Is it right to interrupt with the truth?

ShooterSF

Ok this isn't just religious per se but it is scepticism about spiritual powers and I guess it's built on peoples belief of an afterlife usually in Ireland anyway grounded in their christian upbringing, anyways.

I work in a country pub full of typical Irish ala carte catholics an a few surprising auld Atheists (a new one surprises me every month or so) and anytime religion comes up I vanish from the conversation (along with politics) as it's good business not to offend your punters but tonight I had something different. Two gents came in and started discussing how one could divinely summon answers to yes no questions through yokes that look like dowsing rods and/or spirit balls (which hang from some twine he got off me).
They were discussing in private but loud enough that I overheard plenty whilst carrying out my chores (it was a quiet night). My brain was screaming at me "IDEOMOTOR EFFECT!!" and I did consider saying something because I would like to be shown such a cool explanation to something I was mistaken about but then I thought I don't seem to think like most people and they might find it offensive.

In the end I didn't and even had a laugh with them as I locked up, they were last out, when they offered me a go on the dowsing rods and I declined politely. They laughed and said "Ah he think's we're nuts" and again I really wanted to say through kindness that I thought they were mis-educated, not nuts but again thought that might be considered rude.

So, if you were off for a few beers and you overheard this kind of conversation would you offer an explanation. If not would you if they then offered you a go on the devices? What if it was someone persuading a possibly very ill friend to go to a reiki healer or such?

swampgas

Short answer - No, unless you are specifically asked for an opinion.

Longish answer - I share your frustration, but who says you're right? Suppose you were an evangelical Christian and you wanted to interrupt because the only way to know things was through prayer and reading the Bible, should you interrupt then? Or if you thought that spirit balls are a crock, Tarot Cards are the way to go?

As the lads in question may have just been having a laugh, I'd say you did the right thing.

However, if this was being put forward as an alternative to proper medicine (your final "Reiki" question) I know I'd find it very hard to bite my tongue.

Last point - I wish my pub landlord knew what the ideomotor effect was :-)

celticcrash

Why were you afraid? Why not give it a little go?

mickoneill30

ShooterSF wrote: »

So, if you were off for a few beers and you overheard this kind of conversation would you offer an explanation. If not would you if they then offered you a go on the devices? What if it was someone persuading a possibly very ill friend to go to a reiki healer or such?

That's two different scenarios there. Popping in to a conversation with people I didn't know and giving my opinion is not the same to telling a friend that he should go to a doctor.

So for the conversation last night I would have done the same as you. For a sick friend I'd be asking him to visit a doctor at least. Whatever they did with a reiki healer then wouldn't bother me as long as they were getting whatever treatment the doctor provided. It's like when people go to hospitals for cancer treatment, get cured and then thank god

Rev Hellfire

Personally if I wasn't working in the place and the conversation was very public like you describe I'd consider it.

But if I was employed in the establishment I'd keep my nose out of anything which could be deemed contentious unless explicitly asked my opinion.

MagicMarker

Yeah as an employee I wouldn't. But as a fellow punter I might. It's a a pub, you're almost supposed to chat with strangers.

Turtwig

ShooterSF wrote: »

Ok this isn't just religious per se but it is scepticism about spiritual powers and I guess it's built on peoples belief of an afterlife usually in Ireland anyway grounded in their christian upbringing, anyways.

I work in a country pub full of typical Irish ala carte catholics an a few surprising auld Atheists (a new one surprises me every month or so) and anytime religion comes up I vanish from the conversation (along with politics) as it's good business not to offend your punters but tonight I had something different. Two gents came in and started discussing how one could divinely summon answers to yes no questions through yokes that look like dowsing rods and/or spirit balls (which hang from some twine he got off me).
They were discussing in private but loud enough that I overheard plenty whilst carrying out my chores (it was a quiet night). My brain was screaming at me "IDEOMOTOR EFFECT!!" and I did consider saying something because I would like to be shown such a cool explanation to something I was mistaken about but then I thought I don't seem to think like most people and they might find it offensive.

In the end I didn't and even had a laugh with them as I locked up, they were last out, when they offered me a go on the dowsing rods and I declined politely. They laughed and said "Ah he think's we're nuts" and again I really wanted to say through kindness that I thought they were mis-educated, not nuts but again thought that might be considered rude.

So, if you were off for a few beers and you overheard this kind of conversation would you offer an explanation. If not would you if they then offered you a go on the devices? What if it was someone persuading a possibly very ill friend to go to a reiki healer or such?

In all honesty it depends on the context. Not to overuse games of thrones but most people don't care about who rules what or what the history books say they just want to **** others,feed themselves and feel good about themselves for as long as possible. Such is the beauty of the human ego that everyone likes to think they're rational (especially when they become adults.) and reasonable. If they think you're either trying to demonstrate intellectual superiority or illustrate their lack of rationality then your intentions are irrelevant. All that matters is that you've arrogantly insulted someone's ego and that makes you all kinds of negative things.
Avoid insulting their ego though and the truth will nearly always lead to positive things.

All of this becomes irrelevant when you don't care about your individual relationship with the people at hand. Or the cost of the loss is negligible in contrast to the benefits and, most importantly, the self-preservation of your own ego.

As aside any of the regulars know what game theory suggests shooter should do? My guess is tell the truth everytime but I might be wrong. Whatever game theory suggests is most probably the most rational thing to do. So follow that.

joseph brand

If I was a fellow punter on a night out, I would jump at the chance to expose the type of nonsense you have mentioned.

As an employee, it's wiser to avoid the conversation.

Relevant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMtuWymUzz4

ShooterSF

Thanks all for the responses. I figured this thread might at least divide a few of us I'd like to respond to some points here.

celticcrash wrote: »

Why were you afraid? Why not give it a little go?

I was mad to give it a go but there was no way I could do that and then not offer my understanding of how it works. No chance at all.

swampgas wrote: »

Longish answer - I share your frustration, but who says you're right? Suppose you were an evangelical Christian and you wanted to interrupt because the only way to know things was through prayer and reading the Bible, should you interrupt then? Or if you thought that spirit balls are a crock, Tarot Cards are the way to go?

I agree with practically all your post but does the idea that the argument is evidence based rather than opinion or faith based not lend it more right to be stated? Again maybe I'm only able to think leke myself and I'm projecting that on others but I'm always curious about experiments I have never seen or heard of. Hard to decide but I love that I can't just look up the right thing to do in a book!

mickoneill30 wrote: »

That's two different scenarios there. Popping in to a conversation with people I didn't know and giving my opinion is not the same to telling a friend that he should go to a doctor.

So for the conversation last night I would have done the same as you. For a sick friend I'd be asking him to visit a doctor at least. Whatever they did with a reiki healer then wouldn't bother me as long as they were getting whatever treatment the doctor provided. It's like when people go to hospitals for cancer treatment, get cured and then thank god

Oh sorry that was exactly my idea to offer scalingly more difficult scenarios. Where, my own, working in the place is the easiest to answer (keep quiet) moving onto being another punter at a table beside them (or along the bar to be factual) to sitting next to two strangers (not a friend as you seem to have misread) having a loud private conversation in which one gives the other unsound medical advice. I was just trying to find a line in the sand so to speak (or should that be type?)

Of topic Joseph Brand thank you for the video it's one I missed of him on my 5 or 6 hour Randi youtube marathon (that sounds kinky). Ive actually gotten down my dusty hobbyist magic books again too!

FizzleSticks

This post has been deleted.

celticcrash

A few years back I worked as a gardener.
In this womans garden which we maintained, we were asked to plant a shrub in her back corner. Through out a couple of years we planted different shrubs
and all of them died off. We tested the PH of the soil and it was just your avarage soil with the avarage moisture content.
Than one day when we were cutting the grass the boss pull out these homemade dowsing rods (metal coat hangers in carboard holdings) and walks over the area where the shrubs die. To my amusement the rods cross over.
Yes I says to myself he must be doing this with his wrists. Have a go he says.
I take the rods, elbows in tight and carefully walk over the area and the rods cross to my amusement. I walk around the whole garden and the rods stay open, they only cross when I am over the area where the shrubs died.
I asked him why was this happening and he said there must be a well under that area. I dont know why they cross at this area but I am sure there is some scienctific answer.

celticcrash

celticcrash wrote: »

In this womans garden which we maintained, we were asked to plant a shrub in her back corner.

I'm sorry, I had to laugh...

celticcrash

bluewolf wrote: »

I'm sorry, I had to laugh...

At what

celticcrash

A lack of thorough investigation will allways leave a man in ignorance.

Turtwig

celticcrash wrote: »

A lack of thorough investigation will allways leave a man in ignorance.

Indeed, exploring and understanding the intrigue of the garden is important for every man.

mikhail

celticcrash wrote: »

A lack of thorough investigation will allways leave a man in ignorance.

There have been thorough investigations. Dowsing is about as efficatious as a ouija board, which is to say not. Both are based on the ideomotor effect.

Jernal

Jernal wrote: »

Indeed, exploring and understanding the intrigue of the garden is important for every man.

Especially with his water-seeking rod.

samina

I don't understand. If I'm misreading your post op I apologize but What possible reason would you have to interrupt with your version of the truth? If he were saying he could pull any woman in the bar would you feel so morally obligated to interrupt with the truth. I thought atheists were against preaching beliefs or lack of.

Turtwig

bluewolf wrote: »

Jernal wrote: »

Indeed, exploring and understanding the intrigue of the garden is important for every man.

Especially with his water-seeking rod.

Yes, but let's not forget health and safety. The rod and its test subject should be adequately protected from malignant forces, no matter how minute or insignificant the may appear, at all times during the investigative process.

celticcrash

I am still in ignorance here through my own lack of thorough investagation.
But at least I gave it a go. Not like the smug armchair generals who have a theory on everything and sneer because they think they know better.

celticcrash

celticcrash wrote: »

I am still in ignorance here through my own lack of thorough investagation.
But at least I gave it a go. Not like the smug armchair generals who have a theory on everything and sneer because they think they know better.

Is this because I laughed at the innuendo?

Sarky

I only just realised the last dozen posts were all about sex.

I don't care, I'm drunk and full of food.

mewso

samina wrote: »

I don't understand. If I'm misreading your post op I apologize but What possible reason would you have to interrupt with your version of the truth? If he were saying he could pull any woman in the bar would you feel so morally obligated to interrupt with the truth. I thought atheists were against preaching beliefs or lack of.

If scientific studies had been done with that specific bloke on his success rate with women and found that success rate to be no better than chance then you might have a point.

Kivaro

Sarky wrote: »

I only just realised the last dozen posts were all about sex.

I don't care, I'm drunk and full of food.

It's the new Godwin's Law.
Mainly seen on Atheist forums though.
Everything reverts back to sex.


Oh god, I just noticed the name of the law = "God" + "Wins".
We are all doomed, I tell ya, doomed.

How do I prostrate again?

Opticom

mikhail wrote: »

There have been thorough investigations. Dowsing is about as efficatious as a ouija board, which is to say not. Both are based on the ideomotor effect.

Just out of interest, does anyonw know, has the dowsing/ouija ideomotor effect been proven or is it a concept ?

Mark Hamill

Kivaro wrote: »

How do I prostrate again?

For a moment I thought you wrote "prostate" there.
Either way, you need to bend over, try your best to unclench and think happy thoughts.

robindch

Opticom wrote: »

Just out of interest, does anyone know, has the dowsing/ouija ideomotor effect been proven or is it a concept ?

It's been demonstrated many times and it's a standard technique for stage "psychics" and magicians.

ShooterSF

celticcrash wrote: »

A few years back I worked as a gardener.
In this womans garden which we maintained, we were asked to plant a shrub in her back corner. Through out a couple of years we planted different shrubs
and all of them died off. We tested the PH of the soil and it was just your avarage soil with the avarage moisture content.
Than one day when we were cutting the grass the boss pull out these homemade dowsing rods (metal coat hangers in carboard holdings) and walks over the area where the shrubs die. To my amusement the rods cross over.
Yes I says to myself he must be doing this with his wrists. Have a go he says.
I take the rods, elbows in tight and carefully walk over the area and the rods cross to my amusement. I walk around the whole garden and the rods stay open, they only cross when I am over the area where the shrubs died.
I asked him why was this happening and he said there must be a well under that area. I dont know why they cross at this area but I am sure there is some scienctific answer.

See the ideomotor effect explains that. You both I assume knew the problem area and your subconscious did the rest and it is freaking amazing! I don't know why you thinking me trying it would change things I'd just be like "Wow the ideomotor effect is pretty sweet."

samina wrote: »

I don't understand. If I'm misreading your post op I apologize but What possible reason would you have to interrupt with your version of the truth? If he were saying he could pull any woman in the bar would you feel so morally obligated to interrupt with the truth. I thought atheists were against preaching beliefs or lack of.

Why is it my "version" of the truth. It's a natural explanation. If someone thought that gravity worked because an invisible flying spaghetti monster was pushing things down with his noodles you'd tell them about the theory of gravity. Even if they choose to reject it why is offering knowledge on how a thing works a bad thing? I'm not mocking these people, they have merely in all likelihood been neglected by society and not informed how this worked and then someone else ignorant of the actual cause or malicious gave them a false reason.

swampgas

Opticom wrote: »

Just out of interest, does anyonw know, has the dowsing/ouija ideomotor effect been proven or is it a concept ?

There was a big craze of dowsing when I was a kid, we would all be out with bits of coat hanger "detecting" the water main running down the street.

It's quite amazing how it appears to work - but only when you know (or suspect) where the thing you're looking for is located.

Real tests where the dowser doesn't know where the searched object is hidden show that it's no better than guesswork.

samina

ShooterSF wrote: »

Why is it my "version" of the truth. It's a natural explanation. If someone thought that gravity worked because an invisible flying spaghetti monster was pushing things down with his noodles you'd tell them about the theory of gravity. Even if they choose to reject it why is offering knowledge on how a thing works a bad thing? I'm not mocking these people, they have merely in all likelihood been neglected by society and not informed how this worked and then someone else ignorant of the actual cause or malicious gave them a false reason.

You asked if its rude to interrupt people with the truth and Its just my opinion that If they want to know how things really work they can find out about it the same as you or i could. If someone wants to believe in a bit of magic that's fine. As long as they aren't hurting anyone leave them at it. It provided their nights entertainment after all.

Enkidu

bluewolf wrote: »

I'm sorry, I had to laugh...

I was in my shared office, read the original post, thought nothing of it. Then I read your post, it clicked and I just couldn't stop laughing, I had to leave the office!:D

ShooterSF

samina wrote: »

You asked if its rude to interrupt people with the truth and Its just my opinion that If they want to know how things really work they can find out about it the same as you or i could. If someone wants to believe in a bit of magic that's fine. As long as they aren't hurting anyone leave them at it. It provided their nights entertainment after all.

I get what you're saying but it's all too easy to say "If they want to know how things really work they can find out about it the same as you or i could."

For most of my life I've believed the tongue hosted different regions that dealt with specific tastes. I was taught that in school. I had no reason to disbelieve it and never actively searched about it later. I was just lucky to wander across someone explaining how it was bunkum or I'd still believe it to this day. I wasn't offended when I found out I was wrong.

Maybe they honestly bought that explanation on first offer because they knew no better and therefore never felt the need to research how it works because they already "know". Is it wrong to assume that people actually want to know when they have been mistaken? A part of me likes to think that they would be delighted to have heard an alternate solution. I do understand that knowing the truth on this topic at that time was rather trivial but you never know when it can become less trivial.

For example, something I left out of the original explanation was that the gent showing his friend the dowsing rod and ball also said he was a faith healer. I honestly believe he believes that. Now the other chap who seemed to be quite excited by these other things has now mistakenly "seen" evidence for spirits where it isn't and may later use this misinformation to approach a faith healer when sick as spirits existing makes it make sense. Now before you attack me and say how can I know faith healers don't work, I'm not saying that here. I'm saying dowsing doesn't work as stated but it gives misplaced credit to a spirit world that may or may not exist (leaving my skepticism aside for a moment) and could lead to more serious problems.

Now of course they could just think it's a cool play thing and the second guy may even have only been humouring the first, who knows?

Opticom

robindch wrote: »

It's been demonstrated many times and it's a standard technique for stage "psychics" and magicians.

I would say it is, but with regards to something like the ouija, dowsing or the OP, is that the accepted scientifically proved explanation, would you have a link ? I'm completely sceptical of such things, but I would still like scientific proof that they are ideomotor effect so I can honestly nail any discussion on them next time I encounter them, rather than just have an opinion / theory / belief that they are so.