Double Olympic: Odd distance, same feulling as HIM?

BennyMul

A stupid question this close to an event.

But for the double, how much food gels etc should you be taking,

catweazle

I am sure its different for everyone but for the Humbert I had one just before the swim start and then one every 20 minutes on the bike, then had one every 4 k on the run.

That was way up from the previous year and it seemed to work as I didn't blow up last year

Oryx

BennyMul wrote: »

A stupid question this close to an event.

But for the double, how much food gels etc should you be taking,

I would say don't go mad on them unless you've been taking them a lot in training. Last longish event I did I took a pack of gel blocks on the bike and three gels on the run, and still I was sick as a dog. Its a personal thing based on how well you tolerate them. If its hot I think hydration will be the bigger issue.

BennyMul

Thanks all,
I usually only take water training for the bike and run never take gels in training. during the marathon I did take a gel ever hour along with water every 3 miles.

So i may aim for every 30min, and see how it goes on the day.
what the worst that can happen

sconhome

BennyMul wrote: »

A stupid question this close to an event.

But for the double, how much food gels etc should you be taking,

If I was racing this distance in this heat, plenty of isotonic fluids in the time up to the event, gel 10 mins before the swim
On the bike drinking more isotonic fluids for first 15mins, have a gel & some water. Nibble half a protein based energy bar every 20m and a second gel on the hour mark, repeat until you get to the run, drinking all the time.
On the run, I would change to lighter isotonic gels such as High 5 or Kinetica to avoid cramping from sugar.

Body can only abosorb 60g of glucose per hour which is roughly two Powerbar gels. If you have a mix of sugars (fructose / sucrose) you can increase this to 90g per hour. Also protein does help in longer endurance races to help fight muscle fatigue.

If its not as hot as the past few days reduce the amount of fluids. That's 2c worth.

miller82

amphkingwest wrote: »

If I was racing this distance in this heat, plenty of isotonic fluids in the time up to the event, gel 10 mins before the swim
On the bike drinking more isotonic fluids for first 15mins, have a gel & some water. Nibble half a protein based energy bar every 20m and a second gel on the hour mark, repeat until you get to the run, drinking all the time.
On the run, I would change to lighter isotonic gels such as High 5 or Kinetica to avoid cramping from sugar.

Body can only abosorb 60g of glucose per hour which is roughly two Powerbar gels. If you have a mix of sugars (fructose / sucrose) you can increase this to 90g per hour. Also protein does help in longer endurance races to help fight muscle fatigue.

If its not as hot as the past few days reduce the amount of fluids. That's 2c worth.

jesus i really need to give this stuff more time

PWEI

amphkingwest wrote: »

If I was racing this distance in this heat, plenty of isotonic fluids in the time up to the event, gel 10 mins before the swim
On the bike drinking more isotonic fluids for first 15mins, have a gel & some water. Nibble half a protein based energy bar every 20m and a second gel on the hour mark, repeat until you get to the run, drinking all the time.
On the run, I would change to lighter isotonic gels such as High 5 or Kinetica to avoid cramping from sugar.

Body can only abosorb 60g of glucose per hour which is roughly two Powerbar gels. If you have a mix of sugars (fructose / sucrose) you can increase this to 90g per hour. Also protein does help in longer endurance races to help fight muscle fatigue.

If its not as hot as the past few days reduce the amount of fluids. That's 2c worth.

If it's High 5 gels you take on the run, what gels do you use on the bike & before the swim?

shotgunmcos

amphkingwest wrote: »

If I was racing this distance in this heat, plenty of isotonic fluids in the time up to the event, gel 10 mins before the swim
On the bike drinking more isotonic fluids for first 15mins, have a gel & some water. Nibble half a protein based energy bar every 20m and a second gel on the hour mark, repeat until you get to the run, drinking all the time.
On the run, I would change to lighter isotonic gels such as High 5 or Kinetica to avoid cramping from sugar.

Body can only abosorb 60g of glucose per hour which is roughly two Powerbar gels. If you have a mix of sugars (fructose / sucrose) you can increase this to 90g per hour. Also protein does help in longer endurance races to help fight muscle fatigue.

If its not as hot as the past few days reduce the amount of fluids. That's 2c worth.

Nice and simple then :rolleyes:

elvis jones

Yeap all sugars aren't the same, first thing you learn as a diabetic !

Apples etc have fructose its a natural form of sugar and doesn't play havoc with my blood sugar level. If you can mix the sugar types you should get better results in energy release.

A lot use flat coke as a source of fructose as its made corn syrup. I've seen guys have a bottle of flat coke on the bike as they body can take it when the glucose.

I hope this makes sense:)

BennyMul

amphkingwest wrote: »

If I was racing this distance in this heat, plenty of isotonic fluids in the time up to the event, gel 10 mins before the swim
On the bike drinking more isotonic fluids for first 15mins, have a gel & some water. Nibble half a protein based energy bar every 20m and a second gel on the hour mark, repeat until you get to the run, drinking all the time.
On the run, I would change to lighter isotonic gels such as High 5 or Kinetica to avoid cramping from sugar.

Body can only abosorb 60g of glucose per hour which is roughly two Powerbar gels. If you have a mix of sugars (fructose / sucrose) you can increase this to 90g per hour. Also protein does help in longer endurance races to help fight muscle fatigue.

If its not as hot as the past few days reduce the amount of fluids. That's 2c worth.

elvis jones wrote: »

Yeap all sugars aren't the same, first thing you learn as a diabetic !

Apples etc have fructose its a natural form of sugar and doesn't play havoc with my blood sugar level. If you can mix the sugar types you should get better results in energy release.

A lot use flat coke as a source of fructose as its made corn syrup. I've seen guys have a bottle of flat coke on the bike as they body can take it when the glucose.

I hope this makes sense:)

thanks,
I should have asked this a few weeks ago.

elvis jones

An Olympic should be 2 to 3 hrs and the body stores enough for 2.5 hrs so not much is needed i believe for this level of race.

Proper eating leading up to the race and hydration during/before is much more important in my view.

sconhome

PWEI wrote: »

If it's High 5 gels you take on the run, what gels do you use on the bike & before the swim?

Me, I use Powerbar or GU early on, I find them more concentrated and can absorb them easily when on the bike. On the run they are too thick and need water to wash through. I've stomach cramped a couple of times on the run, and I put it to the gel.

I'm suggesting the High 5 or Kinetica as not needing water thus being easier on the tummy and I doubt there will be isotonic drinks on the run (open to correction).

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Nice and simple then :rolleyes:

It is double olympic the question was asked about and in this heat the main thing is to stay hydrated, and easiest to take carbs in with the fluids at same time. He'll sweat loads and use carbs in the swim that need to be replenished on the bike early or his system wont take them in.

elvis jones wrote: »

An Olympic should be 2 to 3 hrs and the body stores enough for 2.5 hrs so not much is needed i believe for this level of race.

Depends on the intensity of the race too. Again hydration is key I think.

elvis jones wrote: »

Proper eating leading up to the race and hydration during/before is much more important in my view.

100% in agreement.

I don't think gels are the answer either with the long distance.

RacoonQueen

Do yee not suffer from taking a gel before the swim? The back of gels tends to recommend taking one 30 mins before starting a race, tried it once and suffered badly.

This being said, I don't know why I persevere with high 5 gels when there are so many to choose from. Always have probs with gels.

PWEI

I take the High 5 gels & never had any problems with them.
I'm having more difficultly in finding a suitable energy bar to take during races. Have any of ye tried one of the following;

http://www.triradar.com/2012/03/15/energy-bars-review/

sconhome

I find the Powerbar energize good and recently started using the High 5 4:1 protein bar on long spins (3+ hours) with no gels just Zero electrolyte drink in one bottle and a second bottle of carb drink which I can refill if needed.

pgibbo

amphkingwest wrote: »

I find the Powerbar energize good and recently started using the High 5 4:1 protein bar on long spins (3+ hours) with no gels just Zero electrolyte drink in one bottle and a second bottle of carb drink which I can refill if needed.

AFAIK the 4:1 is supposed to be a waste of time. A lot of studies have shown that protein gives no benefit during endurance events. All you need are the carbs. Asker Jeukendrup and others have done a lot of studies on this. Here's one.

shotgunmcos

pgibbo wrote: »

AFAIK the 4:1 is supposed to be a waste of time. A lot of studies have shown that protein gives no benefit during endurance events. All you need are the carbs. Asker Jeukendrup and others have done a lot of studies on this. Here's one.

+1 I read a fair bit about this before the IM last year. Your body is going to waste some of the feul just to help break the proteins down. Feic that, carb all the way for me.

In terms of fuel for the race it may be useful to start by determining approx how many Kcals you will need. Assume you burn circa 600 an hour for 5 hours and have a gycogen store of 2000Kcals minimum to begin with (300g carb breakie and 500ml water to top up), you are looking at approx 1000Kcals (just using round numbers to illustrate). So thats 9 powerbar gels or 2 bars and 5 gels etc...

Rule of thumb is wash everything down with water and drip feed the feul. If your body can absorb 300 Kcals an hour then thats the equivalent of a gel every 20 mins, but not for teh entire race, obviously.

sconhome

pgibbo wrote: »

AFAIK the 4:1 is supposed to be a waste of time. A lot of studies have shown that protein gives no benefit during endurance events. All you need are the carbs. Asker Jeukendrup and others have done a lot of studies on this. Here's one.

Depends on what you are doing. From that study (my highlighting):

So, a strict interpretation of the research to date would be that if the goal is to ride a bike as long as possible at a fixed intensity, then ingesting protein along with carbohydrate during exercise is advisable. On the other hand, if going faster is the goal then there is no evidence that adding protein to carbohydrate is worthwhile.

Sorry that this is dragging the topic away from the thread. Maybe split into a new discussion?

elvis jones

Yes could a mod split this thread into the nutrition and what it started out as. I want to throw up the qualifiers for the comp but will wait until its split:)

Mod: Done you can find the original thread here

sconhome

Doesn't look like the heat or dehydration will be too much of a factor on Saturday.

elvis jones

amphkingwest wrote: »

Doesn't look like the heat or dehydration will be too much of a factor on Saturday.

tunney

amphkingwest wrote: »

If I was racing this distance in this heat, plenty of isotonic fluids in the time up to the event, gel 10 mins before the swim

Provided the isotonic fluids are sugar free I would agree. Otherwise no.
Something like nuun.

amphkingwest wrote: »

On the bike drinking more isotonic fluids for first 15mins, have a gel & some water. Nibble half a protein based energy bar every 20m and a second gel on the hour mark, repeat until you get to the run, drinking all the time.
On the run, I would change to lighter isotonic gels such as High 5 or Kinetica to avoid cramping from sugar.

So a gel, 1.5 energy bars and energy drink on the bike every hour? I couldn't stomach that many bars. Too much solids, too much staying in your tummy.

How does sugar cause cramping?? First I have ever heard of this?

amphkingwest wrote: »

Body can only abosorb 60g of glucose per hour which is roughly two Powerbar gels. If you have a mix of sugars (fructose / sucrose) you can increase this to 90g per hour.

Powerbar gels are fructose/glucose mixes in 2:1 so they are the 90g ones. High5 gels are the ones that are not a mix. GU too I believe. Torq and Powerbar are the mix ones.

amphkingwest wrote: »

Also protein does help in longer endurance races to help fight muscle fatigue.

Never proven.

amphkingwest wrote: »

If its not as hot as the past few days reduce the amount of fluids. That's 2c worth.

Its going to piss. Bring winter gear!!!

shotgunmcos

On the contrary I'd imagine it will be very warm and muggy, dense humidity so you could still sweat buckets. Err on the side of sunny day hydration IMO. Plus according to ME the first half of Saturday will by mainly dry. Oh how I'd love sunshine on the bike and then clouds and drizzle to roll in for the run

Realistically I may just bring a jacket

tunney

elvis jones wrote: »

An Olympic should be 2 to 3 hrs and the body stores enough for 2.5 hrs so not much is needed i believe for this level of race.

Proper eating leading up to the race and hydration during/before is much more important in my view.

Swishing a concentrated carb drink around your mouth and spitting it out releases a surge of energy. Not everything is simple calories in calories out Sometimes to get more out of your body the brain has to be reassured, or fooled, that there are enough calories to keep it and the heart going (Central governor theory)

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Need to double check the numbers later but for me something like this,

1x500ml water mixed with Nuun - prior to race start
2x750ml of high 5 2in1 - 540kcals - both on bike
7x powerbar gels - 770kcals - 1 prior to swim, 3 bike and 3 run
1x nutrigrain bars - 120kcals - on bike

That is 1430kcals over 5hrs and 286kcals p/hour.

If you have not tried and tested nutrition/hydration in training its a bit late now worrying about it:)

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3955179;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

Interesting thread on Slowtwitch for Jordan Rapps IMTX nutrition execution. Plenty of salt sticks:eek:

Bambaata

tunney wrote: »

Swishing a concentrated carb drink around your mouth and spitting it out releases a surge of energy. Not everything is simple calories in calories out Sometimes to get more out of your body the brain has to be reassured, or fooled, that there are enough calories to keep it and the heart going (Central governor theory)

I might try this again in the Sprint. But i might also carry a very small amount of water in case my mouth needs the rinse out towards the end!

Here's the piece on it - http://blog.trainingpeaks.com/posts/2011/4/26/carbohydrate-drinks-should-you-swallow.html

Its pretty interesting.

tunney

Charles Numerous Zeal wrote: »

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3955179;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

Interesting thread on Slowtwitch for Jordan Rapps IMTX nutrition execution. Plenty of salt sticks:eek:

If you are planning on using the in Roth trial them. They shred the stomachs for some people.

(i have some)

Bambaata wrote: »

I might try this again in the Sprint. But i might also carry a very small amount of water in case my mouth needs the rinse out towards the end!

Here's the piece on it - http://blog.trainingpeaks.com/posts/2011/4/26/carbohydrate-drinks-should-you-swallow.html

Its pretty interesting.

Needs to be more concentrated than normal.

Also doesn't work for women. Seemingly swallowing is required there.

BennyMul

Thanks for all the info,

so my plan for Saturday, please correct me if im wrong

1 bottle 500ml of high 5 zero tablets drank an hour before the race.
1 Gel (powerbar) consumed with water 30min before the swim start.

On the bike, I will have two bottles with High 5 zero tablets, 1 table in one, 2 in the other, consuming the weaker one first,
a Powerbar gel every 30min or so.
I will bring something solid to eat, as not sure what effect all the gels will have.
and consume if needed.

For the run, I will have high 5 gels as there are not as concentrated aiming for 1 every 5 k
Was considering carrying a small bottle of flat coke so a bit of buzz later in the run if needed. ot the good old fashioned "bonk" bottle

BTH

tunney wrote: »

Needs to be more concentrated than normal.

Also doesn't work for women. Seemingly swallowing is required there.

Behave

sconhome

tunney wrote: »

How does sugar cause cramping??

Its the stomach cramping, I should have clarified that rather than leading to confusion with muscle cramping. Generally undigested, slush jiggling around in the stomach leading to stomach cramping & voiding.

tunney

amphkingwest wrote: »

Its the stomach cramping, I should have clarified that rather than leading to confusion with muscle cramping. Generally undigested, slush jiggling around in the stomach leading to stomach cramping & voiding.

I'd have argued that the issue was consuming more gels that you can absorb.

the 60g and 90g guidelines are just that - guidelines. Some are less, some are more. Most overeat anyways and have way too much.

I think you are adding 2 + 2 and getting 5 here TBH.

peter kern

BennyMul wrote: »

Thanks all,
I usually only take water training for the bike and run never take gels in training. during the marathon I did take a gel ever hour along with water every 3 miles.

So i may aim for every 30min, and see how it goes on the day.
what the worst that can happen

that sounds like a good plan to me. follow your marathon strategy as you know that will work rather than going for the unknown.

you sound like you have a slow metabolism the way you describe your marathon nutrition strategy. and not everybody needs a gel every 20min ;-)

shotgunmcos

Guys Ref: having 2*750ml bottles of carb drink on the bike - are you going to wash powerbar gels down with this?! PB gels are fairly sticky and need a good swig of water IMO. With a combo of PB gels and 1.5 litres of carby drink on the bike you will be gasping fo water by the run... particularly if the sun comes out

sconhome

tunney wrote: »

I'd have argued that the issue was consuming more gels that you can absorb.

the 60g and 90g guidelines are just that - guidelines. Some are less, some are more. Most overeat anyways and have way too much.

I think you are adding 2 + 2 and getting 5 here TBH.

The general gist of my original post was what I would do and I was offering my opinion as a guide to the OP on fueling this kind of distance in the conditions applicable at the time of answering.

I switch to lighter more water based gels on the run to avoid any 'heaviness' in the stomach and with the water base it tends to help get the gel through to the intestine for absorption.

BennyMul

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Guys Ref: having 2*750ml bottles of carb drink on the bike - are you going to wash powerbar gels down with this?! PB gels are fairly sticky and need a good swig of water IMO. With a combo of PB gels and 1.5 litres of carby drink on the bike you will be gasping fo water by the run... particularly if the sun comes out

I have read about the problems with using a carb drink in conjunction with gels, and they do not mix well,
That why I was looking at a weak carb drink for one bottle and normal for the second, I may revise this.

Clum

I'll probably be slated for saying this but I train without gels and take on very little fuel on long cycles and runs. I go for more solid foods on the bike so might eat two cereal bars on a 4 hour cycle (but I'd also drink 1.5 litres of fluids). I don't take anything on a run shorter than 28km (not even water...unless it's mad hot).

I've been doing this for years but the most recent example is Tri An Mhi's Half Ironman distance CXIII just a few weeks back.

On the bike I had 750ml iso drink and 1 fig roll bar on the first lap (47km) then 750ml water and 1 oats and honey granola bar on the second lap (47km).

On the run (21km) I had half of a 250ml bottle of water with 1 gel around the 11km mark.

I finished strong with a 1.26 half marathon and didn't hit any wall or bonk or do any of that weird crap.

I ran the Dublin marathon last year in 2.52 taking on just 2 gels and drinking both sports drink and water whenever it was available.

When I did an ironman a couple of years ago I think I had 6 bars of various description while on the bike and 2 gels on the run. No idea what I drank but it was a lot.

The solid food is probably harder to digest than the gels but I've never had stomach cramps (I hope I haven't just jinxed Saturday's race!). Maybe I'd go faster if I took on more gels....but then again maybe I'd get sick all over the place if I took on more gels.

pgibbo

I think you've hit the nail on the head Clum - people need to find out what works for them. We're all very different and as mentioned earlier, it's guidelines that are generally communicated.

shotgunmcos

Yep what I've learned over the years is that I don't need half the fridge in my pockets going out fo r a3hour training ride or 2 hour run. I don't fuel either except for water.

On the day for a 5 hour race I'll trust that my glycogen store + a good top up breakfast wil cover most of the race. I'd imagine I'll need 600-800Kcals tops to see me home and the idea will be to getthese on board early.

Sip a bottle of Lucozade sport an hour before the race
1 PB gel before the swim washed down with a gulp of water.
4-5 PB gels diluted in a bottle of water that I'll take on the bike more than half of it in the first hour.
Sipping water from anothre bottle all the time.
1 PB gel about 40 minutes into the run with plenty of water.

Thats it approx 750Kcals

shotgunmcos

Charles Numerous Zeal wrote: »

1x500ml water mixed with Nuun - prior to race start
2x750ml of high 5 2in1 - 540kcals - both on bike
7x powerbar gels - 770kcals - 1 prior to swim, 3 bike and 3 run
1x nutrigrain bars - 120kcals - on bike

That is 1430kcals over 5hrs and 286kcals p/hour.

Overkill IMO :cool:

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Guys Ref: having 2*750ml bottles of carb drink on the bike - are you going to wash powerbar gels down with this?! PB gels are fairly sticky and need a good swig of water IMO. With a combo of PB gels and 1.5 litres of carby drink on the bike you will be gasping fo water by the run... particularly if the sun comes out

Maybe its just me but i find i don't need to chase the PB gels with anything. yes they are a bit more gluppy than others but i find them ok to take without water.

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Sip a bottle of Lucozade sport an hour before the race
1 PB gel before the swim washed down with a gulp of water.
4-5 PB gels diluted in a bottle of water that I'll take on the bike more than half of it in the first hour.
Sipping water from anothre bottle all the time.
1 PB gel about 40 minutes into the run with plenty of water.

Thats it approx 750Kcals

Not a fan of the bolded bit, how do you know how much you are taking in when diluted. You might get nothing for the first hour or vice versa, dilution roulette it should be called:)

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Overkill IMO :cool:

Not that much overkill i don't think. Nutrigrain bar to keep the hunger demons at bay and when you think of it over a third of my kcal intake is fluids. We shall see how we go.

Oryx

I'm trying new nutrition on Saturday. Give me a wide berth just in case it doesnt work out.

BennyMul

Thanks to everyone for the advice.
Followed the strategy pretty well,
1 gel 30min before the start with water, and a PB gel ever 30min or so on the bike washed down with a very weak high 5 drink, a second bottle with more concentrated mix.

I did have sever cramps on the run from the start, not sure if its related to the above, lack of solid food or just plain bad stomach muscles.

Did manage to get a high 5 gel down during the run.

I will need to start practicing this in training to get it correct, a bad plan to leave it to race day.