"Abject failure" of secularism

mambo

Ireland is fertile ground for Islam, few would disagree. We have witnessed the demise of Catholicism, the abject failures of capitalism and secularism and coupled with the moral vacuum created by aggressive atheism, it doesn't take a genius to see that Ireland needs help, and Islam, we Muslims believe, is the answer.

That Bin Laden, or some other individual, came to the same conclusion is hardly breaking news.

What is surprising though, is Ireland's Ahmadiyya leader Michael Noonan's spurious allegation that there is "a small, militant element of Islam creeping into the country".

This grand assertion is made without reference to evidence and in total contradiction to garda assessments of so-called 'Islamic extremism' in Ireland.

So, one must ask, from whence did he get his information? Islamophobes, aggressive secularists and other opportunists will no doubt jump on the xenophobic bandwagon, seeing the latest Bin Laden 'expose' as another rod with which to beat the backs of Muslims.

But all the finger-pointing, labelling and accusing does not negate the reality that Ireland is in trouble.

Catholicism has failed, secularism has proven disastrous, capitalism has brought our country to its knees and the moral decadence that now permeates Irish society is destroying it from within.

Why not give Islam a chance?

Mujaahid Liam Egan
Wexford

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/ireland-and-islam-3104630.html

Would be interested to know why he regards secularism as an "abject failure" and "disastrous"?

biko

If he is religious, which seems to be the case as he wants to Islamise Ireland, then he will look at the society today and see junkies shooting up in the streets, people not respecting one another and think "these people need religion".

What's scary in my view is that some Irish will agree and convert from one religion to another, stricter, religion.
To some/most/all Muslims the Western world is decadent and it must be saved by submission to Allah.

Since Islam is less compatible with current Western values than Christianity I sincerely hope this doesn't happen in my lifetime but the rate of Muslim births in other countries shows it's just a matter of time before that happens.

vibe666

mambo wrote: »

Would be interested to know why he regards secularism as an "abject failure" and "disastrous"?

i like how he complains that nobody has provided any evidence for arguments against things said about islam, then continues to make bold statements against catholicism and secularism with no evidence to support his claims, but thinks that's okay. :rolleyes:

seamus

He seems to be under the impression that capitalism and secularism go hand-in-hand. That the only kind of economic system you can have in a secular society is a capitalist one.

Indeed, while Islam is incompatible with capitalism, it would be incorrect to say the same of secularism. By definition, secularism is unconcerned with what kind of economic system you have provided that it is not based on religious notions.

"Aggressive secularism" seems to me to be an oxymoron. "Relentless" is probably a better word. Like a glacier creeping across a continent, secularism is unstoppable but it is so slow you barely even notice it happening at all. Aggressive wouldn't describe it well at all.

As far as I'm concerned when it comes to the adoption of secularism in this country, we're only at the tip of the iceberg (pun intended).

vibe666

biko wrote: »

Since Islam is less compatible with current Western values than Christianity I sincerely hope this doesn't happen in my lifetime but the rate of Muslim births in other countries shows it's just a matter of time before that happens.

the only real way to combat the spread of any religion is education and encouraging people to think for themselves.

hopefully the onward march of technology and the global uptake of internet use and free (almost) and open access to all the information the world has to offer will be enough to stem the tide before it reaches a tipping point.

unfortunately, there is also the tidal wave of reality tv shows working to dumb down society as a whole, which unfortunately seems to be working very effectively so far.

Dades

I'd love to know which Islamic society he's holding as a good model to base ours on.

One populated by true Scotsmen, no doubt.

Banbh

Why not give Islam a chance?

Because the punishment for leaving again is death.

theteal

seamus wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned when it comes to the adoption of secularism in this country, we're only at the tip of the iceberg (pun intended).

very much this. for something to be an abject failure, one would have thought that it would have to actually exist as something other than a pipedream of a slowly expanding minority. I know that I've not been here for pretty much a year but I doubt I missed Ireland's transition into a secular society in that time because it certainly wasn't one before I left.

neither capitalism nor secularism have proven to be disastrous

stop talking nonsense mr egan :mad:

Why not give Islam a chance?

Because we don't believe in it? It's not a different type of cake to try :rolleyes:

sbsquarepants

Ireland is fertile ground for Islam, few would disagree

Eh, are you sure?
Without even going into the fact that Ireland is quickly becoming less and less religious in general. Even with the extremely lacksadaisy attitute to the rules that the so called catholic majority here have, selling a newer, stricter religion, that also forbids alcohol? Well, that's going to be one very tough sell indeed!
Whatever Ireland is may be open to debate, but what it certainly is not, is fertile ground for Islam.
And frankly, thank christ for that.



(See what i did there:D)

Banbh

Excellent, and don't forget the rashers.

biko

A bit of digging about the author shows he is a former Irish Christian pastor turned Muslim since living in Yemen and Saudi Arabia, both hardcore religious countries.

He is currently fighting for hijabs in Irish schools http://www.herald.ie/opinion/this-man-is-wrong-about-muslim-rights-1476961.html
Some more here http://gubu-world.blogspot.com/2010/04/liam-egan-and-fascist-mpac.html

Actually the more I read about him the more it seems he doesn't want a moderate flavour of Islam, he wants salafism/wahabism, the most stringent and anti Western styles of Islam.

Sharia4Ireland next I suppose.

Shekinah 14, Shakurah 12, Shakirah 8

those poor children

well he's a convert, that explains a lot

vibe666

Banbh wrote: »

Excellent, and don't forget the rashers.

that, right there will be the start and end of it.

even if he convinces everyone to convert, it'll get to a point where they'll say "right, now all you need to do to finish your conversion to islam is just to give up your rashers, sausages and pudding" and that will be it, over and done with and everyone will just walk away. :pac:

Sarky

Irish people would make terrible Muslims. We'd be even worse at that than we've been at being Catholic. Regular praying? Ha. No alcohol? Yeah, good one. Giving up bacon? Mujaahid Liam Egan can f*ck right off with that suggestion.

Galvasean

So, he writes a letter complaining about secularism, but wants Islam to be introduced to Ireland (which would not be possible without secularism).
Nice.

Banbh

And then there's walking behind your boyfriend (sorry husband, no boyfriends) and not leaving the house without permission and only with a male escort. And dressing up like the nuns who we hated at school.

MrPudding

Banbh wrote: »

And then there's walking behind your boyfriend (sorry husband, no boyfriends) and not leaving the house without permission and only with a male escort. And dressing up like the nuns who we hated at school.

Yeah, but let's face it, it will be the breakfast roll ban than kills it.

MrP

Banbh

Is the not-eating-sausages an article of the Islamic faith or is it just like Catholics not having sex outside of marriage?

joseph brand

I feel sorry for his children. Hopefully they will get a chance to break free of that cult.



Also, I can't believe nobody mentioned sausages. Kearns sausages ftw.

Banbh

The cult with the beard?:D

joseph brand

Banbh wrote: »

The cult with the beard?:D

Weird with the beard.

Sarky

Islam gives beards a bad name.

biko

joseph brand wrote: »

"Oh, hello there. We were just heading out for some camogie practice, care to join us?"

Sarky

He probably converted so he could wear a dress. That's the only reason I can think of to do it, anyway.

biko

Priests wear dresses too. Supposedly they like to have "room"

But notice how this priest shakes the woman's hand? Doesn't happen in Islam.

It is not permissible for a man who believes in Allaah and His Messenger to put his hand in the hand of a women who is not permissible for him or who is not one of his mahrams. Whoever does that has wronged himself (i.e., sinned).

goose2005

biko wrote: »

A bit of digging about the author shows he is a former Irish Christian pastor turned Muslim since living in Yemen and Saudi Arabia, both hardcore religious countries.

He is currently fighting for hijabs in Irish schools http://www.herald.ie/opinion/this-man-is-wrong-about-muslim-rights-1476961.html
Some more here http://gubu-world.blogspot.com/2010/04/liam-egan-and-fascist-mpac.html

Actually the more I read about him the more it seems he doesn't want a moderate flavour of Islam, he wants salafism/wahabism, the most stringent and anti Western styles of Islam.

Sharia4Ireland next I suppose.

Egan is totally bonkers, he used to post on politics.ie as Mujaahid, mostly ranting about de jooz and homos.

Nodin

mambo wrote: »

Would be interested to know why he regards secularism as an "abject failure" and "disastrous"?

...because he hasn't a bogs notion what he's on about, to be blunt. We've a hell of a lot to do before we can say the countrys properly secular, let alone make a judgement on its success or otherwise.

Sarky wrote:

He probably converted so he could wear a dress. That's the only reason I can think of to do it, anyway.

For todays attention-whore, christianity doesn't have the wallop it used to. 'Ye will Burn In Eternal Fire' might get a laugh, but not much else.

However, set up an organisation whose membership consists of your family, their pets and two mates, grow a beard and call 'for The Black Flag Of Islam To Fly' over somewhere and ye'd be beatin them off with the stick. 'Barrys' I call them. The Brits have loads.

GaryBrophy

I love the reason this guy gives for joining Islam. It is like standing at buffet table at because they are out of chicken curry saying why not try the vegetarian option. When will these people learn that if you want someone to join your religion you are going to have to come up with some evidence to support it.

MrPudding

GaryBrophy wrote: »

When will these people learn that if you want someone to join your religion you are going to have to come up with some evidence to support it.

What a silly question... When will they learn they will have to come up with evidence to support their religion before people join it? Are you drunk? If you want people from the A & A board of boards.ie, or Richard Dawkins, or Chrisopher Hitchens PBUH , or anyone that requires an ounce of rationality before they do something then yes, you are correct. But the simple fact that the vast majority of people living on this planet claim to be part of a religion, coupled with the fact that there does not appear to be any rational evidence that any religion is correct would seem to indicate they are not going to have to come up with any evidence to get people to join their religion.

MrP

Sarky

goose2005 wrote: »

Egan is totally bonkers, he used to post on politics.ie as Mujaahid, mostly ranting about de jooz and homos.

Ah, there you go. The logic of "doth protest too much" suggests he's working his way towards converting to Judaism and coming out of the closet.

Galvasean

GaryBrophy wrote: »

When will these people learn that if you want someone to join your religion you are going to have to come up with some evidence to support it.

Considering the letter seems aimed at Catholics who didn't exactly make a decision based on evidence to join the religion they are in now, it probably stands to reason that they won't be looking for evidence when converting to a new one.

nozzferrahhtoo

Isn't that the guy who thinks that you can call one person a "group" and then claim to be speaking on behalf of a "group"? I Thought he and his group's website (that is, his own blog that only he ever wrote on and probably he only read) disappeared from Ireland ages ago?

Or am I mixing him up with another Radical Muslim with a blog in Ireland?

Daftendirekt

I don't think Ireland has much to fear from another religious takeover, least of all an Islamic one.

Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I don't think Irish people, on the whole, are all that religious any more. We do undeniably have a 'culturally Catholic' thing going on, but that's probably in large part down to the RCC's control over our schools.

A few things I think are likely to happen over the next couple of decades:

1. Our education system will become more secular. As this happens, the link between Irishness and Catholicism will fade, though I'd expect this to take a while.

2. Fewer non-Catholics will identify as Catholic, though many will probably hold on to a more vague form of spirituality.

3. The RCC won't disappear entirely, though it will shrink significantly and those who remain with it will be a lot more hard-line.

4. It's quite possible we'll see other more evangelical Christian groups spring up here and there, though I'd be surprised if they gained any major influence.

5. Any attempt to introduce Islam on a mass scale will fail hilariously (not that I think we're likely to see such an attempt). We're slowly moving towards modernity and liberalism and the idea that we'd could suddenly do a U-turn on that and go back to an even more oppressive form of theocracy is laughable. Also, no breakfast rolls or piss-ups - ha.

Pure guesswork obviously, but if we could get our economy sorted out, I'd be fairly optimistic about this country's future

ShooterSF

I might convert come November for a month. It seems Mohammad's one real power is to make an Irish man grow proper facial hair!

Sarky

Also, anyone else thinking of Four Lions?

recedite

Nodin wrote: »

For todays attention-whore, christianity doesn't have the wallop it used to. 'Ye will Burn In Eternal Fire' might get a laugh, but not much else.

Yep....here's Barry, who thinks the imported Islamists aren't militant enough



And here's Jihad Jane who sadly had to leave us.

mambo

A reply in today's paper:

Liam Egan (Letters, May 11) cites "the moral vacuum created by aggressive atheism" as a reason why Ireland should "give Islam a chance".

Perhaps Mr Egan can enlighten the poor amoral atheists of Ireland as to the punishment in Islam for apostasy.

Gary J Byrne
IFSC, Dublin 1

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/islam-and-ireland-3107930.html

Galvasean

55 seconds in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQzuFrMRA3M

Look at him squirm! :pac:

Nodin

recedite wrote: »

Yep....here's Barry, who thinks the imported Islamists aren't militant enough


And here's Jihad Jane who sadly had to leave us.

Yes, it's touching to see that Jihad has a place for mentally ill alcoholics amongst its ranks. It's truly a broad mosque.

vibe666

so, things on the todo list to bring islam to the irish people.

1. convince 4 million odd people to give up drink
2. convince 4 million odd people to give up pork/rashers/pudding products
3. convince 4 million odd people islam is a religion of love
4. kill them if they try to leave

shouldn't be too difficult. after all, there's already beef bacon so we're half way there!

Banbh

Also,
5. convince 2 million odd people to walk behind the other 2
6. convince 2 million odd people that they can't go out
7. convince 2 million odd people that they may only wear a tent
8. convince 2 million odd people that they are lower than beasts

vibe666

i almost forgot.

9. convince 2 million odd people that they can't drive.

Galvasean

Banbh wrote: »

Also,
5. convince 2 million odd people to walk behind the other 2
6. convince 2 million odd people that they can't go out
7. convince 2 million odd people that they may only wear a tent
8. convince 2 million odd people that they are lower than beasts

vibe666 wrote: »

i almost forgot.

9. convince 2 million odd people that they can't drive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaoM9_FnmvE

legspin

Banbh wrote: »

Also,
5. convince 2 million odd people to walk behind the other 2
6. convince 2 million odd people that they can't go out
7. convince 2 million odd people that they may only wear a tent
8. convince 2 million odd people that they are lower than beasts

[perv]
I have no problem walking two paces behind any woman
[/perv]

Coriolanus

MrPudding wrote: »

What a silly question... When will they learn they will have to come up with evidence to support their religion before people join it? Are you drunk? If you want people from the A & A board of boards.ie, or Richard Dawkins, or Chrisopher Hitchens PBUH , or anyone that requires an ounce of rationality before they do something then yes, you are correct. But the simple fact that the vast majority of people living on this planet claim to be part of a religion, coupled with the fact that there does not appear to be any rational evidence that any religion is correct would seem to indicate they are not going to have to come up with any evidence to get people to join their religion.

MrP

I know you said it in jest, but that is one of the most profoundly depressing statements I've read in a while.

TwoShedsJackson

On the upside women wouldn't be allowed to drive, surely that has to be worth at least considering giving up pork and alcohol?

Banbh

And sex.

TwoShedsJackson

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

On the upside women wouldn't be allowed to drive, surely that has to be worth at least considering giving up pork and alcohol?

:mad:

fatmammycat

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

On the upside women wouldn't be allowed to drive, surely that has to be worth at least considering giving up pork and alcohol?

Are we in after hours?

fatmammycat

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Isn't that the guy who thinks that you can call one person a "group" and then claim to be speaking on behalf of a "group"? I Thought he and his group's website (that is, his own blog that only he ever wrote on and probably he only read) disappeared from Ireland ages ago?

Or am I mixing him up with another Radical Muslim with a blog in Ireland?

No that's him, he's also the 'gotomuslim' the papers like to use as he is always available for a ridiculous soundbite.