Season 2 Episode 8 - *HAVE READ THE BOOKS/SPOILERS

donnacha

I'll be interested to see how they handle the Rattleshirt/Qhorin/Jon arc tonight

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6k6ILaHNs

MitchKoobski

Good filler episode to set the stage for the final two episodes.

MitchKoobski

Frisbee

Much better episode than last weeks and sets up next weeks eisode very nicely.

MitchKoobski

The introduction of the dragonglass at this time has me looking forward to the final episode in two weeks time.

titan18

Rather average again. No weasel soup was expected even if it pisses me off, but Arya not killing a guard going out of Harrenhal was stupid. It signifies her loss of innocence and her going on to be an assassin. Not doing it is pointless and doesn't really make much sense.

Along with that, Robb and Catelyn not finding about Bran and Rickon is stupid. It's what drives Catelyn to freeing Jaime and for Robb to sleep with Jeyne. Not doing that makes their decisions look really bad.

Still no direwolves either, you can kinda explain not showing Bran and Rickons, but Jon and Robbs should really be shown or at least mentioned.

calex71

A lot of changes from the books now, didn't like how the Jon arc played out, they totally cut out them running from the Wildlings after seeing their horde of giants and mammoths "Now we run", that scene was vital for building tension and urgency to their cause :mad:

River run totally cut from the series too, though that wasn't an issue really. but snacked of them cutting costs a bit.

titan18

calex71 wrote: »

A lot of changes from the books now, didn't like how the Jon arc played out, they totally cut out them running from the Wildlings after seeing their horde of giants and mammoths "Now we run", that scene was vital for building tension and urgency to their cause :mad:

River run totally cut from the series too, though that wasn't an issue really. but snacked of them cutting costs a bit.

Don't really mind Riverrun at the moment, Edmure has to be introduced next season unless they completely lose themselves, and Hoster doesn't need to be shown. I hope they don't cut the Blackfish but I expect they will

Frisbee

titan18 wrote: »

Rather average again. No weasel soup was expected even if it pisses me off, but Arya not killing a guard going out of Harrenhal was stupid. It signifies her loss of innocence and her going on to be an assassin. Not doing it is pointless and doesn't really make much sense.

Along with that, Robb and Catelyn not finding about Bran and Rickon is stupid. It's what drives Catelyn to freeing Jaime and for Robb to sleep with Jeyne. Not doing that makes their decisions look really bad.

Still no direwolves either, you can kinda explain not showing Bran and Rickons, but Jon and Robbs should really be shown or at least mentioned.

+1 to all this.

calex71 wrote: »

A lot of changes from the books now, didn't like how the Jon arc played out, they totally cut out them running from the Wildlings after seeing their horde of giants and mammoths "Now we run", that scene was vital for building tension and urgency to their cause :mad:

I was really looking forward to the chase across the mountains since the start of the season. But considering how last weeks episode ended I knew we weren't going to get it so I wasn't surprised when they shoehorned the Halfhand back into the story in this episode.

titan18

Something I read on westeros and kinda noticed it myself but paid no attention to it, but Karstark in the scene with Catelyn and Robb swears to The Father(the Seven) instead of the old gods as he would as a Northman.

A lot of people would miss that but it goes to show how little the producers care for the book imo. Might have been an accident but surely Martin would have picked up upon it if he saw it

Daith

Agree with it being stupid that Robb and Cat don't learn about the boys. Needs more direwolves too. Even a line from Tonks saying the direwolves have been leading Theon's men in circles to protect the boys.

Son0vagun

Enjoyable enough episode. I don't mind the deviations from books. But did hate the way they showed Osha causally heading down the crypts with the bread, made the tension and mystery of last weeks eps a bit pointless. Also laughed when Glenn and Sam found the dragon glass, I wondered how many people thought the stone cap looked like a Lost type hatch.

I think it's safe to say now that the brotherhood without banners are going to have a big part to play in Aryas plot for the next couple of seasons. They've been mentioned enough times now, wouldn't be surprised if we meet them before seasons end! That also makes me think we will be seeing a lot of Lady Stoneheart when she arrives.

mewso

Frisbee wrote: »

I was really looking forward to the chase across the mountains since the start of the season. But considering how last weeks episode ended I knew we weren't going to get it so I wasn't surprised when they shoehorned the Halfhand back into the story in this episode.

It is possible that Jon and Q will escape and "run". Clutching at straws maybe but it's possible.

I do remember Cat letting Jamie go over grief and I completely agree it was a terrible decision to exclude that but maybe my memory is going as I don't remember Robb sleeping with Jeyne out of grief. In fact I don't remember that relationship having any real detail at all early on simply Robb informing Cat that he was marrying her.

Also Arya has left Haranhall but surely they are not going to skip Valar Morgalis. I mean ffs.

Gbear

mewso wrote: »

It is possible that Jon and Q will escape and "run". Clutching at straws maybe but it's possible.

I do remember Cat letting Jamie go over grief and I completely agree it was a terrible decision to exclude that but maybe my memory is going as I don't remember Robb sleeping with Jeyne out of grief. In fact I don't remember that relationship having any real detail at all early on simply Robb informing Cat that he was marrying her.

Also Arya has left Haranhall but surely they are not going to skip Valar Morgalis. I mean ffs.

Episode 10 is called "Valar Morghulis" so it'll show up eventually.

Didn't think much of it as an episode.

Disappointed they seem to have done away with Tyrion's chain. He doesn't really have much to take credit for by the looks of things when in the books, as far as I remember, he nearly single-handedly saved the city.

As already pointed out the pointless prevention of Cat and Robb learning of what Theon did made the decision to free the kingslayer mind-blowingly stupid.

I kinda liked how they've used the deviation from the books to make the relationships between Jon and Ygritte and Robb and "Jeyne" more believable. We could actually see the relationships developing and all we seem to have lost is the Westerling-related treachery subplot.

Denerick

I don't normally mind a few deviations from the books. They're different mediums after all, and a television show with mass appeal has to sacrifice some subtlety every now and then for the sake of plot development (And comprehension!) But the whole Bran/Rickon thing was terribly handled.

The whole pathos in the second book is that the reader assumes that the two princes are dead, and share in the grief of the Maestar, Catelyn and Robb. Although George R.R. Martin likes to resurrect characters, I don't think he had done so prior to this. So their re-emergence at the end of the second book is supposed to smack you at the face and leave you dizzy.

When Robb dies

its adds extra poignoncy and casts their struggle in the mould of an ancient myth - the two little princelings, and the rightful heirs to Winterfell are assumed dead. So letting the audience know a full two episodes before they should is literally retarded and serves no creative purpose whatsoever. Also, I don't know why they didn't introduce the two marsh characters, they are pivotal for Bran in the next couple of books.

I'm similarily disappointed by Catelyn's release of Jaime. This is supposed to be at her darkest hour, once she learns that her sons are dead. Instead she looks more like a stupid airhead, when she is far from it. Arya has also suffered by the dead hand of the TV writers - maybe they can't write strong female characters the way Martin can?

Pretty shoddy fare if truth be told. Pity the writers of the tv show haven't got the same eye for a potboiler as Martin. At most I'd give this episode a five out of ten. At a push.

Gbear

Another stupid thing as mentioned above is that they needlessly revealed Bran and Rickon were alive too quickly (as well as making it fairly obvious that they weren't dead anyway). They could've strung the viewers along until the sacking of Winterfell and with the last scene of the series could've shown them emerging from the crypts.

beardedmaster

I really, really hope they don't scrap the chain.

DarkDusk

MitchKoobski wrote: »

I spotted this before i watched the episode and wondered what it meant... Just came across the clip and laughed my ass off so hard! Thank you for this contribution!


(Btw, if you haven't watched Lost, you won't understand the excessive laughter I just experienced...)

titan18

Gbear wrote: »

I kinda liked how they've used the deviation from the books to make the relationships between Jon and Ygritte and Robb and "Jeyne" more believable. We could actually see the relationships developing and all we seem to have lost is the Westerling-related treachery subplot.

I agree with the rest bar this. Jon and Ygritte doesn't mind me too much other than the fact they've made Jon seem really stupid in every way and seem to be trying to make him less of a strong character (such as him asking can he go with Qhorin instead of being requested, the crap with Craster earlier on).

Robb and Jeyne/Talisa is the thing I find most jarring of anything in the show. It's wrote like a really crap love story in the first place and is something that Martin didn't even go near in the books.

In the books, it's just from what I can tell, Robb was wounded, he learned about Bran and Rickon and Jeyne comforted him, and Robb never really strayed from the war barring doing his honour by marrying her. Considering Jeyne is highborn and part of a really old family, it can be considered right that Robb marries her. Her being a Westerling is important as the Freys are considered a minor house and one of the younger houses, which annoys Walder. Her being a Westerling is an actual catalyst for the Red Wedding, as it bridges Walder, House Lannister and Roose.

In the show, Talisa whilst highborn is a foreigner and the whole relationship is Robb thinking with his dick rather than his head. He gets away with that in the book, like Catelyn, because of despair and he wasn't going to be thinking straight. It's actually so far out of Robbs character for him to be with her.

Robb comes off far more mature in the books despite being younger than in the TV show. With the way it's going between Robb and Talisa atm, I can't wait for the Red Wedding so it'll stop

Gbear

titan18 wrote: »

I agree with the rest bar this. Jon and Ygritte doesn't mind me too much other than the fact they've made Jon seem really stupid in every way and seem to be trying to make him less of a strong character (such as him asking can he go with Qhorin instead of being requested, the crap with Craster earlier on).

Robb and Jeyne/Talisa is the thing I find most jarring of anything in the show. It's wrote like a really crap love story in the first place and is something that Martin didn't even go near in the books.

In the books, it's just from what I can tell, Robb was wounded, he learned about Bran and Rickon and Jeyne comforted him, and Robb never really strayed from the war barring doing his honour by marrying her. Considering Jeyne is highborn and part of a really old family, it can be considered right that Robb marries her. Her being a Westerling is important as the Freys are considered a minor house and one of the younger houses, which annoys Walder. Her being a Westerling is an actual catalyst for the Red Wedding, as it bridges Walder, House Lannister and Roose.

In the show, Talisa whilst highborn is a foreigner and the whole relationship is Robb thinking with his dick rather than his head. He gets away with that in the book, like Catelyn, because of despair and he wasn't going to be thinking straight. It's actually so far out of Robbs character for him to be with her.

Robb comes off far more mature in the books despite being younger than in the TV show. With the way it's going between Robb and Talisa atm, I can't wait for the Red Wedding so it'll stop

Yeah the story itself was ****e. What I meant was that rather than it being a good deviation in and of itself, they needed to deviate from the "off camera" romance that happened in the books. Introducing a character a few episodes ago and building that relationship was possibly a good decision in principle rather than shoehorning Jeyne Westerling in out of nowhere.

Owryan

mewso wrote: »

It is possible that Jon and Q will escape and "run". Clutching at straws maybe but it's possible.

I do remember Cat letting Jamie go over grief and I completely agree it was a terrible decision to exclude that but maybe my memory is going as I don't remember Robb sleeping with Jeyne out of grief. In fact I don't remember that relationship having any real detail at all early on simply Robb informing Cat that he was marrying her.

Also Arya has left Haranhall but surely they are not going to skip Valar Morgalis. I mean ffs.

I think the essence of Cat's grief was shown and leaving out the Frey character is no big loss, storywise.

Was waiting for the Valar Morgalis scene and was left feeling robbed when it didnt happen...hopefully next week .

As for Jon and Halfhand, it looks like Halfhand is setting jon up as a turncoat, at least thats how i read the scene. Maybe they will do a runner tho.

At this stage Theon really looks like he is reacting to his sister/firstmate and no longer in control.

Cant wait to see how they work the Boultons treachery

chupacabra

Owryan wrote: »

Was waiting for the Valar Morgalis scene and was left feeling robbed when it didnt happen...hopefully next week .

Next week is probably all blackwater. Plus the last episode of the season is called Valar Morghulis so im guessing its in there.

I dont know how to feel about some of the stuff they have changed. Definitely Cat releasing Jaimie before hearing of Bran and Rickon is really baffling. No reason why they couldnt have worked it in.

I dont really care about the Jeyne/Talissa thing. It makes little difference considering that it will lead to the Red Wedding regardless.

However I will be really really disappointed if they leave the chain out of the battle of the blackwater. I can understand that filming something like that would cost a lot of money but its really integral to Tyrions story that they show him being instrumental in the victory and I dont think it will have the same impact if he just makes the odd inspirational speech and rides around on his horse with his soldiers.

One last shred of hope for the chain remains in this quote from D&D about the making of the episode:

Peter Brown, our sound designer, is our hero because he finally came up with the ice-cracking chatter we had in our heads when we imagined the White Walkers speaking Skroth. For “Blackwater,” he had to orchestrate a major naval battle and a land battle. And he had to come up with something very big and very loud, which would be a spoiler to explain but book readers will understand.

Fingers crossed

5starpool

I think the chain will make an appearance. It has to surely, or the sure fact of defeat that they were all discussing, even Tywin, would be utterly ridiculous to overcome, unless he is devising something far more cunning made from pig shít, which is the one thing he said they have plenty of.

chupacabra

5starpool wrote: »

I think the chain will make an appearance. It has to surely, or the sure fact of defeat that they were all discussing, even Tywin, would be utterly ridiculous to overcome, unless he is devising something far more cunning made from pig shít, which is the one thing he said they have plenty of.

The pig **** was in reference to the wildfire. Thats what Bronn called it last week.

Gbear

Is anyone else starting to feel that this show was too ambitious?

If anything, the scope will get even larger as the books progress and I think it's already starting to come apart at the seams.

They could handle the rather simple Game of Thrones very well but right now the mixture of the writing of Tyrion and Peter Dinklage are nearly all that's keeping me interested in this show. It's like watching an hour of ads with 30 minutes of Tyrion Lannister brilliance woven into it.

chupacabra

Gbear wrote: »

Is anyone else starting to feel that this show was too ambitious?

If anything, the scope will get even larger as the books progress and I think it's already starting to come apart at the seams.

They could handle the rather simple Game of Thrones very well but right now the mixture of the writing of Tyrion and Peter Dinklage are nearly all that's keeping me interested in this show. It's like watching an hour of ads with 30 minutes of Tyrion Lannister brilliance woven into it.

I think they are doing a reasonable job. I do think that they are all over the place with all the new character threads etc. which works for the books with POV chapters but translates poorly to television but pacing wise they are bang on and aside from a few departures and changes from the source material I think they are doing a pretty good job.

My only worry is that a Storm of swords is going to be a minefield to adapt and even splitting it into 2 seasons is going to be very difficult.

Gbear

chupacabra wrote: »

I think they are doing a reasonable job. I do think that they are all over the place with all the new character threads etc. which works for the books with POV chapters but translates poorly to television but pacing wise they are bang on and aside from a few departures and changes from the source material I think they are doing a pretty good job.

My only worry is that a Storm of swords is going to be a minefield to adapt and even splitting it into 2 seasons is going to be very difficult.

Like I said - too ambitious, rather than an unadulterated heap of ****.:pac:
They've done alot right and huge chunks of the show are brilliant.

I think there's no possible way without an infinite budget to properly do the books justice. That being said, at times, in an effort to cut corners as is required, they cannot adequately lay out the story and give the required context that gives far more nuance to the characters and their decisions. With that in mind, I think their duty should've first been to making a good show and as a distant second, been faithful to the books.

They seem to be in this middle ground of trying to stay as faithful to the books as they can at the expense of the plot and characters on occasion.

hidinginthebush

I enjoyed the episode, its been so long since I've read the books that I notice the deviations, but my memory's so hazy they don't ruin my expectations. What I've enjoyed most has been how it looks beyond the wall. When reading I always imagined a few frozen trees here and there, but the way its portrayed in the show show how stark (no pun intended) and naked the place is. Also, rattleshirt looked awesome!

Must add that I was looking forward to weasel soup, though given that the last episode is suitably named, and roose Bolton (can't stop thinking of rats from paths to freedom everytime he's on screen ) is getting a good bit of screen time, even mentioning his bastard, makes me hope there's not gonna be too much divergence on that front.

Reek,reek, it rhymes with weak

Sleepy

Tyrion appears far too weak in this, if they take out the chain next week and don't have him leading the charge when Sandor does a runner, I'll be extremely pissed off with their handling of the character. Tyrion isn't fascinating for drinking, whoring and jappery: it's the raw intellect behind the quips and the fact that as much as his father seems to despise him, he's Tywin's true son that makes him so compelling imho.

Mr Freeze

I enjoyed the episode, thought it was class.

The deviations from the book don't bother me anymore.

Looking forward to Blackwater, I think the chain will be involved, it will just be something Tyrion did and kept secret from Cersei and us viewers.

Really looking forward to how they handle Jaqen and Arya's last conversation and him giving her the coin.

Tzar Chasm

I'd say we'll find out about the chain from the davos pov.

Podrick payne is starting to get a bit more screen time so I expect them to stay true on that arc

As for this week the arya story line is beginning to annoy me, some of The deviations are really changing the characters development, she should have the coin by now and she should have committed her first cold blooded murders.

The lack of weasel soup also creates a massive divergance

fitz

The chain will definitely be in. Listen to the Kings Landing scenes. There's the sound of hammers on metal in the background. Subtle way of doing it, but a very obvious hint.
I'm confident it'll be in, and that they haven't mentioned it so that viewers marvel in surprise at Tyrion's sneakiness and astute tactics.

Tipsy McSwagger

Really boring episode. I had to fast forward the Robb and Jeyne tent scene because I just don't care about their relationship. Also the scene where Tyrion was spilling his heart out to Shae was the most cringeworthy in the entire series.

Owryan

Been thinking about the whole "chain issue" and it kind of of hit me that so -called boom chains have been a natural defence for port and river mouths for millenia.

So would it only natural to assume Kings Landing would have one already ?

Sleepy

fitz wrote: »

The chain will definitely be in. Listen to the Kings Landing scenes. There's the sound of hammers on metal in the background. Subtle way of doing it, but a very obvious hint.
I'm confident it'll be in, and that they haven't mentioned it so that viewers marvel in surprise at Tyrion's sneakiness and astute tactics.

Well spotted. I completely missed that.

titan18

Gbear wrote: »

Is anyone else starting to feel that this show was too ambitious?

If anything, the scope will get even larger as the books progress and I think it's already starting to come apart at the seams.

They could handle the rather simple Game of Thrones very well but right now the mixture of the writing of Tyrion and Peter Dinklage are nearly all that's keeping me interested in this show. It's like watching an hour of ads with 30 minutes of Tyrion Lannister brilliance woven into it.

Yup. 1st book is grand as it nearly all revolves around Eddard and then Dany's storyline. There's a central character that you work around when creating the show. With every other book, there's not, and it's only going to get worse as more characters come in, and some plot strands get pretty deep. Season 2 needed about 4 more episodes imo, but they clearly don't have the budget for it

iliketeaandcake

I thought this episode was a bit slow but I felt it is setting the scene up nicely for the remaining episodes. The deviations from the books aren't really bothering me anymore because I'm looking forward to a spectacle at the end, and then I'm going to read the books again!

But jaysus those Robb and Tulisa scenes are like watching Home and Away.
She has a nice bum but that's about it. They could have made her a bit more like the Jeyne Westerling character - wasn't she afraid of the direwolf Grey Wind and Robb had to keep him away from her?

Moar direwolf!

Bookworm85

Again, only an OK episode for me.

I'm not too happy with the deviations regarding Arya's escape from Harrenhall or with the whole Catelyn/Jamie/Brienne story. But then again I always end up disappointed when books are turned into TV shows/Movies :rolleyes:

Looking forward to seeing the Battle of the Blackwater though and seeing the wildfie and (possibly)the chain.

What are the chances of us seeing Barristan Selmy/Arstan Whitebeard & Strong Belwas? Anybody know? I frickin love Barristan Selmy

Honestly I've had no problem with the show so far. I'm a little annoyed that they've neglected the Hound's character but honestly they just seem to be doing things that are detrimental to keeping the plot up to speed. I love the Tywin/Arya scenes and never liked Reek, so his absence is more of a blessing IMO.
I also like that Ygritte has a bit of personality in the show, I always found her lacking in the books.
I'm pleased to see them pushing up the Jaime/Brienne Super-Fun-Completely-Safe-Bestest-Ever-Road-Trip; I love their dysfunctional relationship.

Also can't wait for Sandor and Arya's travels together in the upcoming seasons

calex71

Deleted User wrote: »

Honestly I've had no problem with the show so far. I'm a little annoyed that they've neglected the Hound's character but honestly they just seem to be doing things that are detrimental to keeping the plot up to speed. I love the Tywin/Arya scenes and never liked Reek, so his absence is more of a blessing IMO.
I also like that Ygritte has a bit of personality in the show, I always found her lacking in the books.
I'm pleased to see them pushing up the Jaime/Brienne Super-Fun-Completely-Safe-Bestest-Ever-Road-Trip; I love their dysfunctional relationship.

Also can't wait for Sandor and Arya's travels together in the upcoming seasons

They neglected the hound and sansa massively now you mention him , also .... now is this book 3 or 2 ..... but was there not more of her and dontos in the book too ?

Any way agree with the spoilered bit , by far the most interesting character in both book 2 and series 2 and if they continue this to season 3 it will be the same with

her and the hound

Tenger

calex71 wrote: »

They neglected the hound and sansa massively now you mention him , also .... now is this book 3 or 2 ..... but was there not more of her and dontos in the book too ?......

I think the Dontos events are very easy to just leave out of the TV show, and so far they do not seem to want to show the internaly tortured side of Sandor Clegane.

But are they not going to have to show more of Dontos before

Sansa escapes with Littlefinger?

I think it would be good to show Sansa at least TRYING to get away. It'd shut up all the people complaining about what a coward she is.

Beruthiel

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm pleased to see them pushing up the Jaime/Brienne Super-Fun-Completely-Safe-Bestest-Ever-Road-Trip; I love their dysfunctional relationship.

I cracked up when he said: You're much uglier in daylight.

eyeball kid

Really hope we see the chain in the battle. Its a pivotal part of the battle. Otherwise it looks like Tryion didn't really do anything in preparation.

Have to say, for the most part I'm enjoying the changes from the book even if it just means I won't know everything that will happen.

However I don't like the changes to Jon's story. Really think the story in the book could have been followed here, it was much better and I con't think what they have gained by changing it.

Also don't know why they could not have not told Cat & Robb about the boys before she released Jamie and Robb got with yer one. It was pretty instrumental in the decisions they made.

Ah well, roll on next week. Looking forward to it!

Daith

iliketeaandcake wrote: »

But jaysus those Robb and Tulisa scenes are like watching Home and Away.
She has a nice bum but that's about it. They could have made her a bit more like the Jeyne Westerling character - wasn't she afraid of the direwolf Grey Wind and Robb had to keep him away from her?

Moar direwolf!

Moar direwolf is always needed. Plus it sets up the whole "Starks need to listen to their direwolves more".

Have to admit, I do like not remembering half the stuff from the books so I can't get angry about any deviation I don't remember.

Son0vagun

Bryan Cogman one of the writers and script editor has had to leave twitter because of the abuse he was getting over the shows deviations from the book. I always found Bryan a gent and he always answered my tweets. I once suggested getting Tom Waits to play Castor, Cogman loved the idea. It's sad to see him having to do this.

So any way I guess there's some die hard book fans who are not happy about the deviations! For me I'm watching and enjoying a TV show. If I want weasel soup I can always reread the books.

Johnny Bitte

3 men that could best Jamie??

The only one's I can think of is Selmy Barristem and Loras Tyrell??

beardedmaster

Garlan Tyrell, his older brother, was said to be an exceptional swordsman, and practise with 3-4 men at a time.

Gbear

Johnny Bitte wrote: »

3 men that could best Jamie??

The only one's I can think of is Selmy Barristem and Loras Tyrell??

The Mountain would be an obvious other one. He's too strong, has too far a reach and has exceptionally thick armour.

I don't think that Jaime would consider Loras better than him.

Gbear

Son0vagun wrote: »

Bryan Cogman one of the writers and script editor has had to leave twitter because of the abuse he was getting over the shows deviations from the book. I always found Bryan a gent and he always answered my tweets. I once suggested getting Tom Waits to play Castor, Cogman loved the idea. It's sad to see him having to do this.

So any way I guess there's some die hard book fans who are not happy about the deviations! For me I'm watching and enjoying a TV show. If I want weasel soup I can always reread the books.

You can disagree with the deviation without being an abusive dickhead about it.

Some people are just ignorant little ****s that think that the anonymity of the internet means they can abandon all notions of respect and decorum.

Gbear

Gbear wrote: »

You can disagree with the deviation without being an abusive dickhead about it.

Some people are just ignorant little ****s that think that the anonymity of the internet means they can abandon all notions of respect and decorum.

How was he being abusive? He merely stated the facts of what some elitists have done.