Break up of DAA

liammur

Shannon Airport is to become independent of Dublin Airport, and Cork will remain as part of the group. Seeing as Shannon's passenger numbers in recent years have collapsed, it can't be a bad thing and may foster competition. Is this a good move for Irish airports ?


http://www.rte.ie/aertel/104-01.html

Neworder79

They've stated that Cork isn't being split, they are also going to rename the DAA. Probably something like the Irish Airport Debt Resolution Corporation.

liammur

Neworder79 wrote: »

They've stated that Cork isn't being split, they are also going to rename the DAA. Probably something like the Irish Airport Debt Resolution Corporation.

That's interesting, did they give a reason why cork isn't being split? Ok, edited the thread about cork, thanks neworder.

munchkin_utd

Neworder79 wrote: »

They've stated that Cork isn't being split, they are also going to rename the DAA. Probably something like the Irish Airport Debt Resolution Corporation.

not far off it.
According to this Article the DAA has €750 million of debt, of which €220 is due to Cork Airport and €100 million to shannon.

Aparantly Cork isnt being split as its doing fine at the moment according to a report the minister got a couple of months back which recommended Shannon (only) being spun off
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0229/shannon.html

AngryLips

I think Cork has quite a large debt from building the new terminal and that's not something it can carry on it's own. Regardless, the increased competition between Cork and Shannon can only be a good thing.

Neworder79

the increased competition between Cork and Shannon can only be a good thing.

Yes good for the travelling public and taxpayer. But will the DAA now be open to transatlantic flights from Cork? If so watch the new 'free' independent Shannon revert to demanding the Government protect 'their' flights.

Sponge Bob

Shannons future is largely maintenance training logistics and cargo. Passenger traffic will be a niche activity.

liammur

Neworder79 wrote: »

Yes good for the travelling public and taxpayer. But will the DAA now be open to transatlantic flights from Cork? If so watch the new 'free' independent Shannon revert to demanding the Government protect 'their' flights.

Very doubtful. Last Government couldn't even keep aer lingus from moving flights to belfast to service heathrow.

AngryLips

liammur wrote: »

Very doubtful. Last Government couldn't even keep aer lingus from moving flights to belfast to service heathrow.

And, of course, for the Government to do anything of the sort wouldn't be desirable; it would only have a distorting effect on competition.

AngryLips

AngryLips wrote: »

And, of course, for the Government to do anything of the sort wouldn't be desirable; it would only have a distorting effect on competition.

Giving shannon a 100 million debt write off by the taxpayer has a distorting effect on competition with Knock, Yet the government went with it. Don't underestimate there stupidity, they seem to like rewarding incompetence.

troposphere

liammur wrote: »

That's interesting, did they give a reason why cork isn't being split? Ok, edited the thread about cork, thanks neworder.

From the report [link] that was issued a few months ago

The book value of the assets at Cork Airport and its long term earnings potential is viewed by the DAA as being critical to securing the DAA's debt position. Booz supported this view since the existing arrangements provided the DAA and it major lenders with the greatest level of security for maintaining the the level of borrowing that is included in the current business plan.

bk

In other words Cork is a very profitable and valuable airport.

Could you imagine how successful Cork could be if it was also spun off (even with it's own debt) and left to compete aggressively, including maybe some Transatlantic Routes. It would probably finish off Shannon completely.

liammur

bk wrote: »

In other words Cork is a very profitable and valuable airport.

Could you imagine how successful Cork could be if it was also spun off (even with it's own debt) and left to compete aggressively, including maybe some Transatlantic Routes. It would probably finish off Shannon completely.

Shannon was at a huge disadvantage under the DAA e.g Aer Lingus wanted it's Paris flight to leave early in the morning, for business etc, but the DAA said no, had to be a late flight. They ended pulling the flight.

Can we get any more uncompetitive than this?

liammur

AngryLips wrote: »

And, of course, for the Government to do anything of the sort wouldn't be desirable; it would only have a distorting effect on competition.

The funny thing is, few in belfast took the flight up and Aer Lingus had no other option but to the bring the flight back to shannon. How humiliating for both company and government.

markpb

liammur wrote: »

Shannon was at a huge disadvantage under the DAA e.g Aer Lingus wanted it's Paris flight to leave early in the morning, for business etc, but the DAA said no, had to be a late flight. They ended pulling the flight.

Got a link for that - I'm not doubting you but I can't see why the DAA would have any say in the flight times.

liammur

markpb wrote: »

Got a link for that - I'm not doubting you but I can't see why the DAA would have any say in the flight times.

I heard that on the radio yesterday during a discussion on the topic. Shouldn't be impossible to find out 1 way or another.

antoobrien

markpb wrote: »

Got a link for that - I'm not doubting you but I can't see why the DAA would have any say in the flight times.

I can't remember, did Aerlingus move all flights from Shannon or just some of them?

AngryLips

Deleted User wrote: »

Giving shannon a 100 million debt write off by the taxpayer has a distorting effect on competition with Knock, Yet the government went with it. Don't underestimate there stupidity, they seem to like rewarding incompetence.

And leaving Shannon with the debt would almost certainly sink Shannon ...not exactly good for competition either.

bk wrote: »

In other words Cork is a very profitable and valuable airport.

Actually quite the opposite, Cork Airport has double the amount of debt than Shannon but is only a third higher in terms of passenger numbers.

Trans-Atlantic is never going to happen from Cork with Shannon only down the road. Aer Lingus may have scaled back longhaul from Shannon but other airlines have increased it. It's an established market from the US and Cork would be up against that.

liammur

antoobrien wrote: »

I can't remember, did Aerlingus move all flights from Shannon or just some of them?

They scaled back flights between America & shannon, and after the belfast flight was a complete flop, they had no option but to reinstate it, egg on their faces after that fiasco.

antoobrien

liammur wrote: »

They scaled back flights between America & shannon, and after the belfast flight was a complete flop, they had no option but to reinstate it, egg on their faces after that fiasco.

Sorry, I was talking specifically about flights to heathrow.

So to answer my own question, yes they did stop all flights to heathrow. The route resumed 3 years ago.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1222/aerlingus.html

liammur

antoobrien wrote: »

Sorry, I was talking specifically about flights to heathrow.

So to answer my own question, yes they did stop all flights to heathrow. The route resumed 3 years ago.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1222/aerlingus.html[/QUOTE]

Yes, that's correct. The business community were up in arms because they had no connectivity.

L1011

AngryLips wrote: »

Actually quite the opposite, Cork Airport has double the amount of debt than Shannon but is only a third higher in terms of passenger numbers.

Cork has a brand new terminal to account for that. Shannon's debt is from years of losses and some work to improve its quite old terminal.

lucernarian

If Cork had the length in runway it needs then transatlantic flights could easily happen. May just be limited to New York though with demand etc. So not really worth spending lots of money on.

And yes, the DAA are a remarkably incompetent organisation beyond preserving their own job roles and doing those proberly. They're completely inflexible when it comes to other businesses working in the airport and the facilities they have to provide. I won't start on the layout of trying to walk in or out of T2 to anywhere else!

Stinicker

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

If Cork had the length in runway it needs then transatlantic flights could easily happen. May just be limited to New York though with demand etc. So not really worth spending lots of money on.

Could the Boeing 787 manage it? It is pretty stupid that Ireland's second City Cork is not connected to the US, it is almost as convenient to drive from Cork to Dublin Airport as it is to drive to Shannon from Cork when you consider the bohereen dirt-track of an excuse that is the N20 of a road between the two cities. Knock Airport is the future for the West and Shannon unless it gets its act together might aswell close.

AngryLips

Stinicker wrote: »

Could the Boeing 787 manage it? It is pretty stupid that Ireland's second City Cork is not connected to the US, it is almost as convenient to drive from Cork to Dublin Airport as it is to drive to Shannon from Cork when you consider the bohereen dirt-track of an excuse that is the N20 of a road between the two cities. Knock Airport is the future for the West and Shannon unless it gets its act together might aswell close.

In fairness, how many other European cities with the same population as Cork are able to sustain a transatlantic service?

Stinicker

AngryLips wrote: »

In fairness, how many other European cities with the same population as Cork are able to sustain a transatlantic service?

Reykjavik in Iceland does. Cork airport serves Munster and would serve Munster better than Shannon does, while those in North Tipp and Waterford maybe more inclined to fly from Dublin.

Knock serves the entire western coast nicely and North too, Shannon will have nothing going for it unless the roads into it are improved, M20 and Motorway north of Gort.

dowlingm

Keflavik is the only international airport in Iceland. (Reykjavik is a domestic airport only).

Cork is the third largest airport in the Republic of Ireland and either 4th or 5th largest on the island. DUB and SNN have US customs, ORK don't. Bit of a difference no?

AngryLips

AngryLips wrote: »

In fairness, how many other European cities with the same population as Cork are able to sustain a transatlantic service?

Knock did fly to Boston and New York untill Flyglobespan went bust a couple of years ago. Some talk of new routes to USA but i think Knock would be better sticking to European flights.

Stinicker

Stinicker wrote: »

Reykjavik in Iceland does. Cork airport serves Munster and would serve Munster better than Shannon does, while those in North Tipp and Waterford maybe more inclined to fly from Dublin.

Knock serves the entire western coast nicely and North too, Shannon will have nothing going for it unless the roads into it are improved, M20 and Motorway north of Gort.

If the M20 is completed it would actually take custom from Shannon as there is already a motorway from as far south as Adare right to SNN. A new M20 would have increasing Limerick and north Kerry people using Cork. It also already has good motorway access to the East. The Government and SNN lobby do appear to have given it every chance to succeed even giving it 100 million write off of taxpayers money recently(which was IMO will be used as a disadvantage to Cork and Knock and is completely anti-competitive).
SNN is simply in the wrong place unlike Knock It doesn't serve the west as DUB is closer than SNN for all the northwest and Cork serves the South.

bk

dowlingm wrote: »

Cork is the third largest airport in the Republic of Ireland and either 4th or 5th largest on the island. DUB and SNN have US customs, ORK don't. Bit of a difference no?

Cork is the second largest airport in the Republic and the fourth largest on the island by passenger figures.

Cork international passenger figures are up (total figures were down 2% for 2011 due to the lose of the Cork to Dublin route, but that is a once off). Shannon was down 37% in 2010 and 7.4% in 2011.

The agreement for US customs applies to all Irish airports, so US customs could be moved to Cork if TA flights moved to there.

Realistically there should really be only one TA airport in a country the size of Ireland and that would obviously be Dublin. If you are going to have a second, Cork makes a lot more sense then Shannon.

The only limiting factor at Cork is the length of the runway and therefore the ability to handle larger TA aircraft. There are plans to rectify this in due course.

L1011

bk wrote: »

The agreement for US customs applies to all Irish airports, so US customs could be moved to Cork if TA flights moved to there..

US CBP *may* (I've not used the new terminal) require significant changes to the fabric of the terminal, as it requires dedicated gates and a separate secure zone.

It would cost vast quantities of money to do changes of this kind if required - which is why T1 in DUB kept its old partial pre-clearance until T2 was built.

dowlingm

bk wrote: »

The only limiting factor at Cork is the length of the runway and therefore the ability to handle larger TA aircraft. There are plans to rectify this in due course.

How about Cat III ILS to deal with the frequent fogs which happen when you have an airport on top of a hill? Oh right there's the problem of that it's on the top of a hill and therefore CAT III installation is a massive undertaking, plus there's the likely need to extend 07/25 or face several crosswind diversions - the hairiest landing I've ever been in was an EI A321 onto 17/35 - if those wind weren't just inside limits for a 321 I never want to see one that are closer to them.

I'm from Cork. There's nothing I'd like better than to be able to fly into Cork direct rather than schlep to Dublin, Shannon or pay the LHR tax. But the amount of cash required to make ORK a decent alternative to DUB (assuming SNN closed) for diversions and scheduled TA ops would write off SNN's and ORK's debts in all likelihood. DAA made a balls of the ORK redevelopment, with the money they spent the new terminal could and probably should have had provision for separate immigration/customs "just in case" not to mention a goddamned set of airbridges working when it opened but what there is there is.

For me, Ireland's priorities should be the second runway at DUB (get it built now while the Portmarnock set are financially distressed and hopefully won't be able to hire more than a company of lawyers rather than the battalion they could have afforded in the Tiger era), closing Baldonnel and moving Air Corps HQ and fixed wing ops to Shannon and improving connectivity between the airports that probably can work (NOC, SNN, ORK, DUB, maybe KIR, maybe CFN) and discontinuing support to everywhere else.

If I was ORK management I'd be more worried about Aircoach than SNN, perhaps approaching them with a view to supporting the extension of Dublin-Cork stopping services to ORK (and thereby allowing Aircoach to fund reinstating a few of those replaced by Expresses) and after that looking at a Waterford service (which could also service the commuter market to the airport business park in the N25 corridor)