Waterford City lowest % payment of household Charge

Max Powers

Im not surpised only 44.5% paid, people are disillusioned, highest unemployment rate in country, less disposable income than average, bailout etc.

On the other hand, the city badly needs to put its best foot forward in presenting itself, will the shortfall lead to reduction in street cleaning, keeping parks tidy, possible council lay-offs. Added to that, you have people who are more than capable of paying and have a stero-typical Irish attitude of i dont care about anyone outside my clan, to hell with the rest of society.

wellboytoo

Still it's a lot more than a lot of the nay sayers on here predicted would pay!
"I'll never pay the..." etc, hopefully there will be a period of crossover between central funds ceasing and self financing from the local charge.
Give the City Council time to get the balance into line.

BBM77

I think we should not pay it. We need to do something to show the government that we a sick of being treated like second class citizens. We pay our taxes and return two government TD’s in every election (this time three) and we get second rate service from the government, if even that, for it. When they start treating us like the rest of the country we’ll pay like the rest of the country.

danjo-xx

When TD Mick Wallace wont pay his tax bill why should we pay this!

He was collecting vat but didn't pass it on to revenue but instead used it for his own needs.

Am Chile

Fair play to waterford for being the highest non payment area in the country and fair play to the local waterford anti household tax campaign for their hard work, its certainly paid off, its gonna be a long fight, they might get €100 off some people, but they won,t be getting a few €1000 a year as people just won,t be able to afford it simple as that.

fricatus

Am Chile wrote: »

Fair play to waterford for being the highest non payment area in the country and fair play to the local waterford anti household tax campaign for their hard work, its certainly paid off, its gonna be a long fight, they might get €100 off some people, but they won,t be getting a few €1000 a year as people just won,t be able to afford it simple as that.

About 75% of the wealth in this country is held in property. The rich who own most of the property should pay a property tax, which in effect is a wealth tax.

If there is no property tax, the shortfall will have to be made up of consumption taxes such as VAT (which will hit the poor) and income taxes and taxes on business (which will hit enterprise and jobs).

Any socialist who thinks for himself should support a property tax!

7upfree

fricatus wrote: »

The rich who own most of the property should pay a property tax, which in effect is a wealth tax.

So your saying working class people are rich? Great reasoning.

fricatus

7upfree wrote: »

So your saying working class people are rich? Great reasoning.

Those who own most property are by definition the rich... and they should pay the most tax.

7upfree

fricatus wrote: »

Those who own most property are by definition the rich... and they should pay the most tax.

Total rubbish. Of the worst kind. Define "most property".

fricatus

7upfree wrote: »

Total rubbish. Of the worst kind. Define "most property".

Fine. Don't take my word for it. How about Ronan Lyons, an economist who's an expert in the area?

Or Bank of Ireland's 2006 report on where the nation's wealth is held.

Ronan Lyons wrote:

But it was property that was the overwhelming type of wealth in Ireland, making up 72% of all wealth...

Most of the wealth in this country is held in property, like I told you!

I'll leave Ronan with the last word:

Ronan Lyons wrote:

...So when people talk about taxing wealth in this country, they are talking principally about taxing the homes that we live in. In second place comes taxing the deposits we have in the bank. Make sure to mention this to the next person who says “We don’t need a property tax, we need a wealth tax”.

Finnbar01

fricatus wrote: »

Fine. Don't take my word for it. How about Ronan Lyons, an economist who's an expert in the area?

Or Bank of Ireland's 2006 report on where the nation's wealth is held.



Most of the wealth in this country is held in property, like I told you!

I'll leave Ronan with the last word:

Well Ronan is wrong. We don't need no extra taxes in this country.

What we need to do is balance our budget and live within our means.

Bears and Vodka

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Well Ronan is wrong. We don't need no extra taxes in this country.

What we need to do is balance our budget and live within our means.

Thus the extra taxes.

Streets need to be kept and also the 'budget needs to be balanced'. The opportunity cost of not paying the Household Charge is that the budget deficit is even greater. If people pay the Household Charge then (in theory) the Government can spend the money saved on servicing the Budget Deficit.

wellboytoo

I'm by no means a socialist, but I support a property tax, one that everyone pays, whether you own or rent a property, you should pay it.
It is the most equitable form of taxation, but I don't think the present or any Government has the balls to bring it in as it should be to make it fair to all.
There is a crazy situation going on in the commercial rates area at the moment, where the rates are higher than the rent on a lot of buildings!! this is not sustainable , the load has to be shouldered by morwe of the population or the whole shaebang will seize up.
Waterford City Council rates arrears gone up to 6.3 million!

thomasm

Ronan Lyons wrote:

But it was property that was the overwhelming type of wealth in Ireland, making up 72% of all wealth...

Most of the wealth in this country is held in property, like I told you!

Surely that's when property values were going in a certain trajectory. Most property portfolios are now cash draining, illiquid, deprecating "assets"

Finnbar01

subz3r0 wrote: »

Thus the extra taxes.

Streets need to be kept and also the 'budget needs to be balanced'. The opportunity cost of not paying the Household Charge is that the budget deficit is even greater. If people pay the Household Charge then (in theory) the Government can spend the money saved on servicing the Budget Deficit.

So in other words the government knows better than you when it comes to spending your money?

Bears and Vodka

Finnbar01 wrote: »

So in other words the government knows better than you when it comes to spending your money?

Well you would never pay €100 voluntarily towards keeping the streets tidy, would you? And the situation that we're in, it has to be done so there you go.

Finnbar01

subz3r0 wrote: »

Well you would never pay €100 voluntarily towards keeping the streets tidy, would you? And the situation that we're in, it has to be done so there you go.

We already pay enough towards upkeep of our streets. If we want to making savings we should start with the top. Cutting politicians, councillours and senior civil servant salaries.

When we've done that, then come back and talk to me about increasing taxes.

Bears and Vodka

Finnbar01 wrote: »

We already pay enough towards upkeep of our streets. If we want to making savings we should start with the top. Cutting politicians, councillours and senior civil servant salaries.

When we've done that, then come back and talk to me about increasing taxes.

Very true about politicians salaries etc.

But... if you add up all the excess salaries/bonuses/pensions of civil servants how much will the State save annually? A few million? For arguments sake €10million?

And how many households have not paid the Household tax countrywide? Roughly 50%? 50% of households = 730,000 households x €100 = €73million

State is losing out much more on the stubborn households than on the overpaid politicians. This in no way justifies politicians being overpaid but put things in perspective.

A real problem with the Household Charge is that it's a regressive tax. An OAP will pay the same €100 as a D4 mansion owner (stereotype, I know, sorry). Household charge has to be progressive but then how do you decide who pays how much?

Finnbar01

subz3r0 wrote: »

Very true about politicians salaries etc.

So you adimt that then. Why should we pay them more?

But... if you add up all the excess salaries/bonuses/pensions of civil servants how much will the State save annually? A few million? For arguments sake €10million?

Going back to 2006 , we pay qaungos up to €13 billion per year, yes that's €13,000,000,000.
.

And how many households have not paid the Household tax countrywide? Roughly 50%? 50% of households = 730,000 households x €100 = €73million

State is losing out much more on the stubborn households than on the overpaid politicians. This in no way justifies politicians being overpaid but put things in perspective.

A real problem with the Household Charge is that it's a regressive tax. An OAP will pay the same €100 as a D4 mansion owner (stereotype, I know, sorry). Household charge has to be progressive but then how do you decide who pays how much?

People who bought their houses paid for it through taxes already. Why should they pay more?

Bears and Vodka

Finnbar01 wrote: »

So you adimt that then. Why should we pay them more?

Admit what? Pay who? Pay extra to politicians? No, we shouldn't, you're right.

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Going back to 2006 , we pay qaungos up to €13 billion per year, yes that's €13,000,000,000.

What is it now? 2006 is the worst year to compare to, however. But ok fair enough, point taken.

Finnbar01 wrote: »

People who bought their houses paid for it through taxes already. Why should they pay more?

Because unfortunately we are in a very big economic mess and if everyone just says 'Why should Í pay more?' it's going to get worse.

Yes, it's not the ordinary citizens' fault but sadly it's the citizens that have to make an effort. Admittedly, it is very unfair.

P.S. A Household Charge is employed by many countries for decades, it's not something outrageous the Irish Government came up with out of nowhere. I think it's here to stay and people might as well get used to it. If you don't wanna - fine, rent housing. Harsh reality.

7upfree

fricatus wrote: »

Fine. Don't take my word for it. How about Ronan Lyons, an economist who's an expert in the area?

Or Bank of Ireland's 2006 report on where the nation's wealth is held.



Most of the wealth in this country is held in property, like I told you!

I'll leave Ronan with the last word:

Wat bunkum! So if you own a house which youve bought, paid for (and paid VAT on) you get punished. But if you live off the state and are given a home for free your not? And people actually agree with this bs?

The household tax is a property tax but the FG tools are frightened to call it that. 160000 council 'households' are exempt.

A 'property expert'. hmmmm. Their were loads of them around in the past few years. Not one to be quoting really.

7upfree

subz3r0 wrote: »

Thus the extra taxes.

Streets need to be kept and also the 'budget needs to be balanced'. The opportunity cost of not paying the Household Charge is that the budget deficit is even greater. If people pay the Household Charge then (in theory) the Government can spend the money saved on servicing the Budget Deficit.

So naieve. You really believe this? Your contribution is going to fund a hole caused by banking debt and an overpaid public sector. 'Streets need to be kept' Kept how?

7upfree

wellboytoo wrote: »

I'm by no means a socialist, but I support a property tax, one that everyone pays, whether you own or rent a property, you should pay it.
It is the most equitable form of taxation, but I don't think the present or any Government has the balls to bring it in as it should be to make it fair to all.
There is a crazy situation going on in the commercial rates area at the moment, where the rates are higher than the rent on a lot of buildings!! this is not sustainable , the load has to be shouldered by morwe of the population or the whole shaebang will seize up.
Waterford City Council rates arrears gone up to 6.3 million!

Im against a property tax and the false arguments for it. I look at my parents for example:

They pay to have the grass cut in their estate.

They will pay water rates.

The parks which they use are also used by Council tenants, who are not charged for the privilege.

They will pay a property tax to fund bad banking debt and public sector waste.

I don't think businesses should even pay rates, as their providing jobs.
Equally the burden shouldnt be on a homeowner. We're spending more than we're raising in taxes. do what any normal household would do - cut the spending. That is what has to happen. Wage reductions in the public sector across the board are inevitable.

7upfree

subz3r0 wrote: »

Thus the extra taxes.

Streets need to be kept and also the 'budget needs to be balanced'. The opportunity cost of not paying the Household Charge is that the budget deficit is even greater. If people pay the Household Charge then (in theory) the Government can spend the money saved on servicing the Budget Deficit.

No - the government will spend the money propping up public sector wages and social welfare - the two causes of the deficit in the first place.

spankmemunkey

Your all argueing over spilled milk,

Whats happened has happened. We didnt cause this problem its not our fault somebody else should pay etc etc, we heard all this before, but thats not going to fix the country, They need money its obvious and this is now your duty as an Irish citizen to pay it. We live in a relatively free society, These charges are fairly common in Europe water and household tax, If you want to keep complaining about how terrible things are and wallow then things will never get better if you want things to get better its going to take effort from everyone

S28382

spankmemunkey wrote: »

Your all argueing over spilled milk,

Whats happened has happened. We didnt cause this problem its not our fault somebody else should pay etc etc, we heard all this before, but thats not going to fix the country, They need money its obvious and this is now your duty as an Irish citizen to pay it. We live in a relatively free society, These charges are fairly common in Europe water and household tax, If you want to keep complaining about how terrible things are and wallow then things will never get better if you want things to get better its going to take effort from everyone

Well said spankmemunkey, There is too much negativity about the state of the country.... the place wont move forward if everybody is looking backwards

7upfree

S28382 wrote: »

Well said spankmemunkey, There is too much negativity about the state of the country.... the place wont move forward if everybody is looking backwards

So let's forget about:

The billions poured into banks.

The ridiculously high wages paid to PS workers.

The ludicrously generous social welfare system.

All of the above the cause of these "common taxes elsewhere".

FFS what planet are you on? Seriously?

spankmemunkey

Is remembering it going to bring the money back?

Is not paying going to help the economy improve?

Is not paying your household charge going to bring "those bankers" to accountability? NO

I love the way people are so defiant and righteous about all this and they dont know exactly what they are talking about, suddenly everybody is an economist and they know how to raise billions of euro's.

Accountability and trying to find out who caused all these problems and actually dealing with recovery are two different things.

At the moment we are really in the sh't and its very bleak we have to sort it out and raise funds just to for the daily running of the country.

All the other issues need to be sorted but we have to sort the deficit FIRST.


If we were to liken it to someones household, id rather get my household finances in order NOW, you can dither and say well whos to blame while the bills pile up around your neck and then youll end up like Greece!

arodabomb

7upfree wrote: »

A 'property expert'. hmmmm. Their were loads of them around in the past few years. Not one to be quoting really.

And here lies your ignorance. Instead of bothering to read up on him, you hear "property" and "expert" and denigrate the man. He is not a builder, property developer or similar. He is a fairly renowned (by Irish standards) economist who specialises in housing and property. Despite his young age, he is held in great esteem by the likes of daft.ie and other companies. He is most certainly "one to be quoting really"!

Hoffmans

Max Powers wrote: »

Im not surpised only 44.5% paid, people are disillusioned, highest unemployment rate in country, less disposable income than average, bailout etc.

On the other hand, the city badly needs to put its best foot forward in presenting itself, will the shortfall lead to reduction in street cleaning, keeping parks tidy, possible council lay-offs. Added to that, you have people who are more than capable of paying and have a stero-typical Irish attitude of i dont care about anyone outside my clan, to hell with the rest of society.

the figure for waterford people not registering would be nearer 60% , as most of the newer apartments around town are owned by out of towners.......

on the other hand, it may lead to less council junkets,cheese and wine receptions and throwing money into crazy projects like the "green route" lol...

Potential-Monke

As i said before, i will pay when they have a fair and affordable system. At the moment, i don't know what i'm registering for, so i'm registering until i know exactly what i will be paying for the next few years.

@7upfree: You are another person who is attacking the public service with what can only be called jealousy at this stage. I work in the public service. In the last few weeks i had to contact my credit union about lowering my repayments, and they have done, but i will be unable to apply for another loan for at least 4 years. I can only hope nothing major happens in my ownd home, of which i now live in by myself due to personal circumstances. I'm paying a comparibly small mortgage, and i'm left with €20 a week to feed myself and put petrol in the car.

Yes, it's my fault that i over-borrowed in the good days, but when i borrowed i was well able to pay everything back and had enough left over to save. Since then, my wages have been slashed by €120 a week and i've already gone through my savings. I feel like i am doing my bit, and any more been taken from me will result in me handing back the keys to the bank and renting, making me even more of a burden as the bank will be down €160000 which you, the tax-payer, will end up paying off for them. All this while having to work longer hours, doing the job of 2 and there being no motivation anymore. I've done my bit, go after someone else that's paid in 1 year what takes me 5 years to even come close to. Not everyone in the Public Sector (especially the bottom 2 "ranks") get all these lovely extras the public so lovingly go on about.

Sorry about the off-topic.

deise blue

7upfree wrote: »

So let's forget about:

The billions poured into banks.

The ridiculously high wages paid to PS workers.

The ludicrously generous social welfare system.

All of the above the cause of these "common taxes elsewhere".

FFS what planet are you on? Seriously?

PS workers have suffered pay cuts averaging 15 % , the Croke Park Agreement is also delivering quantifiable savings as verified by an Independent body & most importantly ensures that the country is not brought to it's knees by industrial relations mayhem - Brendan Howlin referred to this scenario as " Armegeddon " & of course as another poster has pointed out the vast majority of PS workers are not on " ludicrously " high salaries.

I have no doubt that when the current Agreement expires at the end of next year that another agreement will be entered into which again will prove difficult & challenging.

It would appear to me that given the high cost of living that Social Welfare is pitched at the correct level currently - the main focus should be to ensure that the system is not abused.

Max Powers

deise blue wrote: »

PS workers have suffered pay cuts averaging 15 % , the Croke Park Agreement is also delivering quantifiable savings as verified by an Independent body & most importantly ensures that the country is not brought to it's knees by industrial relations mayhem - Brendan Howlin referred to this scenario as " Armegeddon " & of course as another poster has pointed out the vast majority of PS workers are not on " ludicrously " high salaries.

I have no doubt that when the current Agreement expires at the end of next year that another agreement will be entered into which again will prove difficult & challenging.

It would appear to me that given the high cost of living that Social Welfare is pitched at the correct level currently - the main focus should be to ensure that the system is not abused.

This thread iI thought is about Waterford's job crisis I thought not lies about public service being hardest hit

deise blue

Max Powers wrote: »

This thread iI thought is about Waterford's job crisis I thought not lies about public service being hardest hit

Wrong - the thread is about non payment of the household charge.

However another poster broadened the issue by commenting on PS pay & Social welfare.

My post was merely a riposte to same , I challenge you to point out in my post where I stated that the PS was hardest hit - that would be an absurdity.

What I did post were verifiable facts about pay cuts suffered by the PS & my views on why the CPA is currently the only game in town.

It would also be interesting to see your views as to what " lies " were propounded ?

chainsawman

Never, Never, Never.....:D

Max Powers

deise blue wrote: »

Wrong - the thread is about non payment of the household charge.

However another poster broadened the issue by commenting on PS pay & Social welfare.

My post was merely a riposte to same , I challenge you to point out in my post where I stated that the PS was hardest hit - that would be an absurdity.

What I did post were verifiable facts about pay cuts suffered by the PS & my views on why the CPA is currently the only game in town.

It would also be interesting to see your views as to what " lies " were propounded ?

Deiseblue, My bad on gettin threads mixed up.

• On public sector pay, im tired of hearing people in the public sector whinging (BTW i have 6 months left on a contract with the public sector) saying that their wages have been cut when private sector wages are lower and have most likely been cut more
• Public sector enjoy a hgh degree of job security
• Av public sector wages are higher
• Public pensions are so good they couldnt be bought in the private sector
• Higher than average holidays
• About 300% more sick leave on average
• Little known fact that as part of our bailout, approx 3bn was used to shore up public pensions
• The public sector outrage at proposed cutting of some of these fringe benefits is shameful
• Public sector incremental increases in this finanical environment.
• CSO figures published recently:
  the average hourly earnings in the private sector decreased from €19.76/hour to €19.48/hour between Q4 2010 and Q4 2011 - a reduction of 1.4%.Meanwhile, the average hourly earnings in the public sector increased from €28.50/hour to €28.64/hour, - an increase of 0.2% in the same period.

To say that Croke Park is working (only game in town) is like saying that the lad bucketing water off the side of the titanic really saved our bacon. The unions and staff need to cop on to themselves, admit that they are in general better off than private sector and realise the dire situation the country is in. getting back to a balanced budget is the most sensible way for the country to start gaining some independence. The public sector whinging is not showing the whole picture and is tantamount to lies

7upfree

Reality check for those in the public sector: your employer is bankrupt. In the private sector, there would have been mass redundancies, pay cuts, and changes in work practices. In order to protect the remaining jobs and pay levels.

The government has said on numerous occasions that the deficit is caused by the combined Public Sector and social Welfare cost.

The actual reality is that you cannot spend more than you earn. Yet we hear PS unions spouting about "over our dead bodies" etc.

The level of wages being paid are completely unsustainable. The level of jobs being provided is completely unsustainable.

Hard decisions are on the are of being taken in regards to this.

I have the greatest of sympathy for people affected by it. But you cannot stem the tide of economic reality.

The country is broke.

The country is borrowing hugely to keep PS workers rates and conditions at completely unrealistic levels relative to the economic situation on the ground.

You can be indignant all you like. This is, sadly, the harsh reality of it all.

spankmemunkey

Going slightly off topic but in relation to what another poster was talking about above, Social Welfare Payments.

I heard that when the Ulster Bank problem started people started talking about Social Welfare payments not going through on time.

Social Welfare payments still getting payed into bank accounts?? This has fraud written all over it as you dont have to be in the country to draw money from a bank account, you had to go to the post office to collect it last i heard?

Why are the government leaving themselves so open to fraud?

deise blue

Max Powers wrote: »

Deiseblue, My bad on gettin threads mixed up.

• On public sector pay, im tired of hearing people in the public sector whinging (BTW i have 6 months left on a contract with the public sector) saying that their wages have been cut when private sector wages are lower and have most likely been cut more
• Public sector enjoy a hgh degree of job security
• Av public sector wages are higher
• Public pensions are so good they couldnt be bought in the private sector
• Higher than average holidays
• About 300% more sick leave on average
• Little known fact that as part of our bailout, approx 3bn was used to shore up public pensions
• The public sector outrage at proposed cutting of some of these fringe benefits is shameful
• Public sector incremental increases in this finanical environment.
• CSO figures published recently:
  the average hourly earnings in the private sector decreased from €19.76/hour to €19.48/hour between Q4 2010 and Q4 2011 - a reduction of 1.4%.Meanwhile, the average hourly earnings in the public sector increased from €28.50/hour to €28.64/hour, - an increase of 0.2% in the same period.

To say that Croke Park is working (only game in town) is like saying that the lad bucketing water off the side of the titanic really saved our bacon. The unions and staff need to cop on to themselves, admit that they are in general better off than private sector and realise the dire situation the country is in. getting back to a balanced budget is the most sensible way for the country to start gaining some independence. The public sector whinging is not showing the whole picture and is tantamount to lies

I note your comment that you got the threads mixed up.

however , you failed to respond to the substantive elements in my last post.

You accused me of propagating lies about PS employment - the points I made were that the average pay cut was 15 % & that the Croke Park Agreement was currently the only game in town - both statements are factually correct.

I further asked you to point out where I had stated that PS workers were the hardest hit - no response !

There is absolutely no doubt that PS workers have suffered less than those who have been made redundant & less than those who have suffered pay cuts in excess of 15 % - it should be pointed out that according to the last known poll by the Irish Times in 2009 70% of Private Sector workers have not had their pay cut .

Being Private Sector myself I received a 3.5% increase being the first tranche payable under the National Wage Agreement towards 2016 & expect a further consumer price index linked increase shortly.

It appears clear to me that PS workers have suffered less than some & more than others - swings & roundabouts I suppose.

It appears to me that the current Government is more or less in accord with this viewpoint & are determined to honour the CPA .

The CSO have consistently pointed out that they cannot equably compare Public Sector & Private Sector incomes as it is impossible to quantify " like for like " occupations , they have also pointed out that Public Sector employees are likely to be older & are more likely to have 3rd degree qualifications & there are less menial jobs ( a terrible description I know ) in the Public Sector.

it should also be poined out that PS workers employed pre 1995 will not receive the OAP , if for example if I were to switch from my current DB pension scheme ( I can also claim the OAP in due course) to a PS type pension I would lose euro 12,000 per annum - & yes I know I'm lucky to avail of such a scheme.

In the overall scheme of things I believe that the Public Sector employees have made a substantial sacrifice in terms of aiding our putative recovery & should not suffer further pay cuts & I further believe that the CPA is our best bet in order to achive savings & reform & to avoid industrial warfare.

Max Powers

Public workers complaining about cuts of 15 % is as i said tantamount to lies, it looks bad yes but not as bad as the rest of the labour force. It reminds me of a TD saying he has his pay cut by 10% yet his expenses and other payments are there. Added to that to say CPA is only game in town is untrue, the other game is to say what cuts are to be made and make the cuts that need to be made (in the fairest manner possible).

The CPA is there now and it doesnt look like the government (especially with Labour in it) will start making the changes necessary until it runs out, if that is what you mean by only game around then you are probably right there.

Re: the CSO comparisons, they were happy to make comparions in the good times when looking for wage increases.

deise blue

Max Powers wrote: »

Public workers complaining about cuts of 15 % is as i said tantamount to lies, it looks bad yes but not as bad as the rest of the labour force. It reminds me of a TD saying he has his pay cut by 10% yet his expenses and other payments are there. Added to that to say CPA is only game in town is untrue, the other game is to say what cuts are to be made and make the cuts that need to be made (in the fairest manner possible).

The CPA is there now and it doesnt look like the government (especially with Labour in it) will start making the changes necessary until it runs out, if that is what you mean by only game around then you are probably right there.

Re: the CSO comparisons, they were happy to make comparions in the good times when looking for wage increases.

Of course I'm right - there is no probably about it, the CPA is the only game in town & has been since it's inception in 2010.

What you would like to see happen in terms of cuts is merely posturing combined with wishful thinking.

The other fact is that PS workers have suffered pay cuts averaging 15% - if you care to dispute this - kindly provide facts , as I have already pointed out 70% of those employed in the Private Sector have taken no pay cut indeed many have seen their pay increase including myself.

In terms of wage increases ( outside the ambit of national wage agreements ) these were calculated by an independent benchmarking body .

I simply cannot understand why people want to see further pay cuts imposed on PS employees rather than see the savings made by the CPA.

Max Powers

deise blue wrote: »

Of course I'm right - there is no probably about it, the CPA is the only game in town & has been since it's inception in 2010.

What you would like to see happen in terms of cuts is merely posturing combined with wishful thinking.

The other fact is that PS workers have suffered pay cuts averaging 15% - if you care to dispute this - kindly provide facts , as I have already pointed out 70% of those employed in the Private Sector have taken no pay cut indeed many have seen their pay increase including myself.

In terms of wage increases ( outside the ambit of national wage agreements ) these were calculated by an independent benchmarking body .

I simply cannot understand why people want to see further pay cuts imposed on PS employees rather than see the savings made by the CPA.

Steady on there deiseblue,
CPA is not delivering the required cuts in its current format, is open to criticism and needs to be re-visited ASAP if you think us balancing the books soon is important.

Stating that the public sector have taken 15% cuts and not representing the cuts taken by the private sector is misleading or posturing as you say. I have provided many facts there in a previous post including one from the CSO re: public pay going up and private going down. BTW shouldnt that 70% say 70% of private sector have taken cuts. I would be fairly sure >70% have taken cuts, maybe 70% no cuts back in around 2009

'benchmarking independent body':eek:......

I suppose the main reasons people including most independent (non political or union affliated economists) say the public sector needs to cut wages is
1. the over inflated wages which the stats have proven and
2. the cuts happening at the moment are not sufficent for us to balance the books, hoping the private sector will pick up the slack is something to hope for but cant be depended on in this uncertain time
3. no pay cuts will have to be made up for in layoffs or more taxes. More taxes (and layoffs) will stifle the economy even more.

Potential-Monke

7upfree wrote: »

Reality check for those in the public sector: your employer is bankrupt. In the private sector, there would have been mass redundancies, pay cuts, and changes in work practices. In order to protect the remaining jobs and pay levels.

Reality check: There has been redundancies (Link). Pay has been cut, but not in the normal way. I have got an increment each year from 2008 in line with the contract i signed in 2007, however my wages have not gone up. Everything i get is taken the same year in yet another tax. Plus there is changes, people in the HSE are doing the jobs of 2 or 3 people, there is a new rota in the Gardai and mass station closures.

The government has said on numerous occasions that the deficit is caused by the combined Public Sector and social Welfare cost.

The actual reality is that you cannot spend more than you earn. Yet we hear PS unions spouting about "over our dead bodies" etc.

That is obvious, but the majority of front-line essential services are being badly affected, which is resulting in a worse service when they are most needed. Just think about it, some day you might need an Ambulance, the Fire Service or Gardai and because of what is going on in the PS you could be waiting...

The level of wages being paid are completely unsustainable. The level of jobs being provided is completely unsustainable.

Wages are not all that great for the frontline staff. Higher managerial, yes, frontline, no. Maxpower quoted that the average PS wage is €23ph or something like that. I can guarantee the majority of frontline don't earn that, with the exception of those who maybe have 25-30+ years of service to the PS. I'm in the PS 6 years and earn less than the average private sector wage that max quoted.

Hard decisions are on the are of being taken in regards to this.

I have the greatest of sympathy for people affected by it. But you cannot stem the tide of economic reality.

The country is broke.

The country is borrowing hugely to keep PS workers rates and conditions at completely unrealistic levels relative to the economic situation on the ground.

You can be indignant all you like. This is, sadly, the harsh reality of it all.

I agree that hard decisions are being taken, but the frontline PS workers have taken the biggest hit within the PS. Go after the rest all you want, some of them are on stupid wages (for example, a Chief Superintendent in the Gardai is on wage of €185000 per year!), go after their wages.

But taking anymore from the frontline, who already have greatly reduced numbers thanks to mass retirements, will only result in Joe Public suffering. Reduce wages = reduced motivation, regardless what anyone says.

7upfree

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Reality check: There has been redundancies (Link). Pay has been cut, but not in the normal way. I have got an increment each year from 2008 in line with the contract i signed in 2007, however my wages have not gone up. Everything i get is taken the same year in yet another tax. Plus there is changes, people in the HSE are doing the jobs of 2 or 3 people, there is a new rota in the Gardai and mass station closures.



That is obvious, but the majority of front-line essential services are being badly affected, which is resulting in a worse service when they are most needed. Just think about it, some day you might need an Ambulance, the Fire Service or Gardai and because of what is going on in the PS you could be waiting...



Wages are not all that great for the frontline staff. Higher managerial, yes, frontline, no. Maxpower quoted that the average PS wage is €23ph or something like that. I can guarantee the majority of frontline don't earn that, with the exception of those who maybe have 25-30+ years of service to the PS. I'm in the PS 6 years and earn less than the average private sector wage that max quoted.



I agree that hard decisions are being taken, but the frontline PS workers have taken the biggest hit within the PS. Go after the rest all you want, some of them are on stupid wages (for example, a Chief Superintendent in the Gardai is on wage of €185000 per year!), go after their wages.

But taking anymore from the frontline, who already have greatly reduced numbers thanks to mass retirements, will only result in Joe Public suffering. Reduce wages = reduced motivation, regardless what anyone says.

You still don't get it. The employer is bankrupt. There is not enough money available to meet wages and commitments. Redundancies and paycuts are inevitable. This is the real economic situation - not the one imagined by PS unions.

Motivation is irrelevant. Ask any private sector worker. You are either conscientious at your job or not.

I take your point about the Garda superintendent. But the PS is nuts. Only yesterday I found out about someone retiring on a full pension - at 51. While the majority of rest of the populace must wait until they are 67.

Those outside the Public sector look on in astonishment and incredulity at the Utopian ideals of both the Public sector and the civil servants who run it. It is truly nuts and completely out of touch with reality.

We are sending civil servants to Europe to plead a begging case.....to civil servants who earn considerably less than they do......in order to support and perpetuate that difference. I think Europe have copped onto that one at last.

7upfree

Max Powers wrote: »

Steady on there deiseblue,
CPA is not delivering the required cuts in its current format, is open to criticism and needs to be re-visited ASAP if you think us balancing the books soon is important.

Stating that the public sector have taken 15% cuts and not representing the cuts taken by the private sector is misleading or posturing as you say. I have provided many facts there in a previous post including one from the CSO re: public pay going up and private going down. BTW shouldnt that 70% say 70% of private sector have taken cuts. I would be fairly sure >70% have taken cuts, maybe 70% no cuts back in around 2009

'benchmarking independent body':eek:......

I suppose the main reasons people including most independent (non political or union affliated economists) say the public sector needs to cut wages is
1. the over inflated wages which the stats have proven and
2. the cuts happening at the moment are not sufficent for us to balance the books, hoping the private sector will pick up the slack is something to hope for but cant be depended on in this uncertain time
3. no pay cuts will have to be made up for in layoffs or more taxes. More taxes (and layoffs) will stifle the economy even more.

I agree Max. "independent body".....yeah.

As you say, the beleaguered private sector worker cannot continue to prop up this complete and utter sham.

deise blue

People refer to the harsh realitys & advocate further cuts to PS pay , terms & conditions.

This is not reality.

The reality is that the Croke Park Agreement is in place until the end of 2013 , people have always maintained that this Agreement would not survive the IMF intervention - the reality is that it has since it's inception in 2010 it has survived - only 18 months to go !

The second reality is that Labour who definitely support the Agreement form a major rump of the current Government & equally , albeit , somewhat reluctantly FG have stated that they will honour the terms of the CPA which incidentally has achieved it's targets as verified by an independent review & ratified by the IMF.

It should also not be forgotten that the Government are terrified that the the Unions have the capacity to bring the country to a standstill if they decide to end the CPA.

This is the current reality - everything else is mere speculation/wishful thinking.

The last poll in 2009 reflected the situation that 70% of Private Sector workers had not taken a pay cut , indeed quite a few , like myself , have received increases - you may choose to disagree with these findings but the reality is that you have no substantive facts to support your view.

Max Powers

deise blue wrote: »

The last poll in 2009 reflected the situation that 70% of Private Sector workers had not taken a pay cut , indeed quite a few , like myself , have received increases - you may choose to disagree with these findings but the reality is that you have no substantive facts to support your view.

As i guessed, 2009, a long time ago now in terms of the finianical crisis. Id say you can reverse those figures now even if it doesnt take into account private sector lay offs and redundancies. I have provided many facts in previous post, here is a reminder of just 1 which I think neatly indicates the differences between public and private pay you seem happy to ignore. BTW, these are figures from late 2011. Im afraid this is the reality
CSO figures published recently:
the average hourly earnings in the private sector decreased from €19.76/hour to €19.48/hour between Q4 2010 and Q4 2011 - a reduction of 1.4%.Meanwhile, the average hourly earnings in the public sector increased from €28.50/hour to €28.64/hour, - an increase of 0.2% in the same period.

deise blue

Max Powers wrote: »

As i guessed, 2009, a long time ago now in terms of the finianical crisis. Id say you can reverse those figures now even if it doesnt take into account private sector lay offs and redundancies. I have provided many facts in previous post, here is a reminder of just 1 which I think neatly indicates the differences between public and private pay you seem happy to ignore. BTW, these are figures from late 2011. Im afraid this is the reality
CSO figures published recently:
the average hourly earnings in the private sector decreased from €19.76/hour to €19.48/hour between Q4 2010 and Q4 2011 - a reduction of 1.4%.Meanwhile, the average hourly earnings in the public sector increased from €28.50/hour to €28.64/hour, - an increase of 0.2% in the same period.

The problem is - you are guessing , the most up to date poll shows that 70% of those employed in the Private Sector have not taken pay cuts , some have indeed received increases - unfortunately your personal view that this figure has changed dramatically cuts no ice - you have no substantive facts to prove your view.

The CSO figures may show the slightest of increases in average PS earnings which in all probability is down to the payment of contracted increments ( protected by the CPA ) however those figures also reflect the average 15% pay cut suffered in previous years.

The CSO has consistently stated that it is impossible to compare Private Sector & Public Sector pay due to many variables.
1. It has proved impossible to provide " like for like " jobs across both sectors for comparison purposes.
2. Employees on average across the Public Sector tend to be older than those in the Private Sector
3. Public Sector employees on average hold appreciably more 3rd level degrees than the average Private Sector worker
4. There are less menial type jobs in the Public Sector.
5. There are far less part time jobs/job sharing in the Public Sector.

The argument in any event , to my mind , is moot - the current Government seems determined to honour the CPA which as I have constantly pointed out has met it's targets as verified by the independent review body & ratified by the IMF.

It will be interesting to see what happens after the current Agreement expires - CPA 2 perhaps ?

This discussion will probably have more relevance at that juncture but at present the CPA is the only game in town that will provide savings & reform without cutting pay & probably provoking massive industrial unrest.

Max Powers

deise blue wrote: »

The problem is - you are guessing , the most up to date poll shows that 70% of those employed in the Private Sector have not taken pay cuts , some have indeed received increases - unfortunately your personal view that this figure has changed dramatically cuts no ice - you have no substantive facts to prove your view.

The CSO figures may show the slightest of increases in average PS earnings which in all probability is down to the payment of contracted increments ( protected by the CPA ) however those figures also reflect the average 15% pay cut suffered in previous years.

The CSO has consistently stated that it is impossible to compare Private Sector & Public Sector pay due to many variables.
1. It has proved impossible to provide " like for like " jobs across both sectors for comparison purposes.
2. Employees on average across the Public Sector tend to be older than those in the Private Sector
3. Public Sector employees on average hold appreciably more 3rd level degrees than the average Private Sector worker
4. There are less menial type jobs in the Public Sector.
5. There are far less part time jobs/job sharing in the Public Sector.

The argument in any event , to my mind , is moot - the current Government seems determined to honour the CPA which as I have constantly pointed out has met it's targets as verified by the independent review body & ratified by the IMF.

It will be interesting to see what happens after the current Agreement expires - CPA 2 perhaps ?

This discussion will probably have more relevance at that juncture but at present the CPA is the only game in town that will provide savings & reform without cutting pay & probably provoking massive industrial unrest.

CSO figures published recently:
the average hourly earnings in the private sector decreased from €19.76/hour to €19.48/hour between Q4 2010 and Q4 2011 - a reduction of 1.4%.Meanwhile, the average hourly earnings in the public sector increased from €28.50/hour to €28.64/hour, - an increase of 0.2% in the same period. Those figures cut a lot of ice with most people and is the 'reality' of here and now not 2009

These figures arent guess work, nor are they rehashed public union attempts at justifying excessive salaries.The above figures from CSO are more accurate and relevant than any figures or lack of that you have made to compare private and public. The points you made about 3rd level degrees etc simply are irrelevant when you consider this: we pay for the public sector and we cant afford it in its present state anymore.
The 70% figure is clutching at straws and certainly not most up to date data when you quote 3+ year old data.

It boils down to, do you think public pay is excessive in this economic time?
Do you think it should be cut and why?

I would answer yes to the the first 1 as all the latest stats show the great disparagy between the 2 sectors meaning there is more room in the public sector for cuts.

Yes to the 2nd one also for a number of reasons:

• we simply cant afford the excessive wages
• we arent getting the return in efficient delivery of services
• the pay gap between the 2 sectors
• increasing taxes will kill the economy more

Note: anyone getting pay increases in private sector are the minority as you know and any of these increases are made on being an effective and efficient money generating organisation, not on the back of a overburdened tax payer. Not to say that a lot of Public workers dont work hard but private sector wages (overinflated or not) arent a burden on a bailed out country

deise blue

We are going around in circles - the CSO themselves have stated that it is impossible to compare Public & Private sector earnings for the very reasons outlined in my previous post.

The reality is & you have basically agreed with me in a previous post - the Croke Park Agreement is currently the only recognised functioning method of delivering savings ( from memory I believe you said that it will in all probability see out it's tenure )

All arguments therefore are pretty moot until such time as negotiations with PS employees via their Unions resume sometime towards the end of 2013 ( I would imagine )

I look forward to resuming our discussion then when at least it will have some relevance & who knows further figures may come to light regarding the percentage of those in Private Sector employment who have suffered pay cuts but I would imagine that the figure hasn't dramatically changed.

Max Powers

deise blue wrote: »

We are going around in circles - the CSO themselves have stated that it is impossible to compare Public & Private sector earnings for the very reasons outlined in my previous post.

The reality is & you have basically agreed with me in a previous post - the Croke Park Agreement is currently the only recognised functioning method of delivering savings ( from memory I believe you said that it will in all probability see out it's tenure )

All arguments therefore are pretty moot until such time as negotiations with PS employees via their Unions resume sometime towards the end of 2013 ( I would imagine )

I look forward to resuming our discussion then when at least it will have some relevance & who knows further figures may come to light regarding the percentage of those in Private Sector employment who have suffered pay cuts but I would imagine that the figure hasn't dramatically changed.

Yep, your right there desie blue, it probably will but it is not the only option or 'game in town' , there is a better way talked about by a few TDs and impartial economists:
1. Identify who has the ability to pay
2. make them pay more taxes or pay them less

whether one thinks that the public service judging on latest pay amounts has the ability to pay compared to others is the question we will have to ask now, months ago or at end of CPA. I myself, prefer action now, im guessing Deiseblue, you would like to see CPA honoured, i reckon we are at loggerheads there.