Power Rankings (Human .v. Human games)

BigBadRob83

According to EA there will be no Fantasy Draft (very disappointing) in Madden 13. Hopefully as Paully D said this is just to get discussion and reaction going, and there will be enough backlash to include it, but if not then we will have to pick actual rosters.

It was brought up a couple of times in the Madden 13 forum that if we were picking actual rosters, then we would need some type of draft order for this.
A few suggestions were made;
This season's record
Overall 3 season record
Human vs. Human winning % (my suggestion)
A couple of other variations on the above

My own suggestion got me thinking, how have I done in Human v. Human games since I joined?
So I went back over the 3 season through LM to see what my results were.
12-13 (48%) vs. Human
15-3 (83%) vs. CPU

Anyway, thought it would be interesting to see what the 'Power Rankings' would be for the BFL using this measure.
We all know that the regular season record can be misleading depending on the schedule, who plays more CPU games, how many human players in your division (like the tough NFC East).

SantryRed

How did you find out wht games were human?

I'd be inclined for all 3 seasons record. If someone has had it a bit easy against the CPU for 3 seasons on this one well that should be taken into account when picking teams for the next game as they had easier games this time around so the difficulty should increase for them the next time.

helimachoptor

SantryRed wrote: »

How did you find out wht games were human?

I'd be inclined for all 3 seasons record. If someone has had it a bit easy against the CPU for 3 seasons on this one well that should be taken into account when picking teams for the next game as they had easier games this time around so the difficulty should increase for them the next time.

The problem is with that Santry, you'll have teams that have changed ownership through the seasons.
So while they may have been a 1-15 team as CPU they could be a 12-4 team and then a 11-5 team.
The bad CPU season will get them quite a jump up the pecking order

SantryRed

helimachoptor wrote: »

SantryRed wrote: »

How did you find out wht games were human?

I'd be inclined for all 3 seasons record. If someone has had it a bit easy against the CPU for 3 seasons on this one well that should be taken into account when picking teams for the next game as they had easier games this time around so the difficulty should increase for them the next time.

The problem is with that Santry, you'll have teams that have changed ownership through the seasons.
So while they may have been a 1-15 team as CPU they could be a 12-4 team and then a 11-5 team.
The bad CPU season will get them quite a jump up the pecking order

I wouldn't be including that. What I would do is only take full seasons played by each player and calculate their win percentage based on that.

BigBadRob83

SantryRed wrote: »

How did you find out wht games were human?

Just went through the games myself, remembered which were human and which weren't. There were some adjustments to what LM says (games against Colts before McG left, Browns before davetherave left, and one game in Season 1 against Broncos when HeartoftheCity was controlling them).
For a couple I wasn't sure of I checked the results' forums to see what I posted up.

If people think it's a good idea, I can put up the fixture/result list for all three seasons and everyone can check their results.

EDIT: This initially came from an idea for the draft in Madden 13, am quite interested to see what the record is like now

ibmax

Is it not the easiest way to take player playoff records and work backwards???

Irrespective of schedule and whether you play the CPU or a human, if you have a 4-0 record in the playoffs you are likely a better player than someone with an 0-2 playoff record and as such should have a later pick.

If 2 players then have the same playoff record then the one with the better (average) regular season record picks later, again regardless of opposition.

Guys who have never made the playoffs would then just be ranked based on (average) regular season record.

By applying the above it doesn't matter when a player joined or left the league as someone only playing 1 or 2 seasons could still have more playoffs wins than someone who's played for 3 seasons. :cool:

etloveslsd

Does all this really matter?

Good players will be good regardless of what team they pick. Santry was kicking ass as the Bengals in the BPL before he left and I doubt the Bengals would have been a top 10 team in the picks next year.

Danger Dave has a (lets face it) crap team with his Bills but he makes the play offs every year cause he is a good player.

adrian522

etloveslsd wrote: »

Does all this really matter?

Good players will be good regardless of what team they pick. Santry was kicking ass as the Bengals in the BPL before he left and I doubt the Bengals would have been a top 10 team in the picks next year.

Danger Dave has a (lets face it) crap team with his Bills but he makes the play offs every year cause he is a good player.

Of course it matters, try playing as the browns and then as the packers and come back and let us know if they were more or less the same.

The bengals would probably be top 10 or 12, there's a lot of worse teams than that.

What you are saying is that your roster doesn't matter that much, which I would disagree with.

You pick teams strong where you like to play, e.g may go for the ravens if you like to run a lot or want a great defense, may go with the patriots if you love to pass a lot etc.

BigBadRob83

etloveslsd wrote: »

Does all this really matter?

If we don't have a fantasy draft, then we'll need to pick teams, and need to sort out an order to pick these teams in. So yes, I think it does matter.

etloveslsd wrote: »

Good players will be good regardless of what team they pick. Santry was kicking ass as the Bengals in the BPL before he left and I doubt the Bengals would have been a top 10 team in the picks next year.

Danger Dave has a (lets face it) crap team with his Bills but he makes the play offs every year cause he is a good player.

Fantasy draft meant that all the teams should have roughly equal strength rosters, so teams in the BFL are pretty evenly matched, people got to draft their own rosters.

If you have an alternative suggestion for it though ET, then add it to the discussion

Stev_o

BigBadRob83 wrote: »

If we don't have a fantasy draft, then we'll need to pick teams, and need to sort out an order to pick these teams in. So yes, I think it does matter.



Fantasy draft meant that all the teams should have roughly equal strength rosters, so teams in the BFL are pretty evenly matched, people got to draft their own rosters.

If you have an alternative suggestion for it though ET, then add it to the discussion

That's not entirely true per say but it did allow each team to have at least 2/3 guaranteed stars. The problem with FD is that there is a lot of filler players in terms of ratings and some teams will be caught grabbing what they think is a high ranked player only to find out they have a B potential which immediately devalues them.

With 13 we will ourselves (or some one else) have to empose a ranking system on the whole 32 teams taking into account number of star players, salary cap room and so on so on. Just because you grab the Eagles doesn't mean your all that now for the next few years, you'v grabbed a team that is quite old at key positions with no heirs apparent AND a small salary cap meaning your going to regress in year 2/3 vs a team that is young and has plenty of cap room.

I don't think everything is totally black and white in terms of picking real teams.

matthew8

I want to be the Panthers next year, I'm 7-7 overall against other users so hopefully I can get them though my record should get better down the stretch. The defensive line is useless but oh my god look at that linebacking corps. 4-3 heaven.

etloveslsd

I have stated before that I would be happy to stay with the teams we are now (this was before the talk of no fantasy draft). I like my division, the guys are of a similar standard and there is banter and rivalry.

I know people want to play new people but the fixture bug should be fixed in the new game so the schedule should chance.

Has anybody asked how many people want to change teams? most of the guys who were there at the start took teams they liked, and other (like me) came along later and picked others and now have a soft spot for that team.

@Adrian, you could trade and draft to shape the Browns into a superbowl winning team, would that not be a bigger achievement than winning with the Patriots?

The point I was making the roster, in my opinion, doesn't make a huge difference. You said yourslf to me when Brees went down and I was uaing Smith at QB, you have to adapt to different play styles.

Dave told me about a guy in the real IG franchise who picks the Rams (not the greatest team) but because he is so good he wins and drafts well, makes good trades and keeps winning.

I just think a big deal is being made of a minor issue. How about we wait and see is there a fantasy draft in the new game. All this planning could be for nothing

adrian522

etloveslsd wrote: »

I have stated before that I would be happy to stay with the teams we are now (this was before the talk of no fantasy draft). I like my division, the guys are of a similar standard and there is banter and rivalry.

I think it would be better to mix up the divisions a bit.

etloveslsd wrote:

I know people want to play new people but the fixture bug should be fixed in the new game so the schedule should chance.

Has anybody asked how many people want to change teams? most of the guys who were there at the start took teams they liked, and other (like me) came along later and picked others and now have a soft spot for that team.

I don't think it would be fair for the best players on the site to have the best teams. The whole point of this is to give thee weaker players a bit of an advantage.

etloveslsd wrote:

@Adrian, you could trade and draft to shape the Browns into a superbowl winning team, would that not be a bigger achievement than winning with the Patriots?

Correct, it would be a great achievement but it would be much more difficult than starting with a better team. The main point is about trying to give people who are very good the teams that need the most work therefore balancing the whole league.

etloveslsd wrote:

The point I was making the roster, in my opinion, doesn't make a huge difference. You said yourslf to me when Brees went down and I was uaing Smith at QB, you have to adapt to different play styles.

I disagree, I think the roster makes a huge difference.

etloveslsd wrote:

Dave told me about a guy in the real IG franchise who picks the Rams (not the greatest team) but because he is so good he wins and drafts well, makes good trades and keeps winning.

Well that's kind of my point, the guys who are very good have enough advantages and should get the weaker teams and they will be pretty competitive anyway. If the guy above got the packers or the Patriots he would just clean up.

etloveslsd wrote:

I just think a big deal is being made of a minor issue. How about we wait and see is there a fantasy draft in the new game. All this planning could be for nothing

It could be but if we are using real teams I think we need to draft according to previous record, even if there is a fantasy draft I think we should change around the teams so we get to play different coaches.

For example I've been playing on this franchise since the very beginning but I don't think I have ever played Berty for example so I think a change of divisions would be nice.

Just my thoughts.

Danger_dave1

If there's no fantasy I'd go with something along the lines of what Bigbadrob has said. The good players shouldn't get the best team . Again in the Maddenpfl pro franchise (IG) yes one guy picks the rams and wins a fair bit. But two of the best players get the ravens and the patriots and playing them is insane,there so good they good be the broncos or the jaguars and win more than they lose ! I think Santry can agree on that.

The best players should be at the bottom of the totem pole. Since we're not full though , no player is going to be stuck with a bad team, just teams with some holes. Within two seasons any team should be able to challenge for the superbowl using a certain style on offense.

I like the idea of separating people who make the post season with there post season record as well . But we need to use some human vs human calculation for a seeding.

No one division should have 4 players. AFC NFC should split evenly and 3 in each division if possible. I personally a. Going to leave Buffalo in the new madden, I'd like to create new rivalries with other players.

Even if we still have a fantasy Franchise I'd prefer if we switched up the divisions.

BigBadRob83

Agree with pretty much all of what Adrian and Dave said.

Especially on switching up teams/divisions.
I haven't played any of the lads in NFC South or NFC North yet, and as much as I'm sure I'll get beaten by Santry and Raoul I would like to change it up

Paully D

Another option is to just do a random draw. Yes, the better players could get the better teams but chances are they'll win games regardless of who they get. I wouldn't mind being in another division to the one I'm in now.

Just an option anyway.

Berty44

That have actually said no Fantasy.

I think the ideal way would be to have a look at all the players records at the end of Season 3, total them all up and do a draft order with the person with the poorest record picking #1 and the best picking last ( v humans v human/cpu not matter too much, just get a draft order out of it ). I know Heli pointed out that teams changed ownership and that might skew it and make some difference but so be it, slight imperfection Someone might keep a track of records from M13 on !

You can see all game results for all seasons in myleaguemanager site (look under schedules by season and week ). Might take a little time for someone to tot them all up. Don't think it includes post seasons but regular seasons shoule be enough. Yes I do know what I am doing to myself here and I would absolutely love to keep the Jets but the more even the league the better long term.

Also you will have to take into consideration where to slot in any newcomers but I would be of the opinion that they should be biased towards the bottom of the picks as some recognition should be given to the coaches who have playd on through our 3 seasons long after many have shelved their maddens.

Also take into consideration a rule which would ensure you that divisions have even amount of human players ( as Dave says ) so you don't have one division with 4 humans and another with only 2.

Couple of things will happen, firstly everyone will be all mixed up, secondly the weakest players get the best teams ( or the teams they love - their choice ), the better players get the weakest teams. It cannot but be good for the league and would make for it being more even. They have done this for years in the PFL and its incredible how many teams end up with virtually the same records come season end.

Nelbert

Well I'm disgusted! Only joined this league a couple of weeks ago and I was really looking forward to taking the Patriots (my team, along with a soft spot for the Jags for no comprehensible reason!) and doing a fantasy draft!

Never done one in Madden before and was really looking forward to it! I hope this isn't true and fantasy drafts will be possible!

I only chose the Chiefs to balance the Conferences upon the commish request and have an outside chance of the playoffs through the wildcard (looks to have gone with loss to Falcons but will plug away and hope for some lucky results for me / unlucky for someone else!).

Have really enjoyed my two human vs human games and part of that was seeing who ended up with what players and secretly judging the persons drafting!
That and throwing the ball to opposition players has been a mainstay of my few weeks in the league!

SantryRed

More than likely it'll be a ranking system with worst record picking first. I'll discuss it proper with Raoul when I get back but please everyone keep offering what they think is best because I will definitely be looking at the suggestions in this thread.

ibmax

- 3 pools of 8 players (sounds like there'll be approx that many players)

- pool populated based on overall record, ie; best 8 players in pool a, next 8 in b, final 8 in pool c.

- players in pool ranked based on record.

- player with worst record in pool c chooses any team.

- next worst record in pool c chooses next team but the team cannot be in the same division as the player above's selection.

- this continues until each division is represented by a player from pool C

- repeat the process for players in pools B and A

- CPU will be the remaining team in each division

Net result should be competitive divisions across the board and strength of schedule should be similar too. The wildcard race should be very competitive.

if there are more than 24 players a pool D can be added. Pool D does not need 8 players for the above to work

QED

Danger_dave1

SantryRed wrote: »

More than likely it'll be a ranking system with worst record picking first. I'll discuss it proper with Raoul when I get back but please everyone keep offering what they think is best because I will definitely be looking at the suggestions in this thread.

It will be a vote I'd presume, considering it's all our league. Everyone should get a say in it.

SantryRed

You#re right Dave. It'll go to a vote. I'll be picking near the end regardless I'd say :pac:

matthew8

I think before we do a draft, everyone should post the team they want and if no one else wants them, let them have that team.

madalig12

matthew8 wrote: »

I think before we do a draft, everyone should post the team they want and if no one else wants them, let them have that team.

You are only saying that cos you want the Raiders.

matthew8

madalig12 wrote: »

You are only saying that cos you want the Raiders.

The real Raiders? They suck. I really like the offense, but the defense makes me want to puke.

madalig12

matthew8 wrote: »

madalig12 wrote: »

You are only saying that cos you want the Raiders.

The real Raiders? They suck. I really like the offense, but the defense makes me want to puke.

I think you would pick em anyway.

matthew8

madalig12 wrote: »

I think you would pick em anyway.

With Reggie McKenzie running the show? Not likely. The Raiders are no longer the badasses of the league. The only good owner left in the league is Jerry Jones.

BigBadRob83

ibmax wrote: »

- 3 pools of 8 players (sounds like there'll be approx that many players)

Interesting suggestion ibmax, well thought out.
I would suggest something similar but with slight tweeks (assuming 24 people as well).

- Pick in reverse order based on some agreed by league*
- People pick whoever they wanted, until a division has 3 human teams.
- The fourth team in the division then automatically becomes a CPU team and that division is full.
- Drafters left then pick from open divisions

Reason for this is that the best teams go to the worst players this way.

The way ibmax had it laid out, team 8 in the draft would be forced to pick one of 4 teams from a specific division (maybe the AFC West), instead of having a choice of the remaining 25 teams.
In this case you could argue that you would be much better off to be picking 9th/10th instead of 7th/8th, which I think would remove the main purpose of the draft to give the worst players the better teams.


*My idea would be Human v. Human record (any tie-breakers decided number of playoff games, failing that Season 3 overall record)
To make it easier to calculate, we could possibly use Human v. Human record from Season 3 only although it may be skewed a little from small sample size and the number of absences this season because of the summer and the Euros. Maybe Season 2 and 3 would be better.

SantryRed

I think calculating the human -v- human will be complicated to work out. That's my problem with that system. I also think CPU games should be included as if someone had it easy this madden then it should be more difficult next time around.

BigBadRob83

SantryRed wrote: »

I think calculating the human -v- human will be complicated to work out. That's my problem with that system. I also think CPU games should be included as if someone had it easy this madden then it should be more difficult next time around.

Yeah it might take a little time to work out, took me maybe 10/15 minutes to work mine out for the 3 seasons.
EDIT: If its the time that is an issue with this idea, as opposed to the actual idea itself, then I don't think that should be considered. I don't mind doing something up myself for all the human teams one slow day in work well before Madden 13. Everyone could have a quick review of their own record to ensure I hadn't missed anything. If people think it's worthwhile

While people who had lots of CPU games might have had it easier, don't think that should be held against them. Number of CPU/Human games is luck of the draw really.
I know I'd prefer to playing in the NFC East with 4 human teams than in AFC North with only 2 human teams and more CPU games.

BigBadRob83

Have been working on collating all the results from Season 2 & 3.
Progressing slowly, but hope to have it finished by the end of the week, as doing it a bit here and a bit there.

If nothing else, it should be interesting to see how we have been doing against each other, and against the CPU.

Danger_dave1

BigBadRob83 wrote: »

Have been working on collating all the results from Season 2 & 3.
Progressing slowly, but hope to have it finished by the end of the week, as doing it a bit here and a bit there.

If nothing else, it should be interesting to see how we have been doing against each other, and against the CPU.

Nice should be interesting to see who's behind Santry and Berty

BigBadRob83

Finally have gotten the results in from Seasons 2 & 3.
Season 3 is up to Week 10, as LM syncing is messed up and don't have access to EA site on this computer, so it is still to be updated even further.

Have gone through LM to get the results and the fixtures/results threads here and the old forum to see what games were Human-vs-Human, CPU, Simmed, etc.
If you notice any mistake, let me know and can correct as I will keep updating it.

So here we have the first POWER RANKINGS

BigBadRob83

And because I don't know any better, have also included the Overall Rankings

BigBadRob83

And when you take one from the other, you are left with
Rankings in CPU games (including simmed games)

helimachoptor

Super stuff Rob!

ibmax

Well done Rob. You must have the patience of a saint to have gone through all that!!!

without wanting to start a landslide of small adjustments, if I could correct my own results:

- I'm 4-1 vs humans
- I missed 3 games this year, 1 sim game (Human) and 2 (CPU + human) while on holidays. They resulted in 1 human win, 1 CPU win and 1 human loss.
- my CPU record is thus 2-0

what do i win ???

adrian522

Thanks Rob, Epic work !!!

helimachoptor

What would be great would be 3 seasons of Madden 13 with the same coaches and do what Rob has done at the end

BigBadRob83

ibmax wrote: »

without wanting to start a landslide of small adjustments, if I could correct my own results:

If you wanna let me know which weeks you were missing I'll update it

BigBadRob83

helimachoptor wrote: »

What would be great would be 3 seasons of Madden 13 with the same coaches and do what Rob has done at the end

If we keep track of it as we go will be much easier, shouldn't be a problem

adrian522

I think people need to have played a minimum number of games to be eligible for a high draft pick.

Otherwise I could leave the league, come back under a different name, play one game, lose and get the number 1 pick...mmm

Actually never mind, I've just had a marvellous idea.

BigBadRob83

adrian522 wrote: »

I think people need to have played a minimum number of games to be eligible for a high draft pick.

Otherwise I could leave the league, come back under a different name, play one game, lose and get the number 1 pick...mmm

Actually never mind, I've just had a marvellous idea.

Yeah would agree with that alright, should be some games played threshold for it, for whatever method we end up using

helimachoptor

Adrian.. thats a paddelin!

Nelbert

BigBadRob83 wrote: »

Yeah would agree with that alright, should be some games played threshold for it, for whatever method we end up using

What's a fair threshold though? For example I joined mid this season and I've lost both of my human vs human games (both quite close games in fairness) and have won my CPU games so far. I'm due to play the Raiders twice and the Chargers once (or possibly the reverse of that). If I win 2 out of 3 of those I've an outside chance of a sneaky wildcard spot.
I've no intention of intentionally losing games to secure a high pick for Madden 13 (getting to play-offs with Vince Young at QB would be a big achievement!), I like winning too much to bear losing now to increase my chances of winning next year or whatever.
My record at the end of season be a fair reflection and from the power rankings listed and what I hope my record will be and the impression I get of the level of play (from my two losses) a decent pick that would net me a good starting team (I'd still prefer a fantasy draft) would benefit me and make me more competitive next year, i.e. I'd have a better team to play against a player better than me with a worse team. Balance!

SantryRed

Anyone new from now should be picking after everyone else. I think it's fair enough as we come close to July and the end of our last season of Madden 12.

Nelbert

SantryRed wrote: »

Anyone new from now will be picking after everyone else. I think it's fair enough as we come close to July and the end of our last season of Madden 12.

So Nelbert1 and Nelbert2 can't join????

BigBadRob83

Something to be decided I suppose Nelbert, we still don't know what method we'll be using to select the teams for Madden 13.

Separately - once LM is fixed I will update the Power Rankings.
And make a slight change to the Overall and CPU Rankings, to remove games where it was simmed so it only takes into account games actually played by you.

Paully D

Fantastic stuff there Rob. Pleasantly surprised to see myself in the top 6!

helimachoptor

Paully D wrote: »

Fantastic stuff there Rob. Pleasantly surprised to see myself in the top 6!

Does that mean you're coming back paully????

Paully D

helimachoptor wrote: »

Does that mean you're coming back paully????

I'll definitely be back for Madden 13 mate, unfortunately I won't be back at all for Madden 12.