work too.

Another proof we have a legal rather than a justice system here.

Arciphel

I think if he wasn't a chartered accountant from Sutton but maybe an unemployed bricklayer from somewhere less salubrious, he might have been extradited, but I suppose that's just me being cynical. All are equal before the law, but some are more equal than others.

Fuinseog

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Where's "here"? If it was on tv3 that's hardly suppressed.

where is the revulsion? where is the rage on liveline? Maybe the guy who murdered the child in the fire should have been acquitted.

the Hungarians only gave me a three year sentence which he had no intention of doing. Sutton must be proud of such a son.

Fuinseog

Arciphel wrote: »

I think if he wasn't a chartered accountant from Sutton but maybe an unemployed bricklayer from somewhere less salubrious, he might have been extradited, but I suppose that's just me being cynical. All are equal before the law, but some are more equal than others.

the kids were Hungarian and probably poor so its okay. he should have thrown a few euros at their lifeless corpses and driven on. had he been imprisoned there and then there would have been an outcry in this country.

Fuinseog

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Yes. It's being suppressed. Which is why you were able to post a link to the story on the Irish Times website and another post on this page has a link to the same story on the RTE website.

I believe this whole affair is a scandal and should be widely condemned. it is worthy of our revulsion and should make front page headlines and not just mentioned in passing.

AnonoBoy

Fuinseog wrote: »

I believe this whole affair is a scandal and should be widely condemned. it is worthy of our revulsion and should make front page headlines and not just mentioned in passing.

Fair enough. It's still not suppression though.

christmas2012

he should be banned from driving for life i hope for gods sake if youre going to leave someone like that out at least take the car keys off them whatever about throwing away the key on him in jail,which i think should happen..

Ellis Dee

Fuinseog wrote: »

how is it that a Dublin business man who killed two kids aged 5 and two when his car mounted the footpath walks free?

Do explain to us how you arrive at the conclusion that he has walked free? The case is still ongoing, isn't it? wait until a judgement is given before you reach for your pitchfork.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

hondasam

Fuinseog wrote: »

how is it that a Dublin business man who killed two kids aged 5 and two when his car mounted the footpath walks free?
it was on both RTE and TV3 and not once was there any expression of remorse for what he did.

if that had been Irish kids who had been killed there would be uproar.

He wants to serve his sentence here, how is that walking free?

Fuinseog

Jay D wrote: »

I don't think the media are suppressing it at all. It's certainly not sensationalised like a lot of similar cases if happened here would be.

I do think it's horrible the bastard gets to walk free, although it has been noted that if it were visa versa Hungary has no legislation in place to extradite one of theirs here had it happened in Dublin. What's right? Justice for the victims and their families. What's wrong? Legal loophole bollox.

the legal loophole avoids the human tragedy of the case. The judge was reluctant to extradite him cos he might be away from his kids. the poor man.

both RTE and TV3 seemed very sympathetic to him. if it had been Irish kids murdered by a Hungarian they would have pictures of the kids. why does no Irish reporter go an interview the father of the kids and ask him how he feels?


ON TV3 news they had a sentencing and a murder on before this article and in both cases there was sympathy towards the victims. one woman said that her son had been taken away and she would have to go the rest of er life without her child. in the case of his nibs from Sutton he was apparently the victim

Fuinseog

hondasam wrote: »

He wants to serve his sentence here, how is that walking free?

the Irish court set him free

Fuinseog

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Do explain to us how you arrive at the conclusion that he has walked free? The case is still ongoing, isn't it? wait until a judgement is given before you reach for your pitchfork.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Ireland is not going to extradite him. Nor is he going o receive a custodial sentence here. it has been going on for nearly a decade and the Hungarians will not rest until justice is served.

13 years that guy in Roscommon got for the manslaughter of the 5 year old girl.

ArmaniJeanss

Fuinseog wrote: »

the legal loophole avoids the human tragedy of the case. The judge was reluctant to extradite him cos he might be away from his kids. the poor man.

Did the judges actually say that, or was the judgement purely based on legalaties of the extradition warrant?

Also it appears from the article that he has served at least 3 months (possibly 7 months?) of the sentence in Irish custody already, so he is not quite getting away scot-free.

gurramok

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Do explain to us how you arrive at the conclusion that he has walked free? The case is still ongoing, isn't it? wait until a judgement is given before you reach for your pitchfork.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Here http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0619/hungarys-attempt-to-extradite-dublin-man-rejected.html

WTF, seriously what planet are those 3 judges on?

RTE wrote:

Mr Tobin appealed to the Supreme Court, which ruled this morning by a majority of three judges to two that this second request was an abuse of process and it found that a Hungarian national could not be extradited to Ireland if the situation was reversed.
Mr Tobin had offered to serve his sentence in this country and voluntarily went into custody in November last year. However, the court heard there was no provision under Irish law to allow him to serve his sentence here.
Mr Justice Adrian Hardiman called this a unique and unprecedented case and an appalling tragedy.
He said the case illustrated how a perfectly ordinary person of good character in a moment and without any intentional or malicious act on his part can become a suspect, then a convict, sentenced to three years in a foreign jail.
He said the case was relevant to anyone who travels abroad and especially anyone who drives a car while abroad.
He also referred to the "grossly abnormal period" during which Mr Tobin, who is a father of two children, has been under threat of forcible separation from his family.
The court ordered his release from custody forthwith. Mr Tobin left with his wife, without making any comment.

Fuinseog

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Did the judges actually say that, or was the judgement purely based on legalaties of the extradition warrant?

Also it appears from the article that he has served at least 3 months of the sentence in Irish custody already, so he is not quite getting away scot-free.

my info is taken from RTE news.

ronjo

Fuinseog wrote: »

both RTE and TV3 seemed very sympathetic to him. if it had been Irish kids murdered by a Hungarian they would have pictures of the kids. why does no Irish reporter go an interview the father of the kids and ask him how he feels?

It was hardly murder in fairness. It was tragic and beyond careless alright but not murder.

Fuinseog

gurramok wrote: »

Here http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0619/hungarys-attempt-to-extradite-dublin-man-rejected.html

WTF, seriously what planet are those 3 judges on?

where did he spend his voluntary period of detention, under house arrest perhaps?

hondasam

Fuinseog wrote: »

the Irish court set him free

You should have posted links for us to read the story. The problem is you think he should be extradited to Hungary to serve his sentence?

Show Time

He should be doing hard time out in Hungry but that is the legal system here in action for ya.

Fuinseog

ronjo wrote: »

It was hardly murder in fairness. It was tragic and beyond careless alright but not murder.

the Hungarians did not charge him with murder, but reckless driving, which is why he only received a three year sentence. its reassuring though to know that if I commit a crime within the EU I can hightail it back o Ireland and nothing will happen.

I just watched it again on RTE. it was on at twenty past night. it should have been item no. 1. pressure needs to be put on the government for Chatter to do the right thing. it is not been 'slavish' to the Eu as his lordship stated. its justice.

ResearchWill

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Do explain to us how you arrive at the conclusion that he has walked free? The case is still ongoing, isn't it? wait until a judgement is given before you reach for your pitchfork.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

The SC made its decision today, here is that decision http://www.supremecourt.ie/Judgments.nsf/1b0757edc371032e802572ea0061450e/4ca2ae8b10c86e7480257a22004f3a7b?OpenDocument

From that decision is an account of the ACCIDENT such account was the respondents but it is noted that his account is no challenged.

On Sunday the 9th day of April, 2000, the appellant was driving a Volvo 40 motor car along a public highway in the area mentioned. He had the persons mentioned above as his passengers. The street featured a raised area on which, relevantly to this case, was a bus stop and an area for people waiting for the bus to stand. This area was separated from the street by a kerb.
The car was not the appellant’s personal property but was supplied to him by the Irish public company for which he worked. Like many modern cars it was equipped with a range of electronic indicators intended to indicate malfunctions or items that needed to be adjusted. The vehicle was fully and regularly serviced at the expense of the appellant’s employers. Apart from this, the appellant had twice taken it to the garage complaining that certain indicators including that relating to the anti-lock braking system (ABS), had lit up without apparent reason. He was assured by the experts that this was an electrical fault only and did not indicate any fault in the functioning of the vehicle. It was also a feature of the vehicle, according to the appellant’s uncontradicted evidence, that airbags was programmed to deploy in the event of an impact at a speed above 50 kilometres per hour, or about 30 miles per hour.
On Sunday the 9th of April, 2000, the appellant was involved in a traffic accident at the location mentioned above which, very tragically, involved the deaths of two people, children who were waiting in the vicinity of the bus stop mentioned above. The devastation caused by this tragedy cannot be understated the appellant has made no attempt to do so. But he denies that there was any criminal act or omission on his part, either in the driving of the car or in its maintenance, which caused the accident.
The appellant says that he was driving along the public highway at a speed of about 70 kilometres per hour, or about 42 miles per hour. The husband of the visiting couple was sitting beside him in the front passenger seat; their two wives and the Tobins nine month old child were sitting in the back. Mrs. Tobin, as has been mentioned, was pregnant at the time. As he drove, a car pulled out of a side street and on to the major thoroughfare along which the Tobins were driving. He thought it wise, as that car came closely in front of him, to pull into the only other available lane, that nearest the right hand kerb. This involved a movement to the right. After executing this movement, Mr. Tobin attempted to straighten up the car so that it could proceed in the normal fashion in the right hand lane. But the vehicle was suddenly and entirely unresponsive to efforts to straighten it up on the road or to apply the brakes. In an instant - motor accidents, notoriously, happen in a much shorter period of time than it takes to describe them - his car had mounted the kerb on the raised area and struck the two children standing there, with the appalling consequences already set out.


I for one can admit that the above could have happened to me, I don't think I deserve to do any time for such an accident.

Latchy

Fuinseog wrote: »

the Hungarians did not charge him with murder, but reckless driving, which is why he only received a three year sentence. its reassuring though to know that if I commit a crime within the EU I can hightail it back o Ireland and nothing will happen.

We need to nip that in the bud .

Meauldsegosha

Fuinseog wrote: »

the Irish court set him free

An Irish court cannot try and convict him for a crime committed in another jurisdiction. The Irish courts have interpreted the laws in relation to extradition which the case at hand now.

What he did was disgusting, he should be a man and go back to Hungary and take his punishment.

ronjo

Fuinseog wrote: »

the Hungarians did not charge him with murder, but reckless driving, which is why he only received a three year sentence. its reassuring though to know that if I commit a crime within the EU I can hightail it back o Ireland and nothing will happen.

I know they didnt but YOU brought the murder comparison in above

usernamegoes

It was reported that it was important under the previous extradition treaty that he didn't flea Hungry; I'm interested to know how he left. Was he arrested there and allowed to leave Hungry or what?

mike65

I suppose there is always the chance of Car-ma. ("After Hours Standard" approved harsh comment)

Mr Justice Adrian Hardiman called this a unique and unprecedented case and an appalling tragedy.
He said the case illustrated how a perfectly ordinary person of good character in a moment and without any intentional or malicious act on his part can become a suspect, then a convict, sentenced to three years in a foreign jail.
He said the case was relevant to anyone who travels abroad and especially anyone who drives a car while abroad.
He also referred to the "grossly abnormal period" during which Mr Tobin, who is a father of two children, has been under threat of forcible separation from his family.

Thats a pretty remarkable appraisal of the case. You'd think Mr Tobin had been in car park tip rather than committing death by dangerous driving.

---

As he drove, a car pulled out of a side street and on to the major thoroughfare along which the Tobins were driving. He thought it wise, as that car came closely in front of him, to pull into the only other available lane, that nearest the right hand kerb. This involved a movement to the right. After executing this movement, Mr. Tobin attempted to straighten up the car so that it could proceed in the normal fashion in the right hand lane. But the vehicle was suddenly and entirely unresponsive to efforts to straighten it up on the road or to apply the brakes

edit just seen the above, the supplier of the car clearly should have been questioned and an investigation taken place from the mechanical angle. Was it?

Fuinseog

hondasam wrote: »

You should have posted links for us to read the story. The problem is you think he should be extradited to Hungary to serve his sentence?

yes I do.

Fuinseog

mike65 wrote: »

I suppose there is always the chance of Car-ma. ("After Hours Standard" approved harsh comment)



Thats a pretty remarkable appraisal of the case. You'd think Mr Tobin had been in car park tip rather than committing death by dangerous driving.

he was doing 50 miles (80km) an hour. the report did not say whether or not he was breaking the speed limit. the report never said if he ever expressed remorse for killing two kids.

hondasam

Fuinseog wrote: »

yes I do.

Why are you so outraged about it?

After reading the link researchwill posted it was a terrible accident and he did not flee the country. Why can't he serve the sentence here?

ResearchWill

usernamegoes wrote: »

It was reported that it was important under the previous extradition treaty that he didn't flea Hungry; I'm interested to know how he left. Was he arrested there and allowed to leave Hungry or what?

I think it's all in the decision I published, but in short, the accident happened, he and the other passengers went to police station next day to give statements, he worked away in hungry, then his job moved him home he moved home. Then some time later hungry decided to prosecute, and did so with out him. The Irish courts have defined fleeing as leaving with the intention of avoiding sentence, he did not do that.

ronjo

Fuinseog wrote: »

he was doing 50 miles (80km) an hour. the report did not say whether or not he was breaking the speed limit. the report never said if he ever expressed remorse for killing two kids.

Christ on a bike.. Do you honestly think that anyone could not have remorse for killing to kids like that?? honestly?

Fuinseog

usernamegoes wrote: »

It was reported that it was important under the previous extradition treaty that he didn't flea Hungry; I'm interested to know how he left. Was he arrested there and allowed to leave Hungry or what?

he left before the trial a few months after the killing. the Hungarians were too trusting. when you kill someone with reckless driving you are not usually placed on remand, but summoned to appear in court.
he was conveniently transferred home before the trial.

I presume he is still driving around the streets of Dublin.

gurramok

hondasam wrote: »

Why can't he serve the sentence here?

Why should he be allowed to? The Hungarians judged that he was guilty of a road traffic crime hence he should serve the sentence there.

ResearchWill

gurramok wrote: »

Why should he be allowed to? The Hungarians judged that he was guilty of a road traffic crime hence he should serve the sentence there.

No he should nt, if you read the decision of the SC you would see that the trial in Hungary was a travesty, and it was nothing more than a accident.

gurramok

ResearchWill wrote: »

No he should nt, if you read the decision of the SC you would see that the trial in Hungary was a travesty, and it was nothing more than a accident.

So you trust the word of the Irish judiciary(a majority3-2) over the Hungarian judiciary?

Fuinseog

ronjo wrote: »

Christ on a bike.. Do you honestly think that anyone could not have remorse for killing to kids like that?? honestly?

he could have read out a statement of remorse or even issued one through a lawyer but he did not. the judge showed him more sympathy than the Hungarian parent. Hungary is depicted as a third world country where he could not possibly atone for his crime.

this is an injustice. it caused a few ripples about a year ago and was forgotten about then. this guy symbolises the rich paddy of the Celtic tiger era who went abroad and flaunted their money, people like him believe they can do as they please in a country they look upon as inferior. in this case they can and get away with it.

i have several Hungarian friends and have visited the country. things like this make you ashamed to be Irish.

Fuinseog

ResearchWill wrote: »

No he should nt, if you read the decision of the SC you would see that the trial in Hungary was a travesty, and it was nothing more than a accident.

how was the trail a travesty. you just cannot get a fair hearing from johnny foreigner? its a civilised country.

ResearchWill

gurramok wrote: »

So you trust the word of the Irish judiciary(a majority3-2) over the Hungarian judiciary?

The decision of the SC was on a very narrow interpretation of the relevant section of the EAW act as amended by the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 2009, Harriman was the only one with balls to say what really happened.

In fact below is the relevant passage of the Act,

10.— Where a judicial authority in an issuing state duly issues a European arrest warrant in respect of a person— (a) against whom that state intends to bring proceedings for the offence to which the European arrest warrant relates, or (b) on whom a sentence of imprisonment or detention has been imposed and who fled from the issuing state before he or she— (i) commenced serving that sentence, or (ii) completed serving that sentence, that person shall, subject to and in accordance with the provisions of this Act and the Framework Decision be arrested and surrenderedto the issuing state.

10.— Where a judicial authority in an issuing state duly issues a European arrest warrant in respect of a person— (a) against whom that state intends to bring proceedings for an offence to which the European arrest warrant relates, (b) who is the subject of proceedings in that state for an offence to which the European arrest warrant relates, (c) who has been convicted of, but not yet sentenced in respect of, an offence in that state to which the European arrest warrant relates, or (d) on whom a sentence of imprisonment or detention has been imposed in that state in respect of an offence to which the European arrest warrant relates, and who fled from the issuing state before he or she— (i) commenced serving that sentence, or (ii) completed serving that sentence, that person shall, subject to and in accordance with the provisions of this Act and the Framework Decision, be arrested and surrendered to the issuing state.''

The first section was in the original act, the second section 10 was a 2005 amendment and in 2010 as well as other amendments the word fled was removed.

The SC decided in the original case that he had not fled, so he could not be sent back, then the legislator changed the law and the second EAW was issued, then the court was deciding could the amendment have retrospective effect so to speak. Despite previously saying it could not 2 members of the court said it could.

hondasam

Fuinseog wrote: »

this is an injustice. it caused a few ripples about a year ago and was forgotten about then. this guy symbolises the rich paddy of the Celtic tiger era who went abroad and flaunted their money, people like him believe they can do as they please in a country they look upon as inferior. in this case they can and get away with it.

i have several Hungarian friends and have visited the country. things like this make you ashamed to be Irish.

I cannot imagine the man is happy to have killed two innocent children but it was an accident.

ResearchWill

Fuinseog wrote: »

how was the trail a travesty. you just cannot get a fair hearing from johnny foreigner? its a civilised country.

1 the accused was not there, 2 the court made a decision in contradiction of the only evidence before it. In my opinion that's enough to make me think the conviction would be unsafe.

usernamegoes

Fuinseog wrote: »

he left before the trial a few months after the killing. the Hungarians were too trusting. when you kill someone with reckless driving you are not usually placed on remand, but summoned to appear in court.
he was conveniently transferred home before the trial.

I presume he is still driving around the streets of Dublin.

According to the SC judgment, it is admitted by the Hungry that he didn't flea. Un