**Aerial photos & report of illegal turf cutting** MOD WARNING POST #40

joela

New Report just released from Friends of the Irish Environment which is supported by aerial photographs taken on the 29th May. The report while unsurprisingly depressing to read is not the most shocking thing by a long shot when you take a look at the photographs. The report can be accessed here and the photos here. Some of these bogs, 7 I think, received EU Life funding for restoration and they are being literally destroyed. The blatant abuse of the law is awful but the view of the wanton illegal destruction is shocking.

Traonach

:(:(
Unsurprising is correct. Unfortunately Minister Deenihan is a fool and he ain't going to stop the turfcutters vandalising the bogs.

joela

Awww Traonach he will, he has to because we transposed it into Irish law so it is Irish law being flouted. On top of that because it was EU Directive we are going to get hit in the pocket sooner or later which is unfair on the rest of us who actually behave within the law and care about the country.

LostCovey

Traonach wrote: »

Unfortunately Minister Deenihan is a fool

That's a bit severe, and untrue, in my opinion. He may well prove to be one of the better Ministers in that role.

I don't expect a rapid fix, but I think the Mingers will lose this one - might take another season or two. Once they tie breaches to the single farm payments it'll be game set & match in a lot of cases.

joela

Oh I think it will stop this year, it has to and if not I hope that they fine the Irish government and then we will see some action. Mingers are a joke

tornado778

joela wrote: »

Some of these bogs, 7 I think, received EU Life funding for restoration and they are being literally destroyed. The blatant abuse of the law is awful but the view of the wanton illegal destruction is shocking.

Thats also a bit severe, there was no problems with turf cutting in this country until we got involved with the now defunct EU, and on another point, why are Bord na Mona and Erin Peats allowed to continue cutting peat on an industrial scale with no consequences ?

I dont expect any leftie townies to understand the destruction that the "turf cutting ban " causes the ordinary people of Ireland, it has very little to do with farmers or any subsidy payments.

tornado778

Its a pity this government wouldn't spend the taxpayers hard earned money on the country's infrastructure rather than giving it to a bunch of unemployed "graduates" to fly around in helicopters / planes to take pictures and make reports on people doing what they have been doing for centuries.
Make them get proper jobs, like the rest of us have to do, and if they cant find one, emigrate .

Flora and Fauna my eye !!!

Traonach

tornado778 wrote: »

and on another point, why are Bord na Mona and Erin Peats allowed to continue cutting peat on an industrial scale with no consequences ?

I dont expect any leftie townies to understand the destruction that the "turf cutting ban " causes the ordinary people of Ireland, it has very little to do with farmers or any subsidy payments.

Bord na Móna and Erin Peats aren't cutting in SPA. Not defending Bord na Móna, they have destroyed vast tracts of Bogland. You always hear that excuse "Sure Bord Na Móna destroyed that bogs, why can't we ????"

Thats also a bit severe, there was no problems with turf cutting in this country until we got involved with the now defunct EU,

The problem was there it took the EU to try and bring the "Mingers" to heel.

Mickeroo

tornado778 wrote: »

Its a pity this government wouldn't spend the taxpayers hard earned money on the country's infrastructure rather than giving it to a bunch of unemployed "graduates" to fly around in helicopters / planes to take pictures and make reports on people doing what they have been doing for centuries.
Make them get proper jobs, like the rest of us have to do, and if they cant find one, emigrate .

Flora and Fauna my eye !!!

Just because something has been done for centuries doesn't make it ok.

tornado778

Traonach wrote: »

Bord na Móna and Erin Peats aren't cutting in SPA.

And why do you think that is ????:cool:

tornado778

Mickeroo wrote: »

Just because something has been done for centuries doesn't make it ok.

what is wrong with it in the first place was my point,,,which i taught i made clear.

Traonach

tornado778 wrote: »

And why do you think that is ????:cool:

Against the law.

tornado778

Traonach wrote: »

Bord na Móna and Erin Peats aren't cutting in SPA. Not defending Bord na Móna, they have destroyed vast tracts of Bogland. You always hear that excuse "Sure Bord Na Móna destroyed that bogs, why can't we ????"


The problem was there it took the EU to try and bring the "Mingers" to heel.

SPA are around long before Ming has been in politics, I recall a bog i worked on in the early 90's (its actually in the OP pictures) part of it was put under a protective order of somekind, i cant remember exactly what but it ended up in the courts for years,the only people that won anything were the barristers.

tornado778

Traonach wrote: »

Against the law.

No,,,,why do you think the bogs they cut are not SPA ??
Brown envelopes?

Mickeroo

tornado778 wrote: »

what is wrong with it in the first place was my point,,,which i taught i made clear.

You didn't make that clear, to me anyway. Whats wrong with it is that by cutting the bog you are destroying a unique habitat which is home to many plants and animals. Italso releases a lot of carbon into the atmosphere ( although I'd imagine in terms of global carbon emissions, the carbon from irish peat bogs is miniscule). SPAs and SACs are designated to protect valuable natural habitats like this, its people cutting turf within those areas thats seen as the problem.

tornado778

Mickeroo wrote: »

You didn't make that clear, to me anyway. Whats wrong with it is that by cutting the bog you are destroying a unique habitat which is home to many plants and animals. Italso releases a lot of carbon into the atmosphere ( although I'd imagine in terms of global carbon emissions, the carbon from irish peat bogs is miniscule). SPAs and SACs are designated to protect valuable natural habitats like this, its people cutting turf within those areas thats seen as the problem.

statements like this from people that have never set foot on a bog is what the problem is,, if you had, you would know this is simply not true, you have been brainwashed by the eurocrats i suspect JK.

Just because a few student biologists or whatever come on a field trip to a bog one day over from Brussels, take some measurements and come to that conclusion,doesnt make it gospel, should we stop all Farming, forestry's , or any other cultivation of the land as it is essentially the same thing ?:rolleyes:

Birdnuts

tornado778 wrote: »

statements like this from people that have never set foot on a bog is what the problem is,, if you had, you would know this is simply not true, you have been brainwashed by the eurocrats i suspect JK.

Just because a few student biologists or whatever come on a field trip to a bog one day over from Brussels, take some measurements and come to that conclusion,doesnt make it gospel, should we stop all Farming, forestry's , or any other cultivation of the land as it is essentially the same thing ?:rolleyes:

I am as big a critic of the EU in many areas as anybody else, including many aspects of the CAP,Marine Fisheries etc. - but over the years they have pumped alot of money into irish farming via REPS,DAS etc. and without such support many small farmers would have gone to the wall. I say that as someone with an interest in a small farm in North Mayo which frankly is barely viable as it is. Its also true to say that without legislation coming from Brussels we would have lost even more habitats like ancient woodland, Limestone payments, Turloughts, Machair Grassland, Game fisheries etc. then we have up till now.

Mickeroo

tornado778 wrote: »

statements like this from people that have never set foot on a bog is what the problem is,, if you had, you would know this is simply not true, you have been brainwashed by the eurocrats i suspect JK.

Nice generalisation but I've been working on bogs since I was able to lift a sod. Its the closest thing to wilderness left in this country, I don't need the eurocrats to tell me that. And before you call me a hypocrite I have no problem with small scale turf cutting outside of protected areas, but a protected area should be just that.

tornado778 wrote: »

Just because a few student biologists or whatever come on a field trip to a bog one day over from Brussels, take some measurements and come to that conclusion,doesnt make it gospel, should we stop all Farming, forestry's , or any other cultivation of the land as it is essentially the same thing ?:rolleyes:

Cutting turf isn't cultivating the land its removing the land. Forestry is planting trees and cutting them down when they mature, cutting down natural forests should indeed be stopped as should any over intensive or harmful farming practices.

tornado778

Mickeroo wrote: »

Nice generalisation but I've been working on bogs since I was able to lift a sod. Its the closest thing to wilderness left in this country, I don't need the eurocrats to tell me that. And before you call me a hypocrite I have no problem with small scale turf cutting outside of protected areas, but a protected area should be just that.



Cutting turf isn't cultivating the land its removing the land. Forestry is planting trees and cutting them down when they mature, cutting down natural forests should indeed be stopped as should any over intensive or harmful farming practices.

Small scale cutting of turf even on these newly protected area's causes minimum damage compare to "farming" where poisons are regularly used, Rabbits,Hares,Badgers etc are decimated on a yearly basis but apparently this farming lark causes no damage to the natural habitat or our water basins,

Forestry is cutting down a natural habitat for many of our wildlife, and then re-sowing it.where it takes decades for it to grow back,speaks for itself really

Turf cutting is removing the land, as i know, ive been cutting turf for decades, why don't we stay cutting it until people get the chance to find an alternative is all i ask, (and don't say there's always oil),,the bogs, like the forest, will grow back if managed properly within ten years nobody would ever know a machine was on most of them.I have already noticed this with some bogs i have worked on that have been cut with machinery (heavily) for the last forthy years.So what harm will ten/twenty/thirty more years do, very little.If managed by the people that know, not Brussels .

tornado778

Birdnuts wrote: »

I am as big a critic of the EU in many areas as anybody else, including many aspects of the CAP etc. - but over the years they have pumped alot of money into irish farming via REPS,DAS etc. and without such support many small farmers would have gone to the wall. I say that as someone with an interest in a small farm in North Mayo which frankly is barely viable as it is. Its also true to say that without legislation coming from Brussels we would have lost even more habitats like ancient woodland, Limestone payments, Turloughts, Machair Grassland, Game fisheries etc. then we have up till now.

thats great for farmers, the poor farmers :rolleyes:
If only the turf cutters got half as many subsides to do nothing, we wouldn't have a problem.We could afford to pay our bills , and install oil boilers and buy oil.
the EU is pumping alot of money out of the country now, Where was the legislation from Europe when we were ploughing a road through the Hill of Tara for example, i could go on for hours with similar examples, but im sure you catch my drift.

Mickeroo

tornado778 wrote: »

Small scale cutting of turf even on these newly protected area's causes minimum damage compare to "farming" where poisons are regularly used, Rabbits,Hares,Badgers etc are decimated on a yearly basis but apparently this farming lark causes no damage to the natural habitat or our water basins,

Forestry is cutting down a natural habitat for many of our wildlife, and then re-sowing it.where it takes decades for it to grow back,speaks for itself really

As I said harmful farming practices should be cut out completely.

As for forestry, I also said we shouldn't be cutting down natural forests so I agree with you on that. The planted coniferous Coillte forests are essentially deserts, nothing lives or grows in those due to how close the trees are together.

tornado778 wrote: »

Turf cutting is removing the land, as i know, ive been cutting turf for decades, why don't we stay cutting it until people get the chance to find an alternative is all i ask, (and don't say there's always oil),,the bogs, like the forest, will grow back if managed properly within ten years nobody would ever know a machine was on most of them.I have already noticed this with some bogs i have worked on that have been cut with machinery (heavily) for the last forthy years.So what harm will ten/twenty/thirty more years do, very little.If managed by the people that know, not Brussels .

It took 5000 years for the bogs to "grow".

tornado778

joela wrote: »

New Report just released from Friends of the Irish Environment which is supported by aerial photographs taken on the 29th May. The report while unsurprisingly depressing to read is not the most shocking thing by a long shot when you take a look at the photographs. The report can be accessed here and the photos here. Some of these bogs, 7 I think, received EU Life funding for restoration and they are being literally destroyed. The blatant abuse of the law is awful but the view of the wanton illegal destruction is shocking.

just to add, after viewing the pictures , on they monivea bog in Galway,, the statement "a huge amount of cutting here" is misleading, now i don't know who took the pics and who made that statement, but i can tell that there is hardly 250 tonne of turf cut there.Hardly earth shattering, and alarmist comments like that are going to get the Friends of the Irish Environment nowhere with the turf cutters.

joela

Tornado you have posted so much incorrect information it is hard to believe and proves the point that some people just won't face facts.

The bogs in question are SAC, designated for their priority Annex I habitat which basically means there isn't a lot of it left and it is damned important. Fact: Turf cutting is the single most damaging activity as evidenced by vast bodies of scientific work and supported by the pictures linked in my OP.
Fact: The aerial photos were commissioned by an eNGO who paid for them, nothing to do with taxpayers or unemployed graduates or whatever else you claimed.
Fact: There has been approximately 14years for the turf cutters to look at alternatives which are out there alright and well you know. Wood & coppicing schemes being a very sustainable and achievable alternative. Retrofitting homes was also mooted by eNGOs. The greedy black marketeers & contractors wouldn't have it though. Sure how else would they make their undeclared few pound?
Fact: The science has proved beyond doubt that draining & cutting the bog kills it. When bogs are in favourable condition they grow approximately 1mm a year, so they aren't doing much growing now are they? In other words turf cutting is not sustainable.
FACT: BnM & other industrial operations are running out of time & bog, their day is drawing close too. The key difference in this situation is that they are not cutting Natura 2000 (SAC) sites so do not come under this legislation. Just because they did it doesn't mean everyone else should do so, surely you heard that as a kid or would you jump off a bridge if Ming said so?
FACT: Bogs have social, economic & environmental values which are far more important than cheap polluting fuel. A report called BOGLANDS was published last year by UCD for the EPA and you really should read at least some of it to see exactly what I mean http://erc.epa.ie/safer/iso19115/displayISO19115.jsp?isoID=236

Oh and it is wanton, most definitely illegal and absolute destruction. Disgraceful that a small number of people are allowed to behave like this especially when you consider the cost to the country as a whole as a result.

joela

Mickeroo wrote: »

As I said harmful farming practices should be cut out completely.

As for forestry, I also said we shouldn't be cutting down natural forests so I agree with you on that. The planted coniferous Coillte forests are essentially deserts, nothing lives or grows in those due to how close the trees are together.



It took 5000 years for the bogs to "grow".

10,000 actually in some places...1mm per year at most and then only when conditions are favourable :eek:

tornado778

Mickeroo wrote: »

As I said harmful farming practices should be cut out completely.

As for forestry, I also said we shouldn't be cutting down natural forests so I agree with you on that. The planted coniferous Coillte forests are essentially deserts, nothing lives or grows in those due to how close the trees are together.



It took 5000 years for the bogs to "grow".

oh i am well aware of that Micky.. but i said if managed right , the bogs would be like nothing ever drove on them,,,first off, blocking the main drain will raise the cut away areas drastically within months,,plants and life would then flourish.



Peat is a soil that is made up of the partially decomposed remains of dead plants which have accumulated on top of each other in waterlogged places for thousands of years. Areas where peat accumulates are called peatlands. Peat is brownish-black in colour and in its natural state is composed of 90% water and 10% solid material. It consists of Sphagnum moss along with the roots, leaves, flowers and seeds of heathers, grasses and sedges. Occasionally the trunks and roots of trees such as Scots pine, oak, birch and yew are also present in the peat.

(Copied & pasted from some of my files)

joela

tornado778 wrote: »

just to add, after viewing the pictures , on they monivea bog in Galway,, the statement "a huge amount of cutting here" is misleading, now i don't know who took the pics and who made that statement, but i can tell that there is hardly 250 tonne of turf cut there.Hardly earth shattering, and alarmist comments like that are going to get the Friends of the Irish Environment nowhere with the turf cutters.

Not misleading at all, 250 tonne of turf on a protected bog is a bloody disgrace particularly when it is ILLEGAL to cut anything! Not at all alarmist, truthful unlike the thuggish turf cutters who have been threatening and intimidating the NPWS rangers and refusing to allow them on the sites to do their job. It is criminal damage and I for one as an Irish citizen am sick of this story dragging on and on. Proseute them, cut off their grants and give them no compo at all. You'd be jumping up an down if anyone else broke the law so blatantly. Hypocrisy at its best :mad:

joela

Well if you were copying and pasting from the right spots you would know that it ain't as simple as that and they most certainly just grow back the way you describe.

God you really are ill informed:rolleyes:

tornado778 wrote: »

oh i am well aware of that Micky.. but i said if managed right , the bogs would be like nothing ever drove on them,,,first off, blocking the main drain will raise the cut away areas drastically within months,,plants and life would then flourish.



Peat is a soil that is made up of the partially decomposed remains of dead plants which have accumulated on top of each other in waterlogged places for thousands of years. Areas where peat accumulates are called peatlands. Peat is brownish-black in colour and in its natural state is composed of 90% water and 10% solid material. It consists of Sphagnum moss along with the roots, leaves, flowers and seeds of heathers, grasses and sedges. Occasionally the trunks and roots of trees such as Scots pine, oak, birch and yew are also present in the peat.

(Copied & pasted from some of my files)

John_Rambo

tornado778 wrote: »

the bogs, like the forest, will grow back if managed properly within ten years nobody would ever know a machine was on most of them

Shocking how little people know about their own surroundings and environment. I am from Dublin city and I know more about bogs than Tornado778 does.

Birdnuts

tornado778 wrote: »

Small scale cutting of turf even on these newly protected area's causes minimum damage compare to "farming" where poisons are regularly used, Rabbits,Hares,Badgers etc are decimated on a yearly basis but apparently this farming lark causes no damage to the natural habitat or our water basins,

.

With repect Tornado you could point out the worst from any group of people when it comes to environmental damage and law-breaking etc. - I think the majority of farmers play by the rules and avoid damaging wildlife and their habitats. The few rotten apples will allways tarnish the image of the decent majority no matter what walk of life you want to talk about, but thats just the way things are


Getting back to the subject at hand, I have some sympathy for the remaining bog owners who for whatever reason have not signed up to or are unaware of the compensation packages availiable. I beleive there fears about their future heating needs could be easily overcome if the government simply guaranteed them an indivdual supply of turf for life, which is more or less what the other affected bog owners have signed up for. This would I beleive solve the problem more or less overnight and be alot cheaper for all concerned compared to the current mess we're in. I have alot less sympathy for the operators/owners of those giant sausage machines who I beleive are indeed stirring things up for their own benefit and couldn't care less about the bogs or their owners.

tornado778

John_Rambo wrote: »

Shocking how little people know about their own surroundings and environment. I am from Dublin city and I know more about bogs than Tornado778 does.

you are clearly taking my comments out of context,, please dont

John_Rambo

tornado778 wrote: »

you are clearly taking my comments out of context,, please dont

I'm not. If you think a machine cut bog will rejuvenate within ten years you clearly haven't a bulls notion what you are talking about.

tornado778

Birdnuts wrote: »

With repect Tornado you could point out the worst from any group of people when it comes to environmental damage and law-breaking etc. - I think the majority of farmers play by the rules and avoid damaging wildlife and their habitats. The few rotten apples will allways tarnish the image of the decent majority no matter what walk of life you want to talk about, but thats just the way things are


Getting back to the subject at hand, I have some sympathy for the remaining bog owners who for whatever reason have not signed up to or are unaware of the compensation packages availiable. I beleive there fears about their future heating needs could be easily overcome if the government simply guaranteed them an indivdual supply of turf for life, which is more or less what the other affected bog owners have signed up for. This would I beleive solve the problem more or less overnight and be alot cheaper for all concerned compared to the current mess we're in. I have alot less sympathy for the operators/owners of those giant sausage machines who I beleive are indeed stirring things up for their own benefit and couldn't care less about the bogs or their owners.

Full respect to your post except that one part, that is incorrect, nobody has been promised turf for life, and the alternative of E1500 a year offered is for the first five years, then to be "reviewed",

tornado778

John_Rambo wrote: »

I'm not. If you think a machine cut bog will rejuvenate within ten years you clearly haven't a bulls notion what you are talking about.

i implied the would start to rejuvenate ,, you clearly cant read:rolleyes:

tornado778

joela wrote: »

Tornado you have posted so much incorrect information it is hard to believe and proves the point that some people just won't face facts.

The bogs in question are SAC, designated for their priority Annex I habitat which basically means there isn't a lot of it left and it is damned important. Fact: Turf cutting is the single most damaging activity as evidenced by vast bodies of scientific work and supported by the pictures linked in my OP.
Fact: The aerial photos were commissioned by an eNGO who paid for them, nothing to do with taxpayers or unemployed graduates or whatever else you claimed.
Fact: There has been approximately 14years for the turf cutters to look at alternatives which are out there alright and well you know. Wood & coppicing schemes being a very sustainable and achievable alternative. Retrofitting homes was also mooted by eNGOs. The greedy black marketeers & contractors wouldn't have it though. Sure how else would they make their undeclared few pound?
Fact: The science has proved beyond doubt that draining & cutting the bog kills it. When bogs are in favourable condition they grow approximately 1mm a year, so they aren't doing much growing now are they? In other words turf cutting is not sustainable.
FACT: BnM & other industrial operations are running out of time & bog, their day is drawing close too. The key difference in this situation is that they are not cutting Natura 2000 (SAC) sites so do not come under this legislation. Just because they did it doesn't mean everyone else should do so, surely you heard that as a kid or would you jump off a bridge if Ming said so?
FACT: Bogs have social, economic & environmental values which are far more important than cheap polluting fuel. A report called BOGLANDS was published last year by UCD for the EPA and you really should read at least some of it to see exactly what I mean http://erc.epa.ie/safer/iso19115/displayISO19115.jsp?isoID=236

Oh and it is wanton, most definitely illegal and absolute destruction. Disgraceful that a small number of people are allowed to behave like this especially when you consider the cost to the country as a whole as a result.

The second line of your post is untrue,,, you talk about Facts??? ,,
Redwood bog is 1100 acres in area, turf cutters and locals use to cut approx 170 acres of it. your post is invalid, and before you resort to bombarding us with more reports from Europe you should check the "facts" on the ground.

Why should the turf cutters look for alternative employment and home heating, because some bureaucrat said so? ? the farmers didn't have to?
yes we have had 14 years, 14 years of red tape and indecision, are you a turf cutter, have you tried to get compensation?

i have already given my view on your fourth and fifth "facts", Which again i agree with, except for your point that they (BnM) will be stopped soon

Fact six, i will read it , looking forward to reading another report on something my family have been doing for a hundred years.


Oh and it is wanton, most definitely illegal and absolute destruction. Disgraceful that a small number of people are allowed to behave like this especially when you consider the cost to the country as a whole as a result
a bit over dramatic don't you think?

Birdnuts

tornado778 wrote: »

Full respect to your post except that one part, that is incorrect, nobody has been promised turf for life, and the alternative of E1500 a year offered is for the first five years, then to be "reviewed",

I'll have to have another look into the exact details of the compo package as I think it mentioned something about "alternative bogs" etc. I appreciate that many who signed up for it(I know one or two) weren't cutting their plots anyways - in any case I think we can agree that simply guaranteeing the future turf/fuel supply of remaining owners would put the issue to bed once and for all for a reasonable price tag.

tornado778

joela wrote: »

Not misleading at all, 250 tonne of turf on a protected bog is a bloody disgrace particularly when it is ILLEGAL to cut anything! Not at all alarmist, truthful unlike the thuggish turf cutters who have been threatening and intimidating the NPWS rangers and refusing to allow them on the sites to do their job. It is criminal damage and I for one as an Irish citizen am sick of this story dragging on and on. Proseute them, cut off their grants and give them no compo at all. You'd be jumping up an down if anyone else broke the law so blatantly. Hypocrisy at its best :mad:

thuggish turf cutters ha ha you're some drama queen

what grants do i a turf-cutter get???

and farmers have every right to refuse anyone onto their land,
I cant speak for everyone but i personally was very helpful to the rangers as they are local guys and friends and i agree are just doing a job,at least they are on the ground talking to people and not in an office looking at aerial photos making reports.
so i am far from a hypocrite.

If all this "criminal" damage upsets you so much, close the laptop and do something about it. like us thugs :D

John_Rambo

tornado778 wrote: »

i implied the would start to rejuvenate

I'm not talking about what you think you implied. I'm talking about what you typed out on this thread.

tornado778 wrote: »

the bogs, like the forest, will grow back if managed properly within ten years nobody would ever know a machine was on most of them

Bogs won't "grow back" in ten years. Scrub, gorse and other foliage will grow and disguise damage, but believe me, the damage is done and won't be repaired in a hurry.

Traonach

tornado778 wrote: »

i implied the would start to rejuvenate ,, you clearly cant read:rolleyes:

No you didn't:

the bogs, like the forest, will grow back if managed properly within ten years nobody would ever know a machine was on most of them.I have already noticed this with some bogs i have worked on that have been cut with machinery (heavily) for the last forthy years.So what harm will ten/twenty/thirty more years do, very little

joela

Tornado, please stop shooting yourself in the foot over and over.

There is not much of the habitat left and that is an absolute fact which is why it has been identified as not only an Annex I habitat but a Priority habitat. Just because you use only part of a large site doesn't mean that you can go on cutting it when in national terms it represents a declining habitat.

BnM are already moving into other sectors and will indeed stop cutting peat in the near future.

tornado778 wrote: »

The second line of your post is untrue,,, you talk about Facts??? ,,
Redwood bog is 1100 acres in area, turf cutters and locals use to cut approx 170 acres of it. your post is invalid, and before you resort to bombarding us with more reports from Europe you should check the "facts" on the ground.

Why should the turf cutters look for alternative employment and home heating, because some bureaucrat said so? ? the farmers didn't have to?
yes we have had 14 years, 14 years of red tape and indecision, are you a turf cutter, have you tried to get compensation?

i have already given my view on your fourth and fifth "facts", Which again i agree with, except for your point that they (BnM) will be stopped soon

Irish law says you must stop cutting, check out the constitution and it talks of Common Good. In other countries designation of sites does not mean compensation but people are expected to get on with it for the common good. The farmers have to adhere to certain guidelines too and some of it involves stopping or changing activities and I know because I grew up farming and saw the changes.

14years where you assumed you could just keep doing it, if the TCCA were any bloody good they would have worked to help find alternatives. Life changes, we all have to adapt to changes and so do turf cutters especially since they have had more than ample time to adapt.

Fact six, i will read it , looking forward to reading another report on something my family have been doing for a hundred years.

The report is good, it consulted stakeholders, looked at views on what peatlands meant but ultimately turf cutting has to stop for economic and environmental reasons. this isn't just some mad witch hunt, there are facts behind it.


Oh and it is wanton, most definitely illegal and absolute destruction. Disgraceful that a small number of people are allowed to behave like this especially when you consider the cost to the country as a whole as a result
a bit over dramatic don't you think? No I don't think it is at all, it is destroying a habitat illegally for the benefit of a very small number of people. These habitats are of value globally as carbon sinks, nationally as natural flood defences, water filters and biodiversity.

Kess73

MOD WARNING


Keep it civil and keep it factual. I appreciate that it is an emotive topic, but that is no excuse for things not to stay civil.

If people disagree, then attack the post and not the poster. If anyone wants to make personal comments of a disparaging nature from this post onwards, then they will get a holiday from the forum.

OpenYourEyes

tornado778 wrote: »

except for your point that they (BnM) will be stopped soon

To the best of my knowledge, BnM are currently cutting or have at least partly drained the last tracts of land they will be allowed/able to cut on

OpenYourEyes

tornado778 wrote: »

oh i am well aware of that Micky.. but i said if managed right , the bogs would be like nothing ever drove on them,,,first off, blocking the main drain will raise the cut away areas drastically within months,,plants and life would then flourish.

If managed right they might look like natural bog, but appearances can be deceiving! Efforts where drains are blocked and the area managed are an attempt to restore bog as best as can be done, but they're still far inferior to actual intact bog

joela

Actually I want to apologise to Tornado as I was harsh on him and he is only a single indivdual who is not responsible for this mess. I guess I personally have gone past the point of having much sympathy for the turf cutters as a whole mainly because the ones who are in the news are those who have been intimidating NPWS rangers and cutting illegally.

Tornado, I am sorry that you feel the ban is unfair but to be fair it is a very small number of bogs in the Irish context and the bogs are important for a huge variety of reasons as previously mentioned. Things may be traditions but that doesn't mean that it is right they continue when they are causing environmental damage. The tradition in turf cutting is largely social now since the advent of the machines & the decline of hand cutting. The 14 years has been more than enough time to adapt but unfortunately the governments never clearly gave the message that the ban would happen as they and TCCA assumed the horse trading could go on forever. So while I do appreciate your point of view and understand you have a different attitude I cannot agree or sympathise with those individuals who chose to break the law, threaten NPWS officials and continue to destroy the small area of protected peatlands we have.

Uriel.

tornado778 wrote: »

Full respect to your post except that one part, that is incorrect, nobody has been promised turf for life, and the alternative of E1500 a year offered is for the first five years, then to be "reviewed",

Wrong. Check out the NPWS website for what is being offered

Uriel.

tornado778 wrote: »

thuggish turf cutters ha ha you're some drama queen

what grants do i a turf-cutter get???

and farmers have every right to refuse anyone onto their land,
I cant speak for everyone but i personally was very helpful to the rangers as they are local guys and friends and i agree are just doing a job,at least they are on the ground talking to people and not in an office looking at aerial photos making reports.
so i am far from a hypocrite.

If all this "criminal" damage upsets you so much, close the laptop and do something about it. like us thugs :D

Rangers are allowed, by LAW, to enter land where a damaging activity is taking place, so farmers don't have EVERY right to refuse entry to their land.

ZX7R

This might sound stuped and wrong,but was it not our ancestors who created the bogs in the first place by cuting down our native forests, would this not make the bogs a man made habitat and not natural made habitat, so if you are cutting turf you are realy only destroying ,a man made habitat and also if it man made should it be protected at all

Mickeroo

ZX7R wrote: »

This might sound stuped and wrong,but was it not our ancestors who created the bogs in the first place by cuting down our native forests, would this not make the bogs a man made habitat and not natural made habitat, so if you are cutting turf you are realy only destroying ,a man made habitat and also if it man made should it be protected at all

You are right that the bogs were a result of deforestation (and a change in climate if I'm not mistaken). The limestone pavement in the burren, probably the most biodiverse habitat in the country, was also brought about by farming. Should that be bulldozed away or allowed to be covered over with scrub killing all the rare plants? Ireland is a cultural landscape not a natural one and has been for a very long time.

The fact of the matter is, you judge the habitat by its current value, not what it used to be 5 or 10 thousand years ago. It doesn't matter how they were made, they're there now and should be protected.

Birdnuts

ZX7R wrote: »

This might sound stuped and wrong,but was it not our ancestors who created the bogs in the first place by cuting down our native forests, would this not make the bogs a man made habitat and not natural made habitat, so if you are cutting turf you are realy only destroying ,a man made habitat and also if it man made should it be protected at all

AFAIK that is true of blanket bogs on mountains and near the West coast - but not the raised bogs of the midlands that were formed over thousands of years by the decomposition of plant remains in lakes left behind after the last ice age.

IrishHomer

Folks heads up its going to be discussed on tonights Primetime, RTE

Mickeroo

Like our government can afford unmanned aerial drones anytime soon

Run_to_da_hills

MOD EDIT: This is the Nature & Bird Watching forum. If you want to discuss the possibility of the government using unmanned aerial drones to spy on people at some point in the future, then there are forums on Boards for you to have that discussion.