Is the rear ender always to blame?

cormie

I was involved in a minor collision on Saturday morning Thankfully no injuries and the other driver was a pleasure to deal with too. The Full story with media is here but I'm just wondering what's the situation in such a case where the driver pulls out from a side-road too soon? Is it always the blame of the driver behind when it's a front to back bumper collision?

I'm so pissed off I had the mishap with the camera as it might have helped prove I wasn't fully responsible but I think without it, I'm pretty much defenceless!

Neither of us thought to call the Garda, as there were no injuries and all the witnesses were long gone by the time we got over the shock. I haven't phoned the insurance company either as I'm going to get a quote for the repair first and see if it would make more sense not to go through insurance.

To the techies: Is there any chance to recover a video files from an SD card that's already been overwritten with other video. Would even the most advanced recovery tool be able?

To the law minded: Would there be any point in trying to prove myself not fully liable?

To the motor heads: Any stab at a guess of the repair price on such damage, the car is 1 month old and of course, guess the car!

To the high horses: I was in a little bit of shock so may not have done everything as I should. Forgive me

Any feedback appreciated!

Nissan doctor

In general yes due to you having to leave enough clearance etc.

But there have been cases, one involving a Dublin bus a while back that I read somewhere(here maybe), where the person in front was deemed to have braked hard for no reason and was ruled responsible for the accident.

Depending on the exact situation, your collision would be considered as a car pulling out in front of you, rather then a normal rear ending I would think.

colm_mcm

Did they suddenly stop or what?

cormie

They didn't suddenly stop at all, they pulled out and pulled out extremely slowly and barely accelerated off at all, although they didn't really have time anyway. I honestly believe they shouldn't have pulled out, but don't think I'll be able to prove it.

In the case of Dublin bus, I'm guessing they had a camera, or witnesses on the bus, to help their case. I have nothing

Guy:Incognito

The person behind being at fault sort of assumes a situation where you have both been travelling in the same direction. If she pulled out in front of you then its her fault. The fact she managed to turn enough that you hit the back of her wont change that imo. The only thing I can see that could share some blame is if you were going very fast.

IMO if someone pulls out in to a gap that causes a driver on the road to brake, the gap wasnt big enough.

dhog4n

The rules of the road are quite clear about leaving space to stop safely. The other driver pulling out without waiting for a safe opportunity is also covered so it would come down to a balance of responsibility, eg: were you going too fast vs did he pull out safely.

From what you're describing, it sounds like the other car is at fault. They pulled out in front of you, meaning that this is not the standard rear ending scenario where one car brakes and the one behind hasn't left enough space.

It would of course be much easier to prove that that's what happened if you had collided with the side rather than the back of the car.

I think the moral of the story here is to always remember to get witness details at the scene, although that's easier said than done when you take the shock/fright of having an accident into account.

Is there any CCTV coverage of the area? Bit of a long shot but might be worth looking into.

allthedoyles

You need to report it to your insurance regardless of whether you are going to pay yourself or not .

Because the other driver was a pleasure to deal with - Don't take that at face value .

Never admit responsibility regardless of whether you believe you were wrong or not .

I rear-ended a Nissan Micra in 2008 and there was no visible damage done . - yet it cost €1,200 for labour and €400 parts to fix the car .
The Insurance Company were unable to reduce the bill .

knifey_spoonie

I would imagine you would be looking at around €600-700

It should breakdown similar to this

Bumper €250
Bumper Bar €75
RH Bumper Bar Bracket € 50

Paint & Sundries €75-100

Labour €200-250

CiniO

dhog4n wrote: »

The rules of the road are quite clear about leaving space to stop safely.

ROTR tell us about necessary distance to keep from car in front of you.
And they tell us to travel at speed allowing to stop on distance of road which can be seen to be clear.
But how can you expect driver to leave space to stop safely in front of obstruction which was not there.
If car pulls out from minor road / hard shoulder / gate / etc. then he has to give way to traffic already traveling on the main road.

The other driver pulling out without waiting for a safe opportunity is also covered so it would come down to a balance of responsibility, eg: were you going too fast vs did he pull out safely.

Assuming OP was traveling within speed limit and suddenly car pulled out from the side in front of him forcing OP to do emergency braking and eventually crashing, I can't see any fault on the OP's side.

blindside88

cormie wrote: »

They didn't suddenly stop at all, they pulled out and pulled out extremely slowly and barely accelerated off at all, although they didn't really have time anyway. I honestly believe they shouldn't have pulled out, but don't think I'll be able to prove it.

In the case of Dublin bus, I'm guessing they had a camera, or witnesses on the bus, to help their case. I have nothing

Similar happen to me about 4 years ago, a car pulled out of a filling station infront of me, I hit her in the gateway of the filling station, my insurance refused to fight the case

cormie

cormie wrote: »

.............

Any feedback appreciated!

Sorry to hear of your incident, I had a small tip once, I was surprisingly shaken after it.

Anyway.................

" I was overtaking a cyclist and further up the road a woman had her car door open so I stayed towards the centre of the road for a fluid overtake. At the same time, a driver came out from a side road on the left hand side and I jammed on the brakes but slid into their bumper with a thud."

cormie wrote: »

They didn't suddenly stop at all, they pulled out and pulled out extremely slowly and barely accelerated off at all..............

My view would be that you were focusing on the other hazards (cyclist and car with door open) and didn't notice the Merc pulling out until it was too late. If it was going as slow as you say it was there should have been enough time for you to stop considering the Merc had time to complete the turn and straighten up, that looks like a 50kph zone to me so as you didn't have time to stop either you reacted quite late or you were going a tad over the limit imo.

Probably not what you want to hear admittedly.

Nissan doctor

knifey_spoonie wrote: »

I would imagine you would be looking at around €600-700

It should breakdown similar to this

Bumper €250
Bumper Bar €75
RH Bumper Bar Bracket € 50

Paint & Sundries €75-100

Labour €200-250

Are they the parts prices from Toyota for a 2012 Avensis?

Discodog

I was prosecuted by the Police in the UK for rear ending a car on a roundabout. In court the other driver inadvertently admitted that he indicated left but turned right so there was no way of avoiding him. The Judge dismissed the case.

What happened to you nearly happens to me at least three times a day. People pull out of side turnings & simply don't accelerate - they have no concept of matching their speed to the flow of the traffic. I have to brake & then, once I have virtually stopped, the other car speeds up.

Insurance companies have an, only known to them, system of allocating blame. All you can do is tell the truth.

.. thought that was a C class

knifey_spoonie

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Are they the parts prices from Toyota for a 2012 Avensis?

Educated guess, won't be to far out id imagine

ValerieR

Sorry to read about your incident. IMO, regardless of the fact the car pulled out in front of you, at low speed, you hit its rear bumper. The insurances are probably going to decide that you are the responsible party.
I was involved in a crash recently and was told by my insurance that you can stop any proceedings at any point in the claiming process if you think it's better for you not to proceed through the insurances.
In any case, whether you claim through your insurance or not, you should inform them.

hondasam

I thought once you sign your policy your insurance company act on your behalf and are not obliged to tell you if someone claims against you.


OP hard luck but you should have been able to stop or avoid the car which pulled out. IMO it should be 50/50 responsibility in some cases.

hondasam

hondasam wrote: »

I thought once you sign your policy your insurance company act on your behalf and are not obliged to tell you if someone claims against you................

.... that'd make fraudulent claims fairly easy.

hondasam

RoverJames wrote: »

.... that'd make fraudulent claims fairly easy.

Insurance companies do not tell you if they settle a case against you or if they pay out on your policy.
You will be aware of the claim but they are not obliged to let you defend it.

Gary ITR

RoverJames wrote: »

.... that'd make fraudulent claims fairly easy.

Insurance companies state in the policy docs that you are never to admit liability. Technically the driver is not qualified to make that call

hondasam

hondasam wrote: »

I thought once you sign your policy your insurance company act on your behalf and are not obliged to tell you if someone claims against you. .............

hondasam wrote: »

Insurance companies do not tell you if they settle a case against you or if they pay out on your policy.
You will be aware of the claim but they are not obliged to let you defend it.

Presumably it's your insurance company who makes you aware of the claim?
I would be fairly sure they are very much obliged to notify you if someone claims against you.

Gary ITR wrote: »

Insurance companies state in the policy docs that you are never to admit liability. Technically the driver is not qualified to make that call

That has nothing whatsoever to do with the piece you quoted.

Gary ITR

RoverJames wrote: »

That has nothing whatsoever to do with the piece you quoted.

Well I'll just go back to sleep then

hondasam

RoverJames wrote: »

Presumably it's your insurance company who makes you aware of the claim?
I would be fairly sure they are very much obliged to notify you if someone claims against you.

No because you would have reported the accident yourself to your insurance company. I'm sure once you sign you are allowing them to act as they seem fit.
The first you might know of a claim is when you get your renewal.

.... sweet Jesus

hondasam

RoverJames wrote: »

.... sweet Jesus

Does that mean you disagree?

Yawns

hondasam wrote: »

The first you might know of a claim is when you get your renewal.

That's not the normal run of the mill way of doing it. Insurance company will send a letter stating that a claim has been opened against the policy. They most likely won't bother to inform you if they have admitted liability on your behalf, settled or what amount was claimed for. But they will inform that someone is claiming and then get your version of events.

hondasam

Yawns wrote: »

That's not the normal run of the mill way of doing it. Insurance company will send a letter stating that a claim has been opened against the policy. They most likely won't bother to inform you if they have admitted liability on your behalf, settled or what amount was claimed for. But they will inform that someone is claiming and then get your version of events.

That is what I meant, you might not be aware they paid on your policy until you get your renewal.

Yawns

Ya sorry I had a re-read thru and realised u had said the same thing. Time for bed me thinks

Jimbob 83

ValerieR wrote: »

Sorry to read about your incident. IMO, regardless of the fact the car pulled out in front of you, at low speed, you hit its rear bumper. The insurances are probably going to decide that you are the responsible party.
I was involved in a crash recently and was told by my insurance that you can stop any proceedings at any point in the claiming process if you think it's better for you not to proceed through the insurances.
In any case, whether you claim through your insurance or not, you should inform them.

Ridiculous statement imo, if it was the case anyone could just plough into traffic when joining a major road from a minor and know they held no liability :pac:

Mr Keek

If you rear end some one it usually your fault as far as the insurance co are concerned. The person in front of you would have to admit liability for you to be in the cleared.

If someone joins a primary road from a secondary road, eg(turning onto a main road) and causes a collision, it is again usually a closed book with them being at fault as far as the insurance co is concerned.

If you claim, it'll more than likely be a 50/50 claim with each insurer covering their own customers damages. Ya would both claim off you own policies for you own damages.


***Edit

Log the claim with you insurance company, it's part of the T&C's. You don't have to proceed with the claim. You can close it off when everything settles down again. At least have the option to claim if needs be...., or if the other person turn out be muppet about it, you won't be backed into a corner without options.

rex-x

I always wondered what happened in a situation where two cars are travelling with safe distance between them at 60 mph but the front one had massively better brakes.
For instance:



this is my 1100kg peugeot featuring 305mm 4 pot brembos and could easily stop from 60 mph in the amount of time it would take someone behind to react if not focused on my lights!, by comparison to a road legal maybe 95 corolla with its milk bottle tops? They did everything correctly but were simply outbraked?

cormie

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

Certainly glad to see it looks like it's in my favour, at least for a 50/50. My mechanic said to get my van back to good would be €100 for parts and labour so I definitely won't be claiming through insurance for that!

Just some additional information I forgot to mention is the fact that it was raining and the road was wet, this makes stopping distance pretty much twice as long. Also, I'm not sure if it makes a difference or will make things more complicated insurance wise, but it was a company car of a sales rep and my insurance is a fleet policy.

So what should be the procedure from here on?

Ring insurance company, log the accident? Or ring the other driver first and say that I don't believe I'm fully responsible? What if they disagree, what happens then, or what if they agree that it's 50/50, what happens then?

Also, in a 50/50 case, is it always just a case of paying for the damage to your own vehicle and not splitting the total bill I guess? As in, 100eur will fix my vehicle but the other car needs much more, so I'd end up paying half their bill and half mine? I assume not

Do the Gardai need to be informed at all?

Any advice on what steps should be taken and which to take first would be great! Also, how long do these things usually take to be over and done with?

JimsAlterEgo

cormie wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

Certainly glad to see it looks like it's in my favour, at least for a 50/50. My mechanic said to get my van back to good would be €100 for parts and labour so I definitely won't be claiming through insurance for that!

Just some additional information I forgot to mention is the fact that it was raining and the road was wet, this makes stopping distance pretty much twice as long. Also, I'm not sure if it makes a difference or will make things more complicated insurance wise, but it was a company car of a sales rep and my insurance is a fleet policy.

So what should be the procedure from here on?

Ring insurance company, log the accident? Or ring the other driver first and say that I don't believe I'm fully responsible? What if they disagree, what happens then, or what if they agree that it's 50/50, what happens then?

Also, in a 50/50 case, is it always just a case of paying for the damage to your own vehicle and not splitting the total bill I guess? As in, 100eur will fix my vehicle but the other car needs much more, so I'd end up paying half their bill and half mine? I assume not

Do the Gardai need to be informed at all?

Any advice on what steps should be taken and which to take first would be great! Also, how long do these things usually take to be over and done with?

Report it to your insurance company as someone pulling out in front of you, it sounds like they shouldn't have pulled out, just because they managed to straighten up doesn't mean should be considered part of regular moving traffic. I wouldn't even mention hitting them from the rear.
You may be partly at fault as it could be argued that you should have anticipated them making the manoeuvre and slowed enough to not hit them.

JimsAlterEgo

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

Report it to your insurance company as someone pulling out in front of you, it sounds like they shouldn't have pulled out, just because they managed to straighten up doesn't mean should be considered part of regular moving traffic. I wouldn't even mention hitting them from the rear.
You may be partly at fault as it could be argued that you should have anticipated them making the manoeuvre and slowed enough to not hit them.

..... they'll ascertain he hit the other party from the rear very quickly, why not mention it?

hondasam

hondasam wrote: »

Does that mean you disagree?

I disagree with your initial post which is why I commented on how that would facilitate fraudulent claims as you wouldn't know if someone had put a claim in against you, you since have clarified what you were on about.

cormie

Thanks again for the replies. I'm assuming if I speak to the driver first (I haven't phoned anyone yet this morning) and say I believe I'm not fully at fault and suggest they sort out their own repairs, they will probably disagree. So assuming they disagree and aren't willing to accept sorting our own repairs, what course of action should be followed to try and arrive at that result?

djimi

This one is almost certainly going to have to go through the insurance. You have to report it to them anyway; there is a good chance that the other party will wake up this morning with a sore neck (either after the shock has worn off or they have been talking to someone who put the compensation idea in their head...) and if you will need to at least make the insurance aware of the accident and that you might need to claim. Doesnt mean that you have to go ahead with the claim.

Also if you dispute the fault (which I strongly advise you do as this was not your fault) then unless the other party holds their hands up and admits liability (very unlikely) then this is going to go to insurance. Im not sure how they will be able to verify your story, but give them your full account of events and then let them go to the other party and see what they have to say for themselves; insurers have assessors who do this for a living and will hopefully be able to assertain what happened. Even if they cant come to an agreement and it ends up being 50/50 then its better than having it 100% your fault.

HAve you admitted liability already?
THe other party would be off their tree to admit any liability imo.

cormie

Thanks for the input again. Definitely didn't admit liability. I said something along the lines of "I know the driver behind is usually to blame in a rear end situation, but I think you shouldn't have come out" and I said I'm not going to get into an argument at the roadside so will go home and talk on Monday when I've calmed and can think clearly.

keithclancy

In fairness, if you were doing your test and slowed down coming up to every minor road on the off chance that someone might pull out when their not supposed to you'd fail for not making progress.

SilverBell

cormie wrote: »

Thanks for the input again. Definitely didn't admit liability. I said something along the lines of "I know the driver behind is usually to blame in a rear end situation, but I think you shouldn't have come out" and I said I'm not going to get into an argument at the roadside so will go home and talk on Monday when I've calmed and can think clearly.

I remember my sister had an accident similar to this once (10-12 years ago). She was on a main road in suburban Dublin. Busy traffic. A small flatbed lorry pulled out of a side road (from the left) in front of her. He was slow to accelerate. She rear ended him.
As far as I remember, judgement was made in her favour, despite the driver of the van accusing her of travelling too fast. I'll phone her and ask her the details later today.

cormie

That would be greatly appreciated, thanks a lot When you say judgement, do you mean insurance companies decision, or did it actually go to court? I'd rather avoid anything going that far so hopefully it won't be necessary!

Cuddlesworth

Put it through the insurance. Hope she either admits that she pulled out in front of you or implies that she didn't see you. I would assume it would go in your favour then. If she lies and either says she was already on the road, or had pulled out and was a reasonable distance up the road before the rear end it will go against you.

Invest in a bigger SD card for your recorder as well. Might give you more headroom in future if you forget again. Recovering overwritten data is huge money and for something like a uncompressed video file, not going to happen.

cormie

That's what I'd like to find out more about alright, the possibility of recovering the file. You reckon it's long gone anyway since it's been recorded over with another video file? It's recording in .MKV to the device.

Yawns

No harm in checking tho. Download a free program called Recuva and give it a go. Try to restore all the files if you don't recognise the file name and have a trawl through. Restore them into your main hard drive and not the same file card.

You have nothing to lose by trying to restore it.

SilverBell

cormie wrote: »

That would be greatly appreciated, thanks a lot When you say judgement, do you mean insurance companies decision, or did it actually go to court? I'd rather avoid anything going that far so hopefully it won't be necessary!

I've PM'ed you, spoke to my sis, and it turns out my description of the accident was not like yours at all...Sorry. Comes with age.....:cool:

reading Cuddlesworths post, would it be useful to have measurements, like distance between where she pulled out and where the impact took place...etc?

It BeeMee

cormie wrote: »

Just some additional information I forgot to mention is the fact that it was raining and the road was wet, this makes stopping distance pretty much twice as long. Also, I'm not sure if it makes a difference or will make things more complicated insurance wise, but it was a company car of a sales rep and my insurance is a fleet policy.

If it was privately owned, there might be a chance of them not reporting it to their insurance, but the fact it's a company car may mean the company that owns it may want (need?) to report it.

cormie wrote: »

Also, in a 50/50 case, is it always just a case of paying for the damage to your own vehicle and not splitting the total bill I guess? As in, 100eur will fix my vehicle but the other car needs much more, so I'd end up paying half their bill and half mine? I assume not

50/50 means splitting the full bill evenly across both parties.

cormie

Thanks again for the suggestions and Silverbell, for the PM!

I'd say she got no more than 10 meters. It's going to be a tricky one but I'll see what happens anyway. I don't think she'll be trying anything like whiplash claims or anything like that. I even said "you're not going to say you got whiplash or anything"

Will try that software, thanks!

dharn

i recon if you could establish without question ,how far the other car had traveled along the main road , ie if they had just straightened up you could not be blamed

Anan1

rex-x wrote: »

I always wondered what happened in a situation where two cars are travelling with safe distance between them at 60 mph but the front one had massively better brakes.
For instance:
this is my 1100kg peugeot featuring 305mm 4 pot brembos and could easily stop from 60 mph in the amount of time it would take someone behind to react if not focused on my lights!, by comparison to a road legal maybe 95 corolla with its milk bottle tops? They did everything correctly but were simply outbraked?

Most modern cars can easily brake hard enough from 60mph to trigger the ABS - once you can do that, only stickier tyres will stop you faster.