It's a wonder why more people don't stick around here?

1ZRed

It seems like a nice chunk of people come around here and ask their questions or seek advice and then just leave again.
I was close to being one of them but I decided to stick around. Why not? I like boards and there's good knowledgable people here that have given me good advice so it's nice to hang around.

Granted I don't really contribute much (in ways of being helpful) but I'd like it if some posters would stick around and make this section more lively and diverse. Shame because if anything, I've noticed it's gotten a bit more quiet here compared to when I first started posting.

Ah I'm just wanting what I can't have I suppose:)

Conor30

I've wondered that myself. Maybe because a minority love to argue over nothing and pick fights. Life is hard enough as it is, and even more so for LGBT people. I agree that most of the people are sound and give valuable advice.

Karty55

I would post more if i felt I had something worthwhile to say or contribute but I usually don't so I don't.

toexpress

I think this section of boards.ie is not busy enough to hold the interest of people basically as a meeting point it might not have that much in terms of results

Annasopra

toexpress wrote: »

I think this section of boards.ie is not busy enough to hold the interest of people basically as a meeting point it might not have that much in terms of results

Not quite true. It goes through phases of having a group of people mixing well and getting on together and then of just being a bit quiet and people looking for information and advice.

toexpress

mango salsa wrote: »

Not quite true. It goes through phases of having a group of people mixing well and getting on together and then of just being a bit quiet and people looking for information and advice.

Ah right I stand corrected haven't seen that yet but I remain hopeful

One more bad date and I am going to change sides

1ZRed

Karty55 wrote: »

I would post more if i felt I had something worthwhile to say or contribute but I usually don't so I don't.

That's exactly why I don't post more often too. I try to more now, but it's pointless to post for the sake of posting. 
Take a look at after hours. Because its always flooded with people, random and just fun topics arise out of it so it's easy to throw a comment on whatever.
Maybe the LGBT section's biggest down fall is the fact that anything non LGBT (that's not in off topic) is more or less disregarded so it's less enticing for people to stay because, well,  it can get boring and heavy around here! Generally, gay/bi problems can be a big come down to begin with so it's at a disadvantage straight away.
I know a lot of the members are the total opposite of what I said above (don't want to offend anyone btw) so it surprises me that there isn't more easy going and fun threads being posted? 
I admit I don't help the tone of the place with my threads either! so I'll try my best to actually contribute positively:)


On a side note, I bet the mods are happy they can take it handy while the place quiets down:p

Captain Graphite

If the place had more meetups it'd probably be more popular and get a little more traffic. Problem is meetups can only really cater to those living in and around Dublin (the problem of having a quarter of the country's population stuck in one corner!) and even then a lot of potential attendees either won't be able to come or may get too shy and back out at the last minute.

Also the fact that boards is so big, with so many different forums, means that there's quite limited scope as to what can actually be discussed here. Sites like QueerID or Gaycork.com are general discussion boards where people can talk about whatever they like. Boards, on the other hand, has separate forums for pretty much everything so if you wanna talk about music you go to the Music forum, if you wanna talk about TV you go to the TV forum etc. This leaves the LGBT forum here with pretty much nothing else to discuss other than the serious issues like coming out, questioning, homophobia, transphobia etc. And those aren't exactly topics you use to socialise and arrange a big pissup over! It's not the posters' fault or the mods' fault, just a consequence of having a site as vast as boards where different topics go into different places.

Aurongroove

More of the character types you'd associate with heavier forum use are either those who like to talk obsessively about a hobby or people who like to argue and troll.

On the first matter, one dosn't really have an "interest" in LBGT, one is either LGBTQetc or not, (it's not a hobby you get in and out of as such) so most of the topic will be real life questions looking for answers or help etc. So expecting this forum to be as busy as a forums with similar numbers but on the topic of say alternative music or computer technology etc would be a mistake.

Secondly this forum is 'quite touchy' on the Beaufort scale of politeness/brashness of the internet world. I'd say it's is a little closer to 'real life' levels i.e., how polite you'd be to a person in real life.
Heavy internet users and trolls would tend to steer away from places where they can't be.., well, basically as rude/tasteless/insulting as they like. But if anything, I think the place is better for it, busy forums often wind up looking like those horrendous comments lists boxes beneath videos posted on youtube.

Annasopra

Aurongroove wrote: »

Secondly this forum is 'quite touchy' on the Beaufort scale of politeness/brashness of the internet world. I'd say it's is a little closer to 'real life' levels i.e., how polite you'd be to a person in real life.
Heavy internet users and trolls would tend to steer away from places where they can't be.., well, basically as rude/tasteless/insulting as they like. But if anything, I think the place is better for it, busy forums often wind up looking like those horrendous comments lists boxes beneath videos posted on youtube.

I think this is a good thing - for me this it's about an atmosphere of a safe space where we can discuss lgbt issues without having to justify ourselves or answer people obsessed with anal sex and the unnaturalness of it. See the AH discussion on Poland etc.

If the LGBT forum didn't exist on boards.ie I think I would scared off by After Hours long ago

1ZRed

mango salsa wrote: »

I think this is a good thing - for me this it's about an atmosphere of a safe space where we can discuss lgbt issues without having to justify ourselves or answer people obsessed with anal sex and the unnaturalness of it. See the AH discussion on Poland etc.

If the LGBT forum didn't exist on boards.ie I think I would scared off by After Hours long ago

Yeah but has it become too safe here? I feel that I'm on my best behaviour (well, as good as I can bare) but I'm a messer and I blatantly talk sh1t and just want to have a laugh. I get that this place needs to be serious when tackling some issues but I want a bit of energy too!:D

Now I'm not throwing down on anyone here, maybe it's just the low numbers and segregation that's preventing this? I'm not sure.

Pedant

1ZRed wrote: »

Yeah but has it become too safe here? I feel that I'm on my best behaviour (well, as good as I can bare) but I'm a messer and I blatantly talk sh1t and just want to have a laugh. I get that this place needs to be serious when tackling some issues but I want a bit of energy too!:D

Now I'm not throwing down on anyone here, maybe it's just the low numbers and segregation that's preventing this? I'm not sure.

There are A LOT of overly sensitive people on this forum. I wouldn't say the mods are but whenever there's an argument between the touchy ones and others, the mods intervene on the side of the offended party, which is understandable really; there's nothing much else they can do. My point is though, I think that one thing that puts people off this particular forum is that it can be a bit bitchy at times. Sometimes it's just unnecessary bitchiness as well, people need to chlax and stop taking life so seriously.

Goodshape

Seems like a bit of a common theme in this forum, though: what does it mean to be LGBT anyway? What should we talk about here that can't be better discussed elsewhere on Boards.ie, with the wider community?

This forum discusses the issues surrounding LGBT, but it's not really a catch-all for a wide range of topics that a dedicated LGBT forum-site might be.

I think that's alright for the most part. It's busier sometimes, less so other times - and at the moment, I guess. I always read it anyway, and try to contribute where I feel I can add something.

Annasopra

Pedant wrote: »

There are A LOT of overly sensitive people on this forum. I wouldn't say the mods are but whenever there's an argument between the touchy ones and others, the mods intervene on the side of the offended party, which is understandable really; there's nothing much else they can do. My point is though, I think that one thing that puts people off this particular forum is that it can be a bit bitchy at times. Sometimes it's just unnecessary bitchiness as well, people need to chlax and stop taking life so seriously.

LGBT issues can by their very nature be very serious and very personal. I think you are exaggerating sensitivities and bitchiness. I don't see much bitchiness at all here recently. Yes there are sensitive people. This is completely understandable given the difficulties people may have had or perhaps some of it is internalised homophobia/transphobia. There can also be a lot of insensitive people around here.

Irish Aris

Well, I for one don't contribute much which, to a certain extend, makes sense as I haven't been to Ireland long enough to have opinion on all topics.

But I do read regularly, almost on every day basis.
I actually like the fact that things don't get bitchy in here. People could easily be scared off if things got ugly. The way things generally are in the forum, it is likely that someone might join and stick around.

fizzyorange

I like to lurk around here a bit, but truth is I rarely have opinions on any LGBT related topics so I don't usually comment. :pac: Don't go to gay meet up groups (would like to but am yet to find one that suits), don't go to any gay bars, am not a member of any gay sports/hobbies/teams, etc. I'd comment more if I actually knew anything about what's happening in the gay world/gay scene, but I haven't a breeze.

baby and crumble

As I see it, the point of this forum is to be a safe space for people who are LGBT to speak about the issues that relate to that part of their lives. It was never envisaged as a chat forum really. Like someone said previously, Boards.ie is highly categorised, which means in general, topics anywhere on the site that aren't relevant to the forum they are posted in, they are moved- the exception is the "off-topic" thread in most forums. The only forums that is a catch-all forum is AH.

I have my own personal opinions regarding the whole "over sensitive" issue, which I try not to cloud my judgement as a mod.

allydylan

I tend to go through phasing of using this forum. I'd use it all the time for a week or so, then forget about it, then come back to it again.

I don't know why I do this

coolperson05

I think it's just not as busy because alot of people are watching and lurking but not commenting. Perhaps due to insecurities they have, or they're afraid to offend other people's opinions...I don't know. Also it's not for chat as such ( we have PMs for that! :P) Its for a more considered, almost formal, form of conversation....I think!

ongarboy

baby and crumble wrote: »

As I see it, the point of this forum is to be a safe space for people who are LGBT to speak about the issues that relate to that part of their lives. It was never envisaged as a chat forum really. Like someone said previously, Boards.ie is highly categorised, which means in general, topics anywhere on the site that aren't relevant to the forum they are posted in, they are moved- the exception is the "off-topic" thread in most forums. The only forums that is a catch-all forum is AH.

I agree. I also think as someone else alluded to after this post that the forum is just as important to those that lurk or view the threads/comments but who don't or wish not to post themselves. I know I've gained some interesting and even valuable insight on threads here that I didn't actively contribute to. Of course, a forum is only as good as the activity that is posted on it so hopefully those who don't post but would like to would not feel any obstacles in doing so.

Aard

I'm subscribed, and used to contribute regularly. You're right to an extent OP - in the past few years the forum has become a lot stricter. Since the watershed of the whole forum renaming, things have been decidedly less fun. I still read most topics here, but rarely respond.

Looking back, I miss Jakkass and Iwasfrozen.

1ZRed

Aard wrote: »

I'm subscribed, and used to contribute regularly. You're right to an extent OP - in the past few years the forum has become a lot stricter. Since the watershed of the whole forum renaming, things have been decidedly less fun. I still read most topics here, but rarely respond.

Looking back, I miss Jakkass and Iwasfrozen.

I agree with you. I haven't been around long enough to know any better but I never understood why it needed to be as strict as it is. You can give advice, be nice and helpful but also have a bit of fun, just fuck around and have a laugh. Ffs, you can't even try to look for friends here!:rolleyes:

It's honestly quite boring and I think that's the main reason why nobody sticks around. I've never found my sexuality easy but I was never so emotionally sensitive that I would be but off by a bit of humour!

For this place to liven up it's going to need way more members to grow and attract more but I doubt that's ever going to happen.

Unless everyone eases up on the sensitivity a bit that is;)

wonderfulname

It's really not that strict here, I've never managed to be reprimanded and I don't recall ever being precious with anyone, if you feel you're not allowed say what you want maybe you should have a good look at what exactly that is, because all that isn't tolerated is in essence being derogatory towards a persons identity. Given the nature of the forum it makes sense surely?

I've been quiet of late because there's nothing much of interest to me here lately, that and my laptop is fried. Conversation blossoms here when there's something to converse, or more accurately, give out about, maybe it's a positive thing the place is so quiet...

FairytaleGirl

I think us LGBTrs fall into a trap of making our sexuality a huge part of our identity, more so than our straight friends.

This forum is quiet because it only discusses LGBT issues strictly. (coming out/how to meet other gay people etc) I post much more on Music/Edu/After hours because its more relevant to me in terms of content.

Im a 24yr old out Lesbian in a long term relationship. I dont have any LGBT 'issues', i only come on here to give others advice.

lottpaul

coolperson05 wrote: »

I think it's just not as busy because alot of people are watching and lurking but not commenting. Perhaps due to insecurities they have, or they're afraid to offend other people's opinions...I don't know. Also it's not for chat as such ( we have PMs for that! :P) Its for a more considered, almost formal, form of conversation....I think!

I agree.

Like many others I don't post very often but I do enjoy reading what others have to say and responding whenever I can. I suspect that this is one forum where the "readership" far far exceeds the contributions and it is a very valuable link for a lot of people, even if simply in terms of connecting with other LGBT people.

A lot of us take for granted the freedom to be and say what and who we are but for many that's just a dream. This forum - and others like it - does make a difference to them.

And there are still loads of issues and battles to be fought and won - starting perhaps with full marriage rights for same sex couples, so it could get a lot livelier around here

Annasopra

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

This forum is quiet because it only discusses LGBT issues strictly. (coming out/how to meet other gay people etc) I post much more on Music/Edu/After hours because its more relevant to me in terms of content.

We do have discussion from time to time on politics/religion - the off topic thread discusses everything

Annasopra

Aard wrote: »

I'm subscribed, and used to contribute regularly. You're right to an extent OP - in the past few years the forum has become a lot stricter. Since the watershed of the whole forum renaming, things have been decidedly less fun. I still read most topics here, but rarely respond.

Looking back, I miss Jakkass and Iwasfrozen.

Kind of see where you are coming from but I think things are less heated at the moment.

apache

I don't post here anymore. I only recently started posting on boards because of a subject i was interested in.
This forum is a bit too serious and wishy washy and sometimes people just want a giggle yanno.
I find people here get way too easily offended and forget that just because you are gay dosen't mean that we all have to think the same.
The only threads on here are advice ones and hello ones - not too interested in them.
Oh and also i got a pain in my gee of getting warnings ha!

baby and crumble

apache wrote: »

I don't post here anymore. I only recently started posting on boards because of a subject i was interested in.
This forum is a bit too serious and wishy washy and sometimes people just want a giggle yanno.
I find people here get way too easily offended and forget that just because you are gay dosen't mean that we all have to think the same.
The only threads on here are advice ones and hello ones - not too interested in them.
Oh and also i got a pain in my gee of getting warnings ha!

That's it! WARNING!!!

The forum abides by the charter, which has always been drawn up with the consultation of the people who post- when it gets reviewed, any and everybody can come along, put their spake in, and debate it.

It's not that you're not allowed look for friends, we simply get an awful lot of people here looking for ONS and casual hookups, so as a forum it was decided to not allow direct personal ads- you are more than welcome to post about groups, suggestion of meetings etc., and of course to use the PM function.

Captain Graphite

apache wrote: »

I find people here get way too easily offended and forget that just because you are gay dosen't mean that we all have to think the same.

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

I think us LGBTrs fall into a trap of making our sexuality a huge part of our identity, more so than our straight friends.

1ZRed wrote: »

I've never found my sexuality easy but I was never so emotionally sensitive that I would be but off by a bit of humour!

With the risk of opening a can of worms here, it wasn't so much sexuality issues that caused issues here before, moreso gender issues and trans related discussion. And I think there was fault on both sides; some people were downright insensitive towards trans posters (including the occasional "trans women are just men in drag" type trolls that occasionally wander in here). And on the other hand I do think a minority of trans posters were a little quick to take offence sometimes and play the "transphobia" card in situations where the OP was not at all being transphobic, though given the aforementioned trolls they have to deal with at times I guess this is understandable.

Aard mentioned the "watershed moment" of the forum name change and it seems that in the past few weeks a lot of trans posters have stopped posting here. It's a little sad that an "us against them" attitude seems to have developed on both sides (again, only a minority of posters being responsible for this) but I guess there's not much else that can be done other than hope relations improve again in the future.

As for the mods (this is turning into a pure feedback thread now! :pac:) I think overall they do a great job in what can be a sometimes hostile environment to moderate in. I don't agree with everything they say but ultimately it's better to have an forum that's a little strict than a chaotic one where no-one feels comfortable posting for the fear of a homophobic/transphobic backlash.

.....I suspect the above may have all been waffle of the highest degree but hopefully there was something vaguely relevant in there to mull over! :P

FairytaleGirl

I am a Lesbian.

Thus I identify as other than heterosexual.

Trans is more of an identity/gender thing as opposed to sexuality - I have nothing against people who identify as Trans but nothing in common either. I sometimes feel they shouldnt be under the LGB umbrella, as it were, unless they have a sexual identity thing aswell - I mean a male living as female - who is attracted to guys isnt gay but a straight (Trans) female.

Similarly - a cross dressing guy - who dresses up at weekends/in spare time is NOT a Transexual but a Tranvestite. NOT THE SAME. I think this confusion/mix up leads to the whole 'Trans are just men in drag' insult.


Anyway I digress - Im going to post a new thread everyone may be interested in - not 'hook ups' or 'how to come out' but PRIDE

Annasopra

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

I am a Lesbian.

Thus I identify as other than heterosexual.

Trans is more of an identity/gender thing as opposed to sexuality - I have nothing against people who identify as Trans but nothing in common either. I sometimes feel they shouldnt be under the LGB umbrella, as it were, unless they have a sexual identity thing aswell - I mean a male living as female - who is attracted to guys isnt gay but a straight (Trans) female.

Similarly - a cross dressing guy - who dresses up at weekends/in spare time is NOT a Transexual but a Tranvestite. NOT THE SAME. I think this confusion/mix up leads to the whole 'Trans are just men in drag' insult.


Anyway I digress - Im going to post a new thread everyone may be interested in - not 'hook ups' or 'how to come out' but PRIDE

Mod comment
We've had this discussion many many times already. Transgender is in the title. It's not a good idea at all to reopen that particular discussion as it makes transgender members feel unwelcome on the forum. If you have any problems with this PM me

Aard

Incidentally, is there now a Transgender forum or what? I've seen a link in one of the mod categories...

deirdre_dub

I'm one of the aforementioned transgender people who has pretty much stopped posting here.

I still lurk - looking out for transgender issues and commenting / helping if I see an opportunity. I steer clear of most LGB issues - whereas I'm bisexual, my sexuality isn't a big part of my life, so I don't feel that LGB issues are (usually) "my" issues, and so I don't usually post.

I wish that many LGB people would take the same kind of attitude towards trans issues. Yes everyone has an opinion on trans, but this space cannot work for trans people unless and until it is much more about lived experience than it is about opinions, especially since the latter are usually in direct opposition to the former.

I think many trans people have become sick and tired of some LGB people, and some trolls, coming on here and telling us what our lives are about. No-one gets to tell me who and what I am - I get to tell you who and what I am, and you either accept me or you reject me. Unfortunately, the latter has been the choice of too many.

So there we have it. I'm a transgender person coming on this thread to stand up for transgender people. I confidently predict that I'll be shot down for doing so, that I won't get sufficient support in dealing with being shot down, and that this thread will therefore be locked within a week. And that isn't me belly-aching - that is the way that this forum has dealt with trans issues and people for quite a while now.

The good news for trans people is that there is now a trans-run forum at www.transgender.ie. So the wish of some to get rid of trans people - of cleaning us out and making this forum pure again - is coming true.

1ZRed

deirdre_dub wrote: »

I'm one of the aforementioned transgender people who has pretty much stopped posting here.

I still lurk - looking out for transgender issues and commenting / helping if I see an opportunity. I steer clear of most LGB issues - whereas I'm bisexual, my sexuality isn't a big part of my life, so I don't feel that LGB issues are (usually) "my" issues, and so I don't usually post.

I wish that many LGB people would take the same kind of attitude towards trans issues. Yes everyone has an opinion on trans, but this space cannot work for trans people unless and until it is much more about lived experience than it is about opinions, especially since the latter are usually in direct opposition to the former.

I think many trans people have become sick and tired of some LGB people, and some trolls, coming on here and telling us what our lives are about. No-one gets to tell me who and what I am - I get to tell you who and what I am, and you either accept me or you reject me. Unfortunately, the latter has been the choice of too many.

So there we have it. I'm a transgender person coming on this thread to stand up for transgender people. I confidently predict that I'll be shot down for doing so, that I won't get sufficient support in dealing with being shot down, and that this thread will therefore be locked within a week. And that isn't me belly-aching - that is the way that this forum has dealt with trans issues and people for quite a while now.

The good news for trans people is that there is now a trans-run forum at www.transgender.ie. So the wish of some to get rid of trans people - of cleaning us out and making this forum pure again - is coming true.

I've been around here for a few months and in that time I have NEVER heard a bad word being said about trans people in this forum. Whatever issues you have with lgb people are your own and if you feel we get you down so much why not just stick to that website?
I have zero issues with trans people but I just hate it when someone comes on here and takes out their frustrations on people who haven't done anything wrong to upset them.
And why would you be shot down by us? This is a lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender forum not the Christianity section. I think we're a bit more understanding than you think.


It's funny because the issue of over sensitivity came up here and I think this is an example that. I don't understand the unwarranted hostility you have towards people in this section but if you feel that way, why not just stay on that website.

Annasopra

1ZRed wrote: »

I've been around here for a few months and in that time I have NEVER heard a bad word being said about trans people in this forum. Whatever issues you have with lgb people are your own and if you feel we get you down so much why not just stick to that website?
I have zero issues with trans people but I just hate it when someone comes on here and takes out their frustrations on people who haven't done anything wrong to upset them.
And why would you be shot down by us? This is a lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender forum not the Christianity section. I think we're a bit more understanding than you think.


It's funny because the issue of over sensitivity came up here and I think this is an example that. I don't understand the unwarranted hostility you have towards people in this section but if you feel that way, why not just stay on that website.

In fairness there has been outright hostility to trans issues and members in this forum. That has changed somewhat in recent months but part of that is because a lot of trans members left. I think that as you've only been here a few months you won't have experienced some of the hostility. You obviously won't understand some of the history or context of what's being discussed either so it is probably better if you don't insinuate that people are unwelcome here and leave that to the mods.

1ZRed

mango salsa wrote: »

In fairness there has been outright hostility to trans issues and members in this forum. That has changed somewhat in recent months but part of that is because a lot of trans members left. I think that as you've only been here a few months you won't have experienced some of the hostility. You obviously won't understand some of the history or context of what's being discussed either so it is probably better if you don't insinuate that people are unwelcome here and leave that to the mods.

Ok I stand corrected on that considering I've only been here a while and I don't know what went down in the past. I would consider it a safe place now though because I havent seen any hostility from anyone towards this issue.


And I not insinuate that she was unwelcome here! I merely suggested that if she felt as strongly as she did, then maybe it would be just easier to stay in a dedicated transgender forum. If I caused offence or came across as a bit harsh I apologise for it.

deirdre_dub

1ZRed wrote: »

And why would you be shot down by us? This is a lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender forum not the Christianity section. I think we're a bit more understanding than you think.

Please note my liberal use of the word "some" when I was talking about the people who have caused problems, as in some LGB people. Unfortunately, the number of LGB people who have caused problems has been too high, and the number of LGB people who have stood up to them has been too low.

It's funny because the issue of over sensitivity

:rolleyes:

I don't think the problem is over-sensitivity on the part of trans people - I think the problem is under-sensitivity on the part of some LGB people.

I don't understand the unwarranted hostility you have towards people in this section but if you feel that way, why not just stay on that website.

Well, as Mango Salsa pointed out, there has been far far more unwarranted hostility towards trans people from LGB people than in the other direction, which is a large part of the reason why this forum is now becoming just an LGB forum. So the good news from your point of view is that this forum is being cleaned out of what you see as the "over-sensitive" trans people - there are now pretty much no trans people left.

I'm sure I speak for many when I say that Links' contribution is missed. Links was one of the first trans people to leave this forum. And if there was ever a human being for whom the label "over-sensitive" is unwarranted, it's Links!!!

deirdre_dub

1ZRed wrote: »

And I not insinuate that she was unwelcome here! I merely suggested that if she felt as strongly as she did, then maybe it would be just easier to stay in a dedicated transgender forum. If I caused offence or came across as a bit harsh I apologise for it.

Sorry - I wrote my post before I saw this.

Let's be clear about something. The problem is some LGB people. Unfortunately, in this case, some equals more than enough. And, for what it's worth, I don't think you are in the some category.

Yes there has been pretty much no hostility towards trans people in recent months. That is probably because most of the trans people have left, and so the amount of trans issues and threads has plummeted.

Goodshape

deirdre_dub wrote: »

I steer clear of most LGB issues - whereas I'm bisexual, my sexuality isn't a big part of my life, so I don't feel that LGB issues are (usually) "my" issues, and so I don't usually post.

Isn't that the crux of the "problem", though? That LGB issues are not, generally speaking, your issues... and that T issues are not, generally speaking, LGB issues?

At the same time I think there's room for plenty of cross-over, and I for one hate to exclude anyone, but... ehm, maybe a sub-forum would have been a better choice?

On the one hand I've seriously enjoyed learning more about T issues since that letter was added to the forum title. On the other hand, I'd have to admit that most definitely I've opened a few potentially interesting threads in that time, read a few posts and just thought "oh, the threads gone into trans issues now... not really anything to do with me" -- and that's it really. I wouldn't know how to contribute meaningfully when that happens. I have no idea what it's like to be uncomfortable with your gender, or any of the issues around that.

1ZRed

Goodshape wrote: »

Isn't that the crux of the "problem", though? That LGB issues are not, generally speaking, your issues... and that T issues are not, generally speaking, LGB issues?

At the same time I think there's room for plenty of cross-over, and I for one hate to exclude anyone, but... ehm, maybe a sub-forum would have been a better choice?

On the one hand I've seriously enjoyed learning more about T issues since that letter was added to the forum title. On the other hand, I'd have to admit that most definitely I've opened a few potentially interesting threads in that time, read a few posts and just thought "oh, the threads gone into trans issues now... not really anything to do with me" -- and that's it really. I wouldn't know how to contribute meaningfully when that happens. I have no idea what it's like to be uncomfortable with your gender, or any of the issues around that.

Exactly. I'm the same and I try to understand but the fact of the matter is, I just don't and I probably never will. That doesn't mean I'm going to see trans people in a negative light or I'm not going to bother with them. I will try to be supportive and understanding but when it comes to a lot of trans issues, I just don't know what to say so I don't comment on the posts. I think it would be ignorant of me to offer advice on something I don't understand. But if support is needed I won't shy away from reassuring them.

I think a sub forum that is opened by request would be a good idea for a safe transgender forum. This place will be open to you as well but you'll have a private forum to discuss problems, issues or whatever else without trolls or discrimination from any other people. I was thinking it would be like the soccer private forum where you have to be granted access in order to be allowed in.
Would any transgender person be interested in that idea?

deirdre_dub

Goodshape wrote: »

Isn't that the crux of the "problem", though? That LGB issues are not, generally speaking, your issues... and that T issues are not, generally speaking, LGB issues?

And there are many G issues that aren't L issues and B issues that aren't G issues etc etc etc.

Yes trans is gender identity and LGB is sexuality - but being trans has a huge impact on your sexuality. For one thing - is a relationship between a man and a non-op trans woman a straight relationship or a gay relationship? Different people will have different answers to that question. Whereas the majority of trans people would see it as a straight relationship, there are some trans identities in which it would be a gay relationship.

And the social issues we face are the same. Many homosexuals experience transphobia, and many trans people experience homophobia. I was recently called a "fagg*t" while in a shop in Dublin, and many gay people are asked about their cross-dressing behaviours.

At the same time I think there's room for plenty of cross-over

And that is why LGBTQ belongs together - the cross-over is much greater than the difference.

I wouldn't know how to contribute meaningfully when that happens. I have no idea what it's like to be uncomfortable with your gender, or any of the issues around that.

And I think that is a good approach. Yes ask respectful questions, but no-one should assume they know anything about what the experience is like.

baby and crumble

Ok, can I just step in here with my mod hat on and ask people to stop discussing the merits or not of this forum including trans issues? This topic has been discussed ad nauseum. Fact is, this is an LESBIAN, GAY, BISEXUAL AND TRANDGENDER forum. Therefore, all of the above are welcome.

Hostility will not be welcomed, from either 'side' on this. None of us mods want to get heavy handed here, but aggression, even the passive aggressive kind won't be tolerated. Stick to the topic at hand. Thanks.

Goodshape

Sorry, baby and crumble... I know, I know, it's a damn worn out topic... buuutt.. it is seemingly relevant to "why more people don't stick around here" :-/


Anyway, deirdre_dub, I don't think there's any points in your post there that I'd want to argue with at all. As I said, I enjoyed learning a few new things from the Trans users on the forum. As you said, being respectful is key -- and reading, rather than blurting something out, when don't have something meaningful to contribute is a good way to go.

It probably has resulted in me posting a bit less because there are now more of those instances where I don't feel the topic, or the way a topic has gone, has much to do with me. But I still read and enjoy this forum. It's more unfortunate if perceived (or actual) hostilities have driven anyone away altogether.


Can't we all just get along?

LegacyUser

While I have posted before that I do not know a lot / anything about trans* I still can not believe there is such a discussion on it being LGB and not LGBT.

Sure we do not all have opinions on the "other groups" but it is still an umbrella community and should remain so imo.

If any of the "groups" are sectioned off to a sub forum or another site then the "mystery" and "unknown" factor will remain and if the LGB(T) community does not communicate with the Trans* community then how will the rest of society?

Annasopra

Goodshape wrote: »

Sorry, baby and crumble... I know, I know, it's a damn worn out topic... buuutt.. it is seemingly relevant to "why more people don't stick around here" :-/


Anyway, deirdre_dub, I don't think there's any points in your post there that I'd want to argue with at all. As I said, I enjoyed learning a few new things from the Trans users on the forum. As you said, being respectful is key -- and reading, rather than blurting something out, when don't have something meaningful to contribute is a good way to go.

It probably has resulted in me posting a bit less because there are now more of those instances where I don't feel the topic, or the way a topic has gone, has much to do with me. But I still read and enjoy this forum. It's more unfortunate if perceived (or actual) hostilities have driven anyone away altogether.


Can't we all just get along?

I would kind of agree with this. I don't think this discussion at the moment is broaching dropping the T - I think the discussion at the moment is more about why some trans posters have felt they can't stick around.

I think it's important to have that conversation.

I agree with what you are saying Goodshape - I have learned a huge amount from the trans posters in this forum. I personally would not like to see them leave en masse for good.

Aurongroove

but this space cannot work for trans people unless and until it is much more about lived experience than it is about opinions.

A metaphor:
In any given forum there may be a music section where there are lots of people who have opinions regarding music. I am a specialist in some areas of music, I've been a semi-professional musician all my life and have university qualifications to boot so someone who goes clubbing twice a week every night and "knows a DJ" isn't going to have very adept points to make about harmony, or audio art or pop you might think.

well first things first
What I don't do is declare "this space cannot work for musicians until it is much more about lived in experience then it is about opinions". basically excluding anyone who isn't an active musician, (such as someone who listens to music just but was hoping to learn more about it for the sake of curiosity and understanding).

I don't because that would be cutting off their avenue for exploration of the topic. i.e. they'll never know anything more about the things in which I have first hand life-experience if I lack the self confidence to allow them to be wrong in my presence and correct them or engage with them pro-actively. If I insist that only those with life experience can enter the dialogue then I'm essentially bullying people into shutting up for my benefit of not having to deal with them. where as in fact the forum may be the perfect area for me to exercise my abilities to teach people more about my experiences (no matter how insurmountable the wall of ignorance looks from my end, such experience do I have)


Secondly, you don't need first hand experience to hold the truer point of view. This might seem crazy but it's not; it's correct. Thinking otherwise is a classic logical fallacy that dates back to ancient Greece.

example:
A single mother raising 2 children has a drinking problem and is a chain smoker.
you say "you shouldn't smoke and drink so much, it's bad for your children's well being"
the mother might reply "don't go lecturing me; I smoke in the kitchen with the door closed and the kids are used to me being drunk on the weekends, besides you don't know anything: you're not a single mother"

now while you may not know what it's like to be a single mother, you may rightly so suspect that smoking and drinking to much has negative effects on the psychology and health of children.
The single mother in this case is correct that you're not a single mother but incorrect about it thus making you wrong or her right; in this case you are right and she is not, on an issue of single parenting. The fact that she is a mother and you are not is incidental.

will someone please respond to this if they detected even the slightest trace of aggression in what I posted. This isn't an attack, it's an explanation. the thread is about why more people dont post, a group of TG's who used to post are no longer here and Deirdre_dub has posted on their behalf, this post is on topic it is a reply to deirdre_dub and I'm saying that A: it's not proper to post as you did Deirdre_dub, you came in and posted a closed argument on why no one can ever talk to you about TG issues unless they're themselves TG

and B, this isn't an enlightened stance to take on any matter since it is both emic* and etic* points of view together which lead to full understanding of a particular subject, wither that subject is music, cooking, parenting, being gay, being Irish, being fat or being TG.

you are free to reply or not, and I don't want to give the feeling that I'm hassling you, but I want to say now that if you reply and I detect that reply as being passive aggressive, closed ended, or with emotional appeal in liu of reasoning, or if you've assumed what I wrote was an attack, Then I won't be responding to what you write, and if I don't, then don't take that personally either.

bodice ripper

My opinion is rarely acceptable on this forum, so I don't post much.

Rev Hellfire

Why is the forum quieter, because perhaps unlike other forums boards.ie has a large number of other areas which are better suited to catering to non-lgbt topics.

It's become a one-topic shop and that's never really going to hold a community.

deirdre_dub

Aurongroove wrote: »

A metaphor:
In any given forum there may be a music section where there are lots of people who have opinions regarding music. I am a specialist in some areas of music, I've been a semi-professional musician all my life and have university qualifications to boot so someone who goes clubbing twice a week every night and "knows a DJ" isn't going to have very adept points to make about harmony, or audio art or pop you might think.

well first things first
What I don't do is declare "this space cannot work for musicians until it is much more about lived in experience then it is about opinions". basically excluding anyone who isn't an active musician, (such as someone who listens to music just but was hoping to learn more about it for the sake of curiosity and understanding).

Not a fair metaphor.

First of all, music is an art form with a subjective experience that everyone has access to. Being trans is a medical condition with a set of very real experiences that are common amongst most trans people (gender dysphoria, HRT, surgeries, effects on sexuality etc) that only a very few people have access to.

Also, if the forum is for musicians, then the lived experience of musicians is what the forum should be about. If the forum is for those with university qualifications, then the lived experience of such people is what the forum should be about. If the forum is just about music, then it becomes about a subjective experience that everyone has access to.

I don't because that would be cutting off their avenue for exploration of the topic. i.e. they'll never know anything more about the things in which I have first hand life-experience if I lack the self confidence to allow them to be wrong in my presence and correct them or engage with them pro-actively. If I insist that only those with life experience can enter the dialogue then I'm essentially bullying people into shutting up for my benefit of not having to deal with them. where as in fact the forum may be the perfect area for me to exercise my abilities to teach people more about my experiences (no matter how insurmountable the wall of ignorance looks from my end, such experience do I have)

You cannot teach people who believe that their opinion is just as important as your lived experience.

Secondly, you don't need first hand experience to hold the truer point of view. This might seem crazy but it's not; it's correct. Thinking otherwise is a classic logical fallacy that dates back to ancient Greece.

example:
A single mother raising 2 children has a drinking problem and is a chain smoker.
you say "you shouldn't smoke and drink so much, it's bad for your children's well being"
the mother might reply "don't go lecturing me; I smoke in the kitchen with the door closed and the kids are used to me being drunk on the weekends, besides you don't know anything: you're not a single mother"

now while you may not know what it's like to be a single mother, you may rightly so suspect that smoking and drinking to much has negative effects on the psychology and health of children.
The single mother in this case is correct that you're not a single mother but incorrect about it thus making you wrong or her right; in this case you are right and she is not, on an issue of single parenting. The fact that she is a mother and you are not is incidental.

You are talking about someone who has training in an issue (smoking) that the mother doesn't have. If you come on here as someone with the training of an endocrinologist or a surgeon then I will listen to what you have to say on matters of endocrinology and surgery. But most of the people who have opinions on what it means to be trans have no such training - most of them have probably never even met a trans person.

will someone please respond to this if they detected even the slightest trace of aggression in what I posted.

Your choice of analogies and metaphors is extremely unfair.

This isn't an attack, it's an explanation. the thread is about why more people dont post, a group of TG's who used to post are no longer here and Deirdre_dub has posted on their behalf

Just to correct you - I most certainly didn't post "on their behalf" - my opinions are mine only. I said that I am standing up for trans people, but I am doing so without actually having consulted with any trans person about what I am saying or about how I am standing up for the community.

A: it's not proper to post as you did Deirdre_dub, you came in and posted a closed argument on why no one can ever talk to you about TG issues unless they're themselves TG

First of all, can we leave the personal out of this?!?!???

Second, I didn't say that the only people who can post are those who are themselves TG. Indeed, if you actually read what I wrote, at one stage I actually encouraged people to ask questions. I just placed limits (very very reasonable limits) on what I think people's behaviours should be when asking those questions.

B, this isn't an enlightened stance to take on any matter since it is both emic* and etic* points of view together which lead to full understanding of a particular subject, wither that subject is music, cooking, parenting, being gay, being Irish, being fat or being TG.

The problem is that the etic is in the vast vast vast majority, and hence the emic is often drowned out. The opinion of the etic is far far far too often based on myth and prejudice, and the emic, being in such a minority, needs support in order to counterbalance that.

Also, the emic, by its nature, has access to information that the etic never will have, and hence the etic needs to be mature enough to know when such information is being presented to it. All too often, the etic doesn't do that - the etic holds all information that is being presented to it equally, while in fact some of that information is of higher value and quality than the rest.

An analogy. The opinion you have as a gay person about being gay is of higher quality than the opinion presented in the bible about being gay, and it is wrong to hold both sets of opinions to be equal.

I want to say now that if you reply and I detect that reply as being passive aggressive, closed ended, or with emotional appeal in liu of reasoning, or if you've assumed what I wrote was an attack, Then I won't be responding to what you write, and if I don't, then don't take that personally either.

As I said above, I believe the personal should be left out of this.

Azure_sky

I don't post here because if I spoke my mind I'd receive too many infractions...