BBC iPlayer: The Paras (1982)

r3nu4l

I don't know how many of you can view BBCiPlayer but for those who can there is a real gem on the site right now as part of the "Army: A very British Institution" series from BBC4.

The Paras is seven episodes that was filmed in 1982 and follows 480 company through their training and onto the streets of NI.

What amazes me is the candidness of the show, you can be sure that today the programme would be far more glossy and far more promotional. This is simply a 'this-is-what-happens-during-their-training' show. It shows the boredom of the men, their utter exhaustion and briefly explores the concept that troops trained to be hyper-aggressive are not really suited to the streets and fields of Northern Ireland.

I was pleasantly surprised by this and anyone who read Michael Asher's 'Shoot to Kill' about his time in the Paras will recognise a lot of what he talked about in that book as the documentary was filmed just a few years after Asher joined 2 Para.

Well worth watching for anyone who can see it.

EDIT: It's even worth watching even (or perhaps especially) if you are not a fan of the British army...

Delancey

IIRC one of the training Sergeants from that series was subsequently killed in a shoot-out with the IRA - he was serving in a shadowy plainclothes unit that was involved in several controversial shootings.

cruasder777

Delancey wrote: »

IIRC correctly one of the training Sergeants from that series was subsequently killed in a shoot-out with the IRA - he was serving in a shadowy plainclothes unit that was involved in several controversial shootings.

L/CPL Jones.

Derek Bird who murdered 12 people in Cumbria a couple of years ago was involved in the same operation, he also served in UK SOF and captured Francis Hughes.

Delancey

cruasder777 wrote: »

L/CPL Jones.

Derek Bird who murdered 12 people in Cumbria a couple of years ago was involved in the same operation, he also served in UK SOF and captured Francis Hughes.

Is it just me or did the British media ' play down ' that aspect of Derek Bird ? I didn't know that he was even ex-army much less involved in undercover operations .

cruasder777

Delancey wrote: »

Is it just me or did the British media ' play down ' that aspect of Derek Bird ? I didn't know that he was even ex-army much less involved in undercover operations .

Actually it was Sgt Slater, L/CPL Jones also in the programme was killed on another op with the SAS

According to wiki leaks Bird served in UK SOF, it has never been reported in the media, due to a D notice to protect national security.



http://wikispooks.com/wiki/Document:Why_damaged_covert_operator_Derek_Bird_finally_went_on_the_rampage_in_Cumbria


The article was originally published on the "Cod****" blog on 6 September 2010 [1] and is reproduced here in full.

It's central hypothesis is that the background of Cumbria gunman Derek Bird included about 10 years service in the British Army; that some of that service involved Special Forces operations; that Bird was involved in the Capture of IRA man Francis Hughes and the special forces operation that killed Francis Bradley in the cold-blooded fashion typical of such operations; and that Bird was in Fact the anonymous 'Soldier C' of the original abandoned inquest into Bradley's killing, who fired the fatal shots at close range whilst Bradley was lying on his back wounded.

RMD

Don't have access to iPlayer but interesting they discuss the fact of the Para's suitability to serve in Northern Ireland. For a conventional war they are more than suitable, hence the reputation they've built for success on the battlefield but in a theatre like Northern Ireland where they're fighting guerilla warfare IMO they weren't. I think it's more than sheer coincidence that 2 of the worst atrocities committed by the BA in Northern Ireland involved the Para's, being the Ballymurphy Massacre and Bloody Sunday. They were simply too aggressive for their role.

cruasder777

RMD wrote: »

Don't have access to iPlayer but interesting they discuss the fact of the Para's suitability to serve in Northern Ireland. For a conventional war they are more than suitable, hence the reputation they've built for success on the battlefield but in a theatre like Northern Ireland where they're fighting guerilla warfare IMO they weren't. I think it's more than sheer coincidence that 2 of the worst atrocities committed by the BA in Northern Ireland involved the Para's, being the Ballymurphy Massacre and Bloody Sunday. They were simply too aggressive for their role.

That's debatable, in areas they deployed to PIRA attacks went down. They constantly harassed known players 24/7.

Obviously that brings into question civil rights issues, but they were very effective in countering the PIRA in South Armagh etc.

I suppose the same question could be asked of the French Foreign Legion in Algeria etc.

Local-womanizer

You can watch it On YouTube if you don't have I player, they have it all in a playlist

RMD

cruasder777 wrote: »

That's debatable, in areas they deployed to PIRA attacks went down. They constantly harassed known players 24/7.

Obviously that brings into question civil rights issues, but they were very effective in countering the PIRA in South Armagh etc.

I suppose the same question could be asked of the French Foreign Legion in Algeria etc.

True, but then again their actions also provided some of the greatest propaganda victory possible for the PIRA in Bloody Sunday. They were effective in countering them in South Armagh, but they also helped swell the ranks hugely.

tac foley

Bird a former soldier?

In your dreams.

Read - http://www.arrse.co.uk/waltenkommando/183227-derek-bird-cumbrian-nutter-one-them-2.html

tac, who WAS a former soldier 'up there'.

OS119

i'm literally shocked that Crusader - who absolutely is not Polaris555 on polly.ie - has ripped off some crap from wikispooks.

wikispooks, really?

i must say though, if he's gullable enough to believe anything he reads on that cesspit, its no wonder he believes that the RAF Regiment is one of the 'big three'...

case closed.

cruasder777

OS119 wrote: »

i'm literally shocked that Crusader - who absolutely is not Polaris555 on polly.ie - has ripped off some crap from wikispooks.

wikispooks, really?

i must say though, if he's gullable enough to believe anything he reads on that cesspit, its no wonder he believes that the RAF Regiment is one of the 'big three'...

case closed.

Its an intresting article worth posting, in the context of the previous post to it.

I had an ex girlfriend who served in 14 Int coy, very strange lady, you would never have guessed her background in a million years, remember operators were trained to be as unmilitary in apperance and personality as possible.

Without doubt leading double lives creates big psychological problems in some, as the personalities(real and the new one) end up competing.

OS119

cruasder777 wrote: »

Its an intresting article worth posting, in the context of the previous post to it...

no, its not - its drivel from a conspiraloon website that sites no actual evidence for any of its claims. does it claim to know his dates of service, his Regiment/Trade, his service number? no, it doesn't - so without these very basic facts, its very unlikely they could possibly know where, when and in what role he served. if, in fact, he actually did.

when/if you find such claims made by a reputable news organisations - you know, organisations that won't write stuff until they have some credible evidence of such - then by all means say 'is this an issue?', but this is just drivel on the same level as ChemTrails, 911Holograms and lizards.

munchkin_utd

Theres a whole load of those paras episodes now on the iplayer.
including the last episode when they are on active duty in Fermanagh
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p00k7vwv/The_Paras_Down_to_Earth/

its also on you tube thankfully for those of us outsde of the UK.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Rm1Yc4omAY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YT4zJolEl8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsmiyxyInnI&feature=relmfu

The checkpoint in the second part is actually not a cross border checkpoint at all but is well into fermanagh on the only crossing of the Erne between Belturbet in Cavan and Enniskillen and is now a carpark and reststop on the shores of Lough Erne.
https://maps.google.de/maps?q=fermanagh&hl=de&ie=UTF8&ll=54.199906,-7.493019&spn=0.036651,0.222988&hnear=Fermanagh,+Vereinigtes+K%C3%B6nigreich&t=h&z=13&layer=c&cbll=54.199919,-7.493006&panoid=iyQgcKbPll3rWvDy0Q5x5w&cbp=11,44.64,,0,9.31

I cant think of any other permanent checkpoint (aside from security zones like Bessbrook) exclusively for internal Northern Ireland traffic. In one sense its strange they had such a checkpoint but on the other hand I suppose they benefit from cutting the county in half and for little effort could monitor any movements from one side of South Fermanagh to the other.

thecommietommy

cruasder777 wrote: »

L/CPL Jones.

Derek Bird who murdered 12 people in Cumbria a couple of years ago was involved in the same operation, he also served in UK SOF and captured Francis Hughes.

A badly wounded Francis Hughes was caught the next day, I'm not sure what regiment but it certainly wasn't the SAS. Also Hughes wounded another SAS man in the gun fight while the other IRA man escaped unharmed. See the chapter on Hughes in Ten Me Dead.

thecommietommy

cruasder777 wrote: »

That's debatable, in areas they deployed to PIRA attacks went down. They constantly harassed known players 24/7.

Obviously that brings into question civil rights issues, but they were very effective in countering the PIRA in South Armagh etc.

I suppose the same question could be asked of the French Foreign Legion in Algeria etc.

They exact opposite was the case, no regiment since the Black and Tans incited more hatred and revenge against the British army than the tower block thrash that call themselves the Parachute regiment. Their presence in any part of the six counties was like a red rag to a bull, attacks went up and they never served in NI without the IRA killing and maiming some of them. And far from " constantly harassed known players ", any nationalist could be a " known player " as far as the tower block thrash were concerned as the people of Derry, Ballymurphy etc learned only too well.

cruasder777

thecommietommy wrote: »

They exact opposite was the case, no regiment since the Black and Tans incited more hatred and revenge against the British army than the tower block thrash that call themselves the Parachute regiment. Their presence in any part of the six counties was like a red rag to a bull, attacks went up and they never served in NI without the IRA killing and maiming some of them. And far from " constantly harassed known players ", any nationalist could be a " known player " as far as the tower block thrash were concerned as the people of Derry, Ballymurphy etc learned only too well.

Are the people in Divis tower block on the Falls rd trash as well Tommy ?

You need to engage your brain before opening your mouth.

Thank you for getting upset on behalf of events that you most likely not even born when they happened.

Get a life, its more fun.


Attacks actually went down, unlike some units the Paras went out on patrol 24/7 and knocked people up at 4 am, known players were constantly harassed at home, in bars where every they went, they were challenged to fist fights, told they were pussies etc in bars they were drinking in, that's why Sinn Fein demanded their withdrawl and they got the most complaints.....because they were not very politically correct but effective.


The Coalisland riots stared after a Para patrol went into a local bar and challenged local PIRA supporters to a fist fight, after an IED had cost one of the patrol his leg, locals had come out of their homes laughing, in the incident locals said they were assaulted and their cars damaged.

The next week a patrol of the KOSB had a similar punch up, they put down their weapons for a fair fight with some local IRA supporters, but got turned over by a mob who joined in. Local PIRA members tried to steal the weapons they had put down, a Para patrol was called in they went into the bar, there was another brawl and shot 3 local PIRA members who had stolen a machine gun from the KOSB patrol were shot.

There was an enquiry and a Lt and 3 Paras CO was dismissed. some members of the patrol charged but acquitted and the tour cut short, but not before some local PIRA members had got some serious beatings.

It wasn't me!

cruasder777 wrote: »

Are the people in Divis tower block on the Falls rd trash as well Tommy ?

You need to engage your brain before opening your mouth.

Thank you for getting upset on behalf of events that you most likely not even born when they happened.

Get a life, its more fun.


Attacks actually went down, unlike some units the Paras went out on patrol 24/7 and knocked people up at 4 am, known players were constantly harassed at home, in bars where every they went, they were challenged to fist fights, told they were pussies etc in bars they were drinking in, that's why Sinn Fein demanded their withdrawl and they got the most complaints.....because they were not very politically correct but effective.


The Coalisland riots stared after a Para patrol went into a local bar and challenged local PIRA supporters to a fist fight, after an IED had cost one of the patrol his leg, locals had come out of their homes laughing, in the incident locals said they were assaulted and their cars damaged.

The next week a patrol of the KOSB had a similar punch up, they put down their weapons for a fair fight with some local IRA supporters, but got turned over by a mob who joined in. Local PIRA members tried to steal the weapons they had put down, a Para patrol was called in they went into the bar, there was another brawl and shot 3 local PIRA members who had stolen a machine gun from the KOSB patrol were shot.

There was an enquiry and a Lt and 3 Paras CO was dismissed. some members of the patrol charged but acquitted and the tour cut short, but not before some local PIRA members had got some serious beatings.

That sounds like the most unprofessional pile of horse muck I've heard in a long while. And you sound proud of this. Pathetic. I'm no nationalist, have a lot of respect for the Paras, but that's crap.

cruasder777

It wasn't me! wrote: »

That sounds like the most unprofessional pile of horse muck I've heard in a long while. And you sound proud of this. Pathetic. I'm no nationalist, have a lot of respect for the Paras, but that's crap.

Is that right.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Coalisland_riots
Provisional IRA attack

On 12 May 1992, a unit of the Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) East Tyrone Brigade launched a bomb attack on a British Army patrol near the republican stronghold of Cappagh, County Tyrone. One soldier of the Parachute Regiment, Alistair Hogdson,[3] lost both legs as a result. The landmine was described in an IRA statement as an "anti-personnel device".[4] This incident triggered a rampage by members of the Parachute Regiment in the nearby, predominantly nationalist town of Coalisland.[4][5] The IRA attack has been described as a "provocation" tactic, devised to produce a troops overreaction and made them unpopular among local residentes.[6] The deployment of the paratroopers, which began in April[1][7] had already been criticized by republican activist Bernadette Devlin McAliskey, who denounced the rising number of beatings, shootings and damages to property carried out by these troops.[8] Ken Maginnis, then-Member of Parliament for the area, called for the withdrawal of the regiment, after receiving a large number of complaints about their behaviour.[4][9]
[edit]The confrontation

[edit]12 May
Two hours after the IRA attack, members of the regiment sealed off the town of Coalisland, ten miles east of Cappagh. According to a Social Democratic and Labour Party politician, the soldiers fabricated a bogus bomb warning, while the RUC claimed that the operation began when a joint patrol was stoned by the crowd.[10] Two pubs were ransacked by the troops[11] and a number of civilian cars were damaged. Several people were allegedly hit with sticks. Following this, a lieutenant was suspended from duty[4] and the regiment was removed from patrol duties in Coalisland.[12]
[edit]17 May
On the evening of 17 May, a fist-fight began at Lineside Road, where a group of young men were having a drink. A passing four-man patrol of the King's Own Scottish Borderers (KOSB) regiment was defied to a 'boxing match' by the residents; apparently a common practice according to Bernadette McAliskey.[8] The soldiers set aside their weapons and engaged the youths who, after a brief clash, forced the soldiers to take shelter at the local Army/RUC base. The official claim was that the patrol was attacked by a mob. In the melée, a rifle and a light machine gun were stolen. The rifle was later recovered nearby.[12] Two KOSB soldiers had to be hospitalized.[4] The Parachute Regiment was called to the scene again, and at 8:30 PM, a major riot started outside Rossmore pub. The soldiers claimed that one of their colleagues was isolated and dragged by the crowd. Some witnesses claimed the paratroopers were in a frenzy, showing their guns and inviting the civilians to take them. Suddenly, shots were fired by the troops —first into the air and then towards the people outside the pub. Three civilians were rushed to hospital in Dungannon with gunshot wounds, while the soldiers returned to their barracks.[12] Another four civilians suffered minor injuries.[11]

It wasn't me!

cruasder777 wrote: »

Is that right.

Yes, absolutely. You think the account you then tack onto that illustrates professionalism?

cruasder777

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Yes, absolutely. You think the account you then tack onto that illustrates professionalism?

Real life soldering in an environment where paratroopers have do deal with a hostile civilian and sometimes armed population, Paras are not cops.

If they never had that reaction after civilians laughed at one of their men who had his legs blown off, they would not have the passion to win on the battlefield against the odds.

The unit with the second most complaints were the RM commandos.....no coincidence.

Give me a definition of professionalism ?

It wasn't me!

cruasder777 wrote: »

Real life soldering in an environment where paratroopers have do deal with a hostile civilian and sometimes armed population, Paras are not cops.

If they never had that reaction after civilians laughed at one of their men who had his legs blown off, they would not have the passion to win on the battlefield against the odds.

The unit with the second most complaints were the RM commandos.....no coincidence.

Give me a definition of professionalism ?

I know mine wouldn't entail engaging civilians in fúcking fist fights, that's for sure. That's extremely poor, and there's no excuse.

cruasder777

It wasn't me! wrote: »

I know mine wouldn't entail engaging civilians in fúcking fist fights, that's for sure. That's extremely poor, and there's no excuse.

Then again "yours" would not be up to tabbing across the Falklands with up to 120lbs of kit, sleeping out doors in sleet and rain for a month without cover, taking the boots of dead enemy, cause yours are so crap and fighting an enemy who held the high ground and outnumbered you.


But I'm sure you would be very well mannered to civilians.

The Paras are only military unit I know where officers, NCOs men can sort out disputes in the gym with the gloves on, I like that.

You don't just switch an aggressive fighting spirit on and off.

It wasn't me!

cruasder777 wrote: »

Then again "yours" would not be up to tabbing across the Falklands with up to 120lbs of kit, sleeping out doors in sleet and rain for a month without cover, taking the boots of dead enemy, cause yours are so crap and fighting an enemy who held the high ground and outnumbered you.


But I'm sure you would be very well mannered to civilians.

The Paras are only military unit I know where officers, NCOs men can sort out disputes in the gym with the gloves on, I like that.

You don't just switch an aggressive fighting spirit on and off.

You can do all that and not have fist fights with civilians. Anyone who says you can't is a complete tool.

cruasder777

It wasn't me! wrote: »

You can do all that and not have fist fights with civilians. Anyone who says you can't is a complete tool.

...So what would you do if your mate had his legs blown off and civilians were standing there laughing at him ?

You would stand there and smile ?

Lemming

cruasder777 wrote: »

...So what would you do if your mate had his legs blown off and civilians were standing there laughing at him ?

You would stand there and smile ?

Tell us what you would do crusader.

r3nu4l

Jeez, talk about off topic...

Anyone want to talk about the documentary?

Lemming

r3nu4l wrote: »

Jeez, talk about off topic...

Anyone want to talk about the documentary?

I watched it a while ago. Quite enjoyed it. Yes it's a couple of decades old but still relevant. The episode showing those who successfully completed P Coy & subsequent parachute training to earn their wings getting deployed to N.Ireland touched on something I hadn't expected it to for a tv documentary made when the N.I. troubles were still at their height; namely the boredom that the troops had to combat and how such soldiers - who are trained & encouraged to be extra aggressive - are perhaps really not suited to being garrison troops or a police force.

Also liked the focus the documentary gave in context of recruits training to be potentially sent directly into a conflict [the Falklands kicked off during recruit training] as replacements and the attitude of the recruits, and the DS, to the prospect.

Was also good to see that one lad pass through nothing but sheer mental effort & stubborn refusal to give in, showing that being an 'elite' (I hate using that over-used word but bear with me to make a point) soldier isn't all about being a gym bunny; the DS themselves did say it would have been "very easy" to fail him had they pushed, but he didn't quit.

RMD

cruasder777 wrote: »

...So what would you do if your mate had his legs blown off and civilians were standing there laughing at him ?

You would stand there and smile ?

Did it ever cross your mind they could have been happy to see his leg blown off because they had to put up with this shít from the Paras? When fighting an opponent who's backbone is created by civilian support and funding perhaps it's not the smartest to antagonize said civilians?

Maoltuile

I found the accompanying BBC hardback book of the series (oh yes) in a second-hand bookshop some time ago, so I'm eager to catch the original TV series - which I missed at the time (too young!).

Theres a lot of familiar themes in the story of 480 for anyone who's been a recruit or an NCO. Not at all like the glitzy slo-mo rock-soundtracked cr*p that would be broadcast today.

Thanks to the OP for bring this to our attention. Now I've got to figure out how to watch BBC iPlayer...

r3nu4l

Well this is weird!!! Only today I was at Ickworth House (a national trust property in Suffolk) and in the bowels of the house is a secondhand book shop...guess what I just bought for £2.50...

Yup, Frank Hilton's 'The Paras'.

It's the first (possibly only) edition of the book and on pages 244-248 there are photos of 480 platoon and a listing of what they were currently doing at the time of printing of the book in 1983. Philip Tattum was listed as being in 3 Para in the book but anyone who has watched the series will know there was a follow-up to him.

r3nu4l

It's definitely not a show that would be broadcast today. As sanitised as the show was then it would be far worse now with nothing but spin attached. I'm glad it was filmed when it was and how it was. While it removed a lot of the day-to-day brutality, it highlighted the utter boredom (as Lemming said) of operating in NI and of army life in general for fighting regiments during 'peacetime'. I'm glad too that it chose to keep the focus on 480 platoon and leave the Falklands in the background rather than bringing it to the front all the time.

whitelines

RMD wrote: »

Did it ever cross your mind they could have been happy to see his leg blown off because they had to put up with this shít from the Paras? When fighting an opponent who's backbone is created by civilian support and funding perhaps it's not the smartest to antagonize said civilians?

You assume said 'civilians' would have withheld support for PIRA whatever The Paras had done.

Lemming

r3nu4l wrote: »

Well this is weird!!! Only today I was at Ickworth House (a national trust property in Suffolk) and in the bowels of the house is a secondhand book shop...guess what I just bought for £2.50...

Yup, Frank Hilton's 'The Paras'.

It's the first (possibly only) edition of the book and on pages 244-248 there are photos of 480 platoon and a listing of what they were currently doing at the time of printing of the book in 1983. Philip Tattum was listed as being in 3 Para in the book but anyone who has watched the series will know there was a follow-up to him.

There was another book on the Paras from back in the late 80s/early 90s that I'll need to go find the name of. My brother bought it and I remember constantly reading it in fascination when was about nine or ten years of age. Unfortunately the book is in the family home and I'm .. well .. in another country so no popping over to look for it alas.

It was a paperback format book, maroon bordering/backing with the picture of a lad from 2 para (blue flash was visible) on the front wearing his maroon lid, looking down his SA80 - I think it was also posed in woodland setting.

johnny_doyle

I was in 465 platoon, recruit company in 1980. Some interesting characters. Quite a few Irish.

Watched the series when it came out. Thought it was fairly good and have a copy of the book somewhere.

thecommietommy

whitelines wrote: »

You assume said 'civilians' would have withheld support for PIRA whatever The Paras had done.

True enough, I suppose other regiments as well as the RUC, UDR, can take credit with their thuggery and provacation which resulted in yer man a getting his leg blown off and people allegedly slagging them about it.

whitelines

thecommietommy wrote: »

True enough, I suppose other regiments as well as the RUC, UDR, can take credit with their thuggery and provacation which resulted in yer man a getting his leg blown off and people allegedly slagging them about it.

Yes, there was a conflict with much hatred on both sides of The NI community. The laugh is where people presume some sort of softly softly approach could have forced PIRA to the negotiating table. Many RC 'civilians' aided and abetted PIRA in any way the could as many PIRA militants have testified over the years. The idea that these types could have been won over is simply laughable. The only way to break a determined clandestine insurrection is to deliver such pain and hardship to the militants' host community, that said community finally asks the militants (who spring from said community) to call it a day.

Rawhead

whitelines wrote: »

Yes, there was a conflict with much hatred on both sides of The NI community. The laugh is where people presume some sort of softly softly approach could have forced PIRA to the negotiating table. Many RC 'civilians' aided and abetted PIRA in any way the could as many PIRA militants have testified over the years. The idea that these types could have been won over is simply laughable. The only way to break a determined clandestine insurrection is to deliver such pain and hardship to the militants' host community, that said community finally asks the militants (who spring from said community) to call it a day.

Or they could always just bugger off home and leave said community alone.

whitelines

Rawhead wrote: »

Or they could always just bugger off home and leave said community alone.

In the case of The UK armed forces, said community begged them to come in.

Lemming

johnny_doyle wrote: »

I was in 465 platoon, recruit company in 1980. Some interesting characters. Quite a few Irish.

With apologies to r3nu4l for the OT post.

Johnny, would you mind my asking what was the attitude towards Irishmen both through recruit training & within the Paras in the early 1980s given that the troubles were very much in full-swing & appearing to escalate further.

Obviously no army is one big happy family and personal attitudes of individual recruits/soldiers aside, was there any real animosity shown or attempts to isolate/exclude the Irish recruits - either from other recruits or the DS - to the point of "encouraging" them to quit, beyond what the DS would typically do to weed out those not up to the task?

r3nu4l

Not quite as off-topic as yo might think Lemming. There were two guys from Dublin in 480 platoon (I only found this out from the book) but they don't appear to have made it very far and there's only a brief mention in the book so yeah, it would be good to know what attitudes were like at that time.

cruasder777

r3nu4l wrote: »

Not quite as off-topic as yo might think Lemming. There were two guys from Dublin in 480 platoon (I only found this out from the book) but they don't appear to have made it very far and there's only a brief mention in the book so yeah, it would be good to know what attitudes were like at that time.

There was alot of friction for Irish soldiers serving in the BA, especially in the 70s and 80s because of the NI situation, some were given the cold shoulder to the point of quitting, there was also friction between the Irish Guards, who were called bullet dodgers for not serving in NI and other regiments. Quite a few punch ups between the Irish Guards and other regiments. Some NCOs were very anti Irish.

Even this guy got alot of hassle serving in the Paras in the 70s.

http://www.worldendurancechampion.co.uk/biography.aspx

Paddy Doyle

At the age of 20 yrs he joined the Parachute Regiment and was awarded champion recruit for outstanding fitness levels and determination, he then became a member with 2 Para, passing the 6 week course for patrols / reconnaissance company. Whilst serving with the Paras, Doyle represented the Battalion in army cross country competitions. He also was a regular visitor to the army prison cells for disorderly conduct fighting with Military Police and other soldiers from other units.

thecommietommy

cruasder777 wrote: »

There was alot of friction for Irish soldiers serving in the BA, especially in the 70s and 80s because of the NI situation, some were given the cold shoulder to the point of quitting, there was also friction between the Irish Guards, who were called bullet dodgers for not serving in NI and other regiments. Quite a few punch ups between the Irish Guards and other regiments. Some NCOs were very anti Irish.

Even this guy got alot of hassle serving in the Paras in the 70s.

http://www.worldendurancechampion.co.uk/biography.aspx

Paddy Doyle

At the age of 20 yrs he joined the Parachute Regiment and was awarded champion recruit for outstanding fitness levels and determination, he then became a member with 2 Para, passing the 6 week course for patrols / reconnaissance company. Whilst serving with the Paras, Doyle represented the Battalion in army cross country competitions. He also was a regular visitor to the army prison cells for disorderly conduct fighting with Military Police and other soldiers from other units.

Sounds like Paddy Blair Mayne

thecommietommy

whitelines wrote: »

Yes, there was a conflict with much hatred on both sides of The NI community. The laugh is where people presume some sort of softly softly approach could have forced PIRA to the negotiating table. Many RC 'civilians' aided and abetted PIRA in any way the could as many PIRA militants have testified over the years. The idea that these types could have been won over is simply laughable. The only way to break a determined clandestine insurrection is to deliver such pain and hardship to the militants' host community, that said community finally asks the militants (who spring from said community) to call it a day.

Well an IRA supporter could say the exact same regarding Enniskillen, Birmingham etc which I would totally disagree with.

But are you trying to imply that men watching a football match in Loughinisland or Xmas shoppers on Talbot St Dublin were somehow the "host communtiy" and "such pain and hardship" legitimately had to be infliicted on these innocent people ?

whitelines

thecommietommy wrote: »

Well an IRA supporter could say the exact same regarding Enniskillen, Birmingham etc which I would totally disagree with.

But are you trying to imply that men watching a football match in Loughinisland or Xmas shoppers on Talbot St Dublin were somehow the "host communtiy" and "such pain and hardship" legitimately had to be infliicted on these innocent people ?

There's different means of applying 'pain and hardship' to a terrorist host community. It can be applied legally through internment, saturating whole areas with troops, repeated search and seize operations, curfews, and can advance through to the destruction of properties that might or where used for terrorist purposes. There are many, many, more oppressive techniques that can be utilised for this purpose - most beyond the scope of what The UK State was prepared to countenance within NI.

As for Loughinisland and Dublin, those operations were not carried out by state forces, but by militant Loyalists. Their view would have been that they added something extra to the process, going further than the legal forces of The Crown, in an attempt to undermine support for PIRA within the broader Nationalist community across The Island of Ireland.

Certainly, within an international context, the use of paramilitary 'death squads' to terrorise insurgents and their supporters would be the norm. Generally though, such auxiliaries would fall fully within state control. In NI, for a number of reasons, Crown forces were unable to act in a similar manner and as a result forces outside state control felt obliged, for ideological reasons, to carry out such operations themselves.

Rawhead

whitelines wrote: »

There's different means of applying 'pain and hardship' to a terrorist host community. It can be applied legally through internment, saturating whole areas with troops, repeated search and seize operations, curfews, and can advance through to the destruction of properties that might or where used for terrorist purposes. There are many, many, more oppressive techniques that can be utilised for this purpose - most beyond the scope of what The UK State was prepared to countenance within NI.

As for Loughinisland and Dublin, those operations were not carried out by state forces, but by militant Loyalists. Their view would have been that they added something extra to the process, going further than the legal forces of The Crown, in an attempt to undermine support for PIRA within the broader Nationalist community across The Island of Ireland.

Certainly, within an international context, the use of paramilitary 'death squads' to terrorise insurgents and their supporters would be the norm. Generally though, such auxiliaries would fall fully within state control. In NI, for a number of reasons, Crown forces were unable to act in a similar manner and as a result forces outside state control felt obliged, for ideological reasons, to carry out such operations themselves.

I think it's generally accepted now that the model for how not to deal with a civilian population is the model used by the British in the early years of the troubles. As you mentioned in an earlier post the catholic community welcomed the army with open arms and viewed them as saviors against the excesses of the unionist establishment.

The Germans failed against the partisans on the eastern front despite having a 100/1 policy against their soldiers being killed.
The Israelis demolish the family homes of suicide bombers and all it does is create more.
The French in Algeria, the CIA in Vietnam, the Russians in Afghanistan, NATO in A'stan the list goes on and on. If a determined guerrilla force has widespread public support then you will not succeed.

The reason the British eventually cornered the Provo's was down to old fashioned intelligence work and infiltration. Scared 20 year old squaddies beating up cider swigging teens didn't matter a fook and only created more recruits for the provo's.

whitelines

Rawhead wrote: »

I think it's generally accepted now that the model for how not to deal with a civilian population is the model used by the British in the early years of the troubles. As you mentioned in an earlier post the catholic community welcomed the army with open arms and viewed them as saviors against the excesses of the unionist establishment.

The Germans failed against the partisans on the eastern front despite having a 100/1 policy against their soldiers being killed.
The Israelis demolish the family homes of suicide bombers and all it does is create more.
The French in Algeria, the CIA in Vietnam, the Russians in Afghanistan, NATO in A'stan the list goes on and on. If a determined guerrilla force has widespread public support then you will not succeed.

The reason the British eventually cornered the Provo's was down to old fashioned intelligence work and infiltration. Scared 20 year old squaddies beating up cider swigging teens didn't matter a fook and only created more recruits for the provo's.

I don't accept that UK State Forces were overly oppressive at any time during 'the troubles'. In any case, it all comes down to political goals. The examples you offer all have one thing in common - they are examples of foreign armies attempting to pacify a population that is totally opposed to them. In order to succeed in such instances, vast resources must be deployed and a high price must be paid in both blood and treasure AND the proposed outcome must be worth it.

Let's take a look at each of your examples:

The Germans failed against the partisans on the eastern front despite having a 100/1 policy against their soldiers being killed.

The Germans didn't fail against partisans, it was the regular Soviet Forces that drove them back. Had The Germans defeated the regular Soviet Forces, then they would have pacified Russia over time, by ANY means necessary (settling Russia was strategic to The Germans and being in a constant state of insurgency suited Nazi ideology). Pacification had yet to be applied in a hoped for post war environment.

The Israelis demolish the family homes of suicide bombers and all it does is create more.

Because The Israelis have no obvious political goal. If they wish for a Greater Israel, then Palestinians must be driven out (as The Serbs did to The Muslims in Bosnia). If security is their requirement then they must expel all Arabs from Israel's borders and not allow them to return. If accommodation is their aim, then they must negotiate. They have no obvious political goals, so their ad-hoc counter insurgency tactics are pointless. In any case, bar negotiation, they are unable to apply the necessary pressure to achieve alternative outcomes.

The French in Algeria

Initially, The French did achieve desired results by applying overwhelming force against fighters and sympathisers alike, with the view to keeping Algeria French. In that sense oppression succeeded. De Gaulle changed the rules - Algeria wasn't worth keeping as a colony because it had started to cost France money.

the CIA in Vietnam,

In this case, oppression appeared to fail. US liberal democracy and it's associated lifestyle choices meant the sinews of war did not exist.

the Russians in Afghanistan

In this case, oppression appeared to fail for financial reasons.

NATO in A'stan

Jury out. Local allies for NATO do exist and have been used against The Taliban aggressively.

So, to conclude, the use of counter terror has a mixed outcome. In some cases it has worked and in others it hasn't. But these are examples of foreign armies attempting to pacify a population that is totally opposed to them. In may other cases such as in NI, it is an internal security problem that is being addressed and in these cases the use of counter terror has achieved results (such as in south and central America). Obviously, if the majority of the population in such cases is pro-state (such as in NI), then the chances of counter terror achieving pacification become much greater.

Ultimately, it comes down to political goals. What is the future for the insurgents host population to be? Are they to be pushed out? If so the problem is solved. Are they to be incorporated in some manner? Then the choice between full on oppression ('break them') and a political solution has to be made. Both methods have succeeded and failed at different times.

Finally, I don't accept that intelligence work alone broke The IRA.

Rawhead

See there in lies the problem. The people against who the BA where fighting did consider them an invading force. I am not pro IRA or anything like it but I really do resent the attitude held by some that they where a bunch of thick Paddies and that they were defeated easily.
1. They fought one of the worlds most advanced and formidable armies to a standstill for nearly thirty years.
2. They made large area's of the UK no go areas that could only be accessed by air.
3. They carried out some very well planned actions deep behind enemy lines. By these I refer to the mortar attack on 10 Downing St and the Brighton bombing.
4. They bled the UK government white financially.
5. They forced repeated governments to the negotiation table.

They also murdered, maimed and massacred hundreds of men, women and kids, but this revisionist view of the troubles is becoming very one sided. The BA behaved appallingly on a daily basis in the north and during a war both sides do bad things.

whitelines

Rawhead wrote: »

See there in lies the problem. The people against who the BA where fighting did consider them an invading force. I am not pro IRA or anything like it but I really do resent the attitude held by some that they where a bunch of thick Paddies and that they were defeated easily.
1. They fought one of the worlds most advanced and formidable armies to a standstill for nearly thirty years.
2. They made large area's of the UK no go areas that could only be accessed by air.
3. They carried out some very well planned actions deep behind enemy lines. By these I refer to the mortar attack on 10 Downing St and the Brighton bombing.
4. They bled the UK government white financially.
5. They forced repeated governments to the negotiation table.

They also murdered, maimed and massacred hundreds of men, women and kids, but this revisionist view of the troubles is becoming very one sided. The BA behaved appallingly on a daily basis in the north and during a war both sides do bad things.

It's irrelevant whether or not PIRA regarded The UK State Forces as an invading force for two reasons: firstly, The UK State existed and it's borders were accepted by all advanced democratic nations. Secondly, (and perhaps more importantly) the majority of those living in the theatre of conflict did not regard Crown forces as foreign invaders. Obviously, in the case of Germany invading Russia, this wasn't the case. It would have been the case if the majority of those living in Russia had been ethnic Germans and only a minority supported Russian independence from Germany. This is not just a moral point, but a practical one.

Responding to point 1, 'They fought one of the worlds most advanced and formidable armies to a standstill for nearly thirty years' is hyperbole of the worst sort. UK State forces acted as police support during 'the troubles', operating under civil law, they couldn't even discharge their weapons unless lives were threatened. If they were one of the world's 'most advanced and formidable armies', they certainly didn't act that way in NI.

Responding to point 2, 'They made large area's of the UK no go areas that could only be accessed by air'. Well, of course they did. What would you have had The UK Army do? Impose a scorched earth policy in South Armagh? Again, they were acting as an auxiliary police force, not a fighting army.

Responding to point 3, 'They carried out some very well planned actions deep behind enemy lines. By these I refer to the mortar attack on 10 Downing St and the Brighton bombing'. These attacks were made possible because The UK State allowed PIRA to operate effectively at will, deploying The UK Army under the rule of law - civil law. In such circumstances it was inevitable that PIRA would achieve some results.

Responding to point 4, 'They bled the UK government white financially'. They did indeed. In fact, you could say that instead of bullets, The Nationalist community in NI was given silver.

Responding to point 5, 'They forced repeated governments to the negotiation table'. They certainly created an environment in which The UK State abandoned democratic norms in NI.

The reality is that PIRA were a committed and determined terrorist organisation, with commendable staying power, but one which operated within the most benign environments imaginable. Their leaders were free to stroll around NI preaching subversion in public. It's hard to see this being applicable anywhere outside a handful of western nations. Certainly not in The US. Still, you fight what's put in front of you.

Responding to your final point - some do more bad things than others.

Rawhead

I have stated from the start and I'll say it again, you will not and cannot defeat a force that has the support of a large part of the population by military means alone.
The original point about the para's in NI was that they were completely the wrong sort of unit for a policing action. The qualities that make them great soldiers make them ****e policemen. Condoleezza Rice said you don't send the 82nd Airborne as crossing guards.
Germany was welcomed in Georgia and the Ukraine because Stalin and Beria where such tyrants, if the Germans hadn't treated them as unter humans they would readily have fought against Russia.

When you beat up a father in front of his son, go down the street roughing up people and searching them, snatching people out of their beds in the middle of the night, locking them up without trial it doesn't matter if it's Belfast, Kabul, the Mekong or anywhere else, you will turn the population against you irrevocably.

Assad in Syria is applying your tactics and it's not working there either. The Romans learned that to keep a people pacified you have to buy them, NATO is buying peace in Afghanistan, just the same way the UK bought peace in NI.

whitelines

Rawhead wrote: »

I have stated from the start and I'll say it again, you will not and cannot defeat a force that has the support of a large part of the population by military means alone.
The original point about the para's in NI was that they were completely the wrong sort of unit for a policing action. The qualities that make them great soldiers make them ****e policemen. Condoleezza Rice said you don't send the 82nd Airborne as crossing guards.
Germany was welcomed in Georgia and the Ukraine because Stalin and Beria where such tyrants, if the Germans hadn't treated them as unter humans they would readily have fought against Russia.

When you beat up a father in front of his son, go down the street roughing up people and searching them, snatching people out of their beds in the middle of the night, locking them up without trial it doesn't matter if it's Belfast, Kabul, the Mekong or anywhere else, you will turn the population against you irrevocably.

Assad in Syria is applying your tactics and it's not working there either. The Romans learned that to keep a people pacified you have to buy them, NATO is buying peace in Afghanistan, just the same way the UK bought peace in NI.

Regarding the high lighted section - it's actually completely wrong. A large state can simply ethnically cleanse a small minority should it decide. The UK would have had very few problems doing this with Northern Ireland's RC population, had it so wished. In fact, provisional plans were discussed at cabinet level. The good news for Northern Ireland's Nationalist population is that this wasn't the solution implemented, for whatever reason.