Dog with constant diarrhea

Ms Tootsie

Our little six month old soft coated wheaten keeps getting diarrhea. When he first got it the vet thought he had eaten something ion the garden, perhaps a slug or something, then it turned out he actually had worms! The poor thing had such a bad dose of them he vomited them up(!) so we seriously doubt that he was wormed before we got him.

To sort the problem the first time round the vet put him on some prescrition dog food and after a few weeks the problem cleared up and we were told we could put him back on his normal dry food. However the problem came back again a week or so later. Having wormed him twice (to be on the safe side) we thought he might not be taking to his food. We switched him onto a diet of plain rice, cooked well with some smal amounts of ham until the runny poop cleared up. After this we slowly started reintroducing dog food into his diet (multivet this time on the reccomendation of the pet shop). After just over a week he was fully back on dog food but now the problem has returned after a few days. We did get him groomed so we were thinking it might have been an unpleasent experience for him but that was on Saturday and the poop is still not solid. Thankfully unlike with the worms, he is putting on some weight but very slowly.

He is much happier than when the problem was caused by the worms but I am worried that it cannot be good for his health, plus cleaning up after him is quite difficult when it is like this. Could dry dog food be the problem?


I meant to say, we are not over feeding him as we have been measuring out the food as well.

andreac

The dry food is obviously not agreeing with him. So you will prob have to try something else.

Could you keep him on a diet of chicken and rice and very slowly introduce the dry food, gradually increasing it over a week or two, if he still has the runs then its the dry food thats upsetting his tummy.

There are special prescription diets you can get.

Who makes Multivet? Never heard of it...

Ms Tootsie

Sorry my spelling was way off on that one! It's Multifit. http://www.maxizoo.ie/multifit.html

Also we did reintroduce it slowly (over a week and a half) and the problem stayed at bay for another week or so. Could he have food allergies?

meoklmrk91

Could be a lot of things, the main thing I would say is that he has had a lot of food changes in the last while, old food to prescription diet, prescription diet back to old food, old food to rice and ham, rice and ham to multivet. This in itself can cause upset tummy as dietary changes should be done very gradually.

I would highly doubt he has an issue with dry food itself, I would say that it more likely a food allergy, for instance if a dog was allergic to say wheat, it wouldn't matter what brand you changed to you would still have an issue as long as there was wheat in it. Owners who have dealt with food allergies could advise you better on how to figure out if a food allergy is at play, I believe there is a blood test that can be done but it can be quiet expensive. Maybe look at the ingredients lists of each of the foods and work out what they have in common.

Ah multifit, that is one of maxizoos own brands, not great ingredients I am afraid, no better than your supermarket petfood i.e pedigree, Bakers etc. Very low quality, what was the original food that he was on?

andreac

Sorry to be blunt, but that food looks rubbish, with id say, very low grade ingredients which could be causing the problem.

Those types of food have very bad quality ingredients., usually with high grain content which isnt good for dogs and can cause problems.

Im sure if you look at the ingredients the first ones will be Meat or Animal derivitives which is crap basically. Meat should always be the first ingredient.

It even says comparable to Pedigree which is awful stuff...

Try sourcing a better quality food which is better all round for your dog.

paultf

kaza2710 wrote: »

Our little six month old soft coated wheaten keeps getting diarrhea.

My dog had a similar problem recently. I followed these instructions for first 5/6 days with no joy:
http://burnspet.co.uk/petcare/burns-pet-nutrition-advice/digestive-problems.html

At the time Darby had another problem and was getting a ultrasound. They checked his gut and it was full of gas. Darby had a gut infection and went on a course of antibotics for 10 days. I kept him on homecooked chicken & rice during this time. The tablets worked straight away. First morning utility room floor clean. Darby is back to his normal self now.

As andreac said it could be the food. Explained a bit here:
http://burnspet.co.uk/petcare/burns-pet-nutrition-advice/dietary-intolerance.html

Ms Tootsie

andreac wrote: »

Sorry to be blunt, but that food looks rubbish, with id say, very low grade ingredients which could be causing the problem.

Those types of food have very bad quality ingredients., usually with high grain content which isnt good for dogs and can cause problems.

Im sure if you look at the ingredients the first ones will be Meat or Animal derivitives which is crap basically. Meat should always be the first ingredient.

It even says comparable to Pedigree which is awful stuff...

Try sourcing a better quality food which is better all round for your dog.

No worries about being blunt at all. We noticed on the first option we were giving him the first ingrediant was cereals so I figured that this was contributing to the problem. We explained this to the pet shop and said we wanted a more meat based dog food, she said this food has a very high meat content and should alleviate the problem if the dog food was the cause.

andreac

What does the bag say? What way are the ingredients listed?

Ms Tootsie

andreac wrote: »

What does the bag say? What way are the ingredients listed?

I dont have it to hand now as I am in work but I can check when I get home.

meoklmrk91

kaza2710 wrote: »

No worries about being blunt at all. We noticed on the first option we were giving him the first ingrediant was cereals so I figured that this was contributing to the problem. We explained this to the pet shop and said we wanted a more meat based dog food, she said this food has a very high meat content and should alleviate the problem if the dog food was the cause.

If that is what you asked for then they gave you the opposite, the biggest problem with low quality foods is that there is absolutely no way for you to know what is actually in them. When is says cereals, what is that to mean, you are covering a massive range of foods there. The reason they don't list what is actually in it is because they source whatever they can as cheap as they can so the recipe is forever changing. I had my own dog on multifit as a pup before I knew any better, he actually stopped growing, I changed his food and he sprouted up, his coat was shiny and healthy, the benefits were endless.

Here is the ingredients list for a generic dog food which you buy in the supermarket, garage forecourt etc.
Grain, meat and animal by-products, vegetable by-products, oils & fat, minerals

Now as you can see it is all very broad, nothing specific, grain, which could be any type of grain, all very poor quality ingredients.

Here is the ingredients list for Burns Lamb and Brown Rice:
Brown Rice (min. 54%), Lamb Meal (min. 21%), Oats, Peas, Sunflower Oil, Seaweed, Vitamins and Minerals

As you can see it's all in plain english, none of this Cereals BS, it's Rice and Oats etc.

And there are lots of foods out there like it which are much better for your dog and will be cheaper for you in the long run because A, You don't have to feed as much because the food is higher quality and B, you will be saving yourself money from not taking him back and forth to the vet.

Ms Tootsie

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

If that is what you asked for then they gave you the opposite, the biggest problem with low quality foods is that there is absolutely no way for you to know what is actually in them. When is says cereals, what is that to mean, you are covering a massive range of foods there. The reason they don't list what is actually in it is because they source whatever they can as cheap as they can so the recipe is forever changing. I had my own dog on multifit as a pup before I knew any better, he actually stopped growing, I changed his food and he sprouted up, his coat was shiny and healthy, the benefits were endless.

Here is the ingredients list for a generic dog food which you buy in the supermarket, garage forecourt etc.
Grain, meat and animal by-products, vegetable by-products, oils & fat, minerals

Now as you can see it is all very broad, nothing specific, grain, which could be any type of grain, all very poor quality ingredients.

Here is the ingredients list for Burns Lamb and Brown Rice:
Brown Rice (min. 54%), Lamb Meal (min. 21%), Oats, Peas, Sunflower Oil, Seaweed, Vitamins and Minerals

As you can see it's all in plain english, none of this Cereals BS, it's Rice and Oats etc.

And there are lots of foods out there like it which are much better for your dog and will be cheaper for you in the long run because A, You don't have to feed as much because the food is higher quality and B, you will be saving yourself money from not taking him back and forth to the vet.

Thanks so much for this advice. So Burns pet food is one to try then.

meoklmrk91

kaza2710 wrote: »

Thanks so much for this advice. So Burns pet food is one to try then.

Well that all depends on your budget really, I love burns I think it's great but I can't afford it any more so I am going to switch to a slightly cheaper but still good quality brand. The best thing to do it start as you mean to go on, by something that you can afford long term so that you won't have to go switching foods again a few months down the line and risk another upset tummy. I was just using Burns as an example.

Ms Tootsie

I just had a look online and seen what you mean, it is very expensive.

Any other brand reccomendations to try?

meoklmrk91

kaza2710 wrote: »

I just had a look online and seen what you mean, it is very expensive.

Any other brand reccomendations to try?

Off the top of my head Arden Grange, James Wellbeloved, Taste of the Wild, and Champion from dogfooddirect.ie, particularly the premium plus range, that is what I plan on putting my dog on in the next few weeks, a friend has her dogs on it and she swears by it, I've heard lots of good things about it.

Ms Tootsie

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

Off the top of my head Arden Grange, James Wellbeloved, Taste of the Wild, and Champion from dogfooddirect.ie, particularly the premium plus range, that is what I plan on putting my dog on in the next few weeks, a friend has her dogs on it and she swears by it, I've heard lots of good things about it.

Thank you so much for all of this!!

andreac

The thing about better food is that it might cost a bit more at the start, but you have to feed less of it so it doesnt always work out dearer as it lasts longer.

meoklmrk91

kaza2710 wrote: »

Thank you so much for all of this!!

Best of luck with it, hope it all works out for you and your doggie is feeling better soon!

ryanodell27

It can be caused by allergies, milk, worms, spoiled food. You should avoid indigestible food in your dog's diet because this type of food may cause excessive gas or diarrhea. The best dog foods for diarrhea are the foods that are among the most easily digested like blend meat and eggs, carbohydrates and fillers, water etc.

lorebringer

Kaza2710 - I have battled with one of mine with a sensitive belly, countless bags of food later and we have found a select few that work well.

Firstly, a few good brands that may also suit your dog (every dog is different and what suits one may not suit another even if is as a good brand) are Royal Canin (a bit pricey), Arden Grange, Select Gold, Burns, James Wellbeloved, Red Mills Leader Supreme, Whites (I think they changed their name to Creavans - only available online), Best for my Dog and loads more (I could be here all day). I, personally, have found Burns and James Wellbeloved good for a sensitive belly - and not the most expensive foods (about €55 per 15kg bag, but this would last you ages).

If no other foods work, my be all and end all food is Royal Canin Sensitivity control (veterinary food). Works wonders but is very expensive. I had to feed one of mine this on and off for years to sort out her belly problems and I still feed it to one of the dogs if they have a stomach infection or something. I have not found a food better for clearing up diarrhoea, and they can be kept on it for life (unlike quite a few of the prescription foods for stomach problems). I have always fed the dry kibble but it comes in both wet and dry foods. I would try other foods first though, because, as I said, it is incredibly expensive and some vets don't stock it (although, they usually will get it in if you ask).

tazwaz

hi op, when we first got our dog i had him on hill because my vet sold it, it didnt agree with him so i put him on burns, his poo was v runny so i put im on james welbeloved and have never looked back. its slightly more expensive than regular supermarket bags but lasts so much longer.

Ms Tootsie

Hi guys

Back again! Ok so following the advice here (and on the Burns website for introducing new dog food) I thought all was going well until this morning when the little guy went out back and the runny poop is back not completely but the log shaped solids are defo on the way out (sorry for the graphic imaging here).

Anyways when I first posted on the thread back on the 23rd of May, I followed the advice and didnt feed him for a day, plenty of water but no food. Then the next day I fed him cooked rice and chicken. The improvment was almost straight away and I kept him on this diet until the poop had totally firmed up. The odd time I used pork instead of chicken but both worked well.

About two weeks ago we started him on Champion Premiem Plus (the puppy range). The list of ingrediants is:

• Chicken (Human Grade) (minimum 34%),
• Rice (minimum 20%),
• Barley, Maize, Chicken Fat,
• Corn Gluten Meal, Linseed,
• Minerals, Yeast, Vitamins and minerals,
• SC1-1077, Chicory Derived Inulin,
• Tocopherol Rich Extracts of Natural Origin.

Started off with just 3 kibbles, the next day when there was still no affect I moved it up to 4 kibbles and so on and so forth. I still havent completely switched over as I am very caucious that introducing it too quickly will cause the problem to come back. I am not feeding him rice with a small handful (maybe 50ish) kibble bits in each meal and this morning I noticed the problem seems to be coming back.

It cannot be the quality of the food can it? Any suggestions as to what I should try next or what ingrediant would be the most likely to be causing the trouble?

Thanks so much.

EDIT

I should also mention my OH is away with work the last few days, first time he has been away from the dog and the pup is very attached to him. Could this be the problem?

meoklmrk91

kaza2710 wrote: »

Hi guys

Back again! Ok so following the advice here (and on the Burns website for introducing new dog food) I thought all was going well until this morning when the little guy went out back and the runny poop is back not completely but the log shaped solids are defo on the way out (sorry for the graphic imaging here).

Anyways when I first posted on the thread back on the 23rd of May, I followed the advice and didnt feed him for a day, plenty of water but no food. Then the next day I fed him cooked rice and chicken. The improvment was almost straight away and I kept him on this diet until the poop had totally firmed up. The odd time I used pork instead of chicken but both worked well.

About two weeks ago we started him on Champion Premiem Plus (the puppy range). The list of ingrediants is:

• Chicken (Human Grade) (minimum 34%),
• Rice (minimum 20%),
• Barley, Maize, Chicken Fat,
• Corn Gluten Meal, Linseed,
• Minerals, Yeast, Vitamins and minerals,
• SC1-1077, Chicory Derived Inulin,
• Tocopherol Rich Extracts of Natural Origin.

Started off with just 3 kibbles, the next day when there was still no affect I moved it up to 4 kibbles and so on and so forth. I still havent completely switched over as I am very caucious that introducing it too quickly will cause the problem to come back. I am not feeding him rice with a small handful (maybe 50ish) kibble bits in each meal and this morning I noticed the problem seems to be coming back.

It cannot be the quality of the food can it? Any suggestions as to what I should try next or what ingrediant would be the most likely to be causing the trouble?

Thanks so much.

EDIT

I should also mention my OH is away with work the last few days, first time he has been away from the dog and the pup is very attached to him. Could this be the problem?

Such a pity it didn't work, maybe it might be a better idea to take him to the vet and get him allergy tested and find out what it is definitively that is causing the issue instead of trying a different food. You have a tried a good few already and it may be cheaper in the long run to get the test rather than changing foods.

tk123

kaza2710 wrote: »

It cannot be the quality of the food can it? Any suggestions as to what I should try next or what ingrediant would be the most likely to be causing the trouble?

The rice/maize/barley could be the problem - dogs are often allergic to cereals as I learnt with my guy when he developed an intolerance to rice. He had really bad runs but switching to a cereal free food solved the problem. There's a good few cereal free options - eg James Wellbeloved, Wafcol, Happy Dog Supreme - we settled on JWB and it made a HUGE difference. My heart wasn't in feeding dry food any more so I've since switched him to barf/raw as it suits him best but he gets the JWB as training treats.
Another thing you could try is a probiotic paste - Diarsanyl/ProKolin/Canikur etc. I'm not sure if your vets will sell it to you OTC without seeing the dog but I used to get Diarsanyl on vetuk and always had a tube of it spare on the off change he'd get an upset tummy. He hasn't had one since we switched to cereal free/raw thank god

byhookorbycrook

Could he be coeliac-seriously?What age was he taken from the bitch?

Ms Tootsie

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Could he be coeliac-seriously?What age was he taken from the bitch?

We got him just after he turned 15 weeks old. We were assured that he was suitably old enough at that point.

Ms Tootsie

tk123 wrote: »

The rice/maize/barley could be the problem - dogs are often allergic to cereals as I learnt with my guy when he developed an intolerance to rice. He had really bad runs but switching to a cereal free food solved the problem. There's a good few cereal free options - eg James Wellbeloved, Wafcol, Happy Dog Supreme - we settled on JWB and it made a HUGE difference. My heart wasn't in feeding dry food any more so I've since switched him to barf/raw as it suits him best but he gets the JWB as training treats.
Another thing you could try is a probiotic paste - Diarsanyl/ProKolin/Canikur etc. I'm not sure if your vets will sell it to you OTC without seeing the dog but I used to get Diarsanyl on vetuk and always had a tube of it spare on the off change he'd get an upset tummy. He hasn't had one since we switched to cereal free/raw thank god

Daft question but would normal home cooked rice fall into the cereal group? I am just wondering because if so once feed him home cooked rice he has no problems at all.

Love the tip on the paste, it might be something good to have about the house even when we get him sorted.

Also we tried him with raw meat (my gran was a bit fan of raw food for dogs and she had countless dogs in her lifetime) but he won't touch the stuff. I find I have to boil the meat for a bit (beyond strange) but it's very time consuming as I was cooking it as needed as I wouldn't expect him to eat food that was maybe sitting out for more than 2 or 3 days.

ABajaninCork

What rice are you giving the dog? Brown rice is usually better for them than normal long grain...

Have you tried a little white fish OP? Tesco's do a bag of the value fish for about E3.50? I usually whizz a fillet in the mic for about 5 mins with a little water and flake it into a little cooked brown rice. Firms up the stools nicely...

DBB

Kaza, re the raw meat, all of my dogs turned their noses up at raw meat when I changed over almost 2 years ago... Hard to credit that any dog would, but they do! So I started cooking it very lightly, and indeed it has been shown that dogs prefer the taste of cooked meat! Cooking the bejayzus out of it defeats the purpose of changing diet in the first place, so try cooking it as little as possible. With time, i've weaned my crew onto raw, but still they have days where they walk away from raw, then gobble it up after I cook it!
There are some really good recent threads here about changing a tummy-sensitive dog onto a raw diet, which I know from experience works really well. The food you've been giving your dog contains several ingredients which set off reactions in many dogs... Indeed even rice sets some off! To answer another poster, I think it's reasonable to assume that all dogs are, to some extent or another, coeliacs. They are simply not designed to digest cereals, and the vegetable component of their diet should be pureed or cooked in order for them to digest it.

falabo

andreac wrote: »

The thing about better food is that it might cost a bit more at the start, but you have to feed less of it so it doesnt always work out dearer as it lasts longer.

and less visits to the vet

Assassins Creed

kaza2710 wrote: »

Daft question but would normal home cooked rice fall into the cereal group? I am just wondering because if so once feed him home cooked rice he has no problems at all. QUOTE]

Wonder if you continue to feed a small amount of rice with the normal kibble, would it sort out the problem !

DogsFirst

Hey Kaza,

I know about dicky dog tummies. Have a read of this, use to give it out to guide dog pup owners.

Diarrhoea in dogs
Diarrhoea is the body ridding the gastrointestinal tract of toxins. The gut doesn't like something going in. There are many causes including parasites such as Guardia or some form of worm, the overuse of antibiotics and stress, but by far the most common cause is their food. Tackling the food will right 9/10 recurring diarrhoea sufferers.

Should your dog have diarrhoea (more than once, allow for the brief, spontaneous and unexplainable accidents!) the very first step, as in us, is to stop putting food in. A simple stomach bug can be cleared up with 24hrs starvation for an adult dog or 12hrs for a younger pup. will invariably clear it up. For recurring diarrhoea sufferers same applies, maybe even longer, purge those troubled intestines. Leave out plenty of fresh water during this time (with a half teaspoon of sugar and pinch of salt for electrolytes if you think they need them).

Your dog likely has a food intolerance. You may notice your dog is very thin and you “can't put the weight on him”. You may also notice the coat is dry and crispy. The coat and skin are the first indicators that the nutrition is wrong as it takes up to 50% of the protein your dog eats every day just to keep right, such is it's rate of turnover, and they are the first thing to benefit from the addition of decent, fresh protein (in the form of meat). You may also notice that their faeces periodically contains a mucousy film – this is fragile the lining of the intestines and may be accompanied by a little blood (especially in coeliacs), especially in young pups, as the intestines are rife with blood vessels very close to the surface.

The main culprits are cereal gluten (wheat / barley / rye), casein in milk, cooked protein (all dry foods and why "chicken" and "beef" are the number one and two allergens in dogs today! A carnivore allergic to meat like a cow being allergic to grass. It's the processed form they have been sensitised to, though this can translate to the fresh varieties....its complicated). Point is, not all of the above can be avoided on a dry food, while you might dodge the wheat, they'll put gluten in (makes up cheap protein content, totally indigestible), all dry foods are cooked so their little immune systems are not getting the break and the problem will re-emerge down the road. And his system is obviously under fire so they don't need the chemicals in dry food. This is why vets always prescribe chicken and rice (rice is fine, while a grain it's nearly totally hypoallergenic) while they "find the right food"!!!

You must remove these antigens from the diet. If you continue to feed the wrong foods, not only will the diarrhoea continue and coat and weight suffer, the delicate microflora balance of the gut will be disrupted. Tropical sprue may occur, which is the blooming of the wrong form of bacteria in the intestines. If you bring your dog to a vet at this point this sprue is often diagnosed as the issue causing the problem (and not your food antigens). You will then leave that surgery with an expensive course of intestinal biota-ruining antibiotics but without removing the issue, you will be back next month, just with a skinnier dog, worse coat and lighter wallet..

The most important step to fixing the issue is starving the dog and purging the system, as we would ourselves. For older dogs skip two feeds / one day, for pups one feed / half day. Like us, when we are sick we don't shove a load of food in top of it. The next few meals should be easy, chicken broth for example. Easy on the stomach and packed full of vital bits and pieces. While you set about discovering what caused it via an exclusion diet. That's coming next

DogsFirst

Exclusion diets
If your dog has been sensitized to a particular protein, say beef or chicken, it is likely that the damage is lasting. Consuming these proteins in the future will induce memory cells in your dog’s immune system, which will respond accordingly. Sometimes your dog can have a problem with cooked and not fresh chicken say, sometimes it's both, depending.

Should you wish to identify which protein is causing the issue you need to conduct an exclusion trial. This has a bad reputation as being a difficult and lengthy process but it takes only three weeks for your dog to recover on a diet void of an offending antigen (Harvey, 1993) so you should see encouraging results relatively quickly. If you are happy to never know which one exactly is the problem you do not need to conduct such a trial, simply remove gluten, cooked protein and chemical additives. However often the beleaguered immune system of your sensitised dog is now likely to be reacting to a number of allergens, such is the nature of the beast (as in humans, Vaughn 1941). You may need to know what else is going on.

To begin first move your dog to a good hypoallergenic diet. This means using an animal protein the dog has never encountered before, such as raw fish, raw turkey or a game animal. Of these I highly recommend oily fish (excellent protein and plenty of omega 3 to calm the system, win win). You may also include hypoallergenic items such as plain boiled rice and later some egg. This is a nice, simple, natural base, one that your dog should settle and thrive on. Importantly you should keep the dog on this for three weeks to settle his conditions. Every dog is different so do feel free to vary slightly. When you find something that works, stick to it.

This is a very grey area, what's working for one may not work for you. I know one very problematic, previously-dry-fed-now-senitised-TO-EVERYTHING dog, who's base is boiled rice and cooked chicken. But if it works it works.

Next you begin with either your meats or your veg. Lets say meat. After a nice period of calm challenge your dog with some raw beef. If beef or chicken is an antigen, sometimes the raw version is fine, being of slightly different form. Incorporate 5-10% raw beef in each meal for three weeks. Usually you will get your answer within two or three days (skin allergy, sore ears, itchy paws, diarrhoea, unsettled behaviour) but dietary intolerance is a sneaky bugger, it can take weeks. Once three weeks is up, try the cooked version. Three weeks on that completely remove beef and move on to chicken, then lamb. These are the three most likely meat anitgens. You never to challenge with gluten, just assume it's a problem.

It's as easy, and as difficult, as that. You can only challenge with one protein at a time. Which makes sense. If you shovel in two or three things that week and next week his bum's like a cat flap in the hoover dam, you won't know who to blame. And cut out all treats! I know I know but every time you meet your best friend you don't stuff a mars bar in his mouth.

Other Stuff About The Place That Will Help
Immodioum (safe for use in dogs, half tablet) may give your dog the breather for a day or two but that is all. Additions such as pineapple or wheat grass may help alleviate diarrhoea in the short term; low fat probiotic yoghurt will help recuperate the good bacteria in the intestines lost during diarrhoea. Herbs such as camomile and slippery elm are brilliant for stomach lining.

Ms Tootsie

DogsFirst wrote: »

Hey Kaza,

I know about dicky dog tummies. Have a read of this, use to give it out to guide dog pup owners.

Diarrhoea in dogs
Diarrhoea is the body ridding the gastrointestinal tract of toxins. The gut doesn't like something going in. There are many causes including parasites such as Guardia or some form of worm, the overuse of antibiotics and stress, but by far the most common cause is their food. Tackling the food will right 9/10 recurring diarrhoea sufferers.

Should your dog have diarrhoea (more than once, allow for the brief, spontaneous and unexplainable accidents!) the very first step, as in us, is to stop putting food in. A simple stomach bug can be cleared up with 24hrs starvation for an adult dog or 12hrs for a younger pup. will invariably clear it up. For recurring diarrhoea sufferers same applies, maybe even longer, purge those troubled intestines. Leave out plenty of fresh water during this time (with a half teaspoon of sugar and pinch of salt for electrolytes if you think they need them).

Your dog likely has a food intolerance. You may notice your dog is very thin and you “can't put the weight on him”. You may also notice the coat is dry and crispy. The coat and skin are the first indicators that the nutrition is wrong as it takes up to 50% of the protein your dog eats every day just to keep right, such is it's rate of turnover, and they are the first thing to benefit from the addition of decent, fresh protein (in the form of meat). You may also notice that their faeces periodically contains a mucousy film – this is fragile the lining of the intestines and may be accompanied by a little blood (especially in coeliacs), especially in young pups, as the intestines are rife with blood vessels very close to the surface.

The main culprits are cereal gluten (wheat / barley / rye), casein in milk, cooked protein (all dry foods and why "chicken" and "beef" are the number one and two allergens in dogs today! A carnivore allergic to meat like a cow being allergic to grass. It's the processed form they have been sensitised to, though this can translate to the fresh varieties....its complicated). Point is, not all of the above can be avoided on a dry food, while you might dodge the wheat, they'll put gluten in (makes up cheap protein content, totally indigestible), all dry foods are cooked so their little immune systems are not getting the break and the problem will re-emerge down the road. And his system is obviously under fire so they don't need the chemicals in dry food. This is why vets always prescribe chicken and rice (rice is fine, while a grain it's nearly totally hypoallergenic) while they "find the right food"!!!

You must remove these antigens from the diet. If you continue to feed the wrong foods, not only will the diarrhoea continue and coat and weight suffer, the delicate microflora balance of the gut will be disrupted. Tropical sprue may occur, which is the blooming of the wrong form of bacteria in the intestines. If you bring your dog to a vet at this point this sprue is often diagnosed as the issue causing the problem (and not your food antigens). You will then leave that surgery with an expensive course of intestinal biota-ruining antibiotics but without removing the issue, you will be back next month, just with a skinnier dog, worse coat and lighter wallet..

The most important step to fixing the issue is starving the dog and purging the system, as we would ourselves. For older dogs skip two feeds / one day, for pups one feed / half day. Like us, when we are sick we don't shove a load of food in top of it. The next few meals should be easy, chicken broth for example. Easy on the stomach and packed full of vital bits and pieces. While you set about discovering what caused it via an exclusion diet. That's coming next

Thank you so much for all this information! It helps to have everything explained so clearly. We have also noticed he has been putting on a bit of weight. one thing you mentioned in your post about the not gaining weight and the wirey coat was something we noticed. We have just got groomed and since we switched off the dry food initially a while back we noticed his hair was growing back shiney-er. I did think switching to a good brand with 'proper' 'decent' ingrediants would keep this up but a lot of these brands still have wheat.

We are pretty sure at this stage it is wheat that is the culprit. We have been feeding him boiled rice and potatoes with lightly (more just whizzed in the microwave because he wont touch it raw) chicken, beef and pork. In the last few days we have added in some carrots and gravy and peas, all with great success. Instantly the day after we switched him back on to this type of food (home made / cooked) we have seen an improvement. I think we are going to continue with this diet until we can afford to get the allergy test done so that we can confirm our suspicions that it is the wheat that is the problem and then perhaps find a dry food that doesnt contain wheat.

I am just concerned that we might either not be feeding him enough, or on the otherhand over feeding him. It is easier to gauge with dry food as instructions for size and weight are on the back. Any boardsies with advice on this would be greatly appreciated!! Thanks!!

DogsFirst

It's almost always the wheat, closely followed by processed beef / chicken. Everything else, flea bites, carpet cleaners, food chemicals, pollen etc is secondary to the consuming the others for a long period. Great news he's stabilising, it's such a relief isn't it? Poor little fella.

Very loose estimate would be 20% of his current body weight per week, or 3% of his body weight a day. But if you're looking to put weight on a skinny dog, or if he is growing, or if he's simply a nutter that won't stop running around the garden this number gets much higher. Remember fresh food has 75% water, dry food only 10%, so you'll be feeding at least 50% more fresh food than you would be of dry food. Stuff it in there if trying to get a bit of weight on. Lots of fresh meat, bitta cooked veg if you want, and boiled spuds (boil the rice / spuds in the left over water after steaming the veg to get all the good stuff in there, i thrown in a clove or two of garlic too, great antiox, great for immune system that is faltering, keeps mix fresher for longer in the fridge.

fenris

We have a similar issue with one of our dogs, he is a 4 year old Irish Setter and he gets runny and even bloody poo if he gets at anything containing wheat/maize, even the leftover crusts scavenged from the kids lunch boxes will trigger it.

We went through all of the steps in the posts above over the last few years and this is what works for us.

1. keep a couple of tins of Hills GI dog food for emergencies - if he gets a flare up we put him on the Hills GI for a couple of days until things firm up - approx half the recommended amount and nothing else except water. Normally takes about 2 - 3 days.

2. James Wellbeloved - the white fish one if possible for day to day feeding.

3. Normally two but sometimes three feeds a day, too much food runs through him, without the blood but messy none the less. If he is looking particularly scrawny we put an extra feed in until he is back to himself.

4. Raw chicken pieces, raw fish raw veg etc when we are cooking, but avoid the cooked food as there is normally something in there with flour that will set him off - yep including gravy or pasta.

5. Really control any other food or treats, once you have the dog sorted they seem to get extra sensitive to the allergen or maybe they just react more, but the little tidbit that would not have caused a visible problem when the dog was in exploding bottom land will have a big impact when his diet is sorted. I understand that this is the same for people with food intolerance.

You can't get it perfectly right all of the time, a dog is a dog and will actively scavenge while making no connection between a stolen crust of bread and feeling sorry for himself with a raw arse. You just have to be ready for it and get it under control as soon as you can.

He will look very skinny until you get this sorted, think of it the same way as a coeliac human has to eat and you will not be far off, for allergic reactions you don't need a lot of the allergen to set it off so a small amount may trigger what looks like a disproportionate response leading you to miss the culprit, e.g. the flour that is often used in gravy or sauces. Think kids with peanut allergies.

DogsFirst

Do you know many people with setters and how many do you think have this trouble? Poor old setters.

fenris

Sometimes I wonder how much of the Irish Setter reputation for being madder than a box of frogs is down to the doggy equivalent of feeding kids a steady diet of jelly tots!

Ms Tootsie

We have had our guy on a home cooked / raw diet for a few weeks now and not a runny poo in sight. He is still a bit funny with raw meat so I have been giving it a bit of a whizz in the microwave or boiling it (but not until it is fully cooked) and that seems to be working.

Normally we feed him twice a day consisting of chicken, pork or beef mixed in with boiled white rice or potatoes and carrots or celery. If we are having gravy with dinner I will add a bit of that as well. He loves eggs but the smell in the evenings when he is snoozing in the living room is a bit too much for us to handle so he will only be getting those as treats from now on

We are pretty sure it is the wheat that was the problem. Unfortunately we can't afford the allergy test at the minute (200e at our vet) so until we can be 100% sure that it is the wheat we have been avoiding giving him anything like bread or pasta. He is still able to eat treats (dog biscuits etc) which have that 'cereal ingrediant' but as we only use them for rewards and his toilet training he wouldnt get enough of them to really have an effect.

He will only eat raw meat from the bone so anytime I am in the butchers he has given me scraps and the little guys goes to town on them, try to give him something like that about twice a week and then on a Friday and Saturday night we will give him a pigs ear as a treat.

Good news is that I can already see the weight going on him which is a relief, it means there are no underlying problems causing him to be skinny other than a bit of a sensitive tummy.

The plan is to keep him on the home made diet for a few more months and then look for a dry dog food without wheat (someone on here mentioned James Wellbeloved the fish version) if that works then we will add a bit of dry food to the home made and keep it at a bit of a mix, with each of his feeds being 50% dry and 50% home made.

Thanks again for all your help guys!!

DogsFirst

Hi Kaza,

Great news, onwards and upwards.

I would definitely cut out those cereal based dog treats. Just a little gluten / casein / shrimp / peanut whatever your allergy is like being a little bit pregnant. You may not notice the big signs that he was displaying earlier but they will do damage as the immune system will freak each and every time it encounters the protein strands.

Those dry pet treats are absolute gack, made months ago, sitting open in pet stores for weeks or months, stale as bejaesus and crawling with dust mites. Far better buy a big dirty sack of gluten free sausages from a butchers outlet, cook them for 5 or 10mins in oven on trays and chop into discs. Freeze these in hadfuls in small ziplocs and keep one bag in fridge. Dirt cheap and dogs will break their back for them. I add a little diced garlic to mine when cooking for extra pizzazz.

And dry fed dogs with little experience of meat to sus at it initially, believe me it goes away!