International Tier 2/3/4 Thread

KenSwee

I'm always interested in the nations performances and news below tier 1 so thought I'd put this thread up.

This is cool site for Europe's very own Tri Nations tournament; Norway, Sweden and Denmark.
I noticed that Norway has an Irishman, Neil Ryan, playing for them.

http://www.clashofthevikings.com/

errlloyd

I follow Cyprus rugby on Twitter, they post full vids of all of their games online which is pretty sweet.

Taco Corp

European Nations Cup on Setanta Ireland today

All three of today's games are live

http://www.irb.com/nationscup/fixturesresults/index.html

According to their TV listings, Setanta will also be showing some Pacific Nations Cup matches as well this weekend

funky penguin

I've been following the Pacific Nations, rooting for Japan. Painstakingly close in their two games, but it's gone for them this year.

I didn't realise until it started that it's hosted annually by a nation (at least I think it is). I'm pissed off that I didn't know sooner, I would have taken time off work/saved money and headed to Tokyo for a weekend.

Teferi

Russia V Uruguay on Setanta right now. Fairly competitive.

decisions

Does Emerging Italy = Italy A?

Teferi

Yeah, it's Italy A.

JustinDee

KenSwee wrote: »

I'm always interested in the nations performances and news below tier 1 so thought I'd put this thread up.

This is cool site for Europe's very own Tri Nations tournament; Norway, Sweden and Denmark.
I noticed that Norway has an Irishman, Neil Ryan, playing for them.

http://www.clashofthevikings.com/

I was selected for Norway but missed out through an injury (which was actually my last ever game). Been one or two Irish there but mainly English, Aussie and Kiwi playing with Norwegians.

Teferi

Wasn't there a bit of a documentary before the World Cup following some Irish lad who declared for Azerbaijan and played for them?

Fishooks12

JustinDee wrote: »

I was selected for Norway but missed out through an injury (which was actually my last ever game). Been one or two Irish there but mainly English, Aussie and Kiwi playing with Norwegians.

What standard would you say you were yourself Justin?

Often wondered what it would take to play for an international side like that. Met some of the Maltese rugby team out when I was over there. Looked like fellas that enjoyed a few pints!

[Jackass]

Once you go below sort of the top 15 - 20 in world rankings, you're really looking at low AIL standard after that.

The lad who played out in Azerbijan or wherever it was was fairly useless by AIL / Irish standards, never played firsts or anything, so I'd imagine it's all pretty week.

After all, it's all amature, but probably wouldn't have half as decent a set up as most AIL clubs in terms of coaching, player pool and finance etc.

wicklowwonder

Former Wicklow GAA player Barry O'Donovan played for Austria a few times. http://austriantimes.at/?id=8822


He is back home now playing GAA, says in the article he hadn't played since school boy days. He was a quality GAA player, I think he use to fly home for championship etc.

JustinDee

Fishooks12 wrote: »

What standard would you say you were yourself Justin?

Often wondered what it would take to play for an international side like that. Met some of the Maltese rugby team out when I was over there. Looked like fellas that enjoyed a few pints!

Played McCorry Cup in 88 when it was u19 but left Ireland not long afterwards. Played club and regional rugby league in NSW Country divisions in Australia. By time I moved back to Ireland seven years ago I was 35 and done.
There are some very handy players playing in lower tiered European sides who would get onto a 1A or 1B AIL side here. Mainly ex-pats from various countries just giving it a whirl while playing a code of rugby.

xplosive

"Once you go below sort of the top 15 - 20 in world rankings, you're really looking at low AIL standard after that"

Definately higher than that. The likes of Russia, Germany, Poland, Spain, Uraguay, Portugal would be a better level than most AIL sides bar the top 3 or 4 of AIL Division 1.

thebaz

xplosive wrote: »

The likes of Russia, Germany, Poland, Spain, Uraguay, Portugal would be a better level than most AIL sides bar the top 3 or 4 of AIL Division 1.

don't understand why Russia arnt the equivalent of Italy - they have a proffesional league, they are genetically very strong and big , and is a massive wealthy country - never understood also why america are not stronger - i played there for a while , and they were a lot bigger than us , if a bit naive tactically, so many ex American footballers who were great atheletes

KenSwee

In my opinion, Poland have been the most progressive European nation up the rankings. They have gone from ENC2C to ENC1B* in only 5 years.

I visited their base in Warsaw about 6 years ago and was impressed that the plans they had then have nearly all come to fruition.

They have a decent following in their homeland and combined with the recruitment of players of Polish decent based in the likes of France, along with a decent French coaching staff have all gone to give them a real improvement. They are also very cleaver in the fact that they play their home games in different parts of their country, thus allowing access to potential new fans.

I can see them realistically qualifying for the world cup with in the next ten years.

Their website is in English and you can check it out here.

http://pzrugby.pl/?gtlang=en

*European Nations Cup

KenSwee

This is probably the most important site for those interested in T2 and below.

http://www.fira-aer-rugby.com/

JustinDee

thebaz wrote: »

don't understand why Russia arnt the equivalent of Italy - they have a proffesional league, they are genetically very strong and big , and is a massive wealthy country - never understood also why america are not stronger - i played there for a while , and they were a lot bigger than us , if a bit naive tactically, so many ex American footballers who were great atheletes

They are not professional. Semi-professional at best. Paying a player to play a match doesn't make it a professional scenario. Many players are part-timers or amateurs dividing time between main jobs and playing for a match fee. Players being paid a match fee isn't unusual to club rugby in any of the six nations, for example. I know Spanish players who get paid per match but work regular jobs.

KenSwee

Given that there are a few posters here who have had involvement with emerging rugby nations, what is the general consensus about the involvement of foreign players representing nations other then their own?

Is it a good thing or bad thing?
Should there be less recruitment and more focus on local talent.
Does the use of foreign imports in national sides boost performance and skill levels with emerging nations?

Tim Visser makes his 'Scotland' début on Saturday against Fiji and nobody doubts that he would be a tremendous asset to Holland. It's amazing to think that if the Dutch could find another 5 or 6 players across the field, then they would be a far better proposition.
Nobody can fault his decision to play; He wants to play at the highest level but could their be a compromise in the sense that he could also represent Holland in some form as well?
Unlikely given the professional demands nowadays I suppose.

JustinDee

KenSwee wrote: »

Given that there are a few posters here who have had involvement with emerging rugby nations, what is the general consensus about the involvement of foreign players representing nations other then their own?

Is it a good thing or bad thing?
Should there be less recruitment and more focus on local talent.
Does the use of foreign imports in national sides boost performance and skill levels with emerging nations?

It is a good thing. The alternative is the game dying on its keyster.
They're not imported players. They are players who qualify via residency and citizenship. Entirely different scenario.

Example of Norway: The one big obstacle for rugby union's development in Norway is not really soccer (where premier league supercedes any indigenous leagues) or any other sport. Its not even the climate. It is the mollycoddling 'Soccer Mom'.
For the main part, parents are not wanting their kids playing full-contact sports such as rugby union. Bringing the sport through schools is tough enough work as it is.
This is why Ice Hockey in Norway is suffering so much over the past decade.

funky penguin

That's also a massive obstacle for Japan. Most Junior High Schools here won't allow rugby as it's too dangerous, so most kids have their first interaction in High School, aged 15/16. Some private schools start early (hohoho!), and lately I've noticed a couple of kids telling me they've joined an outside club. That's a tough ask in itself, as Junior High kids here are expected to join an after school club and participate until about 6/7 pm. So to have rugby training on top of that three days a week......

KenSwee

The official rankings page on the IRB website.

http://www.irb.com/rankings/full.html

KenSwee

JustinDee wrote: »

They're not imported players. They are players who qualify via residency and citizenship. Entirely different scenario..

Bad choice of word. I agree they are residency players.

KenSwee

funky penguin wrote: »

That's also a massive obstacle for Japan. Most Junior High Schools here won't allow rugby as it's too dangerous, so most kids have their first interaction in High School, aged 15/16. Some private schools start early (hohoho!), and lately I've noticed a couple of kids telling me they've joined an outside club. That's a tough ask in itself, as Junior High kids here are expected to join an after school club and participate until about 6/7 pm. So to have rugby training on top of that three days a week......

I've seen some ideas trying to address problems like size and weight in Asian countries such as the 80-80 tournaments (no player can weigh more then 80kgs) but I think it was a bit pie in the sky and I'm not sure if it's the right road for rugby to go down in those countries.

Teferi

In the Japanese High School league system I'm pretty sure that all players must wear a scrum cap. Interesting concept. I know scrum caps don't stop concussion but they do take the sting out of knocks.

JustinDee

I go to Lanzarote a few times a year and coach their rugby team each trip. There are seven teams playing in the Canaries league and cup, including two university sides.
The Lanza team has been steered by an ex-pat from N.Ireland for some years now and they have done a massive job. Senior Men, u19, minis and now a Women's side all hitting the field. Main playerbase source is of locals and mainland Spanish (some having played rep Spanish level) who have taken to the game with gusto. A few Argies and British in addition.
Great to see.
Penned this article a few years back following a trip over and meeting Los Conejeros for the first time
http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/7192.php

funky penguin

Teferi wrote: »

In the Japanese High School league system I'm pretty sure that all players must wear a scrum cap. Interesting concept. I know scrum caps don't stop concussion but they do take the sting out of knocks.

From what I've seen, it's a half truth. Over half the pack in the High School I occasionally visit wear caps, but it's not compulsory (in this specific High School anyway, it could differ radically in a different HS or prefecture).

One other thing I forgot to mention is the casual sportsman/woman nature of Japan. Many of the players in the club I'm in have absolutely no idea about rugby outside the games we play, not even Japan itself. The Pacific Nations may as well not exist, let alone the World Cup. It's not just in rugby. In other sports*, people just play for the casual fun and exercise. Once the practice session or game is over, rugby may never feature in their lives again until the squad meets again. It's really odd (for me) and something that took a long time to wrap my head around, especially since I love talking about huge games that happened on the weekend or what have you.

*Soccer is perhaps the only exception.

funky penguin

KenSwee wrote: »

I've seen some ideas trying to address problems like size and weight in Asian countries such as the 80-80 tournaments (no player can weigh more then 80kgs) but I think it was a bit pie in the sky and I'm not sure if it's the right road for rugby to go down in those countries.

I agree. Also, the idea of Japanese people all being small and squat is also very misleading I've found. There's a 14 year old kid I teach that is ridiculously tall for his age (taller than me at my 183cm), and quite built. But he plays basketball, and has done so for the past 7 years of his life. This is one of the major hurdles rugby has to overcome in Japan - it's a small fish in a big pond of various sports Japanese kids play in school. To the system's credit, the variety is excellent, but rugby just can't compete with basketball, volleyball (!), tennis, soccer and of course....baseball.

Teferi

funky penguin wrote: »

From what I've seen, it's a half truth. Over half the pack in the High School I occasionally visit wear caps, but it's not compulsory (in this specific High School anyway, it could differ radically in a different HS or prefecture).

Ah fair enough, my comment was based upon this video

Which I saw on a different rugby forum and someone commented about how scrum caps were compulsory in Japanese schools.

KenSwee

funky penguin wrote: »

I agree. Also, the idea of Japanese people all being small and squat is also very misleading I've found. There's a 14 year old kid I teach that is ridiculously tall for his age (taller than me at my 183cm), and quite built. But he plays basketball, and has done so for the past 7 years of his life. This is one of the major hurdles rugby has to overcome in Japan - it's a small fish in a big pond of various sports Japanese kids play in school. To the system's credit, the variety is excellent, but rugby just can't compete with basketball, volleyball (!), tennis, soccer and of course....baseball.

But it is professional though isn't it?
If so, how is it compared to say the Super 15 in terms of pay packet?
I know Shane Williams has done a u turn and is heading there so there must be some decent money?

Snickers Man

Teferi wrote: »

Wasn't there a bit of a documentary before the World Cup following some Irish lad who declared for Azerbaijan and played for them?

John O'Sullivan used to run a little column of rugby snippets in the Irish Times in which people would write in and tell him about Irish mates of theirs who played for out of the way places like Israel, Andorra and Luxembourg.

I even did it myself once

(Wrote in to tell them about a mate who played international rugby that is)

Most of the really small places in the world depend heavily on passing trade. Which is fair enough. It's still largely an amateur game after all and is spread by the virus of people actually wanting to play.

tolosenc

Anyone else thinking of applying for jobs in one of these minnow countries and then trying to get capped after 3 years?

KenSwee

It's a great way to represent a country in international sport.
Bit too old I'm afraid. 2o years younger and I'd be all for it.

Fishooks12

tolosenc wrote: »

Anyone else thinking of applying for jobs in one of these minnow countries and then trying to get capped after 3 years?

If I emigrate when I graduate this time next year It'll probably be to London.

Should walk onto the International team

wonton

funky penguin wrote: »

That's also a massive obstacle for Japan. Most Junior High Schools here won't allow rugby as it's too dangerous, so most kids have their first interaction in High School, aged 15/16. Some private schools start early (hohoho!), and lately I've noticed a couple of kids telling me they've joined an outside club. That's a tough ask in itself, as Junior High kids here are expected to join an after school club and participate until about 6/7 pm. So to have rugby training on top of that three days a week......

any idea if the japanese dude that joined with stade francais has gotten any game time?



and did you see shane williams is off to japan too?

youd think all these players moving there might generate some interest.

tolosenc

tolosenc wrote: »

Anyone else thinking of applying for jobs in one of these minnow countries and then trying to get capped after 3 years?

after seeing the Finnish jersey, I've been thinking about moving across!

funky penguin

KenSwee wrote: »

funky penguin wrote: »

I agree. Also, the idea of Japanese people all being small and squat is also very misleading I've found. There's a 14 year old kid I teach that is ridiculously tall for his age (taller than me at my 183cm), and quite built. But he plays basketball, and has done so for the past 7 years of his life. This is one of the major hurdles rugby has to overcome in Japan - it's a small fish in a big pond of various sports Japanese kids play in school. To the system's credit, the variety is excellent, but rugby just can't compete with basketball, volleyball (!), tennis, soccer and of course....baseball.

But it is professional though isn't it?
If so, how is it compared to say the Super 15 in terms of pay packet?
I know Shane Williams has done a u turn and is heading there so there must be some decent money?

Yeah, it's professional alright, and I think it's potentially more than S15 depending on your status ( like te Brad Thorns, George Smiths and now Shane Williams' of the rugby world!). Don't have a figure though. Did a quick search but my Japanese isn't good enough to peg a number down yet... :0

I can't believe Shane Williams! Ha! Fair play to the little guy.

matthew8

So the Barbarians game wasn't really Shane Williams' last pro game?

Fishooks12

funky penguin wrote: »

Yeah, it's professional alright, and I think it's potentially more than S15 depending on your status ( like te Brad Thorns, George Smiths and now Shane Williams' of the rugby world!). Don't have a figure though. Did a quick search but my Japanese isn't good enough to peg a number down yet... :0

I can't believe Shane Williams! Ha! Fair play to the little guy.

Yep, although it significantly reduces the amount of people he can accuse of racism

funky penguin

wonton wrote: »

any idea if the japanese dude that joined with stade francais has gotten any game time?

and did you see shane williams is off to japan too?

youd think all these players moving there might generate some interest.

No idea about the guy in stade, didn't know about it!

The thing about these guys moving here is that they public just has no idea who they are in the first place, and rugby isn't big enough to generate enough hype about them (in comparison to beckam in LA for example).

However, the world cup, if marketed well, will generate HUGE interest. If hype is created to a certain level, Japan will follow. I've already been telling kids about it, and played a bit of tag rugby with the baseball squad. They picked it up fairly quickly.

errlloyd

Geordan Murphy, Lewis Moody and Leon Lloyd going to a bit of a cyprus rugby fund raiser next month. Pretty sound of the lads.

http://www.facebook.com/events/137446766379060/

KenSwee

Deleted User wrote: »

after seeing the Finnish jersey, I've been thinking about moving across!

I already own it. Didn't get me a run out though!

Beery Eyed

It doesn't get a lot of coverage obviously but the IRB Junior World Trophy (the next tier down from the JWC) is up & running now with a few interesting results.

http://www.irb.com/jwrt/index.html

USA started with a good win over Tonga. Also Chile, of all teams, beat Russia by a street (I must admit I was completely ignorant of any type of rugby setup in Chile before this).

Georgia beat Canada & Japan beat Zimbabwe in what sounded like a thriller.

Good to see the underage teams of the next tier of nations getting this type of exposure to competitive international rugby early on.

I had heard mention that the bottom placed team from this years JWC goes down to this tournament, so presumably there's a promotion place available to the winner which is a great incentive as well.

Come on Chile!!

CatFromHue

Beery Eyed wrote: »

I had heard mention that the bottom placed team from this years JWC goes down to this tournament, so presumably there's a promotion place available to the winner which is a great incentive as well.

Yeah who ever loses the game between Italy and Fiji will finish last and so next years team will play in the Junior World Trophy.

hardCopy

Beery Eyed wrote: »

It doesn't get a lot of coverage obviously but the IRB Junior World Trophy (the next tier down from the JWC) is up & running now with a few interesting results.

http://www.irb.com/jwrt/index.html

USA started with a good win over Tonga. Also Chile, of all teams, beat Russia by a street (I must admit I was completely ignorant of any type of rugby setup in Chile before this).

Georgia beat Canada & Japan beat Zimbabwe in what sounded like a thriller.

Good to see the underage teams of the next tier of nations getting this type of exposure to competitive international rugby early on.

I had heard mention that the bottom placed team from this years JWC goes down to this tournament, so presumably there's a promotion place available to the winner which is a great incentive as well.

Come on Chile!!

Went on a post junior cup trip to South America in 2000, the schools standard wasn't far off our own (although we were never very good) but seemed to be based around private international schools.

WeeBushy

funky penguin wrote: »

No idea about the guy in stade, didn't know about it!

The thing about these guys moving here is that they public just has no idea who they are in the first place, and rugby isn't big enough to generate enough hype about them (in comparison to beckam in LA for example).

However, the world cup, if marketed well, will generate HUGE interest. If hype is created to a certain level, Japan will follow. I've already been telling kids about it, and played a bit of tag rugby with the baseball squad. They picked it up fairly quickly.

You might be a good person to ask - how does Japan afford a professional league? Quite a few SH players go there for a pay cheque, but if the game is so small nationally, where does the money come from to pay them? And are the game played in front of one man and his dog?

It's a league that's always intrigued me.

ormond lad

WeeBushy wrote: »

You might be a good person to ask - how does Japan afford a professional league? Quite a few SH players go there for a pay cheque, but if the game is so small nationally, where does the money come from to pay them? And are the game played in front of one man and his dog?

It's a league that's always intrigued me.

AFAIK the money behind te pro league is from big companies like coca cola, toshiba, toyota, honda who sponsor most of the top jap club teams.

Japan has fairly good playing numbers and there's more people playing rugby in japan than most of the traditional top 10 countrys. See here and the game is growing at an enormous rate over there afaik

WeeBushy

ormond lad wrote: »

AFAIK the money behind te pro league is from big companies like coca cola, toshiba, toyota, honda who sponsor most of the top jap club teams.

Japan has fairly good playing numbers and there's more people playing rugby in japan than most of the traditional top 10 countrys. See here and the game is growing at an enormous rate over there afaik

I wonder if there are any stats available for attendances and viewing numbers, because they're not going to fund a league that's not giving them a return for their money in advertisement etc.

funky penguin

I think it has to do with Japanese mentality more than anything else.

First thing to understand is that the population of Japan is HUGE. Tokyo alone has 22 million people. The country as a whole is about 130 million or so.

So, even if there is a niche market, the audience for it is still going to be relatively big.

The rugby audiences (and clubs) as scattered around the country too, near the heavily populated areas, especially Tokyo. This, of course, is completely understandable. Where I am, it's virtually non-existant. League games just aren't played close to me.....and I live in a city of over 1/2 million people.

The Japanese punter will also gladly pay a lot of money for entertainment. There's a saying that all they do is make money and spend it asap. I have no idea what prices are for tickets, but it would not surprise me in the slightest if they were expensive.

Also, as Ormond pointed out, the teams have no problems in getting sponsorship. And Japan absolutely loves a brand, so they embrace it.

JonnyF

The Yanks had 17,000 people turn up to watch them play Italy in Houston on Saturday night. They lost 30-10 with two red cards unfortunately but they're playing Ireland next summer so will be hoping for an even better turn out then.

Interesting piece in the Guardian where Nigel Melville says they're 2-3 years away from a pro league

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/jun/24/american-sports-fans-warming-rugby

KenSwee

I'd like to put a question out.

What do you think is necessary to put a tier 2 or 3 country into tier 1?

My suggestion would be to set up a buddy system where one tier 1 country would provide access of it's organisation to a tier 2 or better, a tier 3 country. It could be in the form of regular meetings with both organisations, financial help, tours, player exchanges or even sponsorship. Although in these times, it most unlikely given that the most of benefit would probably be one way.

I'm sure others have better ideas.