Superstition, lore and the fairy fort.

slowburner

Without doubt, many of our ancient monuments have been preserved through the longevity and perseverance of associated myths, lore and superstition.
I thought it might be interesting for readers of this forum to have a browse through the relatively recent threads below.
I think both threads are enlightening - if read as a gauge of contemporary beliefs about the consequences of interference with ancient heritage.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72767913

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=77964723

Mountainsandh

Interesting.
Slowburner this might be silly, but reading about pre historical remains in Ireland, I was rather struck by the lack of portal tombs etc... in my particular area (West Waterford/Dungarvan). I wondered then could it be that farmers in the area (going back before preservation laws) tended to be less superstitious, and might have removed more archeological evidence than in other areas.
Every time I look at a map of soils etc... now, I try to figure out if there is a correlation between fertility of the soil/potential agricultural value, and the frequency of prehistorical remains. Well, it should be a given really, that more fertile areas would have been used more, and therefore tampered with more, but I often what exactly was the deal with Co Waterford.
Why would there have been less portal (and other) tombs built here in the first place ??? There are standing stones, there are tombs all around in Cos Cork, Tipperary, KilKenny... and some in East Waterford.
Maybe there was a bubble of farming people with a different way of thinking around this area. Maybe it's the fact that is was less touristy than West Cork, Kerry, Clare ?
Plenty of piseogs here too though.

edit : actually looking at my post, I wonder is it to do with the landlords too...

Poor Uncle Tom

There are actually plenty of remains in West Waterford. If you have the time you could visit the Teagasc office in Shandon, Dungarvan some day and just ask if you could speak to anyone about the recorded sites and monuments in the county. It might also be worth contacting the Conservation Officer in Waterford County Council for a chat. I'm sure you will find there are lots of sites around.

Mountainsandh

Thanks Poor Uncle Tom, I have the Archeological Survey book for Co Waterford, Monu-mental Waterford, The Waterford Coast book, and look frequently at the OSI maps documenting archeological remains.
Of course there are a lot of prehistorical spots in Co Waterford, few tombs though as far as I know. I think there are a few near Tramore, and then just one in Ring.
I am wondering how it is though, that from the town of Dungarvan up and West, there are no tombs recorded. Ringforts, stone alignments, and enclosures are in this area, no tombs as far as I know. Even as regards ringforts and stone alignments, I have a feeling there probably are less than in other areas. Good few ogham and standing stones, which might have been less in the way ?

Poor Uncle Tom

Isn't there a burial mound in Kilnafrehan? I always thought there were two very close to one another but when I checked the maps just now, they both seem to be on the old map and only one on the newer ones.

Mountainsandh

Don't know about Kilnafrehan, there are cairns in the Comeraghs allright, and the Knockmealdowns...
... to illustrate my point, here is the Monu-mental map of the County, hope it's ok Slowburner, it's only a poor pic of it, but the blank area is what I'm talking about.


edit : the lone thing on the way to Cappoquin is Kilgreany Cave, and of course, there being a few caves around the Dungarvan area, that could explain there was no need to build tombs. But the blank area expands really as far as Lismore and the West County border.

Poor Uncle Tom

That's very interesting. Regarding the caves, I remember reading on an old map that there were remains of a mammoth found in a cave at Shandon (where the mart is now) in the 1859, I just found a link....

http://www.waterfordcountymuseum.org/exhibit/web/WAIVersion/article/5/3/

byhookorbycrook

My mother is from a farming background and would be highly superstitious, as were her parents.
What about DrumlohanWe used ot be brought there as kids with strict instructions not to pick any flowers or even take a stone from the entire site.
Interesting (to me anyhow) list of sites here:
http://www.megalithomania.com/show/county/waterford.htm

Mountainsandh

That Drumlohan site looks great, got to go there some day, my MIL lives over there. That's the other side though, still nothing to the West of that, apart from a portal tomb in Ring I think.

slowburner

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Interesting.
Slowburner this might be silly, but reading about pre historical remains in Ireland, I was rather struck by the lack of portal tombs etc... in my particular area (West Waterford/Dungarvan). I wondered then could it be that farmers in the area (going back before preservation laws) tended to be less superstitious, and might have removed more archeological evidence than in other areas.
Every time I look at a map of soils etc... now, I try to figure out if there is a correlation between fertility of the soil/potential agricultural value, and the frequency of prehistorical remains. Well, it should be a given really, that more fertile areas would have been used more, and therefore tampered with more, but I often what exactly was the deal with Co Waterford.
Why would there have been less portal (and other) tombs built here in the first place ??? There are standing stones, there are tombs all around in Cos Cork, Tipperary, KilKenny... and some in East Waterford.
Maybe there was a bubble of farming people with a different way of thinking around this area. Maybe it's the fact that is was less touristy than West Cork, Kerry, Clare ?
Plenty of piseogs here too though.

edit : actually looking at my post, I wonder is it to do with the landlords too...

It's an interesting observation, it's far from silly, but you have to ask if it's accurate.
This screenshot taken from Archaeology.ie does seem to show a greater density of ancient monuments east of the Finisk river.
(A statistician could have great fun with tests of significance on this.)




As to the reasons why there might be fewer - well there could be a lifetime's study in that.
You've already touched on later land use.
Historically, that's the principal reason for the demise of the vast majority of our monuments - the plough is a devastating tool for archaeology.
Coincidentally, I was at a seminar near the area yesterday. I was struck by the intensity of agriculture there (busy, busy).

Would you consider this area to be part of the Golden Vale?
If so, then agriculture is the most likely culprit. It's possible that the desire to use that rich productive land over rode any form of superstition.
It would be worthwhile to compare the relative size and shape of fields in each area.
If the field boundaries in the area with fewer antiquities are straighter and the fields are bigger, then that indicates more intensive land use and the removal of earlier field boundaries.



The other approach you could take, is to ask if the monuments were there in the first place.

There are two ways you could get some sort of an answer:
1. Historical and documentary evidence.
2. Landscape Archaeology.

You can get an enormous amount of information for either approach online.
For documentary evidence, the Journals of the Kilkenny Archaeological Society might be worth looking up and having a browse through.
That could be a tough job though - looking for sites and monuments which have been destroyed
In terms of Landscape Archaeology, (more fun) the online resources for viewing aerial photography are fabulous.
As mentioned above, signs of earlier field boundaries, either as earthworks or crop marks, could tell you a lot about later land use.

The other point you raised, is that there might have been a different attitude amongst the landlords towards the preservation of antiquities.
There might well have been, and it's an interesting thought, but it's more of an historical question than an archaeological one.

slowburner

For anyone interested in Waterford archaeology, the county council library website is a great resource - it should be the envy of all other county libraries.
Here are two links below, which might be worth browsing through.
The Decies link has an interesting paper on a visitor's view of the countryside mentioned above:
As others saw us: Waterford in Inglis's Journey throughout Ireland in 1834. (Decies No. 45. Spring 1992)
Journals
Mapping

Mountainsandh

Thanks Slowburner, only registered with the library myself 2 weeks ago, and was looking forward to having access to census info and maps etc... but the lady said that was only from the library computers.
I was hoping registering would give me access to that from home, as it's very hard for me to find some time to go there without kids.
Although I know some census info is already freely available, I think there are maybe things like land registry records or something.

The Dungarvan Museum website is remarkable, you could spend hours and hours reading the articles, about everything from wreckages to prehistory, and there's a fantastic collection of old photographs.

edit : Waterford County Museum link

Mountainsandh

I had a look at what you were saying about field boundaries etc... looking at aerial photographs and comparing with the archeology.ie records is interesting allright. An area that had 2 or 3 records is not too far from the golf course for example.

The records on archeology.ie too are telling : there are enclosures, earthworks, ringforts, burnt mounds, churches ... but no portal/wedge tombs at all. But what they tell I don't know
Anyway, I'm really just looking at these things for pure fun, so I might glean more info as time goes by, no worries.

Don't know about the Golden Vale, off to Google with me :pac:.

Sorry for derailing your thread.

BFDCH.

my GF was telling me a few weeks ago about the fate that befell the farmer next to her nanny's land when he bulldozed a ringfort (there are a lot in that area). he ended up getting locked and falling in between some stacked hay-bails, he didn't get out alive. He was found after a few days searching and the locals all atributed it to the fairys.

slowburner

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I had a look at what you were saying about field boundaries etc... looking at aerial photographs and comparing with the archeology.ie records is interesting allright. An area that had 2 or 3 records is not too far from the golf course for example.

The records on archeology.ie too are telling : there are enclosures, earthworks, ringforts, burnt mounds, churches ... but no portal/wedge tombs at all. But what they tell I don't know
Anyway, I'm really just looking at these things for pure fun, so I might glean more info as time goes by, no worries.

Don't know about the Golden Vale, off to Google with me :pac:.

Sorry for derailing your thread.

Tombs (court/portal/wedge) would be a nuisance to any serious farmer.
Imagine a fine big upstanding tomb in the middle of a field.
First of all, the land under the tomb itself is lost for production.
More importantly for the landowner, the plough has to make wider and wider circles around the obstacle as the seasons pass - so more land is lost.
Another farming practice which occurs when a patch of land is left undisturbed, is that stones which have been cleared from the field tend to be dumped in that spot.
Again more land is lost as time progresses and more stones are added.
With modern machinery, those turning circles become even greater, and modern practice favours straight lines for increased efficiency.

It's to be expected that in an area of intensive agriculture, especially on fertile ground, efficiency is the rule, and obstacles will be removed.
Mostly, these will be objects which are above ground, such as tombs and standing stones.
Other monuments might be destroyed above ground level too, but evidence for their existence may survive below ground.

Many of the records on the SMR (Sites and Monuments Record) show low to ground level enclosures etc. which were visible on the first edition OS maps.
Many of them were gone by the time of the second edition but the sites were visited as a function of the SMR in recent times (I think 1997 was the last hard copy update?).
They are still recorded, even though they might only exist as crop marks, or barely perceptible earthworks.
Frequently, the record states "not visible at ground level".
Sadly, if antiquities disappeared before the mapping of 1838, there is unlikely to be any formal record of their ever having existed.

slowburner

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Although I know some census info is already freely available, I think there are maybe things like land registry records or something.

Griffith's valuation is a great online resource for C.19th research.
It can take a little time to get your head around how to use it, but it's worth taking the time.
You can view maps of the area you are interested in, and the dwellings are numbered and cross referenced to the inhabitants.