Becoming a solicitor

somairle

Hi,

I am at the very early beginnings of thinking of a career change, after graduating with a business degree a few years ago I went to work for my family firm and they said "we need you to become either a lawyer or accountant", so I started the accounting exams and disregarded law purely because I had already been to college and accounting can be done with books at home or a few nights in college and the exams, law seemed a lot harder to get into considering Id already been to college. But the law parts of my degree really interested me, and I regretted my decision not to pursue it within months. I have decided my heart really isnt in accounting, I dont have the drive to study for the exams and have no passion for it, whereas Ive always had a passion for legal matters, so as hard as it may be to change career in my late 20's, I am thinking I may pursue it now.

Can anyone give me any pointers on where to start, is it possible to become a lawyer through part time study? and what courses are best? I know someone in England that is doing Open University and for some reason that says to me 'micky mouse course' but she says she will be a solicitor at the end of it after a bar entry exam (may have got that wrong), would open university bring you to qualification? or would Trinity be a better option?

Any related information would be helpful,

many thanks

NoQuarter

There are two ways you can go:

Solicitor: There are 8 exams that you have to pass, see here: http://www.lawsociety.ie/Pages/Public-Becoming-a-Solicitor-CMS/

You dont need a law degree but you need to passs 8 law exams so your head will be in law books for a long time regardless. Then you must go to Blackhall place and train to be a solicitor for something lik 21 months. All the info is in the link I gave you.


The 2nd way is qualify as a Barrister:

Youll need to do a 2 year legal diploma, then sit 5 entrance exams, then do a 1 year degree(2 year part time). Then you are called to the Bar and can work in-house for 3 years (in a legal capacity) and you may be able to crossover to become a solicitor. There are lts of formalities and requirements, again they are in the link I gave you above. The following link is to become a Barrister: http://www.kingsinns.ie/website/index.htm

Super tough road but considering you already have a job lined up its not so bad, just very expensive. VERY.

somairle

great, many thanks. the cost sounds good :-/ whatever it takes though to pursue a career I will be happy in

somairle

Hi, sorry just a question, would you have a ballpark figure on how much it would cost all in? It doesnt look that expensive (probably missing something) for the first option...The preliminary test looks like €425, the 8 exams are €880 (8x110), you are paid for the 24 month trainee contract (I assume thats the same as the blackhall place thing your talking about?). But then how much is the 2 PPC's? Doesnt look that much, unless your talking about college fees on top to study the areas

December2012

There are more costs than that, example study courses for each fe1, repeating the exams, loss of income while studying or doing exams.

Exam papers and guides, travel, parking, food, it all adds up.

NoQuarter

somairle wrote: »

Hi, sorry just a question, would you have a ballpark figure on how much it would cost all in? It doesnt look that expensive (probably missing something) for the first option...The preliminary test looks like €425, the 8 exams are €880 (8x110), you are paid for the 24 month trainee contract (I assume thats the same as the blackhall place thing your talking about?). But then how much is the 2 PPC's? Doesnt look that much, unless your talking about college fees on top to study the areas

PPC is about €14,000 altogether unless the firm you are training with are paying for it which, unless you are in the top handful of firms, they wont be. 8 exams are €880 if you pass them first time around and so so many people with a law degree fail numerous exams. Also, if you come close to passing them and want a re-check, that is €120.

As the poster above mentioned, without a law degree, a prep course is a good idea, check the independent colleges website, but I think they are around 400 per topic?

Like I said, very, very expensive. VERY.

somairle

Cheers, yeah that is expensive, Ill do a prep course make sure Im cut out for it.

Right 2B a liar

somairle wrote: »

Cheers, yeah that is expensive, Ill do a prep course make sure Im cut out for it.

I don't like to think about it but somewhere in the region of €4,000 it cost me to do FE1 I repeated EU once. As I had a non law background I attended GCD courses as well as revision days and including cost of the exams and travel to them etc that is a conservative figure.

jblack

All in circa 20k from starting FE-1 to Qualification

FE-1 - 3,500
PPC - 8,500 + 1,000 application
PPC11 - 4,500
Getting on the Roll - 500
Practicising cert 2,100

Excluding any courses, resits or re-attendance fees that may be required.
- and take into account 3 years worth of living expenses with the possibility of not being paid.

somairle

This may be a ridiculous question, but is it possible to to not attend college for the FE-1 and just study the recommended reading material in the syllabus and sit the exam and have a chance of passing? Sounds like that it is too difficult for that, but it would probably be the only way I could do it. I dont think I could afford college for each FE subject unless I knew a big firm was going to pay the PPC's later on (which like you say is unlikely, my firm certainly wont)

Tom Young

OP: Use the search function. Visit the Law Society website and apprise yourself properly.

Farcear

somairle wrote: »

This may be a ridiculous question, but is it possible to to not attend college for the FE-1 and just study the recommended reading material in the syllabus and sit the exam and have a chance of passing? Sounds like that it is too difficult for that, but it would probably be the only way I could do it. I dont think I could afford college for each FE subject unless I knew a big firm was going to pay the PPC's later on (which like you say is unlikely, my firm certainly wont)

Yes.

The prep courses produce "Manuals" for each subject. Get your hands on an up-to-date version (€50ish per subject). If you can memorise everything in the manual, you should be able to get a pass.

No other material is needed.

You will need to learn how to write "legal style" answers to problem questions and such from somewhere though.

chops018

It sounds a lot worse than it is, well concerning the FE1's anyway. But do be prepared that you probably will fail some subjects, and the annoying thing is they are only on twice a year. As posted above many diligent people with law degrees have failed, I've even heard of people fresh with law degrees and having done prep courses fail certain subjects, so it could take you 1-2 years just to get the FE1's done. However there is a ray of light, you don't have to sit all 8 at once: note you have sit at least 4 and pass at least 3 the first time round. If you do that then you can sit the rest in one's and two's - this means you could work while studying and just get a few weeks off before the exams and so you could still be making money and hopefully saving a bit towards the PPC1 fees etc for when you get through the exams.

As for the PPC1 and PPC2, well as mentioned above there is no escaping that cost I'm afraid, some are eligible for grants which does help but I'm sure it is very hard financially for certain parts of the 2 years in blackhall (note the firm has to pay you a certain wage whilst you do your training with them during your time in blackhall - I think it's 8 months in PPC1 then 5 months working with a solicitor, then back to blackhall for anther 5 or 6 months, then work with the solicitor again for another 4 or 5 months and then you're done).

It sounds very daunting and realistically you are probably looking at 3-5 years before being qualified. There have been some people who have went in and done all 8 and passed in one go and been into Blackhall that September and qualified two years later. However there have been people (with good law degrees I might add) who have went in, split them up into say 4 and 4, ended up only passing 2 out of 4 the first sitting meaning all those 4 had to be repeated and so it ended up being 1.5-2 years before entering blackhall.

I'm not too sure what the grant situation is with Blackhall for the PPC1 and PPC2 courses is either. I've heard the maintenance grant is gone but I think you can still get a grant towards the fees if eligible.

As for me, I did 4 of the FE1's in the March sitting, I only passed 2 out of 4 so I'll be back again to do all 4 (I might add I have a degree and masters in law). But anyway I am young and I have a job (which keeps me in money and they gave me a few weeks off during and before the exams last time) so I decided I won't fret and I have plenty of time to get through the exams. I'll worry about the PPC1 and PPC2 (and traineeships) when I get through the FE1's.

So if you really did want to go ahead with it I would suggest splitting the exams up as this would enable you to work and keep an income and maybe save some money for when you are able to attend Blackhall. Also if it turned out after 4 that you didn't like studying law or felt you wouldn't like to practice law then that would mean that you wouldn't have spent much as of yet.

EDIT: once you have a level 8 degree you can sit the 8 FE1's (well you might have to do the preliminary exam, you will have to check that out) but you do not have to do prep courses, once you get the most recent edition text, past exams papers, and then go online (there is a thread on here specifically for selling the manuals and sample answers obtained in past prep courses) and buy manuals and exams papers and these usually last a good while unless there has been a significant change in the law. Anyway if you get your hands on all this stuff then that is everything you need for studying at home, no need to do prep courses etc if you don't want to. Manuals are usually 50 euro and include sample answers and papers, they are usually very toned down and concise so maybe if you went on and bought one or two manuals and sample answers for some of the easier subjects like criminal law and contract law and had a look at them to see what you think.

NoQuarter

somairle wrote: »

This may be a ridiculous question, but is it possible to to not attend college for the FE-1 and just study the recommended reading material in the syllabus and sit the exam and have a chance of passing? Sounds like that it is too difficult for that, but it would probably be the only way I could do it. I dont think I could afford college for each FE subject unless I knew a big firm was going to pay the PPC's later on (which like you say is unlikely, my firm certainly wont)

In my humble opinion you would be doing ridiculously well to do it, thats not to say its impossible, the prep courses are not mandatory but I wouldnt relish the task!

kronsington

having just qualified as a solicitor i would advise anyone thinking going down this route to think VERY strongly before committing. It's tough, expensive and at this moment in time (from my point of view anyway) doesnt feel particularly worth it. At least with an accounting qualification you have more freedom to work abroad, something you dont have with law. The exams are passable, its just the sheer volume of stuff you have to go through. The worst part of the whole process is getting an apprenticeship which truly was a nightmare a few years ago and i can only imagine what its like for someone trying to get one now. Perhaps im just jaded from having gone through the process for the last few years and am now finishing up in my office in a few weeks, but think very carefully is all im trying to say!

ResearchWill

kronsington wrote: »

having just qualified as a solicitor i would advise anyone thinking going down this route to think VERY strongly before committing. It's tough, expensive and at this moment in time (from my point of view anyway) doesnt feel particularly worth it. At least with an accounting qualification you have more freedom to work abroad, something you dont have with law. The exams are passable, its just the sheer volume of stuff you have to go through. The worst part of the whole process is getting an apprenticeship which truly was a nightmare a few years ago and i can only imagine what its like for someone trying to get one now. Perhaps im just jaded from having gone through the process for the last few years and am now finishing up in my office in a few weeks, but think very carefully is all im trying to say!

I think you echo what I have been hearing from a lot of people who have recently gone through the process of becoming a solicitor. Its the same at the bar at the moment.

December2012

As a recently made redundant solicitor, I would say find something else.

NoQuarter

The difference here is he would seem to have a job in the family firm lined up.

chops018

What about us people who are only in the middle of the FE1's and who have a law degree (and some with a masters). Went through years of college to pursue such a career and so now because it is tough, I and others like me should just give up!? If you want something go after it is what I think.

It would be just as hard for the likes of myself to go back to college for another career, i.e. accounting, teaching, etc.

My parents helped me through those years of college and I know what I want to do, albeit it will take some time as I have a job also, but I won't give up, especially at a young age. I know it is very difficult, but maybe things will pick up. I just don't like the way people just turn around and tell someone not to bother going after something. If you spent years in college and it is something you really want then go for it regardless!

ResearchWill

chops018 wrote: »

What about us people who are only in the middle of the FE1's and who have a law degree (and some with a masters). Went through years of college to pursue such a career and so now because it is tough, I and others like me should just give up!? If you want something go after it is what I think.

It would be just as hard for the likes of myself to go back to college for another career, i.e. accounting, teaching, etc.

My parents helped me through those years of college and I know what I want to do, albeit it will take some time as I have a job also, but I won't give up, especially at a young age. I know it is very difficult, but maybe things will pick up. I just don't like the way people just turn around and tell someone not to bother going after something. If you spent years in college and it is something you really want then go for it regardless!

No one is saying give up, this thread is to answer questions of a person who is thinking of setting out on the path and it is giving him all the information he requires to make a decision.

If you believe in what you are doing then go for it, it's not easy but nothing worth anything comes easy.

December2012

Look, of course go for it. If you can get paid doing something you love then you'll never have to work a day in your life.

But there are hundreds of us who felt the same as you who now cannot find work and it's not through lack of effort or want.

It's a realistic reflection on the current job market.

Plenty of qualified solicitors like me are going to have to retrain.

That's life sometimes.

If you're only responsible for yourself it's not a problem. If you're trying to take care of a family it can be.

nuac

I echo the calls for caution re legal careers. I have 40 years plus experience as a solicitor. It is very tough in recent years, and does not look like improving.

Unless you get into one of the major commercial firms, it is very hard to make a living.

kronsington

can i just ask what some of you who have qualified are doing? im curious to know what people are doing with themselves, im out of work myself in a few weeks. retraining? in what? for me, ive no interest to remain in private practice, im looking at trying to get in-house somewhere and even looking at non-legal jobs that i may be able to get into through the qualification. but its vry difficult to know where to begin.

id recommend having a look at these courses. theyre short in duration and a work placement can be facilitated on completion. check it out

http://www.lawsociety.ie/Pages/CPD/Job-Seeker-Courses/

Delancey

I know one Solicitor who lost her job a couple of years ago , went to work in her family bisiness just to get by but 2 years later she loves it , is earning almost the same money for a lot less hours and responsibility - she has no plans to return to law.

December2012

Kronsington those courses are great, and definitely something I am interested in.

Unfortunately, my wages covered my childcare. Jobseekers allowance doesn't. So unless a job comes my way, I will have to wait until my childcare will not cost 2k a month (at which stage I will definitely no longer qualify for any jobseekers payment).

I would love to work in-house and I think i'd be pretty good at it after doing that JSSP course and work placement. It makes me sad to not do it.:(

Right 2B a liar

You can go hard or you can go home. As a solicitor once told me, he went to a sixth year class in the late 90's and told them law was a bad career choice few years later solicitors made a killing during the boom...

somairle

Thanks for the information people, it's a lot to think about. Its quite shocking to hear things have gotten tough for solicitors, I know its tough for everyone, but for some reason I expected solicitors to be doing quite well - I guess thats because I know what the law dept. of my family firm are charging people!

Its a massive decision, and Im getting married next year so Id expect a family along the way soon enough, so your right I cant be selfish about it, plenty of people do work they arent exactly passionate about.

I am leaning towards sticking with the accounting purely because it'll only take a couple more years and a fraction of the cost, I do have a law module in accounting and then perhaps I can go into an area of accounting a bit more interesting than I am in now (tax).

Many thanks again

ResearchWill

somairle wrote: »

Thanks for the information people, it's a lot to think about. Its quite shocking to hear things have gotten tough for solicitors, I know its tough for everyone, but for some reason I expected solicitors to be doing quite well - I guess thats because I know what the law dept. of my family firm are charging people!

Its a massive decision, and Im getting married next year so Id expect a family along the way soon enough, so your right I cant be selfish about it, plenty of people do work they arent exactly passionate about.

I am leaning towards sticking with the accounting purely because it'll only take a couple more years and a fraction of the cost, I do have a law module in accounting and then perhaps I can go into an area of accounting a bit more interesting than I am in now (tax).

Many thanks again

If you are thinking along those lines, the option of the bar is also open, with a 2 year part time diploma in the evening, and then a 2 year part time Barrister at Law Degree. As it can be done part time it can be a handy way of getting a legal quilification.

Delancey

somairle wrote: »

Thanks for the information people, it's a lot to think about. Its quite shocking to hear things have gotten tough for solicitors, I know its tough for everyone, but for some reason I expected solicitors to be doing quite well

Many folks here make the point that indeed the demand for legal services is quite high now - the problem is the people who need Solicitors the most are the least able to pay for them.

December2012

If your client goes bust, then so do you. Commercial client or private client.

Everybody assumes that solicitors are wealthy and do not understand how much it costs to run a solicitors practice before you even take on one client (practicing certs, CPD, insurance, etc).

You always hear - "shop around, get cheaper, don't they know its a recession"?

Amazotheamazing

chops018 wrote: »

What about us people who are only in the middle of the FE1's and who have a law degree (and some with a masters). Went through years of college to pursue such a career and so now because it is tough, I and others like me should just give up!? If you want something go after it is what I think.

It would be just as hard for the likes of myself to go back to college for another career, i.e. accounting, teaching, etc.

My parents helped me through those years of college and I know what I want to do, albeit it will take some time as I have a job also, but I won't give up, especially at a young age. I know it is very difficult, but maybe things will pick up. I just don't like the way people just turn around and tell someone not to bother going after something. If you spent years in college and it is something you really want then go for it regardless!

You can be given all the advice in the world but ultimately it's your life to live.

My viewpoint would be that someone in your position would be better off cutting their losses so to speak but if you really, really, feel passionately about it then go for it.

chops018

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

You can be given all the advice in the world but ultimately it's your life to live.

My viewpoint would be that someone in your position would be better off cutting their losses so to speak but if you really, really, feel passionately about it then go for it.

Put it this way, I really really want to try break into law and make a career out of it. Which is why I'm doing the FE1's at the moment, doing them bit by bit as I have a job and can't afford to quit. I know when I get through the FE1's it will be hard trying to obtain a trainee-ship but I really do want to become a solicitor.

I don't want to "cut my losses" after aspiring for years and spending time and money going to college just because a few people have said "ah I wouldn't bother with that, no point in going for that sure there will be no jobs at the end of it". It is the same way for someone wanting to become an electrician (although it would be cheaper to go down such a route), or a teacher (it's over 9,000 euro to do the hibernian course to become a teacher and takes two years - very costly and no job guaranteed at the end of it). So I feel that such arguments can be made about any profession these days, going and getting qualified for a profession doesn't mean you will have a job guaranteed at the end of it, but that doesn't mean someone should say "ah feck it, I'll work in Dunnes for the rest of my life" - not saying that's a bad thing if that's a persons choice, they can work they're way up the ladder of management and it can turn out to be a very lucrative career.

What I'm saying is a lot of professions these days don't have guaranteed jobs at the end of qualification, but that doesn't mean someone should just give up.....if they feel they want to pursue such a career then go ahead, it may take a while to break into, but anything that's easy isn't worth doing.

nuac

Chops it really is tough in law these days for reasons already set out on these boards.

Talk to some practising solicitors

chops018

nuac wrote: »

Chops it really is tough in law these days for reasons already set out on these boards.

Talk to some practising solicitors

I'm not saying it's not tough in law, and I have seen and heard plenty of stories of the way things are. But I've seen and heard plenty of stories about a lot of professions these days. The point I'm trying to get across is that's it's tough these days in plenty of areas, and just because it's tough doesn't mean someone who really wants to break into such an area should just throw they're hat at it.

Blackrockcomet

I'm in a fairly similar position Chops. Obviously giving up now is not a good idea for you. From what I see there is no problem in keeping going with it, there are plenty of outs along the way. Legal executive work, in house work, compliance, contract management/admin. All of these and more can be very lucrative and it is relatively easy to divert into all of them from a career as a solicitor. That's not to mention wholly unconnected careers that could benefit from the project management skills of a solicitor

secretambition

I don't go along with the view that if you want something badly enough you should go for it no matter what the cost or how low the chances of success. Many, many years of sacrifice to get somewhere that ultimately isn't the dream it was thought to be could lead to serious resentment. It's not a choice between following your dream and being miserable for the rest of your life as some people seem to see it (not saying you OP). A little consideration of your personal characterisics alongside where opportunities lie in the current climate could throw up a good choice of realistic career opportunities that would leave you happy and fulfilled to a sufficient extent, with a good standard of living and future prospects.

NoQuarter

secretambition wrote: »

If you have experience in the financial world and think you would like a job that involves legal interpretation, have you ever considered tax?

I'd imagine he has considering he is in tax at the moment

secretambition

NoQuarter wrote: »

I'd imagine he has considering he is in tax at the moment

Ok, sorry, missed that post. But I still think he should look at other options.

johnnyskeleton

Something to bear in mind is that many successful lawyers today started during the last recession. There is still lots of money in lawering, even if starting off as a solicitor is particularly tough at the moment. Being a junior solicitor now is not significantly worse than being a junior barrister has always been.

Right 2B a liar

This might be naive of me but from the LSI website there are continuously jobs being posted that lawyers could easily do. Are those that can't find work restrained in their choice of jobs because of location, family commitments etc as I think if you had no job as a lawyer but really wanted to work in some legal capacity you would find something, either yourself or through a recruiter...

December2012

Most of those jobs receive 100s of applications. Half might have the skills, 5 might get an interview, 1gets the job.

kronsington

Right 2B a liar wrote: »

This might be naive of me but from the LSI website there are continuously jobs being posted that lawyers could easily do. Are those that can't find work restrained in their choice of jobs because of location, family commitments etc as I think if you had no job as a lawyer but really wanted to work in some legal capacity you would find something, either yourself or through a recruiter...

which site is this?

kronsington

Blackrockcomet wrote: »

I'm in a fairly similar position Chops. Obviously giving up now is not a good idea for you. From what I see there is no problem in keeping going with it, there are plenty of outs along the way. Legal executive work, in house work, compliance, contract management/admin. All of these and more can be very lucrative and it is relatively easy to divert into all of them from a career as a solicitor. That's not to mention wholly unconnected careers that could benefit from the project management skills of a solicitor

Such as? It's a good point but I wouldn't know where even to begin looking etc

Right 2B a liar

kronsington wrote: »

which site is this?

The law society website, but like I said maybe I have the wrong idea. There has been 48 jobs this year so someone has to fill them....

kronsington

Right 2B a liar wrote: »

The law society website, but like I said maybe I have the wrong idea. There has been 48 jobs this year so someone has to fill them....

Ok. I thought "LSI" might have meant something else than Law Soc

nuac

Kronsington

I have met few solicitors with project management skills.

Yes we can talk well at meetings, and take notes/minutes - but to manage a project with other disicplines and professions - 'fraid not.

jblack

nuac wrote: »

Kronsington

I have met few solicitors with project management skills.

Yes we can talk well at meetings, and take notes/minutes - but to manage a project with other disicplines and professions - 'fraid not.

No nuac - for once I disagree with you. I submit that the fact a solicitor is encouraged to pass on certain elements of responsibility to other professionals, such as tax advice, may influence your assertion but, as a PM who converted to law, I found solicitors training both within the firm and within the law society as encouraging full life cycle involvement requiring at least some PM skills.

somairle

After weighing up information here and elsewhere I have decided not to go down the route of law. One of the main considerations was cost, it would only take a fraction of the cost of starting law to finish up my accounting exams and become qualified. I have an interest in law and hopfully down the line I can go into an area in accounting that at least involves some aspects of law.

Many thanks for all your replies, I havent been able to reply to everyone but I have read them and thought about each point (part of the reason I would make a good lawyer!)

nuac

jblack wrote: »

No nuac - for once I disagree with you. I submit that the fact a solicitor is encouraged to pass on certain elements of responsibility to other professionals, such as tax advice, may influence your assertion but, as a PM who converted to law, I found solicitors training both within the firm and within the law society as encouraging full life cycle involvement requiring at least some PM skills.

J Black

was thinking more of development/construction projects - more likely to be led by architects, consulting engineers etc.

I was a involved in a three way company merger years ago, which was led by the three solicitors involved.

ResearchWill

somairle wrote: »

After weighing up information here and elsewhere I have decided not to go down the route of law. One of the main considerations was cost, it would only take a fraction of the cost of starting law to finish up my accounting exams and become qualified. I have an interest in law and hopfully down the line I can go into an area in accounting that at least involves some aspects of law.

Many thanks for all your replies, I havent been able to reply to everyone but I have read them and thought about each point (part of the reason I would make a good lawyer!)

As I have posted earlier, the option of part time study for the bar is always there.

FreudianSlippers

For people concerned about employment as a solicitor, the bar is the wrong direction to be looking for security I'm afraid.