Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Is it possible to fit a back boiler to an existing fire back?
Options
Comments
-
Hi Gary,
No bother
Hi Mickey,
The reason I did not fit a dual coil was because of money, the people i was doing the job for were stuck for money. The solid fuel central heating was already installed and they wanted the oil boiler connected to the heating system. In an earlier post I said that the system was changed from pressurised to open, I was wrong, it was always an open system, apologies for any confusion there.
Hi Shane,
I'm inside in work at the moment but when I get home I will get the OFTEC book that I took that statement out of. In the meantime can I ask you to try something...draw a solid fuel boiler (square box) and draw an oil boiler on the same page ..link flow and return connections by drawing 2 lines from each boiler..put pump on flow pipe by each boiler and check valve as well..now just draw in a bypass on the solid fuel side...turn on the pump at the oil boiler..the water will travel right across to the check valve on the solid fuel side but will not get through..it will go down the bypass instead..this water will travel back to the oil boiler via the return pipe..it Cannot go through the solid fuel boiler by the return pipe as the pressure from the oil boiler pump will keep the flap closed..the water is feeling restriction at this point so it will take the easiest route back to the oil boiler...going mad here that I can't sketch it out..:)
The people i was doing the job for told me that the oil was for the morning and solid fuel would do the work in the evening..
I understand you are trying but you are still wrong. You cannot install a system to suit a particular client. It must be installed so that a child can operate it. What happens if they sell the house or rent it out? Regs are there for the protection of the occupant and does not allow financial reasons to dictate the core of the install. If the occupant cannot afford to have it installed correctly then it is not installed until they can.
Once you check your books, you will find that no valves whatsoever are allowed on an osvp or on a f & e pipe.0 -
Micky Dolenz wrote: »I can picture how you did it.
However you've done something I would never do. You put two valves on a primary circuit (pump valves) and 2 restricters, pump and nrv. If by chance a valve is turned off, it could end badly. I know chances are slim but there is a chance.
I'd always think worse case scenario and design the system to avoid it at all cost.
As a side point, do OFTEC give advice on solid fuel appliances or was it for an oil applaince.
Hi mickey,
(1) The only thing I put on the flow pipe was the NRV and the safety valve, as I said in an earlier post, the solid fuel system was already installed,pump included. As I,ve stated before as well, nearly every house in Ireland in the 80's had a pump fitted to either the Flow or the Return pipework where it entered the boiler and the open vent was taken off the flow pipe at the entry to the cylnder and brought to the F & E tank in the attic, would you agree on that?
(2) Where I put the safety valve on the solid fuel system ie: between the boiler and the pump, if I was to put the open vent pipe there then it would be right?...but I couldn't cos the system was already installed and the people said floors or walls were not to be damaged.
(3) In relation to your question, the only place where I could find solid fuel boiler in the OFTEC book was in a sketch for a dual system..the sketch showed the 2 systems not linked together at all, oil boiler done a certain amount of rads and the solid fuel done the rest of the rads, both done the DHW cylinder.
(4) The people I done the job for were my Aunt and Uncle so no arguing with them on anything. Thats how I know the system is still working perfect..I also done it in the evening for them as a favour..no money
0 -
I understand you are trying but you are still wrong. You cannot install a system to suit a particular client. It must be installed so that a child can operate it. What happens if they sell the house or rent it out? Regs are there for the protection of the occupant and does not allow financial reasons to dictate the core of the install. If the occupant cannot afford to have it installed correctly then it is not installed until they can.
Once you check your books, you will find that no valves whatsoever are allowed on an osvp or on a f & e pipe.
Hi Shane,
First of all do you agree that the solid ful boiler cannot get hot through the return pipe with the NRV on the flow and the pressure of the oil burner pump keeping the flap closed?
The particular client was me Aunt and Uncle and no money changed hands, I done it in the evening as a favour to them.thats how I know that the house would never be sold or rented out
The job was done over 15 years ago, don't even know if there was regs even out then...none of the older plumbers I worked at the time with ever mentioned regs, situation is completly different today.
In OFTEC book Technical Book 4 1st Edition 2006 on page 2(4) it states " If any valves are fitted in pipework used as a route for the feed and expansion pipe, they must be of a type, which cannot be easily adjusted by unathorisedpersons."
I fitted flap type NRV..non adjustable 0 -
-
I understand you are trying but you are still wrong. You cannot install a system to suit a particular client. It must be installed so that a child can operate it. What happens if they sell the house or rent it out? Regs are there for the protection of the occupant and does not allow financial reasons to dictate the core of the install. If the occupant cannot afford to have it installed correctly then it is not installed until they can.
Once you check your books, you will find that no valves whatsoever are allowed on an osvp or on a f & e pipe.
Hi Shane,
First of all do you agree that the solid ful boiler cannot get hot through the return pipe with the NRV on the flow and the pressure of the oil burner pump keeping the flap closed?
The particular client was me Aunt and Uncle and no money changed hands, I done it in the evening as a favour to them.thats how I know that the house would never be sold or rented out
The job was done over 15 years ago, don't even know if there was regs even out then...none of the older plumbers I worked at the time with ever mentioned regs, situation is completly different today.
In OFTEC book Technical Book 4 1st Edition 2006 on page 2(4) it states " If any valves are fitted in pipework used as a route for the feed and expansion pipe, they must be of a type, which cannot be easily adjusted by unathorisedpersons."
I fitted flap type NRV..non adjustable
Sorry no I do not agree for reasons I previously outlined.
Money changing hands or not is irrelevant as you deemed yourself to be a competent person by agreeing to undertake the works in hand and therefore must install as per the regulations of that time period and yes of course there was regulations 15 years ago. Again, if you deemed yourself competent to carry out the works then that means as per the regs.
Upon my return next week I will quote the relevant OFTEC section reference.0 -
Advertisement
-
Sorry no I do not agree for reasons I previously outlined.
Money changing hands or not is irrelevant as you deemed yourself to be a competent person by agreeing to undertake the works in hand and therefore must install as per the regulations of that time period and yes of course there was regulations 15 years ago. Again, if you deemed yourself competent to carry out the works then that means as per the regs.
Upon my return next week I will quote the relevant OFTEC section reference.
Grat stuff,I look forward to continuing this discussion, can you also get me the regulations that were available 15+ years ago as well?
You also stated in a previous quote "A dual heating system should always be plumbed so that both system can be on at the same time and is easily achieved if designed and installed correctly"..Why would you have the 2 boilers working at the same time?..The main reason people get the dual system is to have either one or the other system working..would you not agree?
Talk to you soon 0 -
Grat stuff,I look forward to continuing this discussion, can you also get me the regulations that were available 15+ years ago as well?
You also stated in a previous quote "A dual heating system should always be plumbed so that both system can be on at the same time and is easily achieved if designed and installed correctly"..Why would you have the 2 boilers working at the same time?..The main reason people get the dual system is to have either one or the other system working..would you not agree?
Talk to you soon
For the regs you can check www.environ.ie archives.
Regarding your comment on the two systems on together, again I would disagree. Solid fuel systems can never achieve continuous outputs as high as an oil boiler and therefore the two systems will be required to be on together to achieve all radiators with overall similar high temperatures. The oil boiler will go out on temperature quicker and for longer time periods thus saving on oil usage.0 -
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
-
-
I will repost it next week.
Nothing vague about that. It makes sense to always install a safe and working system and therefore it is expected by the client.
Coal if I can remember is about 7kwh per kg. Solid fuel open fires with back boilers are about 40% efficient so in order to keep up with a standard efficiency of approx 80% 25kw oil or gas boiler, you will have to keep shovelling approx 7kg of coal every hour into it. If you don't keep it up, the kwh will drop and the radiators will become cooler.
At least with dual the system can be automatically topped up when needed or turned off when the solid fuel is meeting its obligation.
The system I fitted over 15 years ago is still working perfect today, only change I would have made would be to install the open vent next to the safety valve on the solid fuel boiler but aunt and uncle wouldn't let any dirty work proceed, They came to me asking me to do it for them and I came up with the system that suited them and the solid fuel boiler that was there already, they were very happy with it and to be honest I would do the same again today.
I look forward to seeing the sketch
Go on and enjoy your pool 0 -
-
-
Back in the land of nod :-(
Here's the diagram...
Had a look at your sketch. In truth, it may or may not work, as equally the return through the solid fuel could keep the non-return valve open. Whether it works or not, it would certainly not be an install I would undertake in that manner. Too many "what if's" when pump failure or power cuts occur.
It works perfect even though you might find it hard to admit it
As I keep having to remind you it's a job that I done over 15 years ago and the solid fuel was already installed by someone else..I just connected in the oil
The return water will always take the the path of least resistance so it will not keep the NRV flap open.
"what if's"....On my sketch there is a 2nd open vent fitted and a safety valve If there was a power failure.
I had a look at your sketch, very nice,..have one query though, when the oil boiler is running and the flow pump circulates the water around, what stops it from pumping through the pump on the secondary circuit on the solid fuel sytem and circulating through the return on the solid fuel boiler?
Also, I have been doing a bit of research on this topic for the last few days and any schematic I have come across shows the two heating circuits NOT combined...solid fuel does a certain amount of rads, usually in the centre of the house and the oil does the rest of the rads around the house...OFTEC and Domestic Design Guide 2008 are two books which show that.0 -
It works perfect even though you might find it hard to admit it
As I keep having to remind you it's a job that I done over 15 years ago and the solid fuel was already installed by someone else..I just connected in the oil
The return water will always take the the path of least resistance so it will not keep the NRV flap open.
"what if's"....On my sketch there is a 2nd open vent fitted and a safety valve If there was a power failure.
I had a look at your sketch, very nice,..have one query though, when the oil boiler is running and the flow pump circulates the water around, what stops it from pumping through the pump on the secondary circuit on the solid fuel sytem and circulating through the return on the solid fuel boiler?
Also, I have been doing a bit of research on this topic for the last few days and any schematic I have come across shows the two heating circuits NOT combined...solid fuel does a certain amount of rads, usually in the centre of the house and the oil does the rest of the rads around the house...OFTEC and Domestic Design Guide 2008 are two books which show that.
Hiya,
I'm still waiting for an answer to the above..
also still waiting for... "Upon my return next week I will quote the relevant OFTEC section reference."0 -
Hiya,
I'm still waiting for an answer to the above..
also still waiting for... "Upon my return next week I will quote the relevant OFTEC section reference."
Apologies. Still in holiday mode ... I wish....
In answer to your question there is no circulation in that part of the system when the oil boiler only is on, but of course when both system are on, there will be acceptable circulation in both circuits.
OFTEC reference: Book 4 (3.3.1) General Paragraph 2
"The feed and expansion pipe must be able to keep the boiler full of water no matter what happens to any valves or controls fitted to the system. Therefore, no valves are permitted to be fitted within the feed and expansion pipework."
I hope this now answers your questions and I think we have flogged this one enough. This is basic stuff and should be common knowledge for trained competent persons. Good design will always result in a reliable and trouble-free system. It is not my place to warrant or condone a practice that is due to another installer, another time, another etc, etc. but I can only comment on what is best practice and what should be done when found. I am sure if a poorly installed system is pointed out to client and the issues that could potentially arise from that, then most clients will most likely opt for the better installation. It will most definitely result in further referral work and duly so.0 -
Apologies. Still in holiday mode ... I wish....
In answer to your question there is no circulation in that part of the system when the oil boiler only is on, but of course when both system are on, there will be acceptable circulation in both circuits.
OFTEC reference: Book 4 (3.3.1) General Paragraph 2
"The feed and expansion pipe must be able to keep the boiler full of water no matter what happens to any valves or controls fitted to the system. Therefore, no valves are permitted to be fitted within the feed and expansion pipework."
I hope this now answers your questions and I think we have flogged this one enough. This is basic stuff and should be common knowledge for trained competent persons. Good design will always result in a reliable and trouble-free system. It is not my place to warrant or condone a practice that is due to another installer, another time, another etc, etc. but I can only comment on what is best practice and what should be done when found. I am sure if a poorly installed system is pointed out to client and the issues that could potentially arise from that, then most clients will most likely opt for the better installation. It will most definitely result in further referral work and duly so.
What stops it from circulating?...0 -
-
Advertisement
-
Apologies. Still in holiday mode ... I wish....
In answer to your question there is no circulation in that part of the system when the oil boiler only is on, but of course when both system are on, there will be acceptable circulation in both circuits.
OFTEC reference: Book 4 (3.3.1) General Paragraph 2
"The feed and expansion pipe must be able to keep the boiler full of water no matter what happens to any valves or controls fitted to the system. Therefore, no valves are permitted to be fitted within the feed and expansion pipework."
I hope this now answers your questions and I think we have flogged this one enough. This is basic stuff and should be common knowledge for trained competent persons. Good design will always result in a reliable and trouble-free system. It is not my place to warrant or condone a practice that is due to another installer, another time, another etc, etc. but I can only comment on what is best practice and what should be done when found. I am sure if a poorly installed system is pointed out to client and the issues that could potentially arise from that, then most clients will most likely opt for the better installation. It will most definitely result in further referral work and duly so.
I think you will find that this is Heat Loss through Floors...read the book properly,,its fairly easy to follow...I,ve followed your sketch and I believe your system is seriously flawed..but what would i know..
..enjoyed this discussion 0 -
I think you will find that this is Heat Loss through Floors...read the book properly,,its fairly easy to follow...I,ve followed your sketch and I believe your system is seriously flawed..but what would i know....enjoyed this discussion
No, I think you have an out of date OFTEC Book 4. There is no mention of Heat Loss Through Floors in the section that I have quoted. I have quoted word for word and it seems pretty clear to me. The new edition is the 2010 Edition, so you may quite possibly find that my reading is fine and indeed, it is easy to follow.
Your beliefs may well lead you to that conclusion, but that is your entitlement and I cannot argue with that. Carry on installing the way you have been. Of course, sure it will be grand....0 -
No, I think you have an out of date OFTEC Book 4. There is no mention of Heat Loss Through Floors in the section that I have quoted. I have quoted word for word and it seems pretty clear to me. The new edition is the 2010 Edition, so you may quite possibly find that my reading is fine and indeed, it is easy to follow.
Your beliefs may well lead you to that conclusion, but that is your entitlement and I cannot argue with that. Carry on installing the way you have been. Of course, sure it will be grand....
Don't work on houses..leave that to the domestic plumbers... 0 -
-
-
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
Advertisement