RSA leaflet: using the correct lane on roundabouts

Iwannahurl

It seems roundabout issues haven't gone away you know, hence this thread.

Last year there was a massive thread in Motors in which opinion was polarised regarding the correct lane to use on a particular roundabout.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056163797

It emerged that there was no RSA publication aimed at the general public explicitly setting out their official position on lane choice, which of course is the Golden Rule or 'clock method'.

Apparently that changed in February of this year with the publication of the leaflet "Roundabouts: using the correct lane".

Good news. Perhaps the RSA noticed the discussion(s) on Boards?

Eddie Smart

Everyone has to follow the golden rule on roundabouts and then we will see less problems on our roads.

Mycroft H

screen grab for those on mobile/too lazy to open pdf

djimi

Leaflets and TV ads dont ever seem to have much impact unfortunately. Only way I can see to get through the average morons thick skull about things like roundabouts and lane habits is with large road side signage, and bringing in a system where it is a punishable offence to use the wrong lane or to use a roundabout incorrectly. Give middle lane hoggers or idiots who cant use roundabouts 2 points every time they get it wrong and they will learn fairly fast!

Iwannahurl

At least there's now a hymn sheet we can all sing from.

Colonel Sanders

djimi wrote: »

Leaflets and TV ads dont ever seem to have much impact unfortunately. Only way I can see to get through the average morons thick skull about things like roundabouts and lane habits is with large road side signage, and bringing in a system where it is a punishable offence to use the wrong lane or to use a roundabout incorrectly. Give middle lane hoggers or idiots who cant use roundabouts 2 points every time they get it wrong and they will learn fairly fast!

Couldn't agree more. Enforcement along with education

I've lost count of the people I've driven with who, when I've pointed out (politely) why not to use middle lane etc, have simply said something along the lines of "Look I'm the one driving the car". Fine these people 40 quid a go & they'll soon cop on.

Education is still necessary, I remember once pointing to an overhead gantry on the M50 stating something along the lines of "keep left unless over taking". Yer man replied, I'm keeping left out of the fast lane. That there is the slow lane".

I'm a daily M50 user & would estimate in excess of 80% of drivers either don't know which lane to use or don't care. A not insignificant number never leave lane 3. Stick a few squad cars out & they'd pay for themselves in no time

Still it's a shocking indication of the driving test system that people can walk away with full licence & not know basics like this.

wonski

I like the bit about pollution... Is it everything these days about reducing pollution?

As for reducing accidents, for most drivers it is easier to follow traffic lights rather than negotiating roundabout whith people who have no clue.

The problem with those leaflets is, that those who want to know how to use roundabout will find out, but those who don't care will continue to drive as they like.

Colonel Sanders

wonski wrote: »

The problem with those leaflets is, that those who want to know how to use roundabout will find out, but those who don't care will continue to drive as they like.

That's why education without enforcement is pointless

It's like drink driving, apparently people's attitudes have changed. I don't agree at all, I think people are afraid they'll be caught and have to face the consequences

Where To

Looks good.

Unfortunately the people most likely to make a hash of using a roundabout are the one least likely to read a RSA publication

jsd1004

Hopefully now people might actually use indicators on the approach to a roundabout if they are turning right and not just suddenly veer around the roundabout when you expect them to go straight on..

blackwhite

jsd1004 wrote: »

Hopefully now people might actually use indicators on the approach to a roundabout if they are turning right and not just suddenly veer around the roundabout when you expect them to go straight on..

Or not indicate right going straight on (exiting at 12 o'clock).......

zapata

wonski wrote: »

I like the bit about pollution... Is it everything these days about reducing pollution?

If they care that much about pollution, they should level every speed ramp in the country - decelerate\accelerate\decelerate\accelerate etc. Strawberry Beds and north road in Phoenix Park in Dublin are good examples.

Bigcheeze

"Going straight ahead
(or any exit to the
left of 12 o’clock)
approach in the lefthand lane (unless road
markings say otherwise)
but do not indicate ‘left’
until you have passed
the exit before the one
you intend to take.
Where traffic conditions dictate otherwise for example
a long line of traffic in left lane signalling left or road
works in the left lane, you may follow the course
shown by the broken red line."

This bit in bold seems to be new and is effectively saying you are free to use the right lane if going straight through. My main gripe with the clock system was that it stupidly forced most of the traffic into the left lane on a dual carriageway. It appears they have now seen sense on this point.

Cookie_Monster

Even with the above there's no real clarification of whether the 6 o clock point should be in line with the line of the road as you enter the roundabout or in line with actually being stopped at the line. since many roundabout entries veer sharply to the left just as you enter it still leaves room for confusion IMO

ie, which is the 6 o clock line in this simple example?

Bigcheeze

the imaginary line should go through the centre of the roundabout. Pretty clear its the red line imo.

whyulittle

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Even with the above there's no real clarification of whether the 6 o clock point should be in line with the line of the road as you enter the roundabout or in line with actually being stopped at the line. since many roundabout entries veer sharply to the left just as you enter it still leaves room for confusion IMO

ie, which is the 6 o clock line in this simple example?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/123617/208066.JPG

The sign on the approach would show it as straight ahead.

wonski

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Even with the above there's no real clarification of whether the 6 o clock point should be in line with the line of the road as you enter the roundabout or in line with actually being stopped at the line. since many roundabout entries veer sharply to the left just as you enter it still leaves room for confusion IMO

ie, which is the 6 o clock line in this simple example?

The road goes straight, they veer sharply to the left as they should, this is to make sure you go left.

If you want to be sure approach every roundabout from right lane, indicate right, go around it and have a quick look, and then take yor exit.

Are you a learner, if so, then get some lessons. Don't want to be rude but since we have RSA document explaining roundabouts, i thought we are done with this thing. Do we need to discuss how 6'o clock rule works?

Marty McFly

Yes the majority of people dont know how to use correct lanes when on a roundabout. But for example theres a well known roundabout in Clondalkin were it was notorious for people taking the wrong lane for the wrong exits I myself suffered a crash on the roundabout due to someone taking the wrong exit and coming into the side of me.

So what do they do? They change the signage on the roundabout and reverse the normal rules were as you now take the right lane entry point to go straight and right on the roundabout and the left lane entry point on to take the first exit.

How will people ever learn? not only did they change the layout but they had no signs up to warn people of the change in layout so had I taken the left lane and the same thing happened again I would be in the wrong :rolleyes:

wonski

Marty McFly wrote: »

Yes the majority of people dont know how to use correct lanes when on a roundabout. But for example theres a well known roundabout in Clondalkin were it was notorious for people taking the wrong lane for the wrong exits I myself suffered a crash on the roundabout due to someone taking the wrong exit and coming into the side of me.

So what do they do? They change the signage on the roundabout and reverse the normal rules were as you now take the right lane entry point to go straight and right on the roundabout and the left lane entry point on to take the first exit.

How will people ever learn? not only did they change the layout but they had no signs up to warn people of the change in layout so had I taken the left lane and the same thing happened again I would be in the wrong :rolleyes:

Confirm that the signage is totally wrong sometimes, and it is better to have none at all so you are more careful...

The thing is, people can't cope with basic 4-exits round abouts. Everyone seems to be doing it with different approach.

I remember first time (luckily don't go there to often now) at Walkinstown Roundabout, there is no way to figure out what lane and what exit, if you are there for the first time. And i understand if problems are there, that it is down to lack of local knowledge, etc, but if you have one of hundreds of local roundabouts with 1-2 lanes and just 4 exits (3 exits actually), there is nothing that can go wrong. BUT there always is something....

Cookie_Monster

wonski wrote: »

Are you a learner, if so, then get some lessons. Don't want to be rude but since we have RSA document explaining roundabouts, i thought we are done with this thing. Do we need to discuss how 6'o clock rule works?

no I'm not a learner. and yeah I do want to discuss how it works because reading the leaflet makes it sound like its 12/6 o clock from your direct point of view which will be skewed to the left at the point you enter it, essentially meaning far more people than required will stick to the right lane incorrectly.

I'm just tired of their oversimplification and perfect 4 exit straight road roundabout diagram for every conceivable roundabout when it would be so much more helpful to most people to have a couple of simple variations shown.

wonski

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

no I'm not a learner. and yeah I do want to discuss how it works because reading the leaflet makes it sound like its 12/6 o clock from your direct point of view which will be skewed to the left at the point you enter it, essentially meaning far more people than required will stick to the right lane incorrectly.

I'm just tired of their oversimplification and perfect 4 exit straight road roundabout diagram for every conceivable roundabout when it would be so much more helpful to most people to have a couple of simple variations shown.

Have a look again at the picture you posted, and think again. The position of the car at a line has nothing to do with an angle of the road you come from, and the exit you take. I don't know how to explain it, but this particular roundabout is simple and straightforward.

There are some where it is not as simple, but as long as drivers use common sense, and polite if needed, nothing should happen.

In my view 3 lane roundabouts with more exits may be difficult sometimes, but can't see ANY difficulties with your roundabout, and pretty easy to define 6/12 o'clock there.

Cookie_Monster

wonski wrote: »

Have a look again at the picture you posted, and think again. The position of the car at a line has nothing to do with an angle of the road you come from, and the exit you take. I don't know how to explain it, but this particular roundabout is simple and straightforward.

There are some where it is not as simple, but as long as drivers use common sense, and polite if needed, nothing should happen.

In my view 3 lane roundabouts with more exits may be difficult sometimes, but can't see ANY difficulties with your roundabout, and pretty easy to define 6/12 o'clock there.

which why I picked such an example. I agree it should be the red line. But take the same roundabout but coming from the road at the bottom, what's the answer there because if you go back along the line of the road even 100m the first exit is past the 12 o clock point...

http://goo.gl/maps/U5rr

wonski

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

which why I picked such an example. I agree it should be the red line. But take the same roundabout but coming from the road at the bottom, what's the answer there because if you go back along the line of the road even 100m the first exit is past the 12 o clock point...

http://goo.gl/maps/U5rr

Which explains why there is simplified signage. I don't know - maybe i am different or something, but 12'o clock is straight ahead for me (well, it can be a bit out but we are not back at school, are we.?)

We have a saying : You are looking for a hole int the whole... not sure if it is correct translation, but i think it is a bit funny. Good night and hope you get more answers. 6'o clock is close, so i do need to go.

Del2005

Marty McFly wrote: »

Yes the majority of people dont know how to use correct lanes when on a roundabout. But for example theres a well known roundabout in Clondalkin were it was notorious for people taking the wrong lane for the wrong exits I myself suffered a crash on the roundabout due to someone taking the wrong exit and coming into the side of me.

So what do they do? They change the signage on the roundabout and reverse the normal rules were as you now take the right lane entry point to go straight and right on the roundabout and the left lane entry point on to take the first exit.

How will people ever learn? not only did they change the layout but they had no signs up to warn people of the change in layout so had I taken the left lane and the same thing happened again I would be in the wrong :rolleyes:

They should have high level signs a few hundred meters from non standard roundabouts. I don't know how many times I've arrived at an unknown roundabout with a queue of traffic only to barely notice a worn out arrow on the road 5m from the junction telling me I'm in the wrong lane.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

which why I picked such an example. I agree it should be the red line. But take the same roundabout but coming from the road at the bottom, what's the answer there because if you go back along the line of the road even 100m the first exit is past the 12 o clock point...

http://goo.gl/maps/U5rr

Can we not do this again? Since the only people who it's affects are boards users, the general public will continue to do as they please on the roads till there's enforcement.

Iwannahurl

Someone made the point earlier that those road users most likely to make a hash of a roundabout may well be those least likely to read an RSA guide.

So I wonder how motorists in general will get their hands on the leaflet. Where will they see it? Is it to be distributed, and if so where?

The RSA typically use the standard 4-arm roundabout in their guidelines. However, they also state that road users should observe signage and road markings and act accordingly.

Unfortunately, IMO, Irish roundabouts often feature poor signage and layout, which compounds the problem of widespread poor driving (whether uneducated, ignorant, careless or dangerous). Inadequate deflection, the purpose of which is to slow down traffic for safety reasons, leads to inappropriately high speed in some situations, which makes the roundabout experience worse, especially for inexperienced/nervous drivers and vulnerable road users such as pedestrians and cyclists.

BTW, how does the new RSA guide tally with this instructional video from the Irish School of Motoring?

You'll notice that ISM refer to First/Second/Third exits etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR-iuHWxbh0

blackwhite

Bigcheeze wrote: »

"Going straight ahead
(or any exit to the
left of 12 o’clock)
approach in the lefthand lane (unless road
markings say otherwise)
but do not indicate ‘left’
until you have passed
the exit before the one
you intend to take.
Where traffic conditions dictate otherwise for example
a long line of traffic in left lane signalling left or road
works in the left lane, you may follow the course
shown by the broken red line."

This bit in bold seems to be new and is effectively saying you are free to use the right lane if going straight through. My main gripe with the clock system was that it stupidly forced most of the traffic into the left lane on a dual carriageway. It appears they have now seen sense on this point.

It only says that you can do so "where traffic conditions dictate otherwise". This doesn't mean you can use the right hand lane because you feel like it, or because you're trying to get past that slow Yaris. There still needs to be a solid reason for not using the left hand lane.

Also note the example specifies "a long line of traffic indicating left" - this would imply that you can use it to skip a queue of traffic that's going straight on, only if the majority of traffic in the left lane will be taking an earlier exit.

Bigcheeze

blackwhite wrote: »

It only says that you can do so "where traffic conditions dictate otherwise". This doesn't mean you can use the right hand lane because you feel like it, or because you're trying to get past that slow Yaris. There still needs to be a solid reason for not using the left hand lane.

Also note the example specifies "a long line of traffic indicating left" - this would imply that you can use it to skip a queue of traffic that's going straight on, only if the majority of traffic in the left lane will be taking an earlier exit.

It gives examples. It's not an exhaustive list of reasons to use the right lane.

IMO it's effectively saying that use of the left lane is preferred but use your common sense and judgement to use the right lane as appropriate. Clearly where there are roundabouts on dual carriageways it is common sense for the through traffic to use both lanes rather than having most traffic try to merge into one lane and then fan out again after the roundabout.

hi5

The last green roundabout diagram is wrong, the superimposed clock should be twisted so that the 6 oclock should be at the entrance:rolleyes:

Mc Love

I was taught that if you are taking the 1st or 2nd exit you should be in the left lane and for every subsequent exit you should be in the right lane.

I have seen people that havent a clue how to use an indicator stay in the left lane when taking the 3rd exit even though they should be clearly in the right lane

mfceiling

My little van is at the stage where I don't give a flying fcuk if someone hits it...so....the next time I'm on a roundabout and I'm turning right and I'm in the right hand lane, if the cnut in the left lane is going straight on but decides to drive straight across me, well, I'm not standing on the brakes....you'll be wearing my van.

The amount of times I nearly get written off by idiots who do not understand what lane to be in is unreal.

The roundabout at the top of my road is a great example. People who want to go straight on and see 6 or 7 cars in front of them will skip up the outside (right lane)....then drive straight through...most of the time they nearly get lamped, and only for the car in the correct lane letting them in there would be 20 or 30 crashes every day.

Iwannahurl

mfceiling wrote: »

The amount of times I nearly get written off...

And yet the promoters (and "designers") of roundabouts in this country would claim they are safer than other junction types.

Something wrong somewhere design-wise. And no, it can't be just down to driver behaviour and lane discipline. Roundabouts are meant to be inherently safer.

Pity the poor pedestrians and cyclists. If vans are nearly written off practically as a matter of routine, what hope have these vulnerable road users with no metal box, seat-belts and air-bags to protect them? No wonder so many cyclists especially loathe, avoid or inappropriately navigate Irish roundabouts.

Mc Love

mfceiling wrote: »

The roundabout at the top of my road is a great example. People who want to go straight on and see 6 or 7 cars in front of them will skip up the outside (right lane)....then drive straight through...most of the time they nearly get lamped, and only for the car in the correct lane letting them in there would be 20 or 30 crashes every day.

Well according to the ISM video they are entitled to use the right lane for driving straight on if there is an obstruction in the left lane :rolleyes:

Del2005

Iwannahurl wrote: »

And yet the promoters (and "designers") of roundabouts in this country would claim they are safer than other junction types.

Something wrong somewhere design-wise. And no, it can't be just down to driver behaviour and lane discipline. Roundabouts are meant to be inherently safer.

Pity the poor pedestrians and cyclists. If vans are nearly written off practically as a matter of routine, what hope have these vulnerable road users with no metal box, seat-belts and air-bags to protect them? No wonder so many cyclists especially loathe, avoid or inappropriately navigate Irish roundabouts.

It's totally down to driver behaviour due to a complete lack of any Road Traffic legislation bar speeding and DUI being actively enforced.

Look at the 4 way stops in the USA. Do you think for a second they'd work here?

Similarly how many drivers stop when a pedestrian takes a junction at a roundabout? Hence the danger to pedestrians

All the other countries I've driven in have similar laws to our junction laws and there pedestrians just walk onto the road as they know cars will stop. Here I'm still checking every when crossing with lights never mind at an uncontrolled junction.

mfceiling

Mc Love wrote: »

Well according to the ISM video they are entitled to use the right lane for driving straight on if there is an obstruction in the left lane :rolleyes:

Where's the obstruction?

Can't wait their turn so they drive up the outside of everyone else and cut in front of the people who are waiting in the "correct" lane to go straight ahead.

Where's the obstruction?:rolleyes:

Iwannahurl

Del2005 wrote: »

It's totally down to driver behaviour due to a complete lack of any Road Traffic legislation bar speeding and DUI being actively enforced.

Look at the 4 way stops in the USA. Do you think for a second they'd work here?

Similarly how many drivers stop when a pedestrian takes a junction at a roundabout? Hence the danger to pedestrians

All the other countries I've driven in have similar laws to our junction laws and there pedestrians just walk onto the road as they know cars will stop. Here I'm still checking every when crossing with lights never mind at an uncontrolled junction.

Well, I wouldn't say other road traffic violations are being ignored. The Penalty Point stats bear this out. Speed and DUI are major risk factors and they deserve major attention.

However, I would like to see a much higher level of enforcement in relation to other types of misbehaviour. We are too lax in that regard, IMO, and even just a greater level of Garda visibility would help to concentrate minds.

I wouldn't hold my breath though. When I see a Garda vehicle traversing a roundabout I often take a good look to see how they do it. Surprisingly often the driver does not indicate at all. Tut tut.

wonski

Del2005 wrote: »

It's totally down to driver behaviour due to a complete lack of any Road Traffic legislation bar speeding and DUI being actively enforced.

Look at the 4 way stops in the USA. Do you think for a second they'd work here?

Similarly how many drivers stop when a pedestrian takes a junction at a roundabout? Hence the danger to pedestrians

All the other countries I've driven in have similar laws to our junction laws and there pedestrians just walk onto the road as they know cars will stop. Here I'm still checking every when crossing with lights never mind at an uncontrolled junction.

Speeding is actively enforced, and most drivers are not to happy about it.
DUI - been breathalyzed only once in 3 years time...

As for the 4 way stops (USA style) - no, they wouldn't. When the traffic lights are faulty here, i kind of like it. Green one for me all the time. People seem to be confused and forget which one is minor road...

As for the pedestrians - they should look both sides too, before crossing the road. In some countries pedestrians can get tickets if they cross at red light, or in the wrong place. In Ireland they just walk onto the road without even looking. How the pedestrian knows if the car stops? What country is this you are talking about???

Cookie_Monster

Del2005 wrote: »

Look at the 4 way stops in the USA. Do you think for a second they'd work here?

we have at least one in Killiney. In my experience for the most part, those on the old 'main road' still think they have right of way through the junction and don't always stop or give way.

Vertakill

Bigcheeze wrote: »

This bit in bold seems to be new and is effectively saying you are free to use the right lane if going straight through. My main gripe with the clock system was that it stupidly forced most of the traffic into the left lane on a dual carriageway. It appears they have now seen sense on this point.

That's the only thing they needed to add a loooong time ago and it would allievate a lot of the confusion.
If there's a few cars lined up in the left lane all going left, and you want to go straight through, you shouldn't need to line up with them - it makes sense.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

BTW, how does the new RSA guide tally with this instructional video from the Irish School of Motoring?

You'll notice that ISM refer to First/Second/Third exits etc.

Welcome back to the roundabout thread(s) Iwannahurl - last time I seen a post of yours was in that huuuge thread

And I agree here, there's a bit of an overlap here and there's some misleading information.

Del2005

wonski wrote: »

As for the pedestrians - they should look both sides too, before crossing the road. In some countries pedestrians can get tickets if they cross at red light, or in the wrong place. In Ireland they just walk onto the road without even looking.

As I said none of our road traffic laws are actively enforced and from reading a thread on a different forum here it appears our jay walking laws don't exist or are totally unenforceable, I can't find it now.

Because even if they are in the wrong it's still the drivers fault for hitting them, so why should they bother checking if it's safe?

wonski wrote: »

How the pedestrian knows if the car stops?

They have either a green light or have taken the junction. Active enforcement means that all road users obey the laws.

wonski wrote: »

What country is this you are talking about???

USA and a northern main land Europe.

matt-dublin

Bigcheeze wrote: »

It gives examples. It's not an exhaustive list of reasons to use the right lane.

IMO it's effectively saying that use of the left lane is preferred but use your common sense and judgement to use the right lane as appropriate. Clearly where there are roundabouts on dual carriageways it is common sense for the through traffic to use both lanes rather than having most traffic try to merge into one lane and then fan out again after the roundabout.

So if not every car is indicating left you cant use the right lane on the 6 o clock exit of a roundabout?

but you can't tell if every car is indicating left from the back of the queue....

which means yes, you can use the right lane in a two lane roundabout to exit at 6, everything prior to that should really be the left lane.

wonski

Del2005 wrote: »

As I said none of our road traffic laws are actively enforced and from reading a thread on a different forum here it appears our jay walking laws don't exist or are totally unenforceable, I can't find it now.

Because even if they are in the wrong it's still the drivers fault for hitting them, so why should they bother checking if it's safe?


They have either a green light or have taken the junction. Active enforcement means that all road users obey the laws.



USA and a northern main land Europe.

This explains the differences - eastern part of Europe is different, so is Ireland...

To be honest with you i still prefer Ireland for driving over some eastern European countries. It was a bit off-topic anyway, but i agree with you, - at the same time - we are in different country now, and things work differently. Enforcement is poor, and Gardai is less visible on the road in recent months in my area. Gatso vans are more visble tough, but most of the drivers would rather see Gardai pulling cars over, than just sending tickets by post.

TheDoc

Relatively new driver myself, started September and have been on my own the last two months driving.

I had no experience and went with an instructor straight away, and always had a little chuckle at this ads on the radio.

It is only since being out on my own and watching how the vast majority of people treat and deal with roundabouts that its not funny anymore. Its pretty scandalous, I got through three roundabouts of busy traffic on the way from my house and the amount of errors and crashes caused by poor decisions is unreal.

And this coming from someone not even on the go six months : /

BeerSteakBirds

On a recent trip to Italy, roundabouts were a hair raising experience when I encountered them connecting fast moving national roads and motorways and many Italians didn't obey their speed limits either for most of my trip entering the roundabouts at very high speeds.
Anyone who plans to be driving abroad on the opposite side of the road to the one we are used to should definitely make sure they understand the ins and outs of them especially if you are on a family holiday with kids in the back seat then this is extremely important.
Traffic will be circling the roundabout in the opposite direction to the one you are used to with a couple of lanes circling the roundabouts also in the opposite direction to ours. If you have been driving for hours, in Ireland it can be easy to rely on your automatic practical training instincts built up over years but not so when everything is new and on the opposite side. Especially if you are lost and have not chosen your exit and if the GPS and maps are inaccurate and the exits are hidden from view in awkwardly shaped roundabouts which have a couple at least 3 or 4 lanes circling at high speeds then the best advice is follow the rules but also use common sense and stay away from trouble and always check your mirrors. Driving is a very practical thing. You can be right and dead or wrong and alive.
If you can't be safe on a roundabout in Ireland then God help you elsewhere. Just bear that in mind. Especially the people driving to Poznan should consider their knowledge of the rules of the road in tricky situations.