kenpo 5.0 ?

scottie pippen

I heard that Kenpo Karate has been updated, and now has a ground game.
& its ground game has been influenced by BJJ, but now like MMA

Will this be adopted by kenpo clubs in Ireland?

Doug Cartel

I'm pretty sure kenpo (just like karate, jujutsu and kung fu) is a term that refers to a collection of martial arts. Hawaiian Kenpo - Chuck Lidell's style - has had a ground game for a while now, and I think good subset of the clubs in that style train in a very MMA like manner.

I think Ed Parker Kenpo Karate is the most common from of kenpo taught here. If that is the one that has been changed then I guess there is a chance that the classes here will change. Usually when these kinds of things happen your choice as an instructor is to get with the program or break off to form your own organisation.

scottie pippen

Out of curiosity - If a club has to go with the new curriculum, how would the instructors themselves be brought up to speed on a new set of techniques?

I assume they would grade & be proficient, before they can teach the new skill set?

Doug Cartel

From what I've seen it usually just means a weekend long seminar, pay your fee, and get your cert.

That's usually for reasonably small changes or additions to a curriculum. I have no idea how you could change a style whole-cloth and get the instructors legitimately qualified.

scottie pippen

Doug Cartel wrote: »

From what I've seen it usually just means a weekend long seminar, pay your fee, and get your cert.

That's usually for reasonably small changes or additions to a curriculum. I have no idea how you could change a style whole-cloth and get the instructors legitimately qualified.

That’s what I was thinking - unless - independently the instructors have cross attained, and already have some knowledge of the skill set being introduced, which is not unreasonable to imagine. But I can’t see somebody who has spent a lifetime striking suddenly picking up grappling in a weekend

SBG Ireland

i've been teaching BJJ to TKD and Kempo clubs for +10yrs and here is a very common reaction

• they initially add BJJ
• after a while they enjoy doing that so much, especially the training methods so they add boxing and maybe MT techniques to their stand up
• after another while they add some judo/wrestling to their clinch
• they enjoy this type of training so much their time for kata/static techniques becomes less and less
• now depending on the head guys preference they drift towards RBSD or MMA
• they are no longer TKD/Kempo/JJJ
• process can take anywhere from 1-4yrs depending on their attachment to previous training methods/certs they've earned
• of course many have also tried it but continued with their existing art/training methods and that's all good too

an interesting question might be at what stage is it no longer 'kempo'?

i can think of at least 7-8 clubs of the top of my head this exact process has happened, as they all post here they can decide if they want to say how it was for them.

on point someone just sent me this video this morning. its sort of an example of what i'm talking about. its a kempo bb (i presume kempo, might be wrong) teaching a typical BJJ sequence (skip to 5:30). now she's confused a technique that's supposed to be used from the guard with a mount escape but the first process of beginning to add BJJ is there. of course the more important aspect of adding in the typical BJJ training method of trying that against a resisting opponent will be the more important part, and will also show why you dont try that sequence from that position.

Clive

To be honest, most of the kenpo groundwork I've seen has been real square peg in round hole stuff - five swords off your back etc.

If that's the path they're going down, then it won't require too much retraining, just different applications of kenpo "techniques".

Doug Cartel

To be honest, your original post is so vague that I suspect you might just have gotten the wrong end of the stick.

I'd say it's unlikely that one of the striking and kata based kenpo styles has suddenly decided to suddenly change completely. There are kenpo styles that have grappling, and there are styles that have had an emphasis on sparring instead of kata since at least the early 90s (probably as a result of the process SBG Ireland described.) So what you are hearing about is probably either one of MMA like styles gaining popularity, or a style that was already heading that way making a few final changes to the way they do things.

Dyr

Will we see more 'taches in grappling circles as a result of this?

Doug Cartel

Doug Cartel wrote: »

I'd say it's unlikely that one of the striking and kata based kenpo styles has suddenly decided to suddenly change completely.

I think I'm going to have to correct myself here. I think it's unlikely, but it's still entirely possible. Fro example a few years ago the American Taekwondo Association started to teach/certify in MMA. I have no idea how it worked out, but the ATA are generally considered to be more interested in making money than teaching properly, so I can't imagine it's a quality program.

OLDMAN1

There is a article in this months irish fighter on it. it was created by Jeff speakman, no mention of bjj from what i can see.

Doug Cartel

Ah, ok this makes more sense now. "Kenpo 5.0" is the name of the style - I thought it was just a clever thread title.

I guess then that whether or not it becomes available over here is going to entirely depend on how good this guy is at expanding his organisation. He's a former movie-star so that might help, and he seems to have one representative in the UK already. It's possible one of his schools may open up over here.

Pride Fighter

Kenpo 5.0 is just Jeff Speakman's way of teaching kenpo. Has no ground game in it, it is just the orthodox kenpo techniques thought his way.

As for kenpo having ground techniques, there are some strands that do, but in the main, it does not.

OLDMAN1

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Ah, ok this makes more sense now. "Kenpo 5.0" is the name of the style - I thought it was just a clever thread title.

I guess then that whether or not it becomes available over here is going to entirely depend on how good this guy is at expanding his organisation. He's a former movie-star so that might help, and he seems to have one representative in the UK already. It's possible one of his schools may open up over here.

It seems to be a new syllabus more than a style, there are pics with barney Coleman,Shay Paget and Maurice Mahon. It also said that they are trying to move away from the "strike and stop" method of fighting

Pride Fighter

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

It seems to be a new syllabus more than a style, there are pics with barney Coleman,Shay Paget and Maurice Mahon. It also said that they are trying to move away from the "strike and stop" method of fighting

Got any links to it? I'm a black belt in kenpo and always interested to look at various developments in it.

OLDMAN1

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Kenpo 5.0 is just Jeff Speakman's way of teaching kenpo. Has no ground game in it, it is just the orthodox kenpo techniques thought his way.

As for kenpo having ground techniques, there are some strands that do, but in the main, it does not.

The article states: the result seems to be a syllabus which includes a new spate of ground based techniques, befor which there were none

OLDMAN1

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Got any links to it? I'm a black belt in kenpo and always interested to look at various developments in it.

Sorry no links, just the article in the Irish fighter.

scottie pippen

had a look on speakmens site

https://www.jeffspeakman.com/

there is a grappling video towards the end of the page

looking at the video without sound, I'm have no training in BJJ but it looks to me that like a rear naked choke - 2min 8 seconds in.

also from his site

What Is Kenpo 5.0?

American Kenpo version 5.0 is the hybrid of the last generation version of American Kenpo taught directly from Senior Grand Master Ed Parker to Jeff Speakman and ground fighting brought into the equation by several of Mr. Speakman’s students training and experiences as well as Mr. Speakman’s continued studies of Brazilian Ju Jitsu from his instructor Mr. Todd Nathanson. Approximately 30 new techniques have been created replacing dated or in-congruent techniques within the existing system. In addition another 30 techniques have been altered in varying degrees to accommodate the same thinking.

so it seems that there is a bjj influence as well as other grappling style

Interesting stuff

Spideog Rua

Seems like a bastardisation of BJJ rules except for reversal being awared two points and three points for a tapout, but in this system a tapout doesnt end the match.

slammer187

Will this not just turn into grappling if they decide to add the clinch and throws to the system which from a self-defense point of view will kind of nullify the striking aspect of the art? Or will these Kenpo schools be just become competitive MMA schools to still give purpose to focusing on strikes combined with grappling?

Darren Mahony

Kenpo 5.0 is the designation that Jeff Speakman now gives to his system of Kenpo Karate. Mr.Speakman learned his Kenpo from Ed Parker and the system of Kenpo he would have taught prior to his revision if you like to put it that would way would have been Kenpo 4.0 and that is the system I learn and teach although it is only the 5.0 guys that use that designation (We just call what we do Kenpo Karate). He has called it 5.0 because he says this is the 5th revision or imaganing of Ed Parkers Kenpo. I knew Mr Speakman well, was in his organistion, the AKKS and tested for my Black Belt under him. I am no longer associated with Mr Speakman and the AKKS and although there was a good number of schools in Ireland in the AKKS at one time to the best of my knowledge there are none now.
I have done a few classes in the 5.0 system and have a small bit of BJJ and as far as I can tell what he has done is formulated new self defence techniques for the syllabus and modified other existing ones to incorporate BJJ from what he is learning himself and from what some of his top black belts are learning. A few of his top guys while still learning Kenpo from him are also studying BJJ and MAA.
They have 3 phases in the new techniques, 1)you are attacked and the guy tries to take you to the ground and you stop it then and there. 2)The guy is sucessful in taking you down but you counter,finish it on the ground or do what is nessecery to regain your feet and 3 is where you take your attacker to the ground and go from there.
As I said I have only a little training in 5.0 Kenpo and BJJ so the line is blurred for me and as for have they inserted pure BJJ into their Kenpo or a modified version I can't say.
Ed Parker is famous for saying that his biggest fear after he has gone would be that someone traditionalises his Kenpo so is Mr Speakman doing right by his teacher Ed Parker, some will say yes, others no. In my opinion I respect what he is trying to do and applaud his efforts (many people don't realised that when Kenpo first came about it was called Kenpo JuJitsu and over the years the JuJitsu aspect got lost), so maybe in a roundabout kind of way he is bringing Kenpo back to it's roots.
The other big question as far as Kenpo people are concerned is "Did he go about it the right way?" and in answer to that I would say no but that is a whole other matter.
Anyway, I'm rambling so sorry about the long post but I hope this helped clear it up a bit for some people.

Darren.

Doug Cartel

Is there a big difference in the way kenpo 5.0 is taught? (eg the teaching methods, not the techniques themselves.)

SBG Ireland

when i started into mma/bjj i did a little sport jiu jitsu and at competitions you have 'randori' divisions (fighting) and then demo divisions (performing techniques/kata)
i can see this being very similar
and i'll predict that those who spend most of their time training bjj/grappling/kicboxing will dominate the 'fighting' divisions and those who are more interested in the 'performance' side of martial arts ie repeating techniques against static opponents or kata will dominate those divisions.

on an unrelated point i find a few strange things about the rules
1- you can kick to the groin...but no punches to the face? odd.
2- a 'self defense' orientated MA but a choke tap doesnt 'end the fight'? if that was 'the street' the attacker would be incapacitated. so why bother continuing?
but each to their own

Darren Mahony

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Is there a big difference in the way kenpo 5.0 is taught? (eg the teaching methods, not the techniques themselves.)

Hi Doug,
I've only done a couple of seminars here and there while abroad so I'm not sure if there is any difference in the way they teach the stuff on a day to day basis but in the seminars I attended anyway there was no real difference in the actual way they taught the techniques.
Darren.

Doug Cartel

Darren Mahony wrote: »

Hi Doug,
I've only done a couple of seminars here and there while abroad so I'm not sure if there is any difference in the way they teach the stuff on a day to day basis but in the seminars I attended anyway there was no real difference in the actual way they taught the techniques.
Darren.

For me, I think the main difference between BJJ (as well as the other combat-sport style martial arts) and the more traditional styles really comes down to the way they are taught.

I have no experience with kenpo, but from what I've seen it has a lot of training people to respond to specific situations with specific sequences of actions. He does this, so I do this and this, then that. I think combat sports put more emphasis on adaptation and improvisation from an early stage.

If you just add in a bunch of guard sweeps and arm-bars without shifting the training emphasis to being less prescriptive and more adaptive, I don't think you'd really do much to capture the success of BJJ. (Success both in fighting ability, and in attracting/keeping students.) It kind of seems like a cargo cult approach to martial arts.

Darren Mahony

Unfortunately that is the case with a lot of "tradational" styles but not us all. In our system of Kenpo we use what we call the "ideal phase" to begin the learning process,where you are met with a certain attack and you train yourself to meet that attack with a certain reaction. This however should only be a starting point, giving the student a point of reference and building the muscle memory to have a responce and building the personal arsenal.
A good teacher will move move the student out of this primitive stage of learning when they are ready to progress and onto the mechanical stage where they will build up a greater knowlegde and understanding of how it all works. This can be called the "what if" phase and here you do learn to be more adaptive and "live".
You then get into the spontaneous stage where there is no prescribed reactions or movements and no similar situation will result in the same action.
There are the traditionilists out there who are dogged with the old "he does this and you do that formula" of teaching and as I said we do use that to begin with and you gotta start somewhere but I for one progress on from that into more live and less preset training for my students.

Darren

Kenpo kid

Kenpo is a evolving system since day one.5.0 is the next step.the colemans/paget are the people who are adapting it to suit the present day.it couldn't be in better hands.the true masters off the art

Esel

Kenpo kid wrote: »

the true masters off the art

Many a word spoken in jest...

_oveless_

A friend of mine who does karate told me there was a kempo mma competiton recently in loughlinstown, is this the same kind of thing?

Dave 101

_oveless_ wrote: »

A friend of mine who does karate told me there was a kempo mma competiton recently in loughlinstown, is this the same kind of thing?

mma league was on there few weeks back

Kenpo kid

Things had to change. I love ed Parkers system but your fighting people on the streets who think there's nothing like mma etc so it's good knowing how to defend ones self in any situation....

Mellor

_oveless_ wrote: »

A friend of mine who does karate told me there was a kempo mma competiton recently in loughlinstown, is this the same kind of thing?

Is "kenpo mma" a bit if an oxymoron?

_oveless_

Mellor wrote: »

Is "kenpo mma" a but if an oxymoron?

I dunno, but he called it "that m & a stuff", so that tells you what he knows about it.