Who Were The Celts?

slowburner

Thanks to both linguists for simplifying the material.

When you think about narrow definitions of archaeology as a science such as:

"a systematic study of past human life and culture
by the recovery and examination of remaining material evidence..."
(from here)

Linguistics/Etymology would not fall within that remit, since it does not recover physical evidence.
I can't see it as being anything other than a valid tool, especially when evidence for the existence of a culture in a particular place can be deduced from the persistence of linguistic characteristics.



An aside.
I find the 'r' (as in iolair) at the end of Galway Irish intriguing - it sounds a little Scandinavian to my ear. It's not quite a rolled 'r', more of a whistling sound.

Enkidu

slowburner wrote: »

An aside.
I find the 'r' (as in iolair) at the end of Galway Irish intriguing - it sounds a little Scandinavian to my ear. It's not quite a rolled 'r', more of a whistling sound.

It's technical name is a "palatalised alveolar frictive", less technically it's a Spanish tapped R with a bit of a Z quality to it.

In fact in Galway Irish, broad R is the Spanish tapped R and slender R is this Z-ish R sound. The difference is very important as most words that end in R distinguish their plural this way:

leabhar = book (tapped R)
leabhair = books (Z-ish R)

The difference exists in all dialects, but it's the most exaggerated in Galway. In Munster a native English speaker can hardly hear the difference between the two R's (although native Irish speakers can).

I should mention that this distinction exists for every consonant (broad/slender) and distinguishes singulars and plurals. One of the major things Brianó Broin found in his study is that people from Gaelscoileanna rarely make this distinction (using a single English sound) which is one of the major reasons native speakers find them difficult to understand.

dubhthach

newmug wrote: »

Which one is the "ay" pronounciation? I live in South Meath, and there is a distinct difference in accent / linguistics with our north Meath counterparts. The north have an accent like Hector, I have an accent more like Christy Moore (I mean in english aswell as Irish). I would definately have the "ay" pronounciation, as in ocht, NAY, deich, cup of tay, waynlings as opposed to weanlings (weenlings)

Ay = é or the ae in tae (cup of tay). Regarding Meath, I could be wrong on this but I recall reading that North Meath is basically a transition zone into South-Ulster accent (Monaghan/Cavan) as a result it shares features with these counties.

There's also the fact that the Irish language survived alot longer in Northern Meath and into areas of Monaghan/Louth/East Cavan. (Oriallia -- Oriel)

dubhthach

slowburner wrote: »

Thanks to both linguists for simplifying the material.

When you think about narrow definitions of archaeology as a science such as:

"a systematic study of past human life and culture
by the recovery and examination of remaining material evidence..."
(from here)

Linguistics/Etymology would not fall within that remit, since it does not recover physical evidence.
I can't see it as being anything other than a valid tool, especially when evidence for the existence of a culture in a particular place can be deduced from the persistence of linguistic characteristics.



An aside.
I find the 'r' (as in iolair) at the end of Galway Irish intriguing - it sounds a little Scandinavian to my ear. It's not quite a rolled 'r', more of a whistling sound.

Linguist would be an exaggeration (I work in IT!), I find it interesting though particulary with regards to history. In general I like taking an all-round view of things. Often the issue with approaching a "problem" from a single direction is you can miss the bigger picture. To give an example of where linguistics complements history would be to look at North Mayo.

The irish dialect of North Mayo (Sadly nearing extinction) is unusual in that it's intermediate between Connacht and Ulster (Donegal) Irish. We know from written history that there was a mass migration from Ulster into Northern Connacht / Mayo during 17th century (aftermath of plantations). The linguistic evidence backs this up. Of course if there were no written records and we were looking at just 17th century archaelogy we wouldn't see it as both areas basically had the same "material culture".

Another example would be looking at burial practices from the 3-4th century AD (pagan -- pre-christian) and comparing them to burial practices from 6-7th century. One would notice a disconnect surely? (or so I assume) However both era's belong to the same linguistic cultural grouping -- with obvious changes in religious practices etc.

Enkidu

dubhthach wrote: »

One thing I also find interesting about the whole Leath Cuinn vs. Leath Mogha idea is that it also appears to correlate to some major boundaries in the Irish language. For example the below:

The division in the first picture (the stress system) is due to the Normans. Munster Irish has the stress system of Nourmaund (The Norman Language). It's thought that the incoming Norman settlers found the Irish stress system too difficult (even though the Irish system is objectively simpler).

Enkidu

dubhthach wrote: »

The irish dialect of North Mayo (Sadly nearing extinction) is unusual in that it's intermediate between Connacht and Ulster (Donegal) Irish. We know from written history that there was a mass migration from Ulster into Northern Connacht / Mayo during 17th century (aftermath of plantations). The linguistic evidence backs this up. Of course if there were no written records and we were looking at just 17th century archaelogy we wouldn't see it as both areas basically had the same "material culture".

If you read books in Irish from Erris or Belmullet (such as Pádhraic Mháire Bhán, if you can get your hands on it, or "Le Gradam is le Spraoi"), you will see speakers use both the Ulster and Connacht systems of grammar. For example I've seen:
sa gcuinneoig (in the churn, Connacht)
sa chuinneoig (in the churn, Ulster)
in the same paragraph.

(-eoig rather than -eog as Mayo preserves the dative for feminine nouns.)

newmug

dubhthach wrote: »

Ay = é or the ae in tae (cup of tay). Regarding Meath, I could be wrong on this but I recall reading that North Meath is basically a transition zone into South-Ulster accent (Monaghan/Cavan) as a result it shares features with these counties.

There's also the fact that the Irish language survived alot longer in Northern Meath and into areas of Monaghan/Louth/East Cavan. (Oriallia -- Oriel)

You're dead right. Its like a different country in ways! From Navan northwards, its an Ulster accent to my ear. Trim (9 miles away) has the South Meath / Kildare / Westmeath / Longford type accent, Navan, Kells Oldcastle etc. has that distinct vowel-bending sound. eg. "Now" being pronounced as "Neu" in Navan, and "Noi" in Belfast. I also notice a lot of Scottish sounding words and phrases for things in Navan, I cant just think of any off hand, but I've definately noticed it before.

bolgios

The Celts migrated into Asia-Minor in 278 BC and founded a state in present day Turkey called Galatia, (the Galatians from the bible):

http://balkancelts.wordpress.com/2012/06/10/galatia/


It is interesting to note that many Celtic words subsequently passed into the modern Turkish language, and even today many modern Irish and Turkish words are cognate because of their common Celtic roots. There is a list here:


http://www.galloturca.com/galatians_files/galatianwords.htm

slowburner

Interesting list - what do you think it tells us?

Rubecula

Fascinating, it shows how language endures in differing places. It also indicates language drift over time.

bolgios

Personally I find it fascinating to see links between the Irish and Turks, two cultures which one would think had nothing in common. It really is a small world !!!

I think it illustrates a few things:
How each ethnic group that lives in an area contributes to the ethnogenesis of the modern population. It also shows that by analysing modern languages we can reveal much about the cultural groups which contributed to them.

Perhaps our Gaeilge experts could comment on the accuracy of the Irish vocabulary given in the Turkish study?

mathepac

Lads & Ladies, thanks a million for all the wonderful posts, but my head was so wrecked that a couple of weeks ago I borrowed Philip's "Atlas of the Celts", referred to from here on as "my book" from the local library to try and pound some basic stuff into my thick skull.

My book shows the "Celts" (as a group of peoples / tribes) distributed from Anatolia (modern Turkey) in the East, across the Black Sea to the Balkans through modern Austria, Germany and France and down into the Iberian peninsula and onwards to Great Britain and Ireland in the West. So far so good with the posts above I think.

But my book identifies the Irish languages (ancient, middle & modern, Scots Gaelic and Manx) as Indo-European giving the following evolution:

• Indo-Hittite
  • NW Indo-European
    • Baltic
    • Slavic
    • Thracian
    • Albanian
    • Cimmerian
    • Pre-Hellenic
    • Germanic
    • Tocharian
    • Illyrian
    • Messapic
    • Phrygian
    • Italic
      
    • Celtic
      • Old Irish - Middle Irish - Scots Gaelic, Manx, Irish
      • British Celtic - Welsh, Cornish, Breton, Cumbrian, Gaulish
      • Lepontic
      • Celtiberian

This would seem to contradict information in the thread, or am I still failing to grasp some basic fact?

Thanks again.

bolgios

mathepac wrote: »

Lads & Ladies, thanks a million for all the wonderful posts, but my head was so wrecked that a couple of weeks ago I borrowed Philip's "Atlas of the Celts", referred to from here on as "my book" from the local library to try and pound some basic stuff into my thick skull.

My book shows the "Celts" (as a group of peoples / tribes) distributed from Anatolia (modern Turkey) in the East, across the Black Sea to the Balkans through modern Austria, Germany and France and down into the Iberian peninsula and onwards to Great Britain and Ireland in the West. So far so good with the posts above I think.

But my book identifies the Irish languages (ancient, middle & modern, Scots Gaelic and Manx) as Indo-European giving the following evolution:

• Indo-Hittite
  • NW Indo-European
    • Baltic
    • Slavic
    • Thracian
    • Albanian
    • Cimmerian
    • Pre-Hellenic
    • Germanic
    • Tocharian
    • Illyrian
    • Messapic
    • Phrygian
    • Italic
      
      
    • Celtic
      • Old Irish - Middle Irish - Scots Gaelic, Manx, Irish
      • British Celtic - Welsh, Cornish, Breton, Cumbrian, Gaulish
      • Lepontic
      • Celtiberian

This would seem to contradict information in the thread, or am I still failing to grasp some basic fact?

Thanks again.

That seems a little complicted and unclear. By my understanding, Proto-Celtic evolved from Indo-European which then evolved into the various branches including the (extinct) -

Lepontic, Gaulish (and Cisalpine Gaulish), Galatian and Celtiberian languages


Insular Celtic languages are of course divided into:

P Celtic - Welsh, Cornish and Breton

and Q Celtic - Irish, Scots Gaelic, and Manx



However, the process of this evolution from Proto-Celtic to the various groups is still very unclear, because the continental Celts left very little written evidence and most of the evidence is reconstructed from anthroponymic and topographic data.

Enkidu

mathepac wrote: »

This would seem to contradict information in the thread, or am I still failing to grasp some basic fact?

Thanks again.

What part of it contradicts the information in this thread?

mathepac

Enkidu wrote: »

What part of it contradicts the information in this thread?

If it doesn't, that's great. Thanks.

Enkidu

mathepac wrote: »

If it doesn't, that's great. Thanks.

I should say, if there is anything that seems to be contradictory to you, please don't hesitate to ask. Some of this stuff can be confusing at first.

mathepac

Yeah thanks,. I have an interest in the Celts but was originally blinded to the realities by a great-uncle of mine, whose views were in retrospect insular, to say the least. When I look in here from time-to-time I want it to be relaxing and re-affirming. Relaxing it's not because unlike my great-uncles' position, there are no easy answers here, just more questions. Re-affirming? I'll let you know once I relax.

Congratulations though guys, When I borrowed My Book (see above) from the local library, it was the first "ancient Irish/ Celtic" book I'd tackled since school, all thanks to this thread.

slowburner

mathepac wrote: »

Yeah thanks,. I have an interest in the Celts but was originally blinded to the realities by a great-uncle of mine, whose views were in retrospect insular, to say the least. When I look in here from time-to-time I want it to be relaxing and re-affirming. Relaxing it's not because unlike my great-uncles' position, there are no easy answers here, just more questions. Re-affirming? I'll let you know once I relax.

Congratulations though guys, When I borrowed My Book (see above) from the local library, it was the first "ancient Irish/ Celtic" book I'd tackled since school, all thanks to this thread.

I don't wish to pry, so disregard this if you feel it is prying.
It's just that I'm curious about this insular stance you mention.
Of course, if this causes a decrease in your ability to relax - also disregard the enquiry

mathepac

slowburner wrote: »

... It's just that I'm curious about this insular stance you mention. ...

Great Uncle John had a wonderful store-house of books and two of his favourites were translations from the Irish of folk-tales and legends of Ireland by Augusta Gregory and I think one had a preface by W. B. Yates. One book was about Cuchulainn and the other I can't remember.

These were Irish / Celtic stories written from the old oral tradition of story-telling and he was proud that our ancestors had been bards, story-makers and story tellers (as well as marriage-brokers, geneologists and record-keepers in ancient times.) A mere child at the time, I thought he seemed old enough to have known all the ancients intimately.

All of this "stuff" was Irish and the Irish were Celts and pure of blood, all others were mongrel half-breeds and cast-offs of no account, according to Great Uncle John.

dubhthach

Here's a great example of an old Seanachaí -- the sort whom the stories were written down from. In this case he was a monoglot who couldn't speak english. The footage is from the 1980's interesting the BBC presenter mentions that last storyteller who could tell epics the length of the illiad had died 40 years before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP4nXlKJx_4

I'd read the story he's telling if it was available in print!

slowburner

That made the hairs stand up on the back of my neck!
I studied under Séamus O'Catháin for a while, probably around the time of that footage (:eek: I'm very old).

Anyway, the rhythm of the speech is spectacular, musical in itself.
What a treat, and so good to see that the hinternet has preserved such an important fragment of living heritage.

dubhthach

slowburner wrote: »

That made the hairs stand up on the back of my neck!
I studied under Séamus O'Catháin for a while, probably around the time of that footage (:eek: I'm very old).

Anyway, the rhythm of the speech is spectacular, musical in itself.
What a treat, and so good to see that the hinternet has preserved such an important fragment of living heritage.

I think it also shows some very important points about both the Táin and the Iliad. As modern readers we are used to sitting down and reading a text, so when we approach both of these they can somewhat seem abit repetive at times. Part of reason is that they are Oral stories written down as they were been spoken. If you think about been told a long story, you would need to have a certain amount of repetition to keep the audience aware what was going on.

As an example the folklore commission collected a story in the 1940's that took over two nights to record (If I recall correctly) , if you were telling an epic story like the Táin or the Iliad over the night fires it could take several nights.

slowburner

Kind of like the purpose of a chorus - as in:
'There was an auld woman, who lived in the bog, a weelia, weelia, wallia' (forgive the spelling).

slowburner

Here are two brief quotations with references to the Iberian connection.
Both are from the often controversial Giraldus Cambrensis (Gerald de Barry 1147 - c.1220) - Topographia Hibernica. Dis. III Chap. X



"On the character,customs, and external appearance of the Irish."

They go to battle without armour, which they
regard as an encumbrance : and in fact think it a sign
of valour and an honour to fight without such protection.
Of weapons they use but three kinds : short
spears and pairs of darts and in this they follow the
custom of the Basques...

Veins of various kinds of metal abound in the earth,
but owing to the same criminal indolence they are
not worked or turned to account. Gold, for which
the natives thirst to an extent that betrays their
Iberian origin, is brought hither by the chapmen who
scour the seas in search of commerce.

dubhthach

The Basques like the Sardinians are fairly genetically isolated in Europe. No doubt due to their inhabitiation of a "mountain fastness". As a result the form a distinctive population that shows evident gaps from rest of European populations when you graph them in a genetic cluster.

Interesting enough they follow general Western European trends in that most common male Y chromosome haplogroup is R1b. However they belong to a very young clade of R1b (M153 in particular). There's some implication that they absorbed male populations that were heavily R1b. Some have talk about a late "basquifiying" process in what is now the Spanish Basque country. Eg. there are placenames that are evident of a previous Indo-European speaking population in the Basque country. The implies expansion out of Aquitania/Pyrenees in early dark ages.The high level of R1b is what led people 10 years ago to claim that R1b was paleoithic in Europe and that as result Irish people were really Basques. Unfortunately more modern evidence shows this just hogwash. Most Irish men belong to R1b-L21 which is at most 4,000 years old and originate more then likely in France. In comparison Ireland has been inhabited for 10k years. All ancient DNA that has been recovered from western Europe that dates from Neolithic or older shows a lack of Haplogroup R1b (if male). Instead we see Haplogroups G and I (Otsi the Iceman is Haplogroup G) predominate. Interesting enough the bigest non R1b grouping in Ireland is Haplogroup I, men who carry it are probably "Old European" in ancestry.

I reckon that Giraldus was just been controversial like the rest of his work (piece of propaganda)

slowburner

Iceland and Ireland on the periphery of Europe had been misrepresented in medieval writings, the latter more through malice than ignorance in writings of Giraldus Cambrensis

The allegations about the Irish were equally tabloid in nature but were of an entirely different magnitude being conceived for a political purpose

The above statements are from a paper by Hiram Morgan of UCC (see here for the full text).
It is an analysis of the possible reasons for, and similarities between misrepresentation of Icelandic and Irish cultures by medieval scribes like De Barry.

Agent Weebley

I am really enjoying this thread, but I have to mind my "P"s and "Q"s when adding a link . . . especially the "P"s right now.

I found the following video most edutaining on YouTube:

Search: Legends of the Celts 1/6

slowburner

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwvvkCM7mcY

Enkidu

dubhthach wrote: »

I'd read the story he's telling if it was available in print!

Some of the stories from the area are available in the wonderful books:
Le Gradam is le spraoi (with dignity and with joy)
and
A Mhuintir Dhú Chaocháin (O people of "The area around Carrowteige")

I'm trying to find a copy of the "Homeric" epic mentioned at the beginning of the clip.

bolgios

Thought this might be interesting. 3D reconstruction of the burial procession and cremation of a Celtic chieftain:

http://balkancelts.wordpress.com/2013/02/11/burial-procession-of-a-chieftain/



Also the latest info. on the Celts in Poland, who were mentioned at the beginning of this thread:

http://balkancelts.wordpress.com/2013/02/09/the-celts-in-poland/