Bloody mid week confirmations

Morag

So the Dublin diocese is so busy with all the confirmations that there aren't enough stand ins for the bishop, that confirmations are on a weekday.

All the children becoming 'adults' in the RC and undergoing the ceremony get a free day of school, which is not added to the count of absent days for the school year.

Any child in the school who is not being confirmed is expected to be in school, or else have their parents write a note excusing them for the day which gets added to the number of days the child has been absent the school year.

Certainly not equal. This happened two years ago when my son was in 6th and they said it would be reviewed and shock horror it never made it on the agenda of any of the BOM meetings in the last two years.

It is bad enough that for over an hour the last 3 days while the rest of the class went to the church to practice the 3 kids not being confirmed were stuffed in 5th class, and the same will happen for the next 3 days.

As the confirmation is the Thursday, the following Friday those who were confirmed are to arrive in their confirmation clothes and will be visiting the other classes in the school to tell them about it and then the 'class' photo will be taken which will hang in the school, near the offices of them all with their confirmation rosettes.

So even if I wish to take my child to watch the rest of the class be confirmed, I have to add to her count of absent days for the year, of which she can only have 20 before, I as her legal guardian my face a fine.

or the other option is to leave her in the back of a 5th class for the day with all those kids, pestering her questions resenting that the rest of her class is off for the day.

Cherish all children equally my arse!

Zillah

Well maybe you shouldn't put your child in a Catholic school. It has a Catholic ethos.

Morag

I like many other parents in this country didn't have a option of a CE school and 10 years ago there were a lot less of them. And like many other parents we were assured that the school was inclusive and accommodations would be made.

byhookorbycrook

20 days missed does not equal a fine.What do you expect the school to do?

Morag

If a child misses more then 20 days from school even with drs certs then the school is obligated to inform the National Educational Welfare Board.

Which can institute legal proceedings against parents for non attendance which can include a fine and/or a months imprisonment.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/attendance_and_discipline_in_schools/school_attendance.html

byhookorbycrook

`Sharrow, am well aware of NEWB, thanks. The school must submit if a child misses 20 days but then also adds if it is concerned that the child is missing school for no good reason. I know of cases of 50+ days missed (and not for adequate reasons) where nothing has happened as the NEWB is so under resourced. It is somewhat silly therefore to suggest you will be fined if your child takes a day off,as you outline.

In our school if there is say, a hurling match,those not hurling go to other rooms and there is no issue. What is wrong with a child going to another room if you do not want them to attend the church?What do you want instead?Schools do not have spare personnel and rooms for children who are not going hurling/swimming/on a trip/to the church .

Morag

50+ missed and nothing done? That is crazy.
The confirmations should be on a weekend and failing that then the whole class should be excused.

byhookorbycrook

The school has no control over when the confirmations will be held.it's up to the diocese. May is usually busy with communions.

Don't get me started on the NEWB, it was set up with great fanfare and has been rendered toothless due to lack of funding.

sponsoredwalk

Don't school trips leave the kids who can't afford to pay staying back in the school for the entire day??? My god we should ban school trips on school hours as well :mad: Favouritism to the rich!

ANXIOUS

Sharrow wrote: »

50+ missed and nothing done? That is crazy.
The confirmations should be on a weekend and failing that then the whole class should be excused.

Lol, then you would be on giving out that the catholic church expect you to mind your child an extra day a year without getting paid.

Solair

Zillah wrote: »

Well maybe you shouldn't put your child in a Catholic school. It has a Catholic ethos.

So, you'd suggest they educate their kids in one of the many hundreds of non-Catholic Ethos schools that are widely available in every town, village and suburb in the country?

Oh... wait ... only 2.3% of schools are 'multi-denominational' at primary level and almost none at second level.

91.1% of primary schools are Catholic Ethos
5.7% are Church of Ireland.

So, I suppose you'd suggest the OP perhaps emigrates to a sensible country that actually has a public school system? or just gets their kids to commute by helicopter?

For the vast majority of parents in Ireland there is NO CHOICE. You are basically forced, by circumstance and lack of availability to send your kids to a religious school.

goose2005

Sharrow wrote: »

then the 'class' photo will be taken which will hang in the school, near the offices of them all with their confirmation rosettes.

And these are usually the only class photos taken in Irish primary schools; a subtle way of excluding non-Catholics.

Zillah

Solair wrote: »

So, you'd suggest they educate their kids in one of the many hundreds of non-Catholic Ethos schools that are widely available in every town, village and suburb in the country?

Oh... wait ... only 2.3% of schools are 'multi-denominational' at primary level and almost none at second level.

91.1% of primary schools are Catholic Ethos
5.7% are Church of Ireland.

So, I suppose you'd suggest the OP perhaps emigrates to a sensible country that actually has a public school system? or just gets their kids to commute by helicopter?

For the vast majority of parents in Ireland there is NO CHOICE. You are basically forced, by circumstance and lack of availability to send your kids to a religious school.

*reels in*

Now I'll wait for Robin to take issue with the word "ethos"...

byhookorbycrook

goose2005 wrote: »

And these are usually the only class photos taken in Irish primary schools; a subtle way of excluding non-Catholics.

Sorry, this is horse manure.Most schools have the "first day at school photos" and the end of the school year photos for 6th at the very minimum.Class photos have died out,somewhat, in that there are not so many formal photographer ones (and therefore cost to the parent.)
I know in our school at the moment for this year alone, we have had the infant photos, photos of each class at Hallowe'en,photos of concerts etc.There will be a 6th class one at the end of the year-a formal one which can be bought if parents so wish,some do, some don't.

The kind of persecution complex of "we'll be fined if our child doesn't go to school the day of the confimation" and "my child will be excluded from a class photo with all the other non-Catholic children "doesn't do much to add to reasoned debate. Our sacraments are always held at weekends, sometimes children not receiving choose to come, some might choose not to, but it's up to themselves and their parents.

Morag

It's great if that is how things are in your school byhookorbycrook but it's not in the primary school which my children have attended, or many others around the country.

Morag

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Lol, then you would be on giving out that the catholic church expect you to mind your child an extra day a year without getting paid.

What on earth are you on about?

MagicMarker

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

20 days missed does not equal a fine.What do you expect the school to do?

Well, allowing the child to have the day off without penalty would be a good start.

Dades

Sharrow wrote: »

What on earth are you on about?

Well, I can kinda see the point.

Many parents would have more issue with having to take a day off work or whatever because the school sends their non-catholic kid home from school on days like that.

If they didn't do all the sacrament preparation during school hours, I think I could live with a few days during a kids entire school life where the catholics do their thing.

seamus

Dades wrote: »

If they didn't do all the sacrament preparation during school hours, I think I could live with a few days during a kids entire school life where the catholics do their thing.

My main issue here is that the non-Catholic kids' time is being wasted.

If it was a case where the Catholic were being taken out of school and missing a day, that's fine. Let them fall behind. But that's not what's happening - All of the kids are missing a day's schooling in order to accommodate the Catholic faith. The non-Catholics will spend their day sitting in another classroom doing pointless busy work.

The most obvious solution would be to keep the teachers in their respective classes to continue teaching while the church locates their own resources to control 100 kids for the day.
Teachers should not be available for church activities while they're being paid by the state.

Banbh

I have always kept the kids home on the many days when the other kids are marched off to the church. These days are not just the actual ceremony days but the preparation and rehearsal days as well.
I'm waiting for a letter from the Dept of Ed.

byhookorbycrook

Sharrow, I am sorry to hear that what I belive to be the common experience of many schools is not yours.

As to letting a child stay at home "without penalty", schools can't allow children take a day off as you suggest.There was a time when many schools have the Monday off if the sacrament was on a Sunday,no longer allowed. Likewise many schools let 6th finish a day or two early at the end of the school year-again, no longer allowed.

iguana

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Sharrow, I am sorry to hear that what I belive to be the common experience of many schools is not yours.

Sharrow's experience is pretty much run of the mill for smaller schools, especially rural schools, mainly for confirmations. Rural churches can hold communions whenever they want as their parish priests can hold them. But confirmations can only be conducted by the bishop, usually the diocesan bishop or an auxiliary. There aren't enough Saturdays or Sundays in the 'confirmation season' for there to be a bishop available at each school so the bigger schools in the diocese get the weekends and the smaller schools get the weekdays.

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

As to letting a child stay at home "without penalty", schools can't allow children take a day off as you suggest.There was a time when many schools have the Monday off if the sacrament was on a Sunday,no longer allowed. Likewise many schools let 6th finish a day or two early at the end of the school year-again, no longer allowed.

Then the children getting their confirmation on that day shouldn't have the day off without penalty either, should they? And the teachers should most certainly be in class, not off at church.

Banbh

That's it in a nutshell. It is amazing how the religious cannot see that what they do is special treatment.

byhookorbycrook

Iguana,this is the nub of it, is it a school or outside school activity?If it's a Catholic school, does being at the ceremony count as school time?So then, is it a day off?

Many teachers would much prefer to be at school!!!

Banbh, under the special status faith schools have, they are allowed to do this. As long as it is a Catholic school, they may seek to act this way,it may not be right, but it allowed.

Not trying to be argumentative, just interested in the whole question.

Banbh

I know it is allowed but it shouldn't be. It is unjust and discriminatory.

Morag

iguana wrote: »

Sharrow's experience is pretty much run of the mill for smaller schools, especially rural schools, mainly for confirmations. Rural churches can hold communions whenever they want as their parish priests can hold them. But confirmations can only be conducted by the bishop, usually the diocesan bishop or an auxiliary. There aren't enough Saturdays or Sundays in the 'confirmation season' for there to be a bishop available at each school so the bigger schools in the diocese get the weekends and the smaller schools get the weekdays.

We live in a large Dublin Suburb, so it is not just down the country.

Splendour

Sharrow wrote: »

Any child in the school who is not being confirmed is expected to be in school, or else have their parents write a note excusing them for the day which gets added to the number of days the child has been absent the school year.

So why not make your child exempt from making their confirmation? Plenty of kids opt out.

seamus wrote: »

My main issue here is that the non-Catholic kids' time is being wasted.

If it was a case where the Catholic were being taken out of school and missing a day, that's fine. Let them fall behind. But that's not what's happening - All of the kids are missing a day's schooling in order to accommodate the Catholic faith. The non-Catholics will spend their day sitting in another classroom doing pointless busy work.

The most obvious solution would be to keep the teachers in their respective classes to continue teaching while the church locates their own resources to control 100 kids for the day.
Teachers should not be available for church activities while they're being paid by the state.

What bugs me even more so than the waste of time is the fact that most of the parents/children involved are not practicing Catholic so it's all a complete and utter farce. I said this years ago to a priest that this should be done completely through the church where only true believers in this will get involved.

MagicMarker

Splendour wrote: »

So why not make your child exempt from making their confirmation? Plenty of kids opt out.

Huh? She/he has, that's what this thread is all about!

Splendour

MagicMarker wrote: »

Huh? She/he has, that's what this thread is all about!

Ah, I read it as being a problem for siblings of confirmation kids needing the day off. Must read more carefully.


However this...

Sharrow wrote: »

Any child in the school who is not being confirmed is expected to be in school, or else have their parents write a note excusing them for the day which gets added to the number of days the child has been absent the school year.

...would lead me to believe there's no problem sending the child to school as he's not being confirmed.

neemish

Sharrow wrote: »

We live in a large Dublin Suburb, so it is not just down the country.

Surely if you live in a large Dublin suburb, you have more of a choice of what type of School to send your child to? If you were living in rural Connacht, you might have a complaint but you chose to send your child to a Catholic School and to have them continue their education there.

Banbh

Choose? Less than 3% of primary schools in this republic are not controlled by the Catholic Church.

That's no choice at all. And anyway, these 'Catholic' schools are state-funded and should be open to all.

Hotblack Desiato

neemish wrote: »

Surely if you live in a large Dublin suburb, you have more of a choice of what type of School to send your child to?

Not necessarily, there are 6 primary schools in my area, 5 are Catholic.
There are no plans to divest any of them.
The sixth school is CoI and it's the smallest of the lot.
No ET school within miles.

GLaDOS

Zillah wrote: »

Well maybe you shouldn't put your child in a Catholic school. It has a Catholic ethos.

I suspect this comment wasn't supposed to be taken seriously :pac:

Rev Hellfire

If it's such a boo hoo for you just give your kid the day off at home yourself.

MrPudding

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

If it's such a boo hoo for you just give your kid the day off at home yourself.

I think you have miseed one of the major points... If she keeps her child at home it will be marked down as an absence.

MrP

Rev Hellfire

MrPudding wrote: »

I think you have miseed one of the major points... If she keeps her child at home it will be marked down as an absence.

MrP

Nope I'm aware of that, I just don't think its an issue.

Sarky

Well it is putting not getting confirmed on the same level as being sick, or truancy. That's not cool.

MrPudding

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Nope I'm aware of that, I just don't think its an issue.

Well that is awesome that you don't think it's an issue. The OP does, and she is entitled to. Further, as Sarky points out, it gives absence due to not taking part in confirmation a negative connotation. In terms of fairness, it isn't.

Whilst I expect that, in addition to not thinking an absence is an issue ,you probably are that bothered, in this case, with fairness. And clearly you are entitled to that opinion as well, but equally, other are entitled to not be satisfied with that state of affairs.

MrP

Banbh

I often think we atheists etc should have a special day for our kids where we take them to the museum or art gallery and have a talk on reason and science by some prominent atheist celebratory - not unlike that Royal Institute lecture they have in Britain after Christmas.
This, of course, would not be marked down as absent and would be sponsored by the state with grants for parents to rent limos etc.

Banbh

celebratory = celebrity. My keyboard can't bring itself to type the word.

Stercus Accidit

seamus wrote: »

My main issue here is that the non-Catholic kids' time is being wasted.
...

In fairness the catholic kids' time is being wasted too!

zico10

MrPudding wrote: »

I think you have miseed one of the major points... If she keeps her child at home it will be marked down as an absence.

MrP

It probably shouldn't be marked down as an absence, but I think a bigger issue for the NEWB, if they were ever to investigate, would be why the child missed the other 19 days.

Morag

It was today, went to collect her and she could not be found, had been told she was going to be put in a 5th class but as all the 5th classes are the choir for the confirmation and were to be spending the morning practicing she was at the back of a 4th class doing jigsaws.
I literally had to go searching the school, banging on class room doors as the school sectary, principal and vice didn't' know what class she was in.


Thankfully the school year is nearly over, only have to endure the graduation service which due to the fact there are three 6th classes in the school is being held, yup you guessed it, in the church.

padd b1975

Banbh wrote: »

I often think we atheists etc should have a special day for our kids where we take them to the museum or art gallery and have a talk on reason and science by some prominent atheist celebratory - not unlike that Royal Institute lecture they have in Britain after Christmas.
This, of course, would not be marked down as absent and would be sponsored by the state with grants for parents to rent limos etc.

I think you should do that.

Banbh

I will just as soon as I have State power and control of the Budget.

Meanwhile, I'll suggest it to the Humanist Association, as they seem to be getting into the business of marriages and might like to diversify into the educational field.

padd b1975

Banbh wrote: »

I will just as soon as I have State power and control of the Budget.

Meanwhile, I'll suggest it to the Humanist Association, as they seem to be getting into the business of marriages and might like to diversify into the educational field.

It could be something the Minister for Education may want to examine.

Having said that, I thought the general consensus was no link/funding between Government and religion is a good thing, is it not a little hypocritical for an aethist(?) to seek government influence for their idea to keeping children at home?

Sauce for the goose etc etc.

qrrgprgua

goose2005 wrote: »

And these are usually the only class photos taken in Irish primary schools; a subtle way of excluding non-Catholics.

... I have never seen this.. Primary schools take class photos of the WHOLE class and not just confirmation class.

Come on... get your facts straight. My kids get a yearly class photo of all the class every year and its hung outside each class every year on the hall. of all students.. not just catholics.

The class photos are a money maker for the schools. We buy one every year, it would be incredibly ignorant for a school to exclude any child from the photo.


As for confirmation photo... we schools have football team photos, Swimming team... etc..

Sarky

So did you apologise for suggesting the whole hasidic Jew thing in London in the 80s was a lie yet?

Banbh

That would be the case if you thought of atheism as a religion.
What I am suggesting is a link between schoolchildren and education.

It frustrates me that my kids talk about history and geography, English, Irish and the rest, and in every subject there is the same old religious garbage. Baby Jesus and his virgin mother pop up all over the curriculum and not just on the official days spent down in the church. But it's the things that are not taught that are more annoying.

There is no place where I can take the kids aside and say 'actually, this is how the world came about' and 'this is what happened over the past few hundred years', 'this is a more thought-provoking poem or play', 'this is why there are lions and tigers'.

Meanwhile, if anyone can recommend child-friendly websites, movies, DVDs, books, comics or anything to help with the education of my little darlings, I would appreciate it.

Would Educate Together be interested in a summer school, I wonder. They couldn't be accused of being a religion and already have experience in the area. Perhaps I should approach them first.

All advice gratefully received.

flyswatter

goose2005 wrote: »

And these are usually the only class photos taken in Irish primary schools; a subtle way of excluding non-Catholics.

This was never the case in my primary school. None of the class photos on display in the school are communion pictures come to think of it.

Rev Hellfire

Banbh wrote: »

There is no place where I can take the kids aside and say 'actually, this is how the world came about' and 'this is what happened over the past few hundred years', 'this is a more thought-provoking poem or play', 'this is why there are lions and tigers'.

If only there was a place they go after school where you could enlighten them...