What have the cuts meant to your school?

bdoo

Loads of talk of cuts but what have they meant to your school?

for Sept 2012

500 pupil VEC DEIS.

-2 x fulltime sna's
-1 x wte teacher due to lcvp ptr change
-1 x wte teacher due to guidance cut
-1 x wte teacher due to cut in resource hours

No dcg class next year

Physics and chemistry gone to a year on year off basis.

Transition year numbers will be capped from next year.

music in danger for next year also.

Question over the continuation of a second European language.

school is in a growth phase so no teacher has lost a job but several will have hours cut.

Not good. Very hard to deliver a service with changes like this.


solutions?

we could continue to offer subjects if we were allowed to shorten the school week from 28 hours which is a big deal with the dept.

Merge CSPE and SPHE

Any other Ideas?

rainbowtrout

what's happened to your classes sizes??

We've lost two teachers. One redeployed and other gone completely.

Most classes will be 30+ in my school next year. Particularly for core English and Irish. We've managed to hang on to all our subjects just about, physics 5th and 6th will be in together. Only one business subject offered to 5th years. Science is particularly strong in my school so we're offering all four sciences next year. No TY though.
We went to 28 hours 2 years ago so we can't cut any further there.

Hard to know what the solution is? Offer Physics with Chemistry combined subject to keep the subjects on the timetable in some shape or form?

When we cut to 28 hours, we changed the timetable from 9 x 40 min classes Mon- Fri to 10 x 35 Mon- Wed and 9 x 35 Thurs/Fri. So less time but more class periods overall. Meant we could keep all our subjects. It also means a teacher on full hours has at least one extra class group, sometimes two depending on the subject and if it's JC/LC in the same number of hours. 35 mins are tough though, the 5 minutes extra in the 40 min class made all the difference often for getting stuff done. Practicals are a pain when 10 mins is cut off the double class.

Also to keep subject choice, number of class periods given to some subjects for JC was reduced, say from 4 to 3, or in some cases 3 to 2.

gaeilgebeo

Similar size school to yours Bdoo.
VEC DEIS school too.
We are losing :

• 1 teacher due to resource/language support cuts.
• 1 teacher due to increase in PTR.
• 1 teacher due to guidance teacher and full-time resource teacher going (partly) mainstream.
• 1 full-time SNA.
• Any part-time teachers remaining are having a cut in hours, which were already cut last year.

• We no longer offer music/physics as a leaving cert option.
• This will be the last year we will offer both TY and LCA. One will have to go.
• 2 of our teachers will now be working between 2 schools in the county. There hours will be split, ie, .3 in one school, .7 in another.

This has been the worst year in our schools history for cutbacks and the last month in school was awful. Our principal said there was nothing she could do and our CEO has warned that things are set to get worse in the next few years.

therunaround

On top of the above were losing a couple of year heads. Already went through a year with no first year year head and it's disastrous on discipline too much pressure on the vice. I heard of a school here in da midlands where 8 snAs were cut it seems u can only get an smabnow if it's a physical disability. The chickens are coming home to roost now re cuts, people get what they wish for

gaeilgebeo

rainbowtrout wrote: »

what's happened to your classes sizes??

We've lost two teachers. One redeployed and other gone completely.

Most classes will be 30+ in my school next year. Particularly for core English and Irish. We've managed to hang on to all our subjects just about, physics 5th and 6th will be in together. Only one business subject offered to 5th years. Science is particularly strong in my school so we're offering all four sciences next year. No TY though.
We went to 28 hours 2 years ago so we can't cut any further there.

Hard to know what the solution is? Offer Physics with Chemistry combined subject to keep the subjects on the timetable in some shape or form?

When we cut to 28 hours, we changed the timetable from 9 x 40 min classes Mon- Fri to 10 x 35 Mon- Wed and 9 x 35 Thurs/Fri. So less time but more class periods overall. Meant we could keep all our subjects. It also means a teacher on full hours has at least one extra class group, sometimes two depending on the subject and if it's JC/LC in the same number of hours. 35 mins are tough though, the 5 minutes extra in the 40 min class made all the difference often for getting stuff done. Practicals are a pain when 10 mins is cut off the double class.

Also to keep subject choice, number of class periods given to some subjects for JC was reduced, say from 4 to 3, or in some cases 3 to 2.

That is terrible. :eek: I really hope the DES don't go down this road.

rainbowtrout

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

That is terrible. :eek: I really hope the DES don't go down this road.

We're doing it to hang onto the subject. It plays havoc with the timetable cos the block the 5th physics is on has to be timetabled against the 6th physics block, so 8 classes (well 7 as physics is combined) will have to run concurrently. Aside from being tough for the students and teacher it can make timetabling a nightmare if say physics, chemistry, and 2 ag science classes end up on at the same time as well as some JC science and not enough labs for everyone. Has happened before.

We have 60-65 students going into 3rd year. Small enough year for us. There will only be 2 Irish classes in third year :eek: Again this will have a knock on effect on discipline. If more cuts come down the line next year it will be subjects, because we have nothing more to give size wise.

You've had some pretty savage cuts in your school gaeilgebeo.

gaeilgebeo

rainbowtrout wrote: »

We're doing it to hang onto the subject. It plays havoc with the timetable cos the block the 5th physics is on has to be timetabled against the 6th physics block, so 8 classes (well 7 as physics is combined) will have to run concurrently. Aside from being tough for the students and teacher it can make timetabling a nightmare if say physics, chemistry, and 2 ag science classes end up on at the same time as well as some JC science and not enough labs for everyone. Has happened before.

We have 60-65 students going into 3rd year. Small enough year for us. There will only be 2 Irish classes in third year :eek: Again this will have a knock on effect on discipline. If more cuts come down the line next year it will be subjects, because we have nothing more to give size wise.

I just think the focus and demands of 5th years and 6th years are a million miles apart. I really feel for the teachers.
Two Irish classes with 65 students? :eek: How will that be split into the 3 levels needed? Do JCSP students even get a look in?

rainbowtrout

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

I just think the focus and demands of 5th years and 6th years are a million miles apart. I really feel for the teachers.
Two Irish classes with 65 students? :eek: How will that be split into the 3 levels needed? Do JCSP students even get a look in?

Have no idea - I imagine one class will be honours with some of the stronger ordinary level students and the other will be the weaker ordinary level/foundation. Don't have JCSP, that's not to say we don't have students who could do with it.

Combining year groups is common enough in small schools with less than 150 students. Not ideal, but in schools like that necessary to offer any kind of a subject choice. Not advocating it, but for some subjects it is 'doable' as sections of the course are stand alone and don't need the prior knowledge of a different section of the course. Physics would lend itself to this, not that I envy the physics teacher for a minute for her class next year. Can learn mechanics without knowing anything about electricity etc. Perhaps not so good for other subjects where you build up a foundation before you go on to the advanced stuff.

Will music/physics be dropped permanently in your school or will it be on a year to year basis and the subject with the lowest numbers gets the chop in any given year? Can't imagine music will survive for long at JC level if there is no follow on either.

With the way things are going, subject combinations like French/Biology/Geography/Business are going to become quite common for LC as schools lose their minority subjects and students have less choice. So much for encouraging students into science and technology.

bdoo

Class sizes are at 30 since last year. next year we will have 100 or so in first to fifth 30 in Ty and 70ish in 6th year.

we have a 4 way split in maths / eng / Irish try to keep foundation class small. We have jcsp which had a stand alone maths and English class plus two extra periods they will still have two extra but will be in mainstream for the rest.

the more i think the more i remember. classes are teeming.
Practical classes are jammed with kids doing subjects they dont want as choice is limited now because we can justify running a small class.

rainbowtrout

Physical space is actually going to become an issue for us. Have plenty of classrooms but school was only built 10 years ago, so quite a number of the classrooms were only built to accommodate 24 students max and even at that some of them are a bit crowded. One or two classrooms are even full with 20 students in them. As large numbers become commonplace it's going to be interesting fitting the kids in.

bdoo

It's a fair headache for the principal. Ours only found out today that the two SNA's had to go. One of them started with me 8 years ago - Imagine having to deliver that news or worse imagine having to receive it.

Another thing for us will be LCVP, it's great for the kids as the can get so many points for it but we might have to look at capping it at 50% of a year group. Maybe the extra points for HL maths might take the pressure off there and accommodate some of them.

If we our numbers were static or falling we would have lost people this year - we are very lucky. Our bus routes are under pressure now too with CIE playing havoc with our catchment area which could see our numbers fall over the coming years.

There are no good news stories.

bdoo

therunaround wrote: »

On top of the above were losing a couple of year heads. Already went through a year with no first year year head and it's disastrous on discipline too much pressure on the vice. I heard of a school here in da midlands where 8 snAs were cut it seems u can only get an smabnow if it's a physical disability. The chickens are coming home to roost now re cuts, people get what they wish for

Who wished for the cuts?

spurious

bdoo wrote: »

Who wished for the cuts?

Blloody over funded education sector.
Teachers and their holidays.
I had a teacher who read the paper all day.
Kill Frankenstein.

Visit AH some time and see what 'a certain sector' think of public services.

Feeona

spurious wrote: »

Visit AH some time and see what 'a certain sector' think of public services.

It's always the same few people though. And funnily enough, they don't see the hypocrisy in taking many hours out of their working day to complain about the ineptitude of the public sector!

Some awful cuts on this thread. I can just imagine someone sitting in their office with a pen poised over a paper, cutting swathes of numbers, jobs etc. The end result is something as basic as trying to fit 25-30 people into a room designed for 24. It seems we always have to put the student first in education unless the classroom is too small. Then you 'just have to work around it' despite the obvious health and safety issues of an over crowded classroom.

This 'make do with what you have' trait of the DES is a downright insult to those students who are the future of this country, and it's an unnecessary added pressure for teaching staff who need to be on top form to guide these students.

puffishoes

bdoo wrote: »

Any other Ideas?

Yes,

Remove subjects like Religion/music/language's from the daily curricular.

shorten the overall day and remove the summer break.

Music/lanagues/religion etc should be optional and bring in part time teachers for after normal hours to teach these as I imagine the numbers will be pretty low.

This should save enough to bring back in anything _important_ you lost.

gaeilgebeo

puffishoes wrote: »

Yes,

Remove subjects like Religion/music/language's from the daily curricular.

shorten the overall day and remove the summer break.

Music/lanagues/religion etc should be optional and bring in part time teachers for after normal hours to teach these as I imagine the numbers will be pretty low.

This should save enough to bring back in anything _important_ you lost.

Great suggestions there, as always Puffishoes. :rolleyes:

puffishoes

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

Great suggestions there, as always Puffishoes. :rolleyes:

Thank you.

Maybe you can take each point and explain exactly what is wrong with the suggestion instead of making a snarky remark with your rolling eyes?

I won't hold my breath.

doc_17

We've lost a wte due to the guidance cut but hopefully we won't lose anybody and the cut might be spread around the PT teachers and everyone can keep their job.

In terms of subject choice we're cutting it thin but did manage to hold on to all those we had. If I were in charge though I would lose LCVP before I ever went near subjects like Music, Chemistry, Physics etc.

rainbowtrout

puffishoes wrote: »

Thank you.

Maybe you can take each point and explain exactly what is wrong with the suggestion instead of making a snarky remark with your rolling eyes?

I won't hold my breath.

Maybe you could explain why you think music/languages and religion should all be cut and be optional.

In most schools that offer music, it is optional anyway, I've never heard of compulsory music anywhere.

Non-exam religion I'd have no problem in cutting, if schools are offering it as exam subject well that's their choice.

I have no idea why you would want to cut languages.

gaeilgebeo

puffishoes wrote: »

Yes,

Remove subjects like Religion/music/language's from the daily curricular.
Religion and music are not on the "daily" curriculum.:rolleyes:
With the exception of Irish, foreign languages are choice subjects and also an entry requirement for most third level courses.

shorten the overall day and remove the summer break.
6 of one, half dozen of the other?
Can you explain how this would save money, particularly the running costs of a school?

Music/lanagues/religion etc should be optional and bring in part time teachers for after normal hours to teach these as I imagine the numbers will be pretty low.
Do you expect these teachers to do so for free? Who will pay them to do the required number of classes per week, after hours, to cover a syllabus? Do you actually believe this will save money?

This should save enough to bring back in anything _important_ you lost.

No it would not, as I've outlined above.

doc_17

Remove the summer break? Hmmmm aside from the fact that it is a stupid idea, the country couldn't afford it anyway!

spurious

Combine the numbers of small second level schools into one per thousand kids, properly equipped, offering all subjects at all levels to all comers.

There are some small towns and suburbs in Ireland with up to four second level schools offering much the same programmes. Rationalise and maximise resources.

**sorry got interrupted.

We're probably losing a subject at LC.
We have already combined CSPE, SPHE and Religion, after a fashion.
Larger classes all round.
A number of children who had SNAs in primary now have none, so we have them to deal with too.
Some classes with three levels in them, most with two.

gaeilgebeo

spurious wrote: »

Combine the numbers of small second level schools into one per thousand kids, properly equipped, offering all subjects at all levels to all comers.

There are some small towns and suburbs in Ireland with up to four second level schools offering much the same programmes. Rationalise and maximise resources.

**sorry got interrupted.

We're probably losing a subject at LC.
We have already combined CSPE, SPHE and Religion, after a fashion.
Larger classes all round.
A number of children who had SNAs in primary now have none, so we have them to deal with too.
Some classes with three levels in them, most with two.

How does this work Spurious? How would you be covered for a WSE?

bdoo

puffishoes wrote: »

bdoo wrote: »

Any other Ideas?

Yes,

Remove subjects like Religion/music/language's from the daily curricular.

shorten the overall day and remove the summer break.

Music/lanagues/religion etc should be optional and bring in part time teachers for after normal hours to teach these as I imagine the numbers will be pretty

This should save enough to bring back in anything _important_ you lost.

So school should not prepare kids for any European language? good plan. U should ring Ruari with that one. If you had mentioned that 10 years ago maybe we wouldn't be in this mess! Imagine it, French, German next thing they'll want to teach English. Its a language I think?

and religious education which touches on issues of tolerance and diversity not just learn your prayers like it was in my day. bit xenophobic are we?

but you're right about music its just silly. banging drums and singing... madness. im not sure how it ever got on the curriculum in the first place. Bono would be fairly sick if the clocks were turned back and his school didn't support musical talents, arrogant p**** anyway, probably would have been a teacher instead.

Puffishoes, you clearly know nothing of this topic, as I have outlined above your arguments are NONSENSE!

Good day to you.

bdoo

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

How does this work Spurious? How would you be covered for a WSE?

I'd love to know too Spurious, I think a single subject would be Ideal and still address the need for something like this.

Miss Lockhart

We've been cut by 110 hours or 5 WTE. We have also lost 2 SNAs.

I don't really understand how - we are a large DEIS school with increasing enrollment. I know it involves the LCVP PTR change, the guidance cuts and some disadvantage scheme "legacy" posts. We have also had 8 retirements in the last 2 years.

I know that our principal and deputy principal will be teaching for the first time in over 10 years.

The only way we could increase our class numbers would be by increasing the special needs classes to over 20. All other classes are 30+ or 24 for practical classes.

We have already dropped physics and chemistry which had very low take-up. They are offered Physics-Chemistry if demand meets a certain amount. TY is currently compulsory but that is up for review now.

We are missing many post-holders at the moment including a principal of the PLC college which has around 400 students.

If it was me I would first cut religion other than as an exam subject - especially for senior cycle. Then I would get rid of chaplains - I can't believe guidance was cut before this. CSPE would be next and SPHE - even though I really think they should stay, then LCVP.

I also agree with Spurious re small schools.

bdoo

That's rough Miss Lockhart.

I agree about small schools too. Even some biggish ones.

I know a biggish town with a VEC school of 400 and a CBS of 350. New school in the pipeline for VEC and the CBS is being extended at the min. 2 x Principals, 2 x Deputies plus all the rest! Makes no sense. Also a convent in the town.

doc_17

Doesn't SPHE and Religion HAVE to be on the timetable?

Amalgamating schools is already happening (has happened) is some places.

rainbowtrout

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

We've been cut by 110 hours or 5 WTE. We have also lost 2 SNAs.

I don't really understand how - we are a large DEIS school with increasing enrollment. I know it involves the LCVP PTR change, the guidance cuts and some disadvantage scheme "legacy" posts. We have also had 8 retirements in the last 2 years.

I know that our principal and deputy principal will be teaching for the first time in over 10 years.

The only way we could increase our class numbers would be by increasing the special needs classes to over 20. All other classes are 30+ or 24 for practical classes.

We have already dropped physics and chemistry which had very low take-up. They are offered Physics-Chemistry if demand meets a certain amount. TY is currently compulsory but that is up for review now.

We are missing many post-holders at the moment including a principal of the PLC college which has around 400 students.

If it was me I would first cut religion other than as an exam subject - especially for senior cycle. Then I would get rid of chaplains - I can't believe guidance was cut before this. CSPE would be next and SPHE - even though I really think they should stay, then LCVP.

I also agree with Spurious re small schools.

bdoo wrote: »

That's rough Miss Lockhart.

I agree about small schools too. Even some biggish ones.

I know a biggish town with a VEC school of 400 and a CBS of 350. New school in the pipeline for VEC and the CBS is being extended at the min. 2 x Principals, 2 x Deputies plus all the rest! Makes no sense. Also a convent in the town.

That sounds fairly rough. Forgot to mention our chaplain is going to be teaching 22 hours religion next year, obviously she's not too happy about that. Not sure how school can do that but it's happening.

Town 25 miles down the road from me, has 3 schools in the town, a CBS, convent and a community college. Population: 5000. WTF? How is this allowed to continue in this day and age.

Another town population about 7000, has 4 schools. Absolutely ridiculous.

spurious

For the SPHE/CSPE/Religion thing....
We have hour long classes and I think the kids spend two hours a week on this amalgam of subjects. I'm not directly involved in it, but I think they have more of an emphasis on each subject in different years. We've been through a WSE and seem to have been fulfilling whatever criteria they had.

We take CSPE fairly seriously in our place and there is an extensive volunteering and genuine service ethic among many of the kids in the school. We've been involved with Localise Ireland for years, so maybe the DES liked that.

byhookorbycrook

I see it's mainly secondary so far .15% overall cuts in resource time makes timetabling a nightmare and it's going to be very difficult to meet the individual needs of each child.Modern Language programme has been lost from our school and for the first time in 25 years we won't have it.