Last Luas Green Line Tram, Sunday nights

Boulevardier

I was shocked to find, on being dropped by a friend at Cherrywood just after 11 last night (Sunday) that I had missed the last Luas to town, and I barely got down to the main road in time for the last bus.

Has the Luas always stopped this early on Sunday night, or is this the result of some recent cutbacks in the service? Either way, it is pretty poor.

LXFlyer

They changed the times of the last trams inbound about two months ago due to low patronage and cost cutting. It was announced online, at stations, on posters and posted here.

Last LUAS times inbound are:

Green Line
Ex Brides Glen - 00:00 (Mon/Sat); 23:00 (Sunday)

Red Line
Ex Tallaght - 00:00 (Mon/Sat); 23:00 (Sunday)
Ex Saggart - 23:50 (Mon/Sat); 22:50 (Sunday)

Last trams outbound remain 00:30 (Mon/Sat) and 23:30 (Sundays)

Incidentally given the last 145 inbound does not leave Kilmacanogue until 23:20 on Sundays I would suggest you still had some time to spare if you found out at just after 23:00.

Boulevardier

LX, do you know when the last inbound Green Luas used to run on Sundays?

In any case, I think that bringing forward the last departures of any bus or rail service, (as distinct from thinning out the frequency during the evening) is an appalling thing to do to travellers. No matter how low usage is, for anyone to miss a last departure is much more serious than having to wait longer between departures. On no account should Veolia, or any transport company, ever be allowed to bring forward a last departure time. It is a total betrayal of a public transport remit.

I did not make it to the main road until about 11.30 and the last 145 turned up about 11.40.

GarIT

Boulevardier wrote: »

LX, do you know when the last inbound Green Luas used to run on Sundays?

In any case, I think that bringing forward the last departures of any bus or rail service, (as distinct from thinning out the frequency during the evening) is an appalling thing to do to travellers. No matter how low usage is, for anyone to miss a last departure is much more serious than having to wait longer between departures. On no account should Veolia, or any transport company, ever be allowed to bring forward a last departure time. It is a total betrayal of a public transport remit.

I did not make it to the main road until about 11.30 and the last 145 turned up about 11.40.

You could say that about anything, in that case everything would be 24 hours. There has to be some point where they decide to take the profit levels importance before keeping every single person happy. Its not the responsibility for the service to be on time for you. Its up to you to be on time for the service. We would all love if everything ran whenever we needed it, but that just cant happen.

Losty Dublin

I believe that last Luas left at 23:30 on Sunday's on both lines, Bouvardier.

LXFlyer

Last trams were 23:30 inbound and outbound on Sundays, and 00:30 Monday/Saturday.

The last inbound trams were shifted back 30 minutes on both lines.

Boulevardier

Moving forward last times of service, even on Sunday nights, is an appalling thing to do. It is much worse than thinning out frequencies, because it leaves people completely stranded.

11pm is certainly not acceptable as a last departure time in a modern capital city.

In this instance, I was able bodied enough to get down to the main road in time for a bus, but had I been elderly or disabled I would have been f***ed.

As it is, Ireland has one of the worst public transport systems in Western Europe, and we have a long tradition of short-sigted cutbacks and half-measures, of which Luas has been a particularly glaring example.

bk

Yes, Dublin really should have a proper late night (24 hour) bus service.

We haven't really ever tried it here and no the night link isn't it.

We should have buses on the core routes, every 30 minutes, that stop at the normal bus stops in both directions and at the regular fare.

Just like in London and most other capital cities. Hell even places like Gydnia in Poland have 24 hour buses.

It really is a disgrace that we don't have this.

Losty Dublin

bk wrote: »

Yes, Dublin really should have a proper late night (24 hour) bus service.

We haven't really ever tried it here and no the night link isn't it.

We should have buses on the core routes, every 30 minutes, that stop at the normal bus stops in both directions and at the regular fare.

Just like in London and most other capital cities. Hell even places like Gydnia in Poland have 24 hour buses.

It really is a disgrace that we don't have this.

Considering that bus use is low on the core routes off peak, subvention is being cut back and supposedly profitable private Luas is cutting down it's hours, it's clear that the patronage for this isn't there, as well intended as it would be.

KD345

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Considering that bus use is low on the core routes off peak, subvention is being cut back and supposedly profitable private Luas is cutting down it's hours, it's clear that the patronage for this isn't there, as well intended as it would be.

I wouldn't be so sure. I certainly think an hourly service on routes like the 15, 25A, 41 and 46A would carry a good few people. 11.30 is too early for buses to stop.

What always strikes me is how the early morning outbound departures on routes like the 7, 66/B, 41 and 46A are usually full to capacity. How do these people get into the city centre to catch these buses? Likewise, the early morning inbound services on the 39 and 40 etc are usually full. As someone who once worked early/late shifts, usually my only choice of transport was a taxi if finishing after Midnight or starting at 6am.

It would be good to trial even one route to see how it goes.

Losty Dublin

KD345 wrote: »

I wouldn't be so sure. I certainly think an hourly service on routes like the 15, 25A, 41 and 46A would carry a good few people. 11.30 is too early for buses to stop.

What always strikes me is how the early morning outbound departures on routes like the 7, 66/B, 41 and 46A are usually full to capacity. How do these people get into the city centre to catch these buses? Likewise, the early morning inbound services on the 39 and 40 etc are usually full. As someone who once worked early/late shifts, usually my only choice of transport was a taxi if finishing after Midnight or starting at 6am.

It would be good to trial even one route to see how it goes.

KD, I'm not saying that it's not a good idea. However, the reality is that too many of the flagship routes are busy at daytime yet they are running empty or close to it in the evening. The numbers out and around the city at night are not in the pubs/clubs or night shifts these days and I can't see it working out. The bare economics is what will stop this working, not the social worth of it.

Boulevardier

Losty, if last bus and Luas times are made earlier, then even fewer people will stay out, which means a continuing downward spiral which hits pubs and restaurant businesses as well as passengers.

In the last recession people would have driven home on Sunday nights from pubs and restaurants - obviously not such an acceptable option now.

bk

Losty Dublin wrote: »

KD, I'm not saying that it's not a good idea. However, the reality is that too many of the flagship routes are busy at daytime yet they are running empty or close to it in the evening. The numbers out and around the city at night are not in the pubs/clubs or night shifts these days and I can't see it working out. The bare economics is what will stop this working, not the social worth of it.

I'd love to know which core routes are running empty in the evenings? Any I'm on are quite busy off peak, at least a quarter full.

I would imagine there would be more then enough demand for at least one bus per hour on a few core routes.

As has been said, it would be good to trial it on least one core route. Gather real stats.

Losty Dublin

bk wrote: »

I'd love to know which core routes are running empty in the evenings? Any I'm on are quite busy off peak, at least a quarter full.

I would imagine there would be more then enough demand for at least one bus per hour on a few core routes.

As has been said, it would be good to trial it on least one core route. Gather real stats.

Well last night, a 77A from Cork St to Walkinstown at 21:40 and downstairs not even close to full and upstairs had just 2. Monday on a 13 from Drumcondra to town at 22:30 and I was one of 6. Last Tuesday I was on a 27 from Cork St to town and was one of 7 while a 29A I got at about 21:00 had a massive 5 on when I got off at the Howth Road. A run on a 16 to Santry at 08:00 last Friday saw plenty of spare seats on top.
Friday gone I was on a 150 into town at 18:00, only one on board with me was a woman, the granny and 2 kids while a 22:00 150 saw just 4 with one stop to take on 3 more en route. And this is what comes to mind.

Certainly, any off peak buses I'm on rarely sees more than a dozen skulls though granted there will be times when there are more. I can't speak of a 39A or 46A or other routes across town as a rule but that's what I'm seeing and hearing on my own regular routes.

As for running buses beyond the bewitching hour, the social need of buses to move people is not absolute here, in fairness. As it is the Nitelinks have lost passenger numbers big time in the last 5 years, thus making a mokcery of the need for it. Price aside, a core service isn't doing the numbers people reckon and the private busman with his lack of semi state overheads, unionised overpaid staff and inflexible work practices isn't willing to try it either, shock horror.

Boulevardier

Losty, anti-union people tend to be the same people who accept cuts to public transport, so your views do not hugely surprise me.

In any case, I think this thread has gone off topic. It ia about last Luas times or, a bit more broadly, bringing forward the times of LAST services.

Losty Dublin

Boulevardier wrote: »

Losty, anti-union people tend to be the same people who accept cuts to public transport, so your views do not hugely surprise me.

In any case, I think this thread has gone off topic. It ia about last Luas times or, a bit more broadly, bringing forward the times of LAST services.

I'm not anti union. What you will find are that the usual retorters hearing of any cut of public transport company or inflexibility tend to blame unions for whatever it is that they dislike and usually without a blink of the eye. It never strikes them or even you that nobody using the service at a late hour is to blame for it being culled.

LXFlyer

Again it is only the inbound LUAS services that changed. Outbound remains unaffected.

Given they changed them two months back and you are the only person to comment on it here (or on any similar forum), it does not appear to be affecting that many people.

I can't really see it changing back. All of the transport operators are under financial pressure and with government funding being further cut, they are trying to save money while minimising the impact on customers.

schemingbohemia

OP only has themselves to blame for not checking the times. It's not exactly a difficult thing to do. Fail to prepare etc..

bk

Losty Dublin wrote: »

As for running buses beyond the bewitching hour, the social need of buses to move people is not absolute here, in fairness. As it is the Nitelinks have lost passenger numbers big time in the last 5 years, thus making a mokcery of the need for it. Price aside, a core service isn't doing the numbers people reckon and the private busman with his lack of semi state overheads, unionised overpaid staff and inflexible work practices isn't willing to try it either, shock horror.

I believe the nite link is failing for a few reasons:

1) It is too expensive at €5, my taxi ride is only €10, it isn't worth the hassle of taking the nitelink. Specially if there are two of us. Making it the normal charge (e.g. €1.70 in my case) and I would definitely take it over a taxi.

2) It doesn't stop at the normal bus stops and doesn't pick you up on the way into town. I would definitely use it to head into town after hours, but not an option at the moment.

Normalise the service and I believe it would be much more successful and much more used.

If it can work in London and Gydnia (population 250,000) then why can't it work in Dublin?

Do you not agree that it would be worth trying the above on at least one busy core route to gauge demand?

Losty Dublin

bk wrote: »

I believe the nite link is failing for a few reasons:

1) It is too expensive at €5, my taxi ride is only €10, it isn't worth the hassle of taking the nitelink. Specially if there are two of us. Making it the normal charge (e.g. €1.70 in my case) and I would definitely take it over a taxi.

Would you be willing to wait up to an hour for your normal bus at night? What about the areas not close to a Night bus? Who is going to pay for it? And who exactly is going to use it? Entertainment venues and restaurants are struggling for business and are empty as a rule mid week while public transport passenger journeys have fallen, even at peak times. It will take a lot of normal charged fares to make good the cost of maintaining a night service, including staff and some extra buses to run these services. With subventions decreasing, the cost is something that must considered first and above all else. Would you wish for your fares to go up to cover what you will use at best 1-2 times a week?

bk wrote: »

2) It doesn't stop at the normal bus stops and doesn't pick you up on the way into town. I would definitely use it to head into town after hours, but not an option at the moment.

Nitelink is a get them out of town ASAP service. Slow it down and it's turnaround and attractiveness lessens.

bk wrote: »

Normalise the service and I believe it would be much more successful and much more used.

If it can work in London and Gydnia (population 250,000) then why can't it work in Dublin?

I doubt if either city you quote is paying for this service out of fares alone or willingly doing it to make cash, are they?

bk wrote: »

Do you not agree that it would be worth trying the above on at least one busy core route to gauge demand?

Not really given the current market and economic climate, no it isn't. Maybe when the Network Direct routes have all sat in it might get a punt but it will not cover it's costs and current cutbacks in transport services tell us that.

bk

Well it says it all to me that you aren't even willing to try just one route as a trial for a few months. Afraid it might actually work!!

I wonder if you might be a taxi driver

To answer some of your questions. I'd rather it be every 30 minutes. However even every hour would be fine as long as it was clock face leaving the city center and you could use RTPI outside the city. Then you could just wait in the pub/restaurant a little longer, not a major deal.

The cost of running such a service shouldn't be so great. After all they already have the buses, which is the biggest cost to DB. You then just have the fuel and wage costs. The drivers could even be contracted out to keep the wage bill down.

You say pubs and restaurants are empty mid week. First of all not true, I frequently go out in Dublin mid week and while obviously it is quieter then the weekend, it can still be very busy. I actually perfer going out mid week. I would call most places nicely busy mid week, versus ridiculously and uncomfortably overcrowded at the weekends.

But perhaps part of the reason for it being quieter is that it is so bloody expensive to get into and out of town at night. If you over a service like this, perhaps it would bust these businesses and even the whole economy a little bit.

Yes perhaps such a service would need to be subsidised, while I'm not convinced that it does and I think it should be trialled without a subsidy first, even if it needs a subsidy, then I think it is worth it.

A modern European capital doesn't just close down at 11:30. Many people work shifts in call centers at the likes of Google, Facebook, etc. This really should be a service we offer, it is long overdue in a modern society.

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Not really given the current market and economic climate, no it isn't.

I can't understand people's unwillingness to try improvements in public transport. If we said no the everything then nothing would ever happen.

OP, if you think the last Luas times on a Sunday are appalling then have a look at times on the Maynooth line... last train outbound 20:50, last train inbound 21:40!

Losty Dublin

bk wrote: »

Well it says it all to me that you aren't even willing to try just one route as a trial for a few months. Afraid it might actually work!!

I wonder if you might be a taxi driver

I actually was a taxi driver so I saw first hand how quiet places are, especially mid week. That's part of why I doubt that it will work; because of the low demand for public transport late on in the day.

bk wrote: »

To answer some of your questions. I'd rather it be every 30 minutes. However even every hour would be fine as long as it was clock face leaving the city center and you could use RTPI outside the city. Then you could just wait in the pub/restaurant a little longer, not a major deal.

I'm sure a pub or cafe and their staff will gladly let you wait after their closing time another 30 or 40 minutes so a drinker can wait on their bus indoors :rolleyes:

bk wrote: »

The cost of running such a service shouldn't be so great. After all they already have the buses, which is the biggest cost to DB. You then just have the fuel and wage costs. The drivers could even be contracted out to keep the wage bill down.

To do a 00:00-06:00 public service, it will require a night shift of drivers to operate these service as this will be an effective working day for them. It will also take buses onto the road when they normally are serviced, washed, fueled, repaired etc so some additional buses will be required for same. Unless you suggest DB reallocate resources for a dedicated night service; this means that they cancel daytime services to run these services. I can't see either happening anytime too soon.

bk wrote: »

You say pubs and restaurants are empty mid week. First of all not true, I frequently go out in Dublin mid week and while obviously it is quieter then the weekend, it can still be very busy. I actually perfer going out mid week. I would call most places nicely busy mid week, versus ridiculously and uncomfortably overcrowded at the weekends.

I don't see too many of these people out when I am out. Even so, are these people out till 1,2,3AM+ a few nights a week? I'm sorry to say, they don't. Those that are are very much the minority.

bk wrote: »

But perhaps part of the reason for it being quieter is that it is so bloody expensive to get into and out of town at night. If you over a service like this, perhaps it would bust these businesses and even the whole economy a little bit.

And here we were all thining it was due to work the next da, shortage of cash and people not being in employment where in actual fact it's Dublin Bus who is to blame? :rolleyes: By all means we'd all like to get in and out cheaper but it need to be all singing all dancing to work and a skeleton service isn't going to do that.

bk wrote: »

Yes perhaps such a service would need to be subsidised, while I'm not convinced that it does and I think it should be trialled without a subsidy first, even if it needs a subsidy, then I think it is worth it.

What fare structure should it adhere to? Conventional DB rates which are subsidised to some extent or unsubsidised rates which will be dearer? Either way, me and you have to cough up for it, either directly (Cash) or indirectly (Tax).

bk wrote: »

A modern European capital doesn't just close down at 11:30. Many people work shifts in call centers at the likes of Google, Facebook, etc. This really should be a service we offer, it is long overdue in a modern society.

Are all the pubs and clubs in other European cities full 7 nights a week? No, they aren't as a rule. And how do they have a night service? By paying for the public transport in the first place, which isn't happening here. The sad bone of it is that the economics isn't able to back it up, come what may.

Boulevardier

I'm afraid that Dublin lags behind every other capital city in Europe, and this is due almost entirely to the attitudes enunciated by Losty and LXflyer and shared by our decision-making elite.

The sad fact is that Irish people don't believe in public transport. We don't believe in proper subventions or proper transport capital projects like the underground connector - instead we spend the money on motorways.

Leo Varadkar is part of this school of thought, and that is one reason why services and subventions have been decimated. Another reason, as LXflyer correctly observes, is that we tend to accept these cuts without protest or demur.

Losty Dublin

Boulevardier wrote: »

I'm afraid that Dublin lags behind every other capital city in Europe, and this is due almost entirely to the attitudes enunciated by Losty and LXflyer and shared by our decision-making elite.

What attitude is this of us two, can I ask?

LXFlyer

Boulevardier wrote: »

I'm afraid that Dublin lags behind every other capital city in Europe, and this is due almost entirely to the attitudes enunciated by Losty and LXflyer and shared by our decision-making elite.

The sad fact is that Irish people don't believe in public transport. We don't believe in proper subventions or proper transport capital projects like the underground connector - instead we spend the money on motorways.

Leo Varadkar is part of this school of thought, and that is one reason why services and subventions have been decimated. Another reason, as LXflyer correctly observes, is that we tend to accept these cuts without protest or demur.

What attitude? Eh, I don't drive! I use public transport everywhere I go. I do make full use of my smartphone to check bus/rail/LUAS times and live information. RTPI has really transformed the service and makes getting around far easier!

However, I'm also a realist. The country is next to broke and with government withdrawing subventions further, even providing the normal services is going to be a stretch. Coming up with all these wonderful ideas for night time transport (while admirable) is not going to work as no one is going to pay for them to operate economically. Charging normal fares is not going to come close to covering the costs. If there was such a vast market for them, then the private operators would be in there like a shot. But they aren't. They did try it many years ago and disappeared as fast as they came.

The changes LUAS made, while disappointing, will not affect very many people in the greater scheme of things - it is only finishing 30 minutes earlier in the inbound direction only. The outbound service is retained. They obviously looked at the passenger numbers first and decided that the impact would be fairly minimal. I genuinely don't think it is that great a deal.

I don't accept your general statement that services have been decimated. LUAS cut 30 minutes off late night inbound services. Big deal. The Dublin Bus Network Direct changes should have happened years ago. There was far too much overcapacity on the network with mass duplication of routes and services, buses travelling around half-empty (or empty totally), and totally uncoordinated schedules!!! The leaner network is one that can now be built upon - and I am noticing more people on the buses of late.

However, you are totally correct in one assertion - that most people in Ireland are car-centric. And that is not going to change for some considerable time, no matter what you hope for unfortunately.

Boulevardier

I mean too accepting of cuts, too skeptical about ideas to improve things and too pessimistic in outlook.

However, perhaps it was not fair of me to lump you in with the likes of Sean Barrett or leo Varadkar. Sorry for that.

GarIT

Is the LUAS a public or private service? I presume it is public. If so you should try sending an email to the department of transport and ask if they are willing to test a night service.

Losty Dublin

Boulevardier wrote: »

I mean too accepting of cuts, too skeptical about ideas to improve things and too pessimistic in outlook.

However, perhaps it was not fair of me to lump you in with the likes of Sean Barrett or leo Varadkar. Sorry for that.

LX and I would very much want more services overall for public transport. However, we also see the other side of the fence where services are run and costing a lot of money and sooner or later, something has to give. If the DoT subvented the companies more then later and additional services would be realistic; until then it's a case of cutting the cloth to measure.

@GarIT; Luas is privately operated and maintained but it is publicly owned and built by the RPA and CIE before them.

GarIT

Has anyone here thought about the amount of trouble there would be if the LUAS ran late? Its bad enough on the LUAS at 10pm, could you imagine 2:30am. They could probably need armed security as well as cleaners on every tram.

Boulevardier

Losty or LX, can you tell me if you have any ideas for changes to Dublin's public transport, which you consider feasible, other than those which are being implemented?