Olympic Selections for RR and TT

morana

Wonder who it will be?

Selection panel sat last night. I dont know at the moment.

RobFowl

morana wrote: »

Wonder who it will be?

Selection panel sat last night. I dont know at the moment.

Me and bcmf for the RR
Beasty as our leadout man and for the tt

tawfeeredux

Would they not have waited until the nationals are over? As it stands, i'd send Dan Martin, Matt Brammieir & Adam Armstrong, with Matt for the TT as well.

morana

tawfeeredux wrote: »

Would they not have waited until the nationals are over? As it stands, i'd send Dan Martin, Matt Brammieir & Adam Armstrong, with Matt for the TT as well.

we have to allow time for appeals and the nominations have to be in by a certain date.

Very daring selection there!

Beasty

RobFowl wrote: »

Me and bcmf for the RR
Beasty as our leadout man and for the tt

Saving myself for the other lot on the track - saw Geraint Thomas in Manchester yesterday - he's looking a bit too gaunt for the Team Pursuit. Vicky Pendleton was there also;)

Dura Ace

This topic had also been mentioned in another post, so adding Tawfeeredux's vote to earlier votes sees it looking like this.

Dan Martin - 4
Matt Brammeier - 2
Sam Bennett - 2
Nicolas Roche - 2
Adam Armstrong - 1
David McCann 1

nomadic

Martin, Roche, Bennett

It'd be great to see Armstrong get in there but that isn't going to happen.

RO 06

nomadic wrote: »

Martin, Roche, Bennett

It'd be great to see Armstrong get in there but that isn't going to happen.

Who would you put in for TT from them 3

nomadic

RO 06 wrote: »

Who would you put in for TT from them 3

None of them, but the TT has no bearing on who is selected.

RO 06

nomadic wrote: »

RO 06 wrote: »

Who would you put in for TT from them 3

None of them, but the TT has no bearing on who is selected.

I know it has no bearing but one of them has to do it

buffalo

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/announcement-of-olympic-team-delayed-after-appeal-from-excluded-rider/

The announcement of the Irish Olympic team, which was due today, has been delayed after one of the short-listed riders who was not picked lodged an appeal to his exclusion.

Cycling Ireland must now activate the appeals process and let that run its course in coming days before it can announce the three-man team for London.

...

With Dan Martin’s place assured, it meant the remaining two places effectively came down to a three-man race between Roche, McCann and Bennett.

So whose money is on Roche being the one who appealed?

RobFowl

All I'd say is the selectors had an almost impossible descision.
Roche would normally be a shoo in but really has shown no form at all this year and not much last year either bar the stahe win in China.
McCann Is a class act and will ride a decent TT (I know thats not one of the listed criteria).
Bennett to me is the future of Irish cycling so should go and if it does come down to a sprint and he's there I'd not rule him out.

buffalo

Bit more info on the appeals process from VelNation:

A Cycling Ireland Selection Appeal Panel (CISAP) consisting of five people will now consider the issue. They are Richard Archibold from the Sport Institute of Northern Ireland, the law practitioner Aideen Collard, Swim Ireland high performance director Shane Keane, who formerly worked with the Irish Sports Council, Cycling Ireland board member Anto Moran and Anthony Walsh, who has a Masters in Sports Law.

They will determine whether or not there are grounds for an appeal. If they decide there is, they will meet between now and Monday, and communicate the decision to Cycling Ireland’s CEO by Tuesday. The nominations will subsequently be made to the Olympic Council of Ireland and announced publically.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/12060/Irish-Olympic-selection-announcement-delayed-due-to-appeal.aspx

el tel

It's amazing on how many commitee members get their oar in. I'd love to work for a sporting governing body. It must be awesome. The only tough part is coping the flak from the public when you make rubbish decisions.

I have a friend who regularly plays and wins at his sport in the USA. The Irish governing body would often only support two or three competitors yet would send four or five officials, none of whom actively were there to assist the competitors. No coaches, medical or support staff, just bureaucrats.

Anyway, my picks would be Martin and McCann + one other.

Beasty

el tel wrote: »

It's amazing on how many commitee members get their oar in.

From what I can see, there is only 1 Board member on the appeals panel (I'm sure he'll pipe up if any of the others are)

ednwireland

sorry nicholas, surely it has to be on current form and to date he hasnt shown any

“I obviously would be very disappointed if I wasn’t going there,” Roche told VeloNation in recent days, “and I think it would be a non-realistic team. I think if myself and Dan [Martin] are not on the team, then I honestly don’t think it would be fair, because if we have three spots today, it is because of what we have done over the past few years.”

Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/12038/Roche-hoping-for-no-Olympic-selection-surprises.aspx#ixzz1xCjjCJRx

Beasty

What chance would Roche have of medalling even if he did have some form? What big one-day race(s) has he ever placed in (it's not intended to be rhetorical, but I can't think of any)?

If he can't medal, can he do something to help one of the others medal?

If it came down to Roche or Bennett, ignoring the selection criteria (which is what has caused the issue), I would go with the guy who will get the most out of the experience, who would appear to me to be Bennett.

If it's down to McCann or Roche, that would be a different ball-game, and I could understand a desire to put the younger French guy in ahead of the older UK guy ...;)

el tel

Beasty wrote: »

From what I can see, there is only 1 Board member on the appeals panel (I'm sure he'll pipe up if any of the others are)

Sorry, was not clear - actually meant the number of people overall - not merely committee members per se

oh and to add - the fact that TT performance is not a factor in the decision is a strange one. ANyone know why this is the case?

Beasty

el tel wrote: »

Sorry, was not clear - actually meant the number of people overall - not merely committee members per se

Having cast my eye over what has been happening with the track programme in recent times, and in particular Martyn Irvine's exploits, it seems to me that resources have been used very sparingly, and only those who are absolutely required are sent (and even then I think the team has been offered help from other teams on occasions)

el tel wrote: »

oh and to add - the fact that TT performance is not a factor in the decision is a strange one. ANyone know why this is the case?

Pure guess on my part, but given the level of competition in the TT, the chances of a medal would always have been very remote/virtually nil, so I would imagine they would be more focussed on getting a small road team that could possibly work together on the off chance they could get something between them.

I'm sure it would have been different if Ireland had produced a world-class time triallist in recent times, and if they were that good I would imagine they would have picked up enough qualification points to get into the team anyway

morana

el tel wrote: »

Sorry, was not clear - actually meant the number of people overall - not merely committee members per se

oh and to add - the fact that TT performance is not a factor in the decision is a strange one. ANyone know why this is the case?

the people sitting on the appeals panel are volunteers. I dont understand your initial post. None of us are getting anything out of this. The regulation demands 5 people consisting of a bm, law practioner and a hp director from another sport. I am on it because I have presided over all the appeals lodged in the last 2 years and am familiar with the process.

Just to reiterate board members dont get paid we dont even get a free licence.

riparooo

Given his form, lack of, for the past two seasons and particulary this season where he has been anonymous, I can't see any reason to send Roche.

The decision has to be two main things;

The individual rider ability to win a medal. In Roche's case there is almost zero chance bar some bizarre set of circumstances.

The individual rider history of delivering wins for a team mate. I'm not aware of anytime that Roche has done so.

Then other factors come into play such as development of the individual selected, ie will it benefit them and in this case it would be clearer that the spot is better off going to Bennett than Roche.

I think this is a shame as Roche looked a couple of seasons ago that he was developing into a potentially great GC rider but aside from Beijing last year the best you could describe his results when he has been as supported rider or leader is mediocre.

Maybe his whole season this year has been inspired by an Andy Shclek type approach of - doing nothing all season and then storm the TdF........only time will tell but unfortnately too late for Roche for the Olympics.

morana

el tel wrote: »

It's amazing on how many commitee members get their oar in. I'd love to work for a sporting governing body. It must be awesome. The only tough part is coping the flak from the public when you make rubbish decisions.
.

this annoys me what a load of bollocks!

I have a 4 hour board meeting tonight. I then have an appeals process probably on Sunday when I was supposed to be doing the wicklow 200 and will probably miss the Irish game. I wont be going the olympics or the worlds but will probably turn up at the Nationals. I wont be getting paid for that either.

And if you want to work on a ngb its not a problem just stand for election at congress next year.

el tel

morana wrote: »

the people sitting on the appeals panel are volunteers. I dont understand your initial post. None of us are getting anything out of this. The regulation demands 5 people consisting of a bm, law practioner and a hp director from another sport. I am on it because I have presided over all the appeals lodged in the last 2 years and am familiar with the process.

Just to reiterate board members dont get paid we dont even get a free licence.

I appreciate that you are volunteers, was not casting aspersions.

May I ask out of interest, do the appeals panel have a separate set of criteria to work to or must they work to the original criteria? If yes to the former, does the HP director have access to medical or biometric data to assist a decision? What is a bm?

morana

el tel wrote: »

I appreciate that you are volunteers, was not casting aspersions.

May I ask out of interest, do the appeals panel have a separate set of criteria to work to or must they work to the original criteria? If yes to the former, does the HP director have access to medical or biometric data to assist a decision? What is a bm?

the appeals panel have to judge if there is merit in the appeal. If there is then a hearing is arranged and the panel have to be satisfied if the criteria were followed correctly. If not we can refer back for reconsideration of the selection panel. We have no powers of rreselection.

A bm is a board member.

nilhg

morana wrote: »

the people sitting on the appeals panel are volunteers. I dont understand your initial post. None of us are getting anything out of this. The regulation demands 5 people consisting of a bm, law practioner and a hp director from another sport. I am on it because I have presided over all the appeals lodged in the last 2 years and am familiar with the process.

Just to reiterate board members dont get paid we dont even get a free licence.

Just interested in the process, do the appeal board members review the points awarded by the original board or start off with a clean slate and redo the process from the start?

Beasty

morana wrote: »

I was supposed to be doing the wicklow 200

You need to check out this thread then;)

ROK ON

I am not sure that it has been confirmed that it is in fact Nico, but most cycling fans would be surprised if it wasn't him.

If I were him I would try and use this is a catalyst to honestly evaluate where he is in his career relative to where he believes that he should be. He is wallowing at present and wasting what he has.

Hopefully this is all resolved soon, but if it is him that is not selected I do not see how in honesty be can complain.

Chips Lovell

My information is that Roche was selected and another rider is appealing.

morana

nilhg wrote: »

Just interested in the process, do the appeal board members review the points awarded by the original board or start off with a clean slate and redo the process from the start?

No we just review what they have done and make sure the process was followed correctly

Beasty wrote: »

You need to check out this thread then;)

I got an invite from the IVCA as a Board member of CI.....one of the big perks of the job!

The former HP Director isnt involved in anyway.

Lumen

ROK ON wrote: »

I am not sure that it has been confirmed that it is in fact Nico, but most cycling fans would be surprised if it wasn't him.

If I were him I would try and use this is a catalyst to honestly evaluate where he is in his career relative to where he believes that he should be. He is wallowing at present and wasting what he has.

Hopefully this is all resolved soon, but if it is him that is not selected I do not see how in honesty be can complain.

I think it's a bit unfair to speculatively criticise Roche in that way.

With respect, you're also being a bit weaselly by saying "most cycling fans would be surprised if it wasn't him", the wording of which manages to advance an opinion, imply that it is endorsed by other people, and disown it.

joker77

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

My information is that Roche was selected and another rider is appealing.

Brammeier?

ROK ON

Lumen wrote: »

I think it's a bit unfair to speculatively criticise Roche in that way.

With respect, you're also being a bit weaselly by saying "most cycling fans would be surprised if it wasn't him", the wording of which manages to advance an opinion, imply that it is endorsed by other people, and disown it.

It's unfair, but now moot given comments by Vlad that it is not Nico.

I don't disown the comment at all. I meant what I said even if it was unfair.

RobFowl

ROK ON wrote: »

It's unfair, but now moot given comments by Vlad that it is not Nico.

I don't disown the comment at all. I meant what I said even if it was unfair.

FWIW I'd have agreed with ROK ON ....

RobFowl

Anyway we can only speculate. Anyone who actually knows would be unaable to say so definitively unless it was the rider who admitted it was him.

Stand by my opinion that the selectors had an impossible job.....

Inquitus

http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/other/2012/0608/1224317557309.html

Brammeier appeals Olympic selection.

Cycling Ireland confirmed to The Irish Times on Friday that Dan Martin, Nicolas Roche and David McCann had originally been selected, with the 21-year-old Sam Bennett being named as a reserve.

buffalo

He is the national road champ two years running (and TT champ, even if that doesn't count), can't blame him for appealing, even if was an outsider. Has he had any results this year?

ednwireland

cant really see what brammiers beef is tbh

Lumen

RobFowl wrote: »

FWIW I'd have agreed with ROK ON ....

You were surprised that is wasn't Roche who got dropped and complained?

amjon.

Why is McCann selected? Bram is pro tour material, McCann isn't. He'd probably break his legs right now if it wasn't for the time off the bike earlier in the season.

Blackrockcomet

I presume Brammeier's argument is that he is the national champion, one of three Irish riders at the highest level and the current system is disproportionately in favour of riders at lower levels.

Also, I can't understand the vitriol against Roche. He has probably wrongly pursued GC over stage wins but he is probably the best chance(albeit slim) that we have. For me McCann is the odd man out, he is operating at a lower level and would struggle to step back up to this level, particularly at this stage of his career.

I can understand the talk of bringing Bennett for experience. He would learn a lot as it is quite likely to end in a bunch sprint but even in this scenario, Roche would be our best lead out man. He regularly leads Mondory out.

Inquitus

Blackrockcomet wrote: »

I presume Brammeier's argument is that he is the national champion, one of three Irish riders at the highest level and the current system is disproportionately in favour of riders at lower levels.

Also, I can't understand the vitriol against Roche. He has probably wrongly pursued GC over stage wins but he is probably the best chance(albeit slim) that we have. For me McCann is the odd man out, he is operating at a lower level and would struggle to step back up to this level, particularly at this stage of his career.

I can understand the talk of bringing Bennett for experience. He would learn a lot as it is quite likely to end in a bunch sprint but even in this scenario, Roche would be our best lead out man. He regularly leads Mondory out.

I agree totally. Roche, Brammier and Martin are head and shoulders our best 3 RR cyclists, consistently racing at the highest level, could understand possibly to giving a nod to Bennett who is the future. McCann doesn't really make a great deal of sense.

tawfeeredux

Inquitus wrote: »

I agree totally. Roche, Brammier and Martin are head and shoulders our best 3 RR cyclists, consistently racing at the highest level, could understand possibly to giving a nod to Bennett who is the future. McCann doesn't really make a great deal of sense.

+1. Roche, Martin & Brammeier are our most realistic (even if remote) prospects in terms of medalling at the Olympics & as such I wouldn't have much argument if those 3 were selected.
I would have thought Brammeier was almost a cert given his status as current road & TT nat champ. Ok, he's had few or no results this season, but the team role he played in Quickstep's early season could have been replicated in the RR. Neither himself or McCann are going to get near medalling in the TT so for me it comes down to who can do the best work in the RR for our 'realistic' medal hope(s).
Would have liked to see Bennett/Armstrong/McConvey/another selected with a view to the future, maybe instead of Roche (i do like Nico, but I think he needs to re-prioritise his goals & non-selection for the games might have kicked him into doing that).

goldencleric

Brammeier not selected? I guess that's only 4 other GBs riding on the front for Cav :P

</joke>

BryanL

Quickstep should have ridden the RAS.

CtrlAltDelete

QuickStep wouldn't be fit for THE RAS... :rolleyes:

Carpenter

All Brammeier would do is sit on DM wheel like last year,s national

Beasty

Presumably all the riders knew the selection criteria before the "qualification" period started. If any of them chose to do their own thing and pick up whatever qualification points came their way, I don't think they can complain if other riders are picked ahead of them. If I understand it correctly, they would basically have needed to stay 100 points ahead of the 4th placed rider to pretty much guarantee a place and take any "decision" out of the hands of the selection committee. Once it is in their hands the riders are basically taking their chances

I would stuggle to believe the selection committee have gone outside the selection criteria, and would therefore be surprised if anything gets overturned.

If there is an issue with the selection critera, it's too late to change it for London 2012. Lessons can be learned though if changes are required for future events.

buffalo

I take back my doubts, Nico is looking strong!

BryanL

Carpenter wrote: »

All Brammeier would do is sit on DM wheel like last year,s national

I was at the smithfield noctourne in london at the weekend. Ian Stannard was riding. All the bunch had to do was sit on his wheel.
No one could, he drilled it on the front made a split with 11 then drilled it some more leaving 3 on his wheel, lapped the bunch with just Kristin house holding his wheel. passed the entire bunch and rode off the front with a lap to go, winning by himself.

Pro tour is a different level to the Ras or Pro continental.

Marcin Biabilocki won a stage in the RAS, was 2nd in 2 stages and third on another and he couldn't move up the group on saturday night. Stannard averaged 53kph on a tight course with 4 bends :eek:

BryanL

Beasty wrote: »

Presumably all the riders knew the selection criteria before the "qualification" period started. If any of them chose to do their own thing and pick up whatever qualification points came their way, I don't think they can complain if other riders are picked ahead of them.


If there is an issue with the selection critera, it's too late to change it for London 2012. Lessons can be learned though if changes are required for future events.

These are professional riders they can't dictate to their employers that they'd be better off riding the RAS?

As soon as the selection criteria was announced Dan Martin flagged big issues with it. Changes could and should have been made then.

Lumen

BryanL wrote: »

I was at the smithfield noctourne in london at the weekend. Ian Stannard was riding...Stannard averaged 53kph on a tight course with 4 bends :eek:

I don't disagree with your assertion that pro tour riders are freaks of nature, but...

http://roadcyclinguk.com/news/racing-news/london-ig-nocturne-984.html

"The 25-year-old, who had earlier won the elite elimination race, raced to victory the main event at an average speed of 49kmh"