Wireless Alarm system

Matt406

Hi All,

Below is a quote that I’ve received for a wireless alarm system in a two storey house. What are your opinions on the price?

Wireless Alarm system
Keypad and Main Panel
7 x Pir’s,
Internal Sounder: x 1
External Sounder (SAAB): x 1
Back Door: 1 x door contact
Digi modem card:
Additional Keypad – X1
€1340 – installed (no certification)

Thanks

jameshayes

http://www.altor.ie/special_offer_11.html

750 start price sounds better than your quote above...

jameshayes

and only 699 from http://www.realsecurity.ie/

Jnealon

Matt406 wrote: »

Hi All,

Below is a quote that I’ve received for a wireless alarm system in a two storey house. What are your opinions on the price?

Wireless Alarm system
Keypad and Main Panel
7 x Pir’s,
Internal Sounder: x 1
External Sounder (SAAB): x 1
Back Door: 1 x door contact
Digi modem card:
Additional Keypad – X1
€1340 – installed (no certification)

Thanks

Very expensive and I have highlighted a big red flag.
If it's a licensed company then certification is mandatory

KoolKid

Matt406 wrote: »

€1340 – installed (no certification)

Thanks

Can you explain what you mean here. This is not an optional extra.
Is this from a licenced installer?

Also , I don't get why company's list a cert as if its a feature. Its a must.

Matt406

KoolKid wrote: »

Can you explain what you mean here. This is not an optional extra.
Is this from a licenced installer?

Also , I don't get why company's list a cert as if its a feature. Its a must.

Hi,

The quote says the following regarding certification -

Please note this does not include certification but this is available at additional cost of €350.00 which also includes 3 service calls, registration and associated paperwork but this is not compulsory

KoolKid

Care to forward us on that quote.?
I'm sure the PSA would be very interested.
An extra €350 to write out a cert??:eek: And then saying its not compulsory . Whether licenced or not this guy is 1) acting illegally and 2) totally ripping you off,
Steer well clear. I'd be very interested in looking into this guy if you want to PM me.
There are too many unlicensed operators giving everyone a bad name.

Jnealon

350 for the maintenance and monitoring ???
Anyway it still does not sound right

KoolKid

I don't read it that that means monitoring.
You shouldn't be needing 3 service calls on a new system anyway.
What happened to a guarantee ?
Either way certification is not optional.

fred funk }{

Must mean monitoring & service. No company would be crazy enough to charge for certification.

altor

Matt406 wrote: »

Hi All,

Below is a quote that I’ve received for a wireless alarm system in a two storey house. What are your opinions on the price?

Wireless Alarm system
Keypad and Main Panel
7 x Pir’s,
Internal Sounder: x 1
External Sounder (SAAB): x 1
Back Door: 1 x door contact
Digi modem card:
Additional Keypad – X1
€1340 – installed (no certification)

Thanks

Perimeter protection is the better option. An intruder has to be in your premises before a PIR will pick them up, It is the cheaper option doing it this way. Most PIRs in a trap pack will be off at night to allow you walk around the house without setting off the alarm system, this can lead to an easy entry for a potential burglar. They have to certify the system if they are installing a new system. I would too say the €350 is for monitoring and maintenance. If they are trying to charge for the maintenance on a new system when it should be covered by the warranty they are chancing there arm.

KoolKid

Regardless of what the €350 is for they are still stating the install does not include certification . Matt seems to be quoting directly.
Still sounds dodgy to me.

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

Regardless of what the €350 is for they are still stating the install does not include certification . Matt seems to be quoting directly.
Still sounds dodgy to me.

Something is not right. I have seen electricians quoting for alarms and then when asked for a cert put it through a certified company. It is wrong but the PSA did nothing about it as they could not get enough evidence.

Matt406

Thanks for all the replies. Just to clarify this is taken directly from the quote –

“Please note this does not include certification but this is available at additional cost of €350.00 which also includes 3 service calls, registration and associated paperwork but this is not compulsory”

This is not for monitoring (it’s not a monitored system), my understanding of this is that it’s for certification and 3 service calls – which I don’t really understand – why would I need 3 service calls on a new system and does it not come with a guarantee?

I think that “Altor” has hit the nail on the head with -

“Something is not right. I have seen electricians quoting for alarms and then when asked for a cert put it through a certified company. It is wrong but the PSA did nothing about it as they could not get enough evidence.”

KoolKid

You have to report this to the PSA and whatever certification body this guy is using (if any)
This guy is conning people. He is breaking the law, and if he's not licensed he is also getting his customers to break the law also.
If your not comfortable reporting this then forward the quote to me or one of the other licensed installers here. We would be more than happy to forward on to the relevant authorities .

Jnealon

KoolKid wrote: »

You have to report this to the PSA and whatever certification body this guy is using (if any)
This guy is conning people. He is breaking the law, and if he's not licensed he is also getting his customers to break the law also.
If your not comfortable reporting this then forward the quote to me or one of the other licensed installers here. We would be more than happy to forward on to the relevant authorities .

Whether you report this clown or not is up to you but I would stay well clear of him

altor

Matt406 wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies. Just to clarify this is taken directly from the quote –

“Please note this does not include certification but this is available at additional cost of €350.00 which also includes 3 service calls, registration and associated paperwork but this is not compulsory”

This is not for monitoring (it’s not a monitored system), my understanding of this is that it’s for certification and 3 service calls – which I don’t really understand – why would I need 3 service calls on a new system and does it not come with a guarantee?

I think that “Altor” has hit the nail on the head with -

“Something is not right. I have seen electricians quoting for alarms and then when asked for a cert put it through a certified company. It is wrong but the PSA did nothing about it as they could not get enough evidence.”

The only way the PSA can do anything about this is to have the alarm installed. Then they have evidence for a case against the installer if he is working illegally. If the installer does not install the alarm they have no evidence and just ask for a letter to confirm he does not install alarms. Without getting the alarm installed they won't do anything about it only maybe a phone call if you pass on his number.

KoolKid

They can take a case with a written quotation here.
There are 2 grounds.
1) He is presenting himself for work which he doesn't appear to be licenced for. That in itself is a breach of the act.
2) He is offering to install an uncertified alarm , I'd imagine confirming he's not licenced.
A quote should well be sufficient here. I, for one, am not going to go down the road of not bothering because it might not lead to a conviction.
We all need to do more. We can't complain about lack of enforcement while taking an attitude of why bother.

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

They can take a case with a written quotation here.
There are 2 grounds.
1) He is presenting himself for work which he doesn't appear to be licenced for. That in itself is a breach of the act.
2) He is offering to install an uncertified alarm , I'd imagine confirming he's not licenced.
A quote should well be sufficient here. I, for one, am not going to go down the road of not bothering because it might not lead to a conviction.
We all need to do more./

I do agree with you with regard us having to report an installer but with no evidence of an install plus he is saying it can be certified I would get him to install the system and then report him if there is no cert. With regard us having to do more, that is where the PSA fails as they should be actively doing more about the problem of illegally installed alarm systems, not just relying on us making a case for them.

KoolKid

I think installing the system would be incriminating the customer.
He/She would then be knowingly employing an unlicensed operator.
That is also a breach of the act. It doesn't matter that he offering certification.
What matters is he is offering no certification.
It would be like a plumber without RGI registration trying to sell you an installation of a new boiler.
I agree not enough is being done by the PSA. However people should not neglect to report a crime based on whether a conviction could be obtained.
If you see a robbery taking place you call the Guards. You wouldn't even think about the how likely it is to result in a prosecution. Now im my opinion this guy its breaking the law in a worse way, because he is someone the customer is trusting with the security of their home. Not to mention the fact that€350 for a cert is pretty much robbing the customer anyway.
@Matt .What do you plan to do.

Matt406

Thanks all for your advice. I’m not going to use this guy to install the alarm system. I’m also not going to report him as he is a friend of a friend so it’s not that straight forward in reporting him. I will tell my friend that recommended him to read this thread. Thanks again.

KoolKid

Its your choice whether to report him or not.
I would.
Anyway,Hopefully this thread will make him reconsider his illegal activities.

Matt406

Sorry you feel that way KoolKid. If you look back to my original post price was the only thing that I was questioning. I had no idea that certification was mandatory and that a company must be registered in order to install an alarm system. Having considered all that has been said on this thread I have decided not to use this installer but I don’t see how not reporting the installer is breaking the law? Could you please explain that one to me?


Also I asked for the opinions of contributors to boards.ie - I have no way of knowing if those contributors are professional licensed installers – I can only take what is being said as people’s opinions (i.e.) is the price good or bad.

KoolKid

Sincere apologies matt I read that wrong. Ill delete the above.
I took it up you were using him still.
Obviously its up to you whether to report or take this further. And by ignoring it you are in no way breaking the law.
Maybe this thread will put the brakes on this guys illegal activities. If it does at least we have done some good.

Matt406

Hi All,

I’ve received the quote below from a licensed installer for a Visonic system

Controls:

1 x Wireless Control panel with battery back-up.
1 x Wireless Keypad
2 x Arm/Disarm Fobs

Sounders:

1 x External sounder with strobe light & live flashing led indicator
1 x Internal siren

Detection:

6 x Passive infra-red beams - study, dining, entrance hall, front sitting room, rear sitting room & landing.
3 x Magnetic reed contacts - back door, boiler & front door
3 x Magnetic reed contacts - kitchen 1 (2openings), kitchen 2 (1opening), utility room window (1opening)
2 x Smoke detectors - entrance hall & landing

Quotation:
€1150.00 plus VAT

Any opinions good bad or indifferent on a) the price
b) Visonic system (compared to HKC).

Thanks

KoolKid

That sounds about right considering your getting an extra keypad & 14 devices.
Very little difference between Visonic & HKC. They both conform to EN50131. Some will try confuse you with one / 2way devices claiming better battery life etc. In reality & in my experience I am getting 3 years + on 1 way Visonic devices. Some people are claiming a lot less than that on 2 way HKC systems.
If your looking at 2 way I would look at the Visonic Power G these will give a far longer battery life so it may be worth waiting for their shock sensors to arrive.

altor

Matt406 wrote: »

Hi All,

I’ve received the quote below from a licensed installer for a Visonic system

Controls:

1 x Wireless Control panel with battery back-up.
1 x Wireless Keypad
2 x Arm/Disarm Fobs

Sounders:

1 x External sounder with strobe light & live flashing led indicator
1 x Internal siren

Detection:

6 x Passive infra-red beams - study, dining, entrance hall, front sitting room, rear sitting room & landing.
3 x Magnetic reed contacts - back door, boiler & front door
3 x Magnetic reed contacts - kitchen 1 (2openings), kitchen 2 (1opening), utility room window (1opening)
2 x Smoke detectors - entrance hall & landing

Quotation:
€1150.00 plus VAT

Any opinions good bad or indifferent on a) the price
b) Visonic system (compared to HKC).

Thanks

The price is in around what you would expect to pay for the visonic system. I would still rather see you cover the perimeter rather than contacts on the windows and PIRs to back them up. If an intruder was to take glass out of the window without opening the window then the alarm wont activate unless he was to be picked up by a PIR.

minder2009

Your house is not pre wired I presume.
If so , would get a few more quotes. It is very important to have perimeter protection . I mean shock/ dual sensors in windows in particular. You want an activation when first attempt is made to gain entry. The way that quote works ... They are in when you get activation ... Usually 5 sec delay on dialler .. Could be a lot gone before you know about the alarm going off. Steer clear if not registered with psa. U will get completion cert to en standard psa installer. Be aware gsm jammers are freely available on net and can stop you getting alarm txt. U can enquire about radio relay back up , if tampered , monitoring service will get alert.

Minder

minder2009

KoolKid wrote: »

Its your choice whether to report him or not.
I would.
Anyway,Hopefully this thread will make him reconsider his illegal activities.

Interesting re psa. I got an alarm installed by a certified company registered with psa. Got all the paperwork etc confirming it confirms to the en standard. The panel is in the attic. It is not protected.i was onto the psa about it. I am told they do not inspect individual alarm installations. Serious lack of Interest in it.... Psa...it's a Reputable company there is no question about that. One wonders even if they are properly licensed ie alarm companies , and don't complete to full spec ... And ..psa have no interest ... Spoken to a few alarm guys about it ... Some
say it must be protected others say not .....
Is there a written regulation? If so , where is it !! Seemd it's all hearsay in relation to this particular issue. !! Is psa a moneymaking operation? ... Another state.. Money gathering agency!?
Minder

KoolKid

The control panel must be within the area protected by it.
This is not the PSAs job. Call the certification body that the installer used.
NSAI, EQA SSAIB etc....

minder2009

KoolKid wrote: »

The control panel must be within the area protected by it.
This is not the PSAs job. Call the certification body that the installer used.
NSAI, EQA SSAIB etc....

Thks koolkid for clarification. Nsai certified it says on receipt. Also ... Above spec conforms to is en 50131 standard and amendments.

From what u say it's clearly in breach of this. It's just to contact nsai so Thks
Minder

KoolKid

Yes.
Its a crazy one to leave as its so easily rectified.

minder2009

KoolKid wrote: »

Yes.
Its a crazy one to leave as its so easily rectified.

it will be rectified alright !! Thks

just getting the facts! cheers

KoolKid

Your welcome , lets know how you get on with it.

Thunderbird2

Matt406 wrote: »

Hi All,

I’ve received the quote below from a licensed installer for a Visonic system

Controls:

1 x Wireless Control panel with battery back-up.
1 x Wireless Keypad
2 x Arm/Disarm Fobs

Sounders:

1 x External sounder with strobe light & live flashing led indicator
1 x Internal siren

Detection:

6 x Passive infra-red beams - study, dining, entrance hall, front sitting room, rear sitting room & landing.
3 x Magnetic reed contacts - back door, boiler & front door
3 x Magnetic reed contacts - kitchen 1 (2openings), kitchen 2 (1opening), utility room window (1opening)
2 x Smoke detectors - entrance hall & landing

Quotation:
€1150.00 plus VAT

Any opinions good bad or indifferent on a) the price
b) Visonic system (compared to HKC).

Thanks

Just make sure its on the new 868mhz frequency and not 433mhz as to many devices are working on this

Matt406

Thanks all for your responses.

I’ve a few questions arising from those responses! –

“Some will try confuse you with one / 2way devices claiming better battery life”– is either system better, or is it a case of two ways of doing the same thing? Is one a newer technology?

“I would still rather see you cover the perimeter rather than contacts on the windows and PIRs to back them up. If an intruder was to take glass out of the window without opening the window then the alarm won’t activate unless he was to be picked up by a PIR.” – To cover the perimeter I assume that you’d need sensors on all down stairs windows/doors that have vibration sensors also and don’t just activate when a window is opened? Am I correct in saying that the magnetic reed contacts are only activated when a window/door is opened?

“Just make sure it’s on the new 868 MHz frequency and not 433 MHz as too many devices are working on this” – what’s the difference between these two?

Thanks

KoolKid

Matt406 wrote: »

“Some will try confuse you with one / 2way devices claiming better battery life”– is either system better, or is it a case of two ways of doing the same thing? Is one a newer technology?

With 2 way the panel is able to communicate with the devices as well as the devices transmitting to the panel.
The theory is that the devices will use less power because they don't need to transmit until the panel tell them it's set. In reality it seems to make little difference. The device has to stay awake to listen for commands from the panel.
With one way devices they transmit all open close signals.The main ones that are going to open close a lot are PiRs.However these have their own power save method,if there is constant movement they stop transmitting untill everything is clear for around 1 & half minutes. In my experience there's very little difference.

Matt406 wrote: »

“I would still rather see you cover the perimeter rather than contacts on the windows and PIRs to back them up. If an intruder was to take glass out of the window without opening the window then the alarm won’t activate unless he was to be picked up by a PIR.” – To cover the perimeter I assume that you’d need sensors on all down stairs windows/doors that have vibration sensors also and don’t just activate when a window is opened? Am I correct in saying that the magnetic reed contacts are only activated when a window/door is opened?

Magnetic contacts will only register a Windsor or door opening. Ideally here you would have inertia sensors and contacts on all accessible points of entry.

Matt406 wrote: »

“Just make sure it’s on the new 868 MHz frequency and not 433 MHz as too many devices are working on this” – what’s the difference between these two?

Thanks

Older systems used 433 MHz . This frequency was shared with many other domestic devices.

Matt406

Thanks for that KoolKid.

“Older systems used 433 MHz. This frequency was shared with many other domestic devices. “ – I assume that this old system still works perfectly well? There isn’t any problems with it that the new system corrects?

KoolKid

Its mainly just about interference from other wireless devices.

altor

Matt406 wrote: »

Thanks all for your responses.

I’ve a few questions arising from those responses! –

“Some will try confuse you with one / 2way devices claiming better battery life”– is either system better, or is it a case of two ways of doing the same thing? Is one a newer technology?

Yes, one way is an older technology. Most of the newer systems on the market use the two way technology for there devices. Visonic have also a newer panel on the market that uses this newer technology, The Power-Master. PIRs on the older Powermax systems will go asleep for 2 minutes, not 1 and a half minutes as has being suggested, also if you keep walking in front of a PIR on the powermax complete system the timer will keep resetting meaning you could be moving around in the room all day without the PIR activating. On a two way system the devices are woke up straight away to arm. They don't have to wait for there sleep timer to elapse. If you do go down the route of installing the Visonic trap system I would be looking to have the newer Power-Master installed. With a two way system the devices are controlled from the system rather than setting different links in the devices. The only draw back with the Power-Master at the moment is they have not developed a Inertia/contact for the system. This is a big draw back with any system. There is no date on a release of one but have being told there are in development.

Matt406 wrote: »

“I would still rather see you cover the perimeter rather than contacts on the windows and PIRs to back them up. If an intruder was to take glass out of the window without opening the window then the alarm won’t activate unless he was to be picked up by a PIR.” – To cover the perimeter I assume that you’d need sensors on all down stairs windows/doors that have vibration sensors also and don’t just activate when a window is opened? Am I correct in saying that the magnetic reed contacts are only activated when a window/door is opened?

A contact protecting a window opening will only do what it is designed to do. If an intruder was to smash the glass, cut the glass or take the glass out to gain entry without opening the window then he will enter your premises undetected. It is the case with most trap packs a PIR is off say at night to allow access by the PIR without activating the alarm. Just be careful what way they are set up. In reality a shock sensor or an inertia/contact on a window is always going to provide more protection than just a contact as they are designed to pick up on an intruder trying to gain entry.

Matt406 wrote: »

“Just make sure it’s on the new 868 MHz frequency and not 433 MHz as too many devices are working on this” – what’s the difference between these two?

Thanks

Older systems use this frequency, there are two many devices like remote controls, door bells and so on using this frequency. They can cause interference with an alarm using this frequency. The newer 868 frequency is the one to go for.

KoolKid

Hi Matt,
this is some of the confusion I was referring to.
Not sure what point is being made here as its doing what its supposed to do.

altor wrote: »

. PIRs on the older Powermax systems will go asleep for 2 minutes, not 1 and a half minutes as has being suggested,.

Some have even suggested 3 minutes or more.
Here is a video showing 90 seconds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63FPXaK5kX4

altor wrote: »

also if you keep walking in front of a PIR on the powermax complete system the timer will keep resetting meaning you could be moving around in the room all day without the PIR activating.

That is how the powersave feature works. If you are in a room for 2 hours the PiR will stay asleep for that time. You not going to save much if it sleeps for 90 seconds & then keeps transmitting constantly for the next 119 minutes.

The battery life is saved on one way by the sleep mode . In 2 way the unit ins't really asleep as it is constantly listening for the panels transmissions anyway.
With one way there is no listening required it simply starts transmitting again when ready. Some people claim this is a security risk. In reality your exit time is 20-30 seconds , so that leaves a minute for someone to break in & run in front of your PiR & clear your house out. On top of that they would have had to get there without activating anything else. I've never come across anything close in all my years.

Thunderbird2

When enrolling a new sensor do you not have to wait for it to settle ?

KoolKid

In what sense?
It will work straight after enrolling.

Thunderbird2

When enrolling a new sensor do you not have to wait for it to settle ?

KoolKid

Sorry Thunderbird , I'm not sure what your asking.
Settle in what way?
You can enroll a sensor, close it up come out of engineer & set the alarm & it will work.

Thunderbird2

When you open a sensor to put it into walk test how long before it settles?

KoolKid

It will work once it wakes up again. What point are you making?

Thunderbird2

When you enroll a sensor via tamper is it not in walk test ? How long until it settles?

KoolKid

It is in walk test & it comes out of walk test in a few minutes. The PiR in the video is not one that was newly enrolled & its not in walk test. The walk test is on the panel itself. As this is a one way device it does not know what state the panel is in either way. You can also see at the start of the video that the device is asleep & does not transmit open as I stand in front of it & walk out the door.
Again, what point are you trying to make.?

Thunderbird2

KoolKid wrote: »

It is in walk test & it comes out of walk test in a few minutes. The PiR in the video is not one that was newly enrolled & its not in walk test. The walk test is on the panel itself. As this is a one way device it does not know what state the panel is in either way. You can also see at the start of the video that the device is asleep & does not transmit open as I stand in front of it & walk out the door.
Again, what point are you trying to make.?

Why is the led on if it's closed?

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

Hi Matt,
this is some of the confusion I was referring to.
Not sure what point is being made here as its doing what its supposed to do.
Some have even suggested 3 minutes or more.
Here is a video showing 90 seconds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63FPXaK5kX4

That is how the powersave feature works. If you are in a room for 2 hours the PiR will stay asleep for that time. You not going to save much if it sleeps for 90 seconds & then keeps transmitting constantly for the next 119 minutes.

The battery life is saved on one way by the sleep mode . In 2 way the unit ins't really asleep as it is constantly listening for the panels transmissions anyway.
With one way there is no listening required it simply starts transmitting again when ready. Some people claim this is a security risk. In reality your exit time is 20-30 seconds , so that leaves a minute for someone to break in & run in front of your PiR & clear your house out. On top of that they would have had to get there without activating anything else. I've never come across anything close in all my years.

I have to agree with you on one thing here. There is confusion on this thread and it is coming from you...

The sleep time on a Visonic PIR is 2 minutes.
Here is a video showing the 2 minute timer in action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUat8LA9OWc

The shocking thing is every time the PIR is walked in front of the timer resets.
The alarm is armed from when I arm it till it activates. With a two way system the PIR would be armed.

Your video is misleading. To me it looks like you just learned in the sensor as it is still in walk test mode as you can see from the light on the detector. Again if you knew about the Visonic PIR you would know that once it goes into walk test it needs to settle before you can test it correctly on an armed system.