Why Does Connor Murray start over Eoin Reddan?

Fishooks12

jm08 wrote: »

Speed up the game against the ABs? This isn't Aironi on a Friday night in the RDS!

Slow ball against the AB's is step one to defeat.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

Speed up the game against the ABs? This isn't Aironi on a Friday night in the RDS!

So you'd prefer to keep the ball in rucks longer so?

Tox56

jm08 wrote: »

Tox56 wrote: »

I just can't understand why Kidney appears to show so little faith in Reddan and a Reddan/Sexton partnership.

He doesnt even appear to subscribe to the idea of launching Reddan off the bench to speed up the game, as his substitution always appears to coincide with ROG moving to 10.

Speed up the game against the ABs? This isn't Aironi on a Friday night in the RDS!

I'm not specifically talking about the All Blacks (though keeping it in the ruck is suicidal) but all the games Murray has started and then ROG comes off the bench

.ak

Murray

jm08 wrote: »

He maybe a better player (usually down to when Leinster are dominating), but if he was that superior a player he would be the clear first choice for leinster (like Sexton always starts the big games). Boss was the starter against Clermont for instance, not Reddan.

Bizarre post.

Reddan and Boss are selected based on what's infront of them. Reddan is the scrumhalf you pick when you want fast, accurate ball from the breakdown. Boss is the one who imposes himself on the pitch and marshals his pack in a tight manner.

Ireland currently play a breakdown game - we dominated the ABs in a game where we were clearly the lesser in every facet of the game. Why would you pick the Boss-esque character there? We fought hard to impose ourselves on the breakdown and then wasted the ball. This is clearly down to the link man - the scrumhalf. Even BOD eluded to the fact we squandered our ball after securing it.

We've got an impressive pack - we should be picking Reddan. At this stage however there is no doubt that Reddan > Murray. So why not just pick Reddan?

sydthebeat

http://www.3news.co.nz/VIDEO-HIGHLIGHTS-All-Blacks-V-Ireland-Test-rugby-2012/tabid/317/articleID/257241/Default.aspx

http://www.rugbyweek.com/video/new-zealand-vs-ireland-first-test-2012-june-tours-rugby-highlights/new-zealand-vs-ireland-first-test-2012-june-tours-rugby-highlights-video_28b360217.html

having a look at the highlights of the tries above, i think murrays defensive choices are questionable. His 'slow drift' and 'second full back' positional choices were also picked up by neil francis in his commentary in todays Indo.

saveas first try comes from a poor box kick... nearly 30 meters too long. then he attempts to double up on SBW while BOD is tackling him.. thus negating his presence. A bit harsh maybe, but realistic.

For saveas second try, at 37:07 you can see he chooses a position between out defensive line and kearney, who is positioned on our try line. The ab's are playing off their ruck and are 10 meters out. This is a completely structured pice of play and we should have been set up properly. In my opinion this is a completely wrong positional choice by murray, as he has to up in the line.. holding it at 37:07 you can see that the ABs have a 3 on 2 already as our drifting line isnt quick enough.... murray and kearney make the tackle on the line but at that stage its too late... you cannot give this team that opportunity.

saveas third try is even more of an example of both... very slow drift across, no urgency... and poor positional sense. First he takes up a position to cover the short 'hooker break' line out, nothing worng there... but from the point at which the ball is caught in the line out (43:24) all he has to do is drift across. By the time dagg passes to savea at 43:40 savea can cut inside and murray still hasnt gotten across :(..... I know there are other players poor also and its a team effort to defend... but lets not feed the myth that murray is somehow a better defender than Reddan.

The reason he makes tackle on the try line, there were probably 4 examples of this in the game, is because he is not proactive enough to see the danger before hand. And for anyone thing he saved 'certain tries' the Read effort is earls tackle and BODs save...

I still think murray is the future long term SH for ireland, because he has shown previously what he can bring to teh gae... but right now, at this moment in time, Reddan is the clear better SH... especially in this leinster dominated back line.

Higher

Murray

sydthebeat wrote: »

http://www.3news.co.nz/VIDEO-HIGHLIGHTS-All-Blacks-V-Ireland-Test-rugby-2012/tabid/317/articleID/257241/Default.aspx

http://www.rugbyweek.com/video/new-zealand-vs-ireland-first-test-2012-june-tours-rugby-highlights/new-zealand-vs-ireland-first-test-2012-june-tours-rugby-highlights-video_28b360217.html

having a look at the highlights of the tries above, i think murrays defensive choices are questionable. His 'slow drift' and 'second full back' positional choices were also picked up by neil francis in his commentary in todays Indo.

saveas first try comes from a poor box kick... nearly 30 meters too long. then he attempts to double up on SBW while BOD is tackling him.. thus negating his presence. A bit harsh maybe, but realistic.

For saveas second try, at 37:07 you can see he chooses a position between out defensive line and kearney, who is positioned on our try line. The ab's are playing off their ruck and are 10 meters out. This is a completely structured pice of play and we should have been set up properly. In my opinion this is a completely wrong positional choice by murray, as he has to up in the line.. holding it at 37:07 you can see that the ABs have a 3 on 2 already as our drifting line isnt quick enough.... murray and kearney make the tackle on the line but at that stage its too late... you cannot give this team that opportunity.

saveas third try is even more of an example of both... very slow drift across, no urgency... and poor positional sense. First he takes up a position to cover the short 'hooker break' line out, nothing worng there... but from the point at which the ball is caught in the line out (43:24) all he has to do is drift across. By the time dagg passes to savea at 43:40 savea can cut inside and murray still hasnt gotten across :(..... I know there are other players poor also and its a team effort to defend... but lets not feed the myth that murray is somehow a better defender than Reddan.

The reason he makes tackle on the try line, there were probably 4 examples of this in the game, is because he is not proactive enough to see the danger before hand. And for anyone thing he saved 'certain tries' the Read effort is earls tackle and BODs save...

I still think murray is the future long term SH for ireland, because he has shown previously what he can bring to teh gae... but right now, at this moment in time, Reddan is the clear better SH... especially in this leinster dominated back line.

You're actually spot on looking at it there

irishbucsfan

Reddan takes up the exact same position in defense for Leinster.

In fact there are tons of scrum halfs who pay sweeper all over the world.

sydthebeat

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Reddan takes up the exact same position in defense for Leinster.

In fact there are tons of scrum halfs who pay sweeper all over the world.

theres a huge difference between leinster blitz defense and irelands drift...

Fishooks12

sydthebeat wrote: »

theres a huge difference between leinster blitz defense and irelands drift...

Leinster employ a drift too

jm08

.ak wrote: »

Bizarre post.

Reddan and Boss are selected based on what's infront of them. Reddan is the scrumhalf you pick when you want fast, accurate ball from the breakdown. Boss is the one who imposes himself on the pitch and marshals his pack in a tight manner.

And there is a pattern in how they are selected. Away in France, its Boss. In front of the home crowd or a Magners team its Reddan to produce the leinstertainment.

Ireland currently play a breakdown game - we dominated the ABs in a game where we were clearly the lesser in every facet of the game. Why would you pick the Boss-esque character there? We fought hard to impose ourselves on the breakdown and then wasted the ball. This is clearly down to the link man - the scrumhalf. Even BOD eluded to the fact we squandered our ball after securing it.

We've got an impressive pack - we should be picking Reddan. At this stage however there is no doubt that Reddan > Murray. So why not just pick Reddan?

Why would you pick a scrumhalf who is going to fling it out to your wings to get hammered in the tackle?

irishbucsfan

Dunno what I'm reading here. Slow drift. Leinster blitz.

sydthebeat

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Leinster employ a drift too

:rolleyes:

watch any of this years HC matches and see where leinster find a flatter line a hell of a lot quicker than ireland, and more often than not youll see BOD, Darcy or nacewa.. and even fitzgerald... break the line to tackle the ball receiver.... call that 'drift' if you want but more often than not there no gain to the opposition.

watch the first 30 seconds here, see how off opposition rucks the leinster lines moves visibly towards to ball... thats how leinster defend.

Fishooks12

sydthebeat wrote: »

:rolleyes:

watch any of this years HC matches and see where leinster find a flatter line a hell of a lot quicker than ireland, and more often than not youll see BOD, Darcy or nacewa.. and even fitzgerald... break the line to tackle the ball receiver.... call that 'drift' if you want but more often than not there no gain to the opposition.

watch the first 30 seconds here, see how off opposition rucks the leinster lines moves visibly towards to ball... thats how leinster defend.

I've seen nearly ever Leinster match this year, no need for the videos, I know how they defend.

You realise it's not as simple as saying one side drifts and the other side blitzes? Modern rugby is not that simplistic.

The both mix it up, one side much more effectively than the other. ALthough Ireland did it pretty well in Paris this year

Tox56

sydthebeat wrote: »

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Leinster employ a drift too

:rolleyes:

watch any of this years HC matches and see where leinster find a flatter line a hell of a lot quicker than ireland, and more often than not youll see BOD, Darcy or nacewa.. and even fitzgerald... break the line to tackle the ball receiver.... call that 'drift' if you want but more often than not there no gain to the opposition.

watch the first 30 seconds here, see how off opposition rucks the leinster lines moves visibly towards to ball... thats how leinster defend.

I don't think they have much choice, you can't really use a drift defence 10 metres from your own try line

danthefan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Reddan takes up the exact same position in defense for Leinster.

In fact there are tons of scrum halfs who pay sweeper all over the world.

Chris Whitaker was absolutely brilliant at it.

.ak

Murray

jm08 wrote: »

And there is a pattern in how they are selected. Away in France, its Boss. In front of the home crowd or a Magners team its Reddan to produce the leinstertainment.

So basically you think Reddan starts all the easy ones? :rolleyes: Pull the other one mate. Tell that to the England GS 'winners' last year or Australia.

Why would you pick a scrumhalf who is going to fling it out to your wings to get hammered in the tackle?

Who said anything throwing it out to the wings? I think you've been watching Irish rugby too much mate. Infact, why don't you look at what the new kid on the block did for ABs yesterday, you'd find a similar pattern in Reddan's role - Quick ball. Tempo. Pace. None of this translates into getting the ball out to the backs, it can mean re-fixing defenses by skipping first receiver, pass onto strike runners, know when to dummy a pod, and doing all of the above in a quick succession of phases. That is what Reddan does, and it's why when you have a strong pack like Ireland has it's extremely effective against teams and often shell-shocks them.

sydthebeat

Tox56 wrote: »

I don't think they have much choice, you can't really use a drift defence 10 metres from your own try line

EXACTLY... look at saveas second try .. !!!!!!!!!!!!!

danthefan

jm08 wrote: »

And there is a pattern in how they are selected. Away in France, its Boss. In front of the home crowd or a Magners team its Reddan to produce the leinstertainment.

Reddan has started 12 out of 18 HEC games over the last two seasons (incidentally that's a lot more than Murray), including 5 out of 6 knockouts. He gets the majority of the big games.

irishbucsfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

:rolleyes:

watch any of this years HC matches and see where leinster find a flatter line a hell of a lot quicker than ireland, and more often than not youll see BOD, Darcy or nacewa.. and even fitzgerald... break the line to tackle the ball receiver.... call that 'drift' if you want but more often than not there no gain to the opposition.

watch the first 30 seconds here, see how off opposition rucks the leinster lines moves visibly towards to ball... thats how leinster defend.

A blitz defense is a full line advance to the ball carrier. That hasn't been employed succesfully by anyone since the Argentinians. It only works when it isn't targeted as its very simple to beat as it is too aggressive.

Leinster started defending well under McQuilkin using a hybrid defense. Advancing hard but paddling out. That was extremely effective but it is utterly dependent on someone like Brian O'Driscoll to call it. So it's not very sustainable. It was probably the best defense in Europe. Leinster have never used a blitz defense, even if some lazy journalists have just kept using the term. Under Schmidt they eased off a lot and are a lot more similar to a SH drift defense now. A lot less hard headed but a lot less dependent on personnel. A good decision in the end because we'd have been in trouble without Drico if McQuilkin was still coach.

A lot of teams use a "rabbit" or "hare" or whatever to break the line against an overlap. Ireland do as well. Every Irish province does it also.

And Reddan and Boss BOTH sit behind the defense as sweepers iirc. It is good for two reasons, firstly allowing them to make tackles if there's a line break and secondly allowing them to react very quickly if there's a turnover.

sydthebeat

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I've seen nearly ever Leinster match this year, no need for the videos, I know how they defend.

You realise it's not as simple as saying one side drifts and the other side blitzes? Modern rugby is not that simplistic.

The both mix it up, one side much more effectively than the other. ALthough Ireland did it pretty well in Paris this year

agreed that is too simplistic to label it, but much of irelands defense yesterday, in open play, reminded me of the wales game in the last 6N... very passive.

i dont think you could describe any of Leinsters defense at any stage lately as being passive.

irishbucsfan

danthefan wrote: »

Chris Whitaker was absolutely brilliant at it.

Where is Whitaker now?

Fishooks12

sydthebeat wrote: »

agreed that is too simplistic to label it, but much of irelands defense yesterday, in open play, reminded me of the wales game in the last 6N... very passive.

i dont think you could describe any of Leinsters defense at any stage lately as being passive.

I wouldn't, we'd agree there

danthefan

There was an issue with passive defence in the 6N too, was highlighted a bit in the media.

Tox56

Leinster are experts in defence of knowing what to do and when, they know when to commit to the ruck to slow things down and when to fan out and leave no space. It helps when almost everyone on your team is capable of acting like a 7 at the breakdown.

They also know when to attack the ball carrier, if they have numbers in defence they will rush the first and second recievers, but then drift to ensure the opposition run out of room.

Rarely will you see Leinster (or anyone really) going for an all out blitz defence.

It's a thing of beauty when done well, and Leinster do it better than almost anyone (in the club game anyway). It's great as a supporter to have so much faith in their defence

.ak

Murray

danthefan wrote: »

Chris Whitaker was absolutely brilliant at it.

Stringer was one of the first players I noticed using it to brilliant effect.

But to be fair, it's more of a thing used to counter chip kicks rather than being a first up tackler to a breaking attacker.

thomond2006

Murray

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Where is Whitaker now?

was team manager at Stade Francais but was let go along with Chieka, he's been linked to a position at Narbonne with Matt Williams.

totallegend

Here's Peter O'Reilly of the Sunday Times and one of the better rugby journos:

"If they (Ireland) aspire to play a quick, ball-in-hand game in the Leinster style, then they need to pick Eoin Reddan at scrum-half. Kidney's selection of Conor Murray backfired because he cannot clear the ball quickly."

and

"Player rating: Conor Murray 5
Ponderous on his scrum feed and unable to clear the ball quickly. A poor selection if Ireland were to play at pace."

.ak

Murray

LordSmeg wrote: »

That's it. If he doesn't want to play the tempo game then why have Zebo, Earls and McFadden in the backline? Stick with the Trimbles and grind out results if you're playing like that... Everything Kidney does is just bizarre.

danthefan

Remember, Kidney picked O'Leary time and time again over Reddan and O'Leary was significantly worse that Murray. Any sense of rationality just goes out the window with Kidney in certain circumstances.

AdamD

He had a good game today imo, very few (if any) mistakes.