playing positions most/least likely to score

pickarooney

I was just wondering if anyone had any stats or even intuition on what playing positions tend to score the most and fewest tries. I'd guess wingers and centres would be top and locks and scrum-halves near the bottom but it's just a hunch really.

Also, if anyone has similar stats for tackles made and time with ball in hand it would be interesting to know.

Tox56

The most obvious answer I can give without any stats to back it up is wingers score most and props score fewest.

Would say locks make most tackles and outhalves with most time on ball.

As I say, no stats!

IRL_Sinister

pickarooney wrote: »

I was just wondering if anyone had any stats or even intuition on what playing positions tend to score the most and fewest tries. I'd guess wingers and centres would be top and locks and scum-halves near the bottom but it's just a hunch really.

Also, if anyone has similar stats for tackles made and time with ball in hand it would be interesting to know.

A general rule of thumb: Forwards to all the hard-work and the backs make it look good by scoring the tries.

People who score the most tries: Wingers. However, I believe Brian O' Driscoll is Ireland's CURRENT top try-scorer (Hickey, I'm assuming, is the all-time top try scorer).

You mentioned how scum-halves don't score, neither do 10's (well, in terms of 5 points at least). Naturally, the front-row has a low scoring rate too (although the fitness and athleticism of front-rows these days is extremely good).

Tackles made and ball in hand? Let's just say this: Back-row.

Fishooks12

I've never played in the pack but I've played everywhere bar 10 and 9 in the backline.

12 would be the lowest try scoring rater in my experience by a good deal

15 isn't as bountiful as you'd think either




(or maybe I'm just a bad finisher! )

TimeToShine

from intuition wingers score the most and hooker/props score the least, maybe full back as well especially at low levels. second rows and flankers probably tackle the most

Podge_irl

BOD is way, way out on his own as Irelands top ever try scorers. That would be fairly unusual though, I'd be expecting wingers and fullbacks to generally score more them centres.

errlloyd

This seriously lacks precision but we'll go with it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_leading_rugby_union_test_try_scorers

Mostly wingers in the top 10, only BOD and Umanga bucking the trend there. So it would indicate maybe more tries scores on the wing, after that it's clearly outside centres who score more, followed by some fullbacks, then inside centres. It looks like outhalves out scrumhalves come next.

There is an incomplete list of forwards at the bottom. Number 8s, then flankers (hardly surprising) however there are at least 3 hookers listed before any second rows (I think), so it would appear hookers score quite a bit.

Now obviously this list is pretty ****, like the real question here is "would Brian O Driscoll score more tries playing any other position", IE which position is easiest to score tries. It's chicken and egg on this list, you put your best try scorer on the wing, thats why wingers score more!

marienbad

IRL_Sinister wrote: »

A general rule of thumb: Forwards to all the hard-work and the backs make it look good by scoring the tries.

People who score the most tries: Wingers. However, I believe Brian O' Driscoll is Ireland's CURRENT top try-scorer (Hickey, I'm assuming, is the all-time top try scorer).

You mentioned how scum-halves don't score, neither do 10's (well, in terms of 5 points at least). Naturally, the front-row has a low scoring rate too (although the fitness and athleticism of front-rows these days is extremely good).

Tackles made and ball in hand? Let's just say this: Back-row.

I think O'gara has a few for Ireland though , Highest try scorer in a six nations once for us if I remember rightly.

Fishooks12

I'm not sure if All time top scorers would be too indicative of any trend considering some of the freakish players on the list (BOD)

.ak

All is as it should be then. Wingers are the rugby equivalent of strikers, they're out there to to run at pace through space and finish the move...

..unless you're Sean Cronin.

pickarooney

I think the question popped into my head watching the HEC final highlights when all the front rowers were popping over for tries. That, and memories of Keith Wood against the States made me wonder if certain playing styles or games weren't more conducive to the fatties crossing the line. I can't think of any second rowers who've scored any significant number of tries (even John Eales' points nearly all came from his boot). I think I recall Toner and Gray this year and that's about it, but I didn't watch a great number of matches this season.

Fishooks12

I'd imagine tighthead locks would probably be as low as props too, maybe even lower

Tox56

pickarooney wrote: »

I think the question popped into my head watching the HEC final highlights when all the front rowers were popping over for tries. That, and memories of Keith Wood against the States made me wonder if certain playing styles or games weren't more conducive to the fatties crossing the line. I can't think of any second rowers who've scored any significant number of tries. I think I recall Toner and Gray this year and that's about it, but I didn't watch a great number of matches this season.

Tuohy scored in the very match you're talking about, but yes as a general rule of thumb locks are busy doing the dirty work

Bassfish

Depends a lot on the team's playing style too, for a team like like Leinster or clermont the back 3 are going to get the lions share because it's open running rugby. A team who play like Munster or south Africa who go for mauling and dominating in the tight will have a lot of scores from the back row. Could be wrong but I think Anthony Foley is munster's highest try scorer in the Heineken because he was always at the back of the maul to fall down on the ball as soon as they pushed it over the line.

Kev_2012

Most likely - wing

But try playing outside a greedy 13/fullback :mad:

Teferi

I'd say lock would be the lowest try scorers. The front row is often brought in to make that final yard over the line which would up their scores I'd reckon.

ambid

Slightly off topic but related.

On this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONQZ_MSBLnM at 1:07 both BOD and POC are asked which position they most dislike to play. BOD said he started as a second row and it's the least enjoyable position on the pitch. POC thinks for a while and then says... yes second row is indeed the most unenjoyable position to play!

bilston

If D'Arcy's strike rate for Ireland is anything to go by then I'd say 12 is the position where least tries are scored from!

My guess is that wingers will always be the highest scorers as they are more often than not the beneficiaries of any overlaps that may develop.

GerM

Teferi wrote: »

I'd say lock would be the lowest try scorers. The front row is often brought in to make that final yard over the line which would up their scores I'd reckon.

I'd go with that. Purely by their shape, locks are not designed to carry the ball. They struggle to get low and burst through tackles the way other forwards can. If you go through the Irish locks, very few of them have more than a couple of tries. The ones that do, tend to be the likes of Tuohy who are extremely mobile and athletic and are found in the back row too. Front row players are generally smaller, more explosive players and can often carry quite decently. Healy, Varley, Cronin, Horan, Best, Afoa etc. are all potent carriers on their day and cross the whitewash.

The current 4 locks in the Irish squad have 7 tries between them in 190 caps which is as many as Rory Best has scored in 59 caps.

Tox56

It's the mindset of a lock, when SOB made that break for the Healy try in the final, one of the first men there was Thorn. He wasn't interested in a pick and go, his instinct was to clear out the opposition over the ball, rather than exploit Ulster's disorganized scramble defence in the way someone like BOD probably would have.

http://www.oddschecker.com/rugby-union/internationals/international-matches/wales-v-barbarians/last-tryscorer

wingers
fullbacks
centres
back row
front row
half backs
second row

pickarooney

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.oddschecker.com/rugby-union/internationals/international-matches/wales-v-barbarians/last-tryscorer

wingers
fullbacks
centres
back row
front row
half backs
second row

That kind of tallies up with what I imagined

bamboozle

Mike Ross has never scored a professional try, Cian Healy scores loads of trys.

as the old saying goes, forwards decide who win matches, backs decide how much.

you gotta throw in team tactics also, looks at Howletts try scoring record for Munster, doesnt set the world on fire, but he's been an awesome team player for them.

bamboozle

IRL_Sinister wrote: »

A general rule of thumb: Forwards to all the hard-work and the backs make it look good by scoring the tries.

People who score the most tries: Wingers. However, I believe Brian O' Driscoll is Ireland's CURRENT top try-scorer (Hickey, I'm assuming, is the all-time top try scorer).

You mentioned how scum-halves don't score, neither do 10's (well, in terms of 5 points at least). Naturally, the front-row has a low scoring rate too (although the fitness and athleticism of front-rows these days is extremely good).

Tackles made and ball in hand? Let's just say this: Back-row.

BOD is ireland's top try scorer, Hickie scoring trys for fun playing tag rugby these days in Old Belvo

.ak

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.oddschecker.com/rugby-union/internationals/international-matches/wales-v-barbarians/last-tryscorer

wingers
fullbacks
centres
back row
front row
half backs
second row

Leinster seemed to ignore that one. Their season looked a bit more like this:

half backs
full backs
front rows
wingers
centres
backrows
second rows

:P

mfceiling

Hookers would score quite well from rehearsed moves from the line out on a 5 metre throw in.

As for BOD's try scoring record it's probably slightly skewed the stats considering he's played over 100 times for Ireland.

WeeBushy

Yes I am procrastinating this much...

To use as an example I broke down the Leinster squad this season into tries scored, minutes played and strikerate (per minute - thought that was the fairest way to eliminate players getting more gametime than others, or there being more players in a certain position) and this is the order I came up with. It is slightly off as players that hadn't scored any tries skew the results somewhat, but I wanted to include them so gave them a strikerate of the total minutes they have played this season. If anyone has a better idea do tell. I put people in the position they have been most associated with this season.

This is the order I came up with:

1. Fullbacks (1T/169min)
2. Wingers (1T/368min)
3. Half Backs (1T/667min)
4. Centres (1T/707min)
5. Front Row (1T/721min)
6. Back Row (1T/820min)
7. 2nd Row (1T/929min)

I think the reason Front row is ahead of back row is because there are quite a few props with no tries scored and not huge game minutes, and because I then gave them the strike rate of their total minutes played it appears they did better than they actually did.

It is also a small sample size so players like Madigan having a great season or players coming back from injury affects the results more so than you would get over a larger sample size. I guess you would need a whole league of teams over a few seasons to get an accurate stat, but it's interesting nonetheless.

pickarooney

Leinster's two world class full-backs are maybe not indicative of the sport as a whole. I must see can I get every try score in the Rabo/Top14 for a season and split them by position.

[Jackass]

Surprised half-backs so far down the list, but certainly expected second rows to be bottom. Front rows often score off / are selected carriers for pop and drive over the line when in play, and hooker usually carries as the last player to join a rolling maul off a line out.

phog

WeeBushy wrote: »

Yes I am procrastinating this much...

To use as an example I broke down the Leinster squad this season into tries scored, minutes played and strikerate

On the attached spreadsheet you've only listed 33 players used I think it was around 48, also, you show only one fulback so that skews the average for the fb position.

lynchy101

IRL_Sinister wrote: »

A general rule of thumb: Forwards to all the hard-work and the backs make it look good by scoring the tries.

People who score the most tries: Wingers. However, I believe Brian O' Driscoll is Ireland's CURRENT top try-scorer (Hickey, I'm assuming, is the all-time top try scorer).

You mentioned how scum-halves don't score, neither do 10's (well, in terms of 5 points at least). Naturally, the front-row has a low scoring rate too (although the fitness and athleticism of front-rows these days is extremely good).

Tackles made and ball in hand? Let's just say this: Back-row.

Have you ever even watched rugby?

Monty Burnz

errlloyd wrote: »

This seriously lacks precision but we'll go with it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_leading_rugby_union_test_try_scorers

Mostly wingers in the top 10, only BOD and Umanga bucking the trend there.

Umaga started with the All Blacks as a winger and scored a lot of tries from there.

WeeBushy

phog wrote: »

On the attached spreadsheet you've only listed 33 players used I think it was around 48, also, you show only one fulback so that skews the average for the fb position.

I took the stats from players listed on Leinster's first team only and left out a couple of players that had played only a few minutes (like Dundon and Cooney who actually only got 60 minutes of rugby this season) so that's why there's less, as I didn't think those players are very representative. I also only listed Kearney as a fb as no one else played there as their main position. Its all very crude, I know, but it was successful at diverting the thesis for a short while!

errlloyd

WeeBushy wrote: »

I took the stats from players listed on Leinster's first team only and left out a couple of players that had played only a few minutes (like Dundon and Cooney who actually only got 60 minutes of rugby this season) so that's why there's less, as I didn't think those players are very representative. I also only listed Kearney as a fb as no one else played there as their main position. Its all very crude, I know, but it was successful at diverting the thesis for a short while!

As flawed as it was, incredibly interesting to look at and I am glad you put it together.

As I said earlier you will always be correcting for chickens and eggs though, does he finish because he's there, or is he there because he finishes! If a second row was a good ball carrier they might end up in the backrow, if a backrow was a little faster they'd end up in the centre, if a centre was a little jinkier they'd get on the wing.

phog

WeeBushy wrote: »

I took the stats from players listed on Leinster's first team only and left out a couple of players that had played only a few minutes (like Dundon and Cooney who actually only got 60 minutes of rugby this season) so that's why there's less, as I didn't think those players are very representative. I also only listed Kearney as a fb as no one else played there as their main position. Its all very crude, I know, but it was successful at diverting the thesis for a short while!

The first player I checked was Brendan Macken, played 517 mins in 10 games and got two tries.

Fireball07

I'm also a bit surprised by how low the half-backs are.

At the same time, I'd probably divide them up a bit further rather than "row-by-row". I mean a hooker is much more likely to score tries than a prop, I would say. And I'd say there's a difference between out-halves and scrum-halves too.

twinytwo

errlloyd wrote: »

This seriously lacks precision but we'll go with it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_leading_rugby_union_test_try_scorers

Mostly wingers in the top 10, only BOD and Umanga bucking the trend there. So it would indicate maybe more tries scores on the wing, after that it's clearly outside centres who score more, followed by some fullbacks, then inside centres. It looks like outhalves out scrumhalves come next.

There is an incomplete list of forwards at the bottom. Number 8s, then flankers (hardly surprising) however there are at least 3 hookers listed before any second rows (I think), so it would appear hookers score quite a bit.

Now obviously this list is pretty ****, like the real question here is "would Brian O Driscoll score more tries playing any other position", IE which position is easiest to score tries. It's chicken and egg on this list, you put your best try scorer on the wing, thats why wingers score more!

umaga scored most of his tries on the wing .. so really its just drico

edit... monty beat me too it

WeeBushy

phog wrote: »

The first player I checked was Brendan Macken, played 517 mins in 10 games and got two tries.

Oops, left him out. I'll add him in later. Tbh, I don't think much can be read from my stats, but what did strike me as interesting was how so many players had in or around the same game time. They manage their game time so well. But that's for the Leinster thread I think.

errlloyd

twinytwo wrote: »

umaga scored most of his tries on the wing .. so really its just drico

edit... monty beat me too it

Yeah fair enough, I guess using Umanga as a test subject it proves that wingers score more. He was the same player with the same ability, and pushed just one position inside he scored significantly less. I wonder can you plot that **** on a curve. (I.E, does the winger score the same proportion more than a 13, than a 13 would score over a 12).

daveharnett

I'd bet that left wingers tend to score more than right wings - it's easier for a right-handed players (ie the majority) to pass to their left, so left wings would tend to get better service.

pickarooney

After 8 months of getting nowhere near scoring, even in training, I managed to score twice in 8 days from the second row (a massive, 1-metre pick and go in each case). Funny how it goes.

GerM

pickarooney wrote: »

After 8 months of getting nowhere near scoring, even in training, I managed to score twice in 8 days from the second row (a massive, 1-metre pick and go in each case). Funny how it goes.

Showboater.