Spoiler-Free Answers from Readers

Sleepy

If we're going the way of the book readers not being allowed to post in the "haven't read the books" threads, I think a thread for the non-readers to ask questions where they won't be spoilered makes sense.

With so many sites out there dedicated to the world of A Song of Ice and Fire / Game of Thrones, googling to find out the answer to a question e.g. "who controls Castle X" or "Who was the character that did Y in last night's episode" is quite likely to land those who haven't (yet) read the books into major spoilers so this thread is for those questions!

Mickeroo

I know I've only been posting here the last 3 weeks or so but in general I've had no problem with readers posting on the episode thread. Yesterday the way podgemonster worded his post sounded like a major spoiler and I was sickened when I read it, but thankfully it was cleared up afterwards what they meant. Your posts have always been informative and entirely spoiler free Sleepy.

Anyway, this is a good idea for a thread if readers are completely band from the other one now.

Is there any reason in the book why the other Night's Watch men didn't wait around for Snow to kill Ygritte? It seems strange that he couldn't find them and they never came looking. Only answer if its not something we'll find out later though, it just struck me as something they didn't include for time constraints when it happened!

mikemac1

Book readers needn't be banned imo

Talisman should be banned though, picked up several huge spoilers from his "predictions" :mad:

One poster ruining it for everyone

Anyway, good idea for a thread

Sleepy

Mickeroo wrote: »

Is there any reason in the book why the other Night's Watch men didn't wait around for Snow to kill Ygritte? It seems strange that he couldn't find them and they never came looking. Only answer if its not something we'll find out later though, it just struck me as something they didn't include for time constraints when it happened!

Let's just leave it at "things happen differently in the books" in this regard.

While we know where Jon's going, it appears he's taking a slightly different route in the TV series.

Mr Freeze

Good idea for a thread.

mikemac1 wrote: »

Book readers needn't be banned imo

Talisman should be banned though, picked up several huge spoilers from his "predictions" :mad:

Half of them in there have read the books i'd say and are pretending not to have so they can give their amazingly accurate predictions. :pac:

CastorTroy

I hate it when people say things like how someone is their favourite character or that they become important later on, because that means we know the character is around that long in a world where we know anyone can die at any time.

But my question is in regard to reading the books while watching the show. Basically I picked up the first book and I'm wondering if you noticed if there's anything that was covered in the first book but in the second season? I just don't want to read something like "Of course Ned didn't die but he was sneaked off into hiding" in the first book when that doesn't get revealed until season 3.

MitchKoobski

People who haven't read the books are goin to want some things clarified.

• Characters pop up without being accurately named or explained who they are and why we should know them already.
• Difficult to understand what is happening at the same time and what is happening one after the other

I've been having conversations like this with friends since series 2 started. The shadow boirthing for example, I had to explain that she pretty much gave birth to some sort of shadow creature that went on to kill Renly. They said it was disgusting. I said "well in the book she squatted down....". Query over.

Sleepy

The first series covers the first book extremely faithfully. There are of course a few scenes added, changed or left out but you won't spoiler anything from the second series by reading it.

The second series is starting to deviate more from the books but so far, while some different routes are being taken to things I've not noticed anything that would spoiler future books.

The third series is only going to be covering half of the events in the third book and while the third book was split into two volumes for it's paperback edition, I wouldn't bet on the split between seasons 3 and 4 mirroring the book split exactly.

The fifth and subsequent seasons (assuming the series gets renewed) will, most likely, take a major departure from books 4 and 5 as the events in these books occur at the same time and are split pretty much along character lines e.g. Character A we don't see at all in Book 4 but discover what they were doing in Book 5. This didn't work brilliantly in the books imo and would be disastrous to a TV series as you'd have to put an actor on hiatus for most of / all of a season only to bring them back a season later when they may no longer be available due to other commitments.

We're already seeing things happen along these lines with Arya and Tywin in this season: in the books another lord is in charge of Harrenhall for most of the time Arya is there and Tywin's activities happen "off screen". Rather than leaving Charles Dance twiddling his thumbs however, they've cut out that other character and had Tywin command his troops from there in order to utilise a great actor and have introduced what are definitely my favourite new scenes between himself and Arya.

stevenmu

Good idea, there's a mod post now on the "not read the books" thread saying that people who have read the books shouldn't post there.

stesaurus

This thread should probably be stickied so that all this kind of discussion stays in here and is visible.

Bobby42

A little confused with a part from the latest episode. The scene with Jon and Ygritte, Jon says widlings tried to kill Bran and wildlings raid westeros, how do they get beyond the wall? Was it a wildling that tried to kill Bran with a knife?

Sleepy

Osha (the wildling played by Natalia Tena) came into the series during an attack on Bran when he was out in the Wolfswood with Robb and Theon during Season 1. That was the attack Jon was talking about.

I don't think any of the ways of getting past the wall have been mentioned in the series yet but if you looked at the maps you'd see that it would be possible to sail around it. The Nightwatch have a castle "Eastwatch by the Sea" which was mentioned in passing where they'd have a few ships but since they're so undermanned it's probably quite easy for small numbers of the freefolk/wildlings to get past.

sea_monkey

Bobby42 wrote: »

A little confused with a part from the latest episode. The scene with Jon and Ygritte, Jon says widlings tried to kill Bran and wildlings raid westeros, how do they get beyond the wall? Was it a wildling that tried to kill Bran with a knife?

the nights watch is severly undermanned, which is talked about in the tv series quite a bit with tyrion carrying a message to kings landing from them stating that.

the wall is huge and the nights watch so few that they cannot man it properly.

small groups of wildlings therefore can climb over the wall and raid without even being noticed.

DL Saint

Okay I have tried to do this on the map of westeros but I can't find some of the locations and have forgotten a few details from previous episodes. So just asking a few questions for clarification.

Rob is in The Riverlands and has agreed to marry in order to cross the bridge near Riverrun?

Where did they say Stannis' ships were in episode 7? was it Blackwater Bay?

The Bastard who is sending a fleet to re-take Winterfell is in The Dreadfort?

And Theons sister is in Deepwood Mott. Can't find that on the Map, where is it located?

ArmaniJeanss

Bobby42 wrote: »

Was it a wildling that tried to kill Bran with a knife?

At this point in the book (and the series) the answer to that question is still unknown.

(I'm guessing this thread isn't for "That'll be revealed in Book 9, Chapter 106", or "Still han't been revelaed yet" type answers.)

Cookiemunster

DL Saint wrote: »

Okay I have tried to do this on the map of westeros but I can't find some of the locations and have forgotten a few details from previous episodes. So just asking a few questions for clarification.

Rob is in The Riverlands and has agreed to marry in order to cross the bridge near Riverrun?

Rob and his army are camped at Riverrun, which is the Tully family seat.
He agreed to marry one of the Frey daughters to cross the river at The Twins which is north of Riverrun.

DL Saint wrote: »

Where did they say Stannis' ships were in episode 7? was it Blackwater Bay?

I can't remember exactly where they said the fleet is in the episode, but I think Stannis fleet is sailing north from Storms End. Events around here in the series and the book differ so I'm not 100% sure.

DL Saint wrote: »

The Bastard who is sending a fleet to re-take Winterfell is in The Dreadfort?

Correct. The seat of the Boltons

DL Saint wrote: »

And Theons sister is in Deepwood Mott. Can't find that on the Map, where is it located?

Its on the north west coast below Bear Island.

stevenmu

There's a good map at http://towerofthehand.com/maps/westeros.html. As said, Deepwood is just a little north west of Winterfell.

MitchKoobski

DL Saint wrote: »

Rob is in The Riverlands and has agreed to marry in order to cross the bridge near Riverrun?

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Rob and his army are camped at Riverrun, which is the Tully family seat.
He agreed to marry one of the Frey daughters to cross the river at The Twins which is north of Riverrun.

The Twins is ruled by Lord Walder Frey aka This Guy we met in Season One.



Figure it might be even easier for people if they can put faces to the names. Might help them remember the events of the episodes in Season One too.

Mickeroo

MitchKoobski wrote: »

The Twins is ruled by Lord Walder Frey aka This Guy we met in Season One.



Figure it might be even easier for people if they can put faces to the names. Might help them remember the events of the episodes in Season One too.

Hell, a sticky with a pic of each character plus a mini(spoiler free) bio might not be a bad idea. Seems a lot of people are having trouble remembering characters names and faces etc.

MitchKoobski

The "A Song Of Fire and Ice" Wiki contains full spoilers for all the books,

BUT the Game of Thrones wiki goes in the same order as the tv series and updates the wiki as the episodes go out. http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Game_of_Thrones_Wiki

SirDelboy18

Fantastic idea for a thread.

DL Saint

DL Saint wrote: »

The Bastard who is sending a fleet to re-take Winterfell is in The Dreadfort?

Not a fleet, a medium sized group on foot and horseback.

pickarooney

Personally I don't want anyone telling me anything that's not explicitly laid out in the series itself so if these kind of questions can be kept to a separate thread that would be great. There are an awful lot of characters and places and plot lines to keep track of so I often forget about individual incidents but I hate it when someone (with the best of intentions, I appreciate), instead of just reminding what happened earlier in the show, provides backstory from the books.

gavkm27

Mickeroo wrote: »

I know I've only been posting here the last 3 weeks or so but in general I've had no problem with readers posting on the episode thread. Yesterday the way podgemonster worded his post sounded like a major spoiler and I was sickened when I read it, but thankfully it was cleared up afterwards what they meant. Your posts have always been informative and entirely spoiler free Sleepy.

Anyway, this is a good idea for a thread if readers are completely band from the other one now.

Is there any reason in the book why the other Night's Watch men didn't wait around for Snow to kill Ygritte? It seems strange that he couldn't find them and they never came looking. Only answer if its not something we'll find out later though, it just struck me as something they didn't include for time constraints when it happened!

IMO the importance of the relationship between John Snow and Qrin Halfand is not being portrayed in the series.
Qrin knows Jon Snow,because he blood of the first men and a Stark - honourable like himself,that's why he was chosen to go in to the frost fangs.Qrin knew Jon wouldn't kill Ygritte so he took the other crows away and left him to make the decision himself.
The next episode

is vital to really show the importance of Qrin/Snow relationship!

DL Saint

gavkm27 wrote: »

IMO the importance of the relationship between John Snow and Qrin Halfand is not being portrayed in the series.
Qrin knows Jon Snow,because he blood of the first men and a Stark - honourable like himself,that's why he was chosen to go in to the frost fangs.Qrin knew Jon wouldn't kill Ygritte so he took the other crows away and left him to make the decision himself.

The next episode is vital to really show the importance of Qrin/Snow relationship

!

Ah here now, in a thread that is meant to be spoiler free you are hinting at what is going to happen in the next episode, not fair, imo!

mikemac1

Just want to ask is this deliberate or just a coincidence?

I know the stories is sort of based on the War of the Roses in England

Did Martin ever talk about Ireland or its use in a map?
I'd google but unsure if I'd find spoilers, asking the good people here

genericguy

gavkm27 wrote: »

Mickeroo wrote: »

I know I've only been posting here the last 3 weeks or so but in general I've had no problem with readers posting on the episode thread. Yesterday the way podgemonster worded his post sounded like a major spoiler and I was sickened when I read it, but thankfully it was cleared up afterwards what they meant. Your posts have always been informative and entirely spoiler free Sleepy.

Anyway, this is a good idea for a thread if readers are completely band from the other one now.

Is there any reason in the book why the other Night's Watch men didn't wait around for Snow to kill Ygritte? It seems strange that he couldn't find them and they never came looking. Only answer if its not something we'll find out later though, it just struck me as something they didn't include for time constraints when it happened!

IMO the importance of the relationship between John Snow and Qrin Halfand is not being portrayed in the series.
Qrin knows Jon Snow,because he blood of the first men and a Stark - honourable like himself,that's why he was chosen to go in to the frost fangs.Qrin knew Jon wouldn't kill Ygritte so he took the other crows away and left him to make the decision himself.
The next episode

is vital to really show the importance of Qrin/Snow relationship!

You, sir, are a gobshyte.

mikemac1

mikemac1 wrote: »

Just want to ask is this deliberate or just a coincidence?

I know the stories is sort of based on the War of the Roses in England

Did Martin ever talk about Ireland or its use in a map?
I'd google but unsure if I'd find spoilers, asking the good people here
]

I'd say it's just coincedence, the only real similarities is the vale and Kerry and I don't think it was purposeful.

If you think about it in regards to the UK. The south is Dorne/Dorset. The east is Kings Landing/London, north is the colder parts like Scotland (Hadrians wall to keep the savages out?) and then in the west there's Casterly Rock who have gold mines and in Wales there's a lot of coal mines. Ireland might be the Iron Islands? The constant thorn in their backside :pac:
That's my take on it anyway .

Sleepy

Hadrian's Wall definitely inspired the wall.

Mickeroo

Actually if you look at the Wall as Hadrian's wall then the map looks like a skewed version of Britain as much as anything.

johnnyskeleton

CastorTroy wrote: »

I hate it when people say things like how someone is their favourite character or that they become important later on, because that means we know the character is around that long in a world where we know anyone can die at any time..

Like the comments people
make about brienne because they know she hooks up with hodor after he is crowned king beyon the wall?

Actually, what I find interesting is that because grrm has so much input into the show, when somethig is left out it implies he intended it. For example, it would be interesting to see what a non book reader makes of the jon snows mother theory thread.

Tenger

Great thread, and very useful for non-readers.

In reply to the Wildling with knife/Bran question:

A few wildlings tried to capture/kill Bran while on out riding in season 1. Robb and Theon killed them (Apart from Osha) I think Theon used a bow and was then given out to by Robb for endangering his brother.

SirDelboy18

Has Arya used her third kill? I was a bit confused personally. Just a yes or no would do perfectly please and thanks.

MitchKoobski

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

Has Arya used her third kill? I was a bit confused personally. Just a yes or no would do perfectly please and thanks.

Yes. Her third kill choice was Jaqen himself, so in order to get Arya to un-name him, he had to arrange an escape plan for her. She basically exchanged her last pick for an escape.

MitchKoobski

MitchKoobski wrote: »

Yes. Her third kill choice was Jaqen himself, so in order to get Arya to un-name him, he had to arrange an escape plan for her. She basically exchanged her last pick for an escape.

But lives were taken so the Red God is satisfied

DL Saint

Deleted User wrote: »

But lives were taken so the Red God is satisfied

Well from how I interprated it the Red God applies to death by fire, so Arya by saving the three from the flames had three lives to give to the god. Now two were taken and then around 5 after that, surely the Red God only wanted 1 more life taken to balance it out and now there are lives taken that shouldn't be... Anyway I know it dusn't really matter too much, was just the way I saw it :cool:

squonk

I've just started on Book 1 at the weekend and I have seen other comments on here about a back story e.g. where Robb has to marry the Frey Girl and Arya has to marry a Frey son thanks to Cait who arranged it. I even get the feeling from the books that there is a back story. I'm only on Ch 2! Is there a GoT prequel or a previous series with Ned and Robert Barathian growing up? Is diving into the books a bit like going at LoTR without having first read The Hobbit?

ArmaniJeanss

squonk wrote: »

I've just started on Book 1 at the weekend and I have seen other comments on here about a back story e.g. where Robb has to marry the Frey Girl and Arya has to marry a Frey son thanks to Cait who arranged it. I even get the feeling from the books that there is a back story. I'm only on Ch 2! Is there a GoT prequel or a previous series with Ned and Robert Barathian growing up? Is diving into the books a bit like going at LoTR without having first read The Hobbit?

Nope, all those things you've mentioned with Robb/Arya and the Freys will happen in the book you are reading.
The history of Ned & Robert and how they got were they are will also be touched upon in this book.

stevenmu

There's no prequel that I'm aware of. The books give a bit more detail on the relationship between Cat's family and the Freys later (and bits about Ned and Robert), as needed. I won't say if there's anything important there or not, because that in itself would be a spoiler But I will say that it doesn't leave you hanging completely and that you don't need to have read anything else previously.

If you're new to reading fantasy or sci-fi books, it's fairly common for them to do this, they often hint at past events and then slowly reveal more and more about them, it helps to create a more believable world. It does often leave you wondering if there's something else you should have read, but that in turn helps them sell more books

squonk

I've read fantasy off and on over the years but it's my first time reading GRRM so I wasn't sure if there was anything of a prequel! Thanks!

Sleepy

There's a series of short stories / novellas called "the tales of Dunk & Egg" that are a sort of a prequel, they feature Ser Duncan the Tall a Hedge Knight and his squire Egg and occur roughly 100 years before the events of A Game of Thrones.

They're more an interesting diversion that describes more of the world (and what life was like under Targaryen rule prior to the "Mad King" Aerys) than direct prequels though.

The three written so far are:

• The Hedge Knight (also available as a graphic novel)
• The Sworn Sword (also available as a graphic novel)
• The Mystery Knight

GRRM plans to write a good deal more of these (anywhere from 6 to 12 in total depending on the interview you find), there's a fourth installment due this year actually

More info: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dunk_and_Egg (be careful on the wiki, spoilers abound elsewhere)

squonk

There's conjecture at the moment over on the 'Haven't Read the Books' Episode 9 thread about whether Sansa has actually left Kings Landing with The Hound. She seems very reluctant to leave the place though I believe she has gone. It was great to finally see her get out of there for her own safety but it highlights for me why her character bugs me so much.

She's very unlike the rest of her family. My impression of her during S1 was of a girl who was full of herself and intent on being queen and thinking how great she was. When Jofrey revealed his true colours you would think that would have been enough to get her plotting in some way to get out of there ASAP. Even Tyrion seems to have seen the writing on the wall at some point and offered to get her out of there if I remember/interpreted that correctly. She declined. Tyrion has a sense of decency none of the other Lannisters have so I'm pretty sure he was focusing on her welfare and while he might have wished to see her left with an ally rather than allowed to return to Winterfell, at least she'd have been out of Joffrey's way. Even this latest offer to help her leave was met with indecision. I believe she's finally bitten the bullet and gone on the run.

Why is she so stupid? Why is she so generally boring? I would hope she's a Cat Stark in training rather than a scared girly girl all through the books. I know people can't and might not even want to comment on what's happening with her character and it's not fair on non-readers but am I justified in my view of her? Can she grow? Is this the beginning of her journey to be a stronger person?

Not everyone can be Arya but she's really a polar opposite to Sansa. I'd watch a full Arya episode any day ahead of a Sansa one.

Sleepy

Arya and Sansa are portrayed as polar opposites from the very start of the show: Arya's a tomboy showing up Bran with a bow and arrow whilst Sansa's playing with doll's, doing croché etc.

Sansa's much more her mother's daughter: a highborn lady who's being raised to take part in a political marriage, please her husband and give him lots of children. Arya's rebelling against this role in life, admiring female warriors of the past (Nymeria) and Ned comments at some point that she reminds him of his sister Lyanna (that Robert loved).

Many readers find Sansa an irritating character and, tbh, I find her to be a bit stronger in the TV series, getting the odd barbed comment in here and there. Her position at the moment is really quite simple: she's a scared little girl who's being rudely awakened to the fact that the world she lives isn't one of the chivalrous and noble knights of the songs and that not all noblemen live up to the word "noble" as her father did.

I don't recall Tyrion offering to get her out of Kings Landing in the series, he showed concern for her and wanted to protect her from Joffrey (as obviously, him harming her would damage any possibility of suing for peace with the Starks: she's worth far more to the Lannisters alive and unharmed than dead and Tyrion, being a pragmatic man like his father, knows this).

If you want an answer as to whether she left with the hound or not: SPOILER FOR NEXT WEEK'S EPISODE:

she didn't

squonk

Thanks Sleepy! I think I did misinterpret what Tyrion said, but she even refused his protection. I know she's a scared little girl but surely at some point self protection has to kick in and force her to choose a side. Cat releasing Jaime Lannister did strike me as being very much one of those stupid, pointless moves that you see every day with Sansa. There's a dignity and presence to Lady Stark that Sansa doesn't have though. Every time I see her now I end up thinking that if I had a sword I'd run her through myself. She's utterly helpless.

Thanks for the spoiler! There's a trailer going around that tells what happens so I'd have caught that before the ep aired anyway so it's not a big one!

Sleepy

She did my head in reading the books as well tbh. The books are written in a POV form so each chapter deals with a single characters view (e.g. Jon, Ned, Sansa, Bran, Arya, Tyrion, Daenarys and Catelyn were the POV's in the first book IIRC)

On my first read of the books I was utterly hooked: often reading until 3/4am when I had to be up for work the next day. It was usually when I saw the next chapter was a Sansa chapter that I was finally able to put the book down!

duiggers

squonk wrote: »

She's very unlike the rest of her family. My impression of her during S1 was of a girl who was full of herself and intent on being queen and thinking how great she was. When Jofrey revealed his true colours you would think that would have been enough to get her plotting in some way to get out of there ASAP. Even Tyrion seems to have seen the writing on the wall at some point and offered to get her out of there if I remember/interpreted that correctly. She declined. Tyrion has a sense of decency none of the other Lannisters have so I'm pretty sure he was focusing on her welfare and while he might have wished to see her left with an ally rather than allowed to return to Winterfell, at least she'd have been out of Joffrey's way. Even this latest offer to help her leave was met with indecision. I believe she's finally bitten the bullet and gone on the run.

When Tyrion (who is a Lannister in her own eyes) offered her a way out how could she fully trust him and accept it. If she had it would blatantly show that she isn't loyal to Joffrey/Lannisters which would'nt have been looked to kindly upon by momma Lannsiter.

Of course she indecisive about the Hounds offer, he's said to her he loves killing and even if he doesn't kill he can do quite a lot else to her. It would be worse if she just went around trusting everyone who showed a bit off decency to her, instead she is weighing up her options to pick her best escape opportunity.

Sleepy

There's a definite truth to this: she's beginning to see how the game is played and recognise the danger that someone who appears to be offering help could just be manoeuvring you so they can put the dagger in your back but there's a big leap from recognising that there is a Game of Thrones and being able to play an active part in it!

squonk

Those are fair points alright. I know she didn't know this but the fact that Tyrion is, himself, playing his own games with Mammy Lannister and protecting his own whore probably shows he wasn't really trying to set her up but to keep her safe, for his own ends obviously but it's better than now.

The Hound is no saint but he certainly looks to be genuine about protecting her. I know there's advantages to him being on the run with a Stark who he could use as a prisoner if needed be but she's not exactly home and dry in Kings Landing right now. By comparison, if Arya waited to double check every offer of help, she'd probably have her head on a spike in Harrenhall by now.

CastorTroy

I keep seeing the names starting with it but what does "Ser" mean? Is it a title of some sort?

Crucifix

CastorTroy wrote: »

I keep seeing the names starting with it but what does "Ser" mean? Is it a title of some sort?

Ser is the title for a knight, so all the chaps in the kingsguard for example, Ser Boros Blunt, Ser Mandon Moore, etc

Einhard

squonk wrote: »

Every time I see her now I end up thinking that if I had a sword I'd run her through myself. She's utterly helpless.

I think that's a tad unfair considering the situation she finds herself in. She's 1 13 year old girl, raised as a highborn lady in one of the greatest houses in the land, and like many young girls had her head filled with impossible notions of romance and chivalry and a happy ending.

Unlike most such girls though, in whom such notions slowly dissipate as they grow older na dmore worldly wise, Sansa's conception of the world is smashed before her eyes in the most brutal fashion possible. The boy whom she had hoped to love has turned out to be a sadistic tyrant who not only savagely killed her father, but presses home the point at every opportunity. He beats her savagely, has his knights do so too, and talks of the tortures he will inflict on the rest of her family.

She is imprisoned in an unfamiliar city, with nobody she knows, and a mere pawn in a vicious game. She cannot trust anyone, she is constantly in fear for her life, and she knows that she is only still around because of her usefullness. In honesty, I think Arya's position is enviable compare to Sansa's, and when one looks at her predicament, she's actually holding up very well.