How to get cycling lanes in my small town. (wexford)

Donelson

Is the county council the right place to start? Should they have a map or a plan, is it part of the local area plan? Or should I start with my local counselor/td
The main reason I would like to have cycle lanes is to remind driver that cyclist are out there and help to improve the safety of cycling In town.
Any practical advice would be much appreciated!

kuro_man

be careful what you wish for! :eek:

Donelson

Ah now, I'm only looking for the painted on variety, not the big fancy ones ya see in the big smoke.

rp

Cycle lanes pose a significant danger to cyclists: they force you into the least safe position in the road, especially around junctions; cars will pass closer if there is a painted line; and at the same time, they do no provide any protection. International stats show something like a 30% increase in death and injury compared to shared road use. So, be careful what you wish for...

Squidgy Black

It might not be possible to get cycling lanes, the main reason there's painted on lanes in Dublin is because they're incorporated into the bus lanes. The majority of roads in smaller towns are only designed to fit one lane of traffic each way so there won't be enough space.

Tl;dr you'd need to have bus lanes for it to work.

thebouldwhacker

I disagree about the bus lane argument and while I do understand the anti cycle lane argument (personally I see them as puncture lanes) I do see the advantage of them.

OP I might suggest seeking out similar roads on your bike and see how they work and if you think they would be a positive addition to your road go for it, we do live in a democracy after all.

First find out who owns the road, NRA or CC then check their sites for protocols.
I reckon unless there is an existing plan there maybe funding issues though.

Enjoy the fight

Donelson

I will re-exam the safety angle, but I do struggle to believed it could be less safe then what we have today, anybody I talk to who could but doesn't cycle it's down to safety.
One thing that bugs me is the one way system in the town counter flow cycle lanes would make a huge difference! And that's plenty of room.
I wood think there is no money in the budget, but I'll be looking to the next plan or the plan after that, I'll be here for a while.

rp

Donelson wrote: »

I will re-exam the safety angle, but I do struggle to believed it could be less safe then what we have today, anybody I talk to who could but doesn't cycle it's down to safety.

yeah, there is a common view (misconception, imho) that cycle lanes increase safety, and they do, when built right: but the Netherlands seems to be the only place where such lanes exist - and even there, cyclist and cars are not segregated in the city centre, only on faster routes.
Here is a good, balanced overview.

michaelm

Based on my own experience of tackling this in my own area I will briefly suggest the following:

1. Towns with mayors will have their new mayors installed at the end of this month. This role is effectively chairperson of the town council and very often put together a programme of issues they would like to tackle - would be really worth talking to this person, and your timing is perfect!

2. Do your own research, pick an "easy win" and make this the first goal, once a start is made it is easier to take the next, possibly bigger, step.

This is the route we went down 3 years ago and we have now established the town on Nenagh as a cycling hub with 3 fully signed and mapped cycling routes, a growing number of cycle paths, (separate from the road) and last April we had our own cycle race The Visit Nenagh Classic.

Start small - but keep going

OP - Feel free to contact me privately for further info

Darkglasses

I'm another Wexford cyclist, and I'm sorry to say I won't be supporting this call for cycle lanes at all! And definitely not the painted-on variety.

1. Most of the roads around Wexford town are very narrow, I can imagine cars will certainly be inching into the bike lanes, and it won't encourage drivers to give a safe passing distance. I would be concerned that drivers will get a false sense of security to only pass a cyclist with the width of a painted line.

2. There's so much on-street parking in Wexford, they will become parking zones, just like they do in Dublin.

3. The current cycle paths in the town (I can think of only two, at the round-abouts at Killeens and the ones near the hospital) are not usable. I don't trust whoever's job it is to make safe cycle lanes.

4. They may not be conducive to a good attitude from motorists. I can foresee a growth in "Get in the ****ing cycle lane!" attitudes.

Off-road cycle routes I would be in favour of, like the Mayo greenway. But not on-road ones. I first cycled in Dublin, so I was well-used to cycle lanes to begin with. Now, having moved to a place where they are very scarce, I find my cycling experience much improved.

Lumen

Is the town Wexford, or in Wexford?

michaelm

I would agree with all of the above and not knowing Wexford find it difficult to be specific. I would suggest however that a few people get together and have an indepth look at all possibilities and see if it is possible to identify any areas where paths, separate from traffic, could be located. We simply have to accept that there are many streets in Irish towns where separate lanes could never be installed but there may be opportunities on the outskirts and at on approach roads to the town. The devleopment of a secure bike park in the town would also be a positive step.

Darkglasses

Lumen wrote: »

Is the town Wexford, or in Wexford?

The main reason I would like to have cycle lanes is to remind driver that cyclist are out there and help to improve the safety of cycling In town.

That'll be Wexford town then I think!

Donelson

Darkglasses wrote: »

I'm another Wexford cyclist, and I'm sorry to say I won't be supporting this call for cycle lanes at all! And definitely not the painted-on variety.

1. Most of the roads around Wexford town are very narrow, I can imagine cars will certainly be inching into the bike lanes, and it won't encourage drivers to give a safe passing distance. I would be concerned that drivers will get a false sense of security to only pass a cyclist with the width of a painted line.

2. There's so much on-street parking in Wexford, they will become parking zones, just like they do in Dublin.

3. The current cycle paths in the town (I can think of only two, at the round-abouts at Killeens and the ones near the hospital) are not usable. I don't trust whoever's job it is to make safe cycle lanes.

4. They may not be conducive to a good attitude from motorists. I can foresee a growth in "Get in the ****ing cycle lane!" attitudes.

Off-road cycle routes I would be in favour of, like the Mayo greenway. But not on-road ones. I first cycled in Dublin, so I was well-used to cycle lanes to begin with. Now, having moved to a place where they are very scarce, I find my cycling experience much improved.

Ok, I can appreciate your point of view, so what would you suggest to improve cycling I'm wexford town?

On a practical example. Take the bridge in town, I often (relatively) see cyclist cycling on the footpath because the bridge is too narrow and driver do make some very close passes if you cycle on the bridge. Surely this situation can be improved? And one potential solution is to create an on pavement cycle path, but there may be other better options?

I'm sure with a bit of thought there are a lot more improvements are possible, even take the county council building having a bike rack near the entrance would be a small but useful step.

I will continue to gather ideas and would welcome your suggestions.

Donelson

michaelm wrote: »

Based on my own experience of tackling this in my own area I will briefly suggest the following:

1. Towns with mayors will have their new mayors installed at the end of this month. This role is effectively chairperson of the town council and very often put together a programme of issues they would like to tackle - would be really worth talking to this person, and your timing is perfect!

2. Do your own research, pick an "easy win" and make this the first goal, once a start is made it is easier to take the next, possibly bigger, step.

This is the route we went down 3 years ago and we have now established the town on Nenagh as a cycling hub with 3 fully signed and mapped cycling routes, a growing number of cycle paths, (separate from the road) and last April we had our own cycle race The Visit Nenagh Classic.

Start small - but keep going

OP - Feel free to contact me privately for further info

thanks michaelm, this it's my first time getting involved on a local level so I'll take all the advice you have to offer.

Donelson

One more idea would be a cycle path on the quay with a train tracks crossing point near the talbot.
these are just little ideas but the if enough of them could be achieved it would make a big difference!

opti0nal

Donelson wrote: »

Ok, I can appreciate your point of view, so what would you suggest to improve cycling I'm wexford town?

Reduce on-street parking, lower the speed limits to 30kph, rigorously enforce the restrictions.

Have cycle parking created in the freed-up car parking spaces, as close as possible to the shopping.

Make friends with pedestrian interests and concentrate on quality of life issues for non-motorists.

And...don't look for cycle lanes/cycle tracks...you'll be sorry.

Seweryn

Donelson wrote: »

On a practical example. Take the bridge in town, I often (relatively) see cyclist cycling on the footpath because the bridge is too narrow and driver do make some very close passes if you cycle on the bridge. Surely this situation can be improved?

You can't cycle on the footpath, it is for pedestrians only. Road is for all vehicles - cars, bicycles, tractors, etc. Just cycle through the bridge by taking the lane, i.e. cycle in the middle of the lane to avoid dangerous overtaking (or "close passes" as you named it ).

Donelson

opti0nal wrote: »

Donelson wrote: »

Ok, I can appreciate your point of view, so what would you suggest to improve cycling I'm wexford town?

Reduce on-street parking, lower the speed limits to 30kph, rigorously enforce the restrictions.

Have cycle parking created in the freed-up car parking spaces, as close as possible to the shopping.

Make friends with pedestrian interests and concentrate on quality of life issues for non-motorists.

And...don't look for cycle lanes/cycle tracks...you'll be sorry.

I'm quiet surprised at the strength of feeling about cycle lanes!
but how else can you encourage motorists to allow space for cyclist? As it is, motorist barely over take, pull hard left and slow down sharply, leaving me to slam on my brakes.
we have a tiny number of town cyclists and I can only see it decreasing with out some improvements!

Donelson

Seweryn wrote: »

Donelson wrote: »

On a practical example. Take the bridge in town, I often (relatively) see cyclist cycling on the footpath because the bridge is too narrow and driver do make some very close passes if you cycle on the bridge. Surely this situation can be improved?

You can't cycle on the footpath, it is for pedestrians only. Road is for all vehicles - cars, bicycles, tractors, etc. Just cycle through the bridge by taking the lane, i.e. cycle in the middle of the lane to avoid dangerous overtaking (or "close passes" as you named it ).

I'm 100% with you on the footpaths are for pedestrians, it actually really annoys me when I see people cycling where they shouldn't. But unfortunately the bridge is unsafe and very unpleasant for cyclists as it is.
There most be some win-win improvements that can be made.

Seweryn

Donelson wrote: »

I'm 100% with you on the footpaths are for pedestrians, it actually really annoys me when I see people cycling where they shouldn't. But unfortunately the bridge is unsafe and very unpleasant for cyclists as it is.
There must be some win-win improvements that can be made.

We should make it safer by taking some actions. Write to your local government with your concerns, go on the streets to protest, etc. In other places they got it right. See here...

opti0nal

Donelson wrote: »

but how else can you encourage motorists to allow space for cyclist? As it is, motorist barely over take, pull hard left and slow down sharply, leaving me to slam on my brakes.

Promote a 'cyclists are people' campaign' illustrate it with videos taken on your bike of the near-misses.

Get motor insurance companies to issue advice to drivers and stickers promoting sharing/caring driving. The insurance companies should care as it's them that have to pick up the claims when their customers hit cyclists.

seeing_ie

Seweryn wrote: »

You can't cycle on the footpath, it is for pedestrians only. Road is for all vehicles - cars, bicycles, tractors, etc. Just cycle through the bridge by taking the lane, i.e. cycle in the middle of the lane to avoid dangerous overtaking (or "close passes" as you named it ).

This is the post most relevant to you OP.

Take the lane when necessary for safety reasons.

If you cycle in the gutter drivers will take it as an invitation to squeeze past you.

Donelson

This thread has been derailed, can a mod lock it for me please.

-PornStar-

Donelson wrote: »

This thread has been derailed, can a mod lock it for me please.

People are just trying to help you. Cycle lanes are usually a terribly implemented. They are rarely an improvement for cyclists. They force you to go slower, and put you in contention with pedestrians.

The best way to ensure your safety on the bike. Is to cycle in the center of the lane, with the rest of the traffic. Cycling on the far left of the road, only encourages drivers to overtake you dangerously. If you see oncoming traffic, then you should be right in the middle of the lane. This is not to be a dick, but for your own safety. It is suicidal to cycle on the left hand side of the road in Wexford town, because of the on street parking. You are right in the door zone. So when someone opens their door, you have no option than to go right into it. From there you will be flung out into oncoming traffic.

You really should pick up a copy of John Franklin's, Cyclecraft. Its written for the UK roads, but it is all relevant to cycling here in Ireland.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cyclecraft-complete-enjoyable-cycling-children/dp/0117037400/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1339885516&sr=8-1

Donelson

I have no doubt that peoples intentions are/where good, and I will stop and consider the points raised. But from my reading of the thread, cycle lanes do not improve cycling safety, so everybody is left with cycle in the middle of the road or get back in the car, I find it disheartening, that most people myself included will have to choose the car but if that is really the reality then there is nothing more to be done.

Darkglasses

Donelson wrote: »

I have no doubt that peoples intentions are/where good, and I will stop and consider the points raised. But from my reading of the thread, cycle lanes do not improve cycling safety, so everybody is left with cycle in the middle of the road or get back in the car, I find it disheartening, that most people myself included will have to choose the car but if that is really the reality then there is nothing more to be done.

Don't be disheartened dude! I really quite enjoy my commute in Wexford! Safety in numbers

-PornStar-

Donelson wrote: »

I have no doubt that peoples intentions are/where good, and I will stop and consider the points raised. But from my reading of the thread, cycle lanes do not improve cycling safety, so everybody is left with cycle in the middle of the road or get back in the car, I find it disheartening, that most people myself included will have to choose the car but if that is really the reality then there is nothing more to be done.

That is cycling, that is the safest way of cycling. If there is no room for other road users to overtake, then they just have to deal with it. It is the same when they are stuck behind a tractor, or HGV. If it is not safe for them to overtake, then they are required by law to wait patiently.

I'm not trying to put you off cycling. I am just concerned with your current cycling habits. Stay away from those parked cars, they are lethal. I know it seems counter intuitive, and pretty much goes against everything you have been told about safe cycling. But being in the center of the lane is only place you should be, when it is unsafe for cars to be overtaking you.

I was recently discussing this topic with my sister. Saying how it seems silly that the safest place to be is in the middle of the lane. But she knew exactly what I was talking about, as she has to do the exact same thing when she is out on horses. It gives you room to maneuver, and forces dangerous drivers to overtake ONLY when it is safe to do so.

Seriously, you need to give that book a read.

Donelson

The reality of cycling in the middle of the road in wexford is that you will have cars clamped to your rear wheel for the entire journey, safe yes, appealing no.
If this thread keeps going I'll end up putting my bike up on adverts

defy, 2 years old with 5k, new tires, nct's 2013.

Lumen

Donelson wrote: »

The reality of cycling in the middle of the road in wexford is that you will have cars clamped to your rear wheel for the entire journey, safe yes, appealing no.

You don't need to cycle in the middle of the lane ALL of the time, just when failing to do so is likely to make the stupidest drivers have an accident.

In Dublin there's only a couple of places on my usual routes where I completely "take the lane", one of them is a railway bridge with a high kerb, narrow lane and blind crest. In that case, some idiots will overtake despite having zero visibility of the road ahead and no "plan B" which doesn't involve running me over.

I don't think Wexford town is particularly unusual or different from Dublin, in fact the speeds are a bit lower in Wexford if anything. The main roads outside the town itself are good for cycling, great visibility and a wide, well-surfaced hard shoulder.

Seweryn

Donelson wrote: »

The reality of cycling in the middle of the road lane in Wexford is that you will have cars clamped to your rear wheel for the entire journey, safe yes, appealing no.

Are you sorry for the drivers or you care about your safety? You have exactly the same right for being there and using the lane, as any other road users.

Cycling in this country was somehow pushed off the road in recent decades by our own society, by making our culture car-centric. That is what we need to change. The people's mindsets, not much more than that.

Donelson wrote: »

If this thread keeps going I'll end up putting my bike up on adverts

By doing this, it sounds like you are going to accept the behavior of other road users and driving a car instead. Secondly, by driving instead, you move the problem away from you, but to other cyclists...

Sean02

Perhaps when the new M.J.Wallace company gets up and running this could be thier first project. One thing is that it will be cheapest as it will be VAT exempt.

p

Before you talk to them try find out good figures and numbers to back up your claims. Increasing cycling is a really sound investment, but not always appreciated. Cycling solves three major problems in our society:
- Increases health, and reduces burden on jobs (from sick leave) and health service
- Reduces traffic from people who used to drive.
- Better for the environment, as it's much less polluting.

Here's a starting place for numbers:
http://www.copenhagenize.com/2012/06/lets-talk-numbers.html

Seweryn

p wrote: »

Increasing cycling is a really sound investment, but not always appreciated. Cycling solves three major problems in our society:
- Increases health, and reduces burden on jobs (from sick leave) and health service
- Reduces traffic from people who used to drive.
- Better for the environment, as it's much less polluting.

Imagine making the changes the hard, Dutch way, i.e. making the town centres for pedestrians and cyclists only. That is the way they did it.

rp

Seweryn wrote: »

Imagine making the changes the hard, Dutch way, i.e. making the town centres for pedestrians and cyclists only. That is the way they did it.

Or the easy way: campaign to quit the Euro and we'll make the whole country for pedestrians and cyclists only...

Donelson

Cars are very much an necessary evil in the countryside, so peaceful coexistence is the best I can hope for.
I was in town this morning and nearly without exception people were driving in the gutter!

Donelson

Lumen wrote: »

I don't think Wexford town is particularly unusual or different from Dublin, in fact the speeds are a bit lower in Wexford if anything. The main roads outside the town itself are good for cycling, great visibility and a wide, well-surfaced hard shoulder.

Yes the nra roads are good, n11, n25 etc. the spin from wexford to waterford is a favorite, you nearly always have the wind at your back on the way home.

I agree speeds in town are lower but drivers are also very unfamiliar with cyclist and are liable to do just about anything

Seweryn

Donelson wrote: »

Cars are very much an necessary evil in the countryside...

Are they? Then... I have been doing it all wrong . I sold my car, got another bicycle to cycle to work, etc. and I can exist that way perfectly. And I live in the countryside .

Mycroft H

Seweryn wrote: »

Are they? Then... I have been doing it all wrong . I sold my car, got another bicycle to cycle to work, etc. and I can exist that way perfectly. And I live in the countryside .

They are really. I used to work 75km away. No way I could do it without a car, I wouldn't have the energy to go back and forth 5 days a week on a bike. 1-2 maybe :pac:

Same with college, over 80km away.

30k is the practice limit for commuting on a bike. (shower at end a must at that distances....)

rp

BX 19 wrote: »

They are really. I used to work 75km away. No way I could do it without a car

this cheap petrol ain't gonna last for ever, a plan B might be a good idea...

n900guy

rp wrote: »

Cycle lanes pose a significant danger to cyclists: they force you into the least safe position in the road, especially around junctions; cars will pass closer if there is a painted line; and at the same time, they do no provide any protection. International stats show something like a 30% increase in death and injury compared to shared road use. So, be careful what you wish for...

This seems like nonsense

I live in Amsterdam, and cycle lanes here and that are all around the country are excellent and safe and for the most part separate to the vehicle lanes by a small curb (and also using red bricks instead of asphalt).

Junctions are excellent; for example here is a way it's typically done in an urban area with a separated bike lane:
http://maps.google.nl/maps?q=bloemendaal&hl=en&ll=52.392204,4.609546&spn=0.004629,0.011469&hnear=Bloemendaal,+North+Holland&gl=nl&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=52.392204,4.609546&panoid=ZyM4eoeKqoUELqngyU5oTA&cbp=12,251.72,,0,12.97

Here's another type of junction, with metal poles instead of a divider and red markings:
http://maps.google.nl/maps?q=bloemendaal&hl=en&ll=52.349758,4.85804&spn=0.004502,0.011469&hnear=Bloemendaal,+North+Holland&gl=nl&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=52.349758,4.85804&panoid=ZGOJ90Jieus06C4JigibfA&cbp=12,55.04,,0,26.35

Here is a typical smaller road with adjacent and concrete/asphalt style bike lane:
http://maps.google.nl/maps?q=bloemendaal&hl=en&ll=52.401009,4.559201&spn=0.002235,0.005735&hnear=Bloemendaal,+North+Holland&gl=nl&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=52.401009,4.559201&panoid=PEPcT2y8-0pIm8aPk5bTkg&cbp=12,106.23,,0,9.6

Here is an urban/centre road with red separated bike lanes:
http://maps.google.nl/maps?q=bloemendaal&hl=en&ll=52.373231,4.901158&spn=0.000007,0.005735&hnear=Bloemendaal,+North+Holland&gl=nl&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=52.373368,4.90123&panoid=qPq8VovT594FKSMdKxE_3w&cbp=12,12.91,,0,9.26

What it really requires is simply forward planning to connect for example the two most populated areas of any connurbation with a separated bike lane that has right of way. After that, start connected more to smaller areas. Markins, bollards, whatever. It all needs to be tried out to see what works best for whatever local community is doing it.

Seweryn

BX 19 wrote: »

They are really. I used to work 75km away. No way I could do it without a car, I wouldn't have the energy to go back and forth 5 days a week on a bike. 1-2 maybe :pac:

Sure, sure... There must be something completely wrong with me. I wouldn't take a job 75km away, because I wouldn't like to spend few hours every day in a can, just to get to work :pac:.

BX 19 wrote: »

30k is the practice limit for commuting on a bike. (shower at end a must at that distances....)

Agree and my commute is just below that limit .
However, shower is not a must, as I do not have one at work, but can still function just fine .

Seweryn

n900guy wrote: »

This seems like nonsense

I live in Amsterdam, and cycle lanes here and that are all around the country are excellent and safe and for the most part separate to the vehicle lanes by a small curb (and also using red bricks instead of asphalt)...

Amsterdam... I do not know where to start . This country in a different planet if you compare cycling facilities and safety of cycling. There is actually nothing like you have in Holland by any means.

If I was responsible for building new cycle lanes, I would employ consultants and engineers from Holland. That would be the only way to build them properly.

Mycroft H

Seweryn wrote: »

:

Agree and my commute is just below that limit .
However, shower is not a must, as I do not have one at work, but can still function just fine .

I'm envious of all you non sweaty people.

-PornStar-

n900guy wrote: »

This seems like nonsense

I live in Amsterdam, and cycle lanes here and that are all around the country are excellent and safe and for the most part separate to the vehicle lanes by a small curb (and also using red bricks instead of asphalt).

There is a big difference in cycling in, unquestionably, the most cycling friendly country. And cycling anywhere else in the world.

While in Amsterdam the cycling facilities are created in tandem with the specific car facilities, and footpaths. Here in Ireland cycling is always, and I mean always , an afterthought. The way things work is, get the roads set up for use by motor vehicles. Then put the cycle paths off to the side, with no consideration for priority at junctions. Most often than not in contention with pedestrians.

For just one example of someones commute, check out this link. Also, remember, that you are required by law to use these cycle paths.

http://www.dublincycling.ie/beckettbridge

In Amsterdam, children are taught at an early age, how to behave in a motor vehicle. What considerations they need to give other road users. There is no where else that I know of, that does this. Amsterdam is a truly remarkable exception, not by any means the rule.

Bunnyhopper

n900guy wrote: »

This seems like nonsense

What???

n900guy wrote: »

I live in Amsterdam

Ah, right, now it makes sense

I transferred flights at Schipol a couple of times recently. I was amused to notice that even from hundreds of metres up in the air I could still tell that the cycle lanes are way better than anything you're likely to find in Ireland. :rolleyes:

rp

n900guy wrote: »

This seems like nonsense

yeah, as I said elsewhere, Nederlands and Denmark are about the only exceptions to my statement that bike lanes increase the danger to cyclists, and until NL redesigned their approach in the 70s, they were just as dangerous as elsewhere. They addressed the issues that still exist for bikelanes in IRL, UK, DE for example.

monument

rp wrote: »

yeah, there is a common view (misconception, imho) that cycle lanes increase safety, and they do, when built right: but the Netherlands seems to be the only place where such lanes exist - and even there, cyclist and cars are not segregated in the city centre, only on faster routes.

Loads of cycle paths in Dutch and Dainish city centres -- shared space is limited to small roads with traffic restrictions and even many of these smaller roads will have cycle lanes.

In any case, maybe the main reasoning for cycle lanes in central areas should not be safety, but -- like bus lanes -- to bypass other traffic lanes which tend to get congested.

rp wrote: »

Here is a good, balanced overview.

A major flaw there is the logic loop / paradox of the Dutch and Dains etc retained and grew cyclists numbers because of their cycle paths and cycle lane, and the growth in cycling is worldwide has been heavily linked with providing such space for cyclists.

stetyrrell wrote: »

It might not be possible to get cycling lanes, the main reason there's painted on lanes in Dublin is because they're incorporated into the bus lanes. The majority of roads in smaller towns are only designed to fit one lane of traffic each way so there won't be enough space.

Tl;dr you'd need to have bus lanes for it to work.

The split in the Dublin City Council area, according to the latest Bypad report, is 65% on-road cycle lanes, 25% shared bus lanes and 10% segragated.

Now, while there's a lot of the 65% on road which is inside bus lanes (really a part of them), there's more km of cycle lanes than bus lanes. I'm not saying any of that is qualty, but just that bus and cycle lanes are not as linked as you are claiming. Indeed, a cycle lane can fit when a bus lane can't.

Saying all of the above, any solution needs to fit the local area, down to each street. And towns and cities which design cycle lanes for the first time seem to make same mistakes, like history repeating it self over and over.

But it's also worth noting that this fourm is heavily biased -- its user base is largely made up of faster cyclists and cyclists who are happy to use the road. That's fine for those people, not so good if you want more cyclists or if you're one of the many people who won't cycle in current conditions.

rp wrote: »

Seweryn wrote: »

Imagine making the changes the hard, Dutch way, i.e. making the town centres for pedestrians and cyclists only. That is the way they did it.

Or the easy way: campaign to quit the Euro and we'll make the whole country for pedestrians and cyclists only...

Rolly eyes to both of those.

BX 19 wrote: »

They are really. I used to work 75km away. No way I could do it without a car, I wouldn't have the energy to go back and forth 5 days a week on a bike. 1-2 maybe :pac:

Same with college, over 80km away.

30k is the practice limit for commuting on a bike. (shower at end a must at that distances....)

None of this applies to most people -- commues of 50km are a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of overall trips.

Even commutes over 20km aren't worth talking about. The adverage commute nationally may be now 15km+ but because there such a gap between the lower end and the higher end, the mean is more important.

rp

monument wrote: »

A major flaw there is the logic loop / paradox of the Dutch and Dains etc retained and grew cyclists numbers because of their cycle paths and cycle lane, and the growth in cycling is worldwide has been heavily linked with providing such space for cyclists.

That is my point: their cycle lanes are not a bit of paint slapped onto a an already-too-narrow road. The Dutch had exactly the same problems with poorly design and executed cycle lanes as we are suffering from. The problems I mentioned above were explicitly addressed after the protests in the seventies, and I would guess, that faced with limited space as in Wexford, they would not attempt the separate cycle lanes approach, but by removing cars from the city and/or introducing a shared-space system, as in Groningen.

tomasrojo

monument wrote: »

None of this applies to most people -- commues of 50km are a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of overall trips.

Even commutes over 20km aren't worth talking about. The adverage commute nationally may be now 15km+ but because there such a gap between the lower end and the higher end, the mean is more important.

Median?