No Insurance

kristian12

Before anyone gives out it was a genuine mistake and we know it was a stupid one , my 18yr old brother was insured on my dads insurance. He was stopped tonight on the way home and it turns out the insurance was cancelled last mnth and because we have moved we were never notified there was a problem with the payments and Dad stupidly saw insurance payments coming out of account and never checked which vehicles it was for. Apparantly they'd sent letters out saying a payment was missing and if it wasn't caught up they'd cancel.

Anyway my brother was stopped tonight and had the car impounded, Mom phoned the gard station and they said we need to get insurance and go and get the car paying €125 impound fee.

Our question is what will happen to my brother now and will my dad be in trouble for letting him drive uninsured??

MugMugs

He may well be done for no insurance and your dad isn't responsible for his sons actions.

thebiglad

Being 18 with a conviction for driving with no insurance, it is gonna be very expensive to get insurance for a few years!

If you are summonsed for the offense probably best to get a lawyer but seems cut and dried case.

kristian12

Thanks Mugmugs, unfortunatly it'll be brother paying for dads actions as he really did think he was insured (and so did Dad) or he'd never have driven it. Dad is normally paranoid about things on the car and he wouldn't even park on the road or drive to get his tax or insurance if it ran out that day.

Feel sorry for the brother having points on his license so young, i presume its a court appearance as well? If so will the appearance be in the area he was stopped or where we live?

TheBiglad, thanks we were afraid of that but we can't dispute it or blame anybody else but ourselves, we should have notified insurance company of change of address.

MugMugs

kristian12 wrote: »

Thanks Mugmugs, unfortunatly it'll be brother paying for dads actions as he really did think he was insured (and so did Dad) or he'd never have driven it. Dad is normally paranoid about things on the car and he wouldn't even park on the road or drive to get his tax or insurance if it ran out that day.

Feel sorry for the brother having points on his license so young, i presume its a court appearance as well? If so will the appearance be in the area he was stopped or where we live?

TheBiglad, thanks we were afraid of that but we can't dispute it or blame anybody else but ourselves, we should have notified insurance company of change of address.

Sorry, I mis read your initial post. Seems a bit tough on your brother alright.

To be fair, if you can compile your case.... Certs of Insurance etc and approach the Garda with both your brother and father and explain your case you may well be better off doing so.

As much as your father might feel guilty, your brother was responsible for the change of address (this can actually affect a claim on the policy) and really should have moved the motors over to the new address.

My advice, get your stuff together to show your brother has always been insured as well as your father and explain the error to the Garda and see what he / she says and wants to do about it.

Odds are it's already been processed but come Court day the Garda could appeal to the judge on your brothers behalf.

P_1

The letter from the insurance company should have been sent by registered post, first thing for you to do is to check that it was.

If it turns out that it wasn't you, your brother or your dad should get onto the III.

MidlandsM

thebiglad wrote: »

Being 18 with a conviction for driving with no insurance, it is gonna be very expensive to get insurance for a few years!

If you are summonsed for the offense probably best to get a lawyer but seems cut and dried case.

or to emigrate..........it can affect visa applications etc.

MugMugs

pithater1 wrote: »

The letter from the insurance company should have been sent by registered post, first thing for you to do is to check that it was.

If it turns out that it wasn't you, your brother or your dad should get onto the III.

It actually doesn't. The Insurer just has to prove that they made all reasonable attempts to contact the Insured.

One would assume that a phone call probably could have prevented all of this though.

kristian12

MugMugs wrote: »

Sorry, I mis read your initial post. Seems a bit tough on your brother alright.

To be fair, if you can compile your case.... Certs of Insurance etc and approach the Garda with both your brother and father and explain your case you may well be better off doing so.

As much as your father might feel guilty, your brother was responsible for the change of address (this can actually affect a claim on the policy) and really should have moved the motors over to the new address.

My advice, get your stuff together to show your brother has always been insured as well as your father and explain the error to the Garda and see what he / she says and wants to do about it.

Odds are it's already been processed but come Court day the Garda could appeal to the judge on your brothers behalf.

Thanks I'll get them to do that tonight and they can take it down when they go and get the car back tomorrow. Dad has now advised the insurance company of the change of address over the phone tonight when he phoned to ask what was happening.

pithater1 wrote: »

The letter from the insurance company should have been sent by registered post, first thing for you to do is to check that it was.

If it turns out that it wasn't you, your brother or your dad should get onto the III.

Ok thanks i'll get dad to pop to old address before he goes to gards tomorrow and ask.

MidlandsM wrote: »

or to emigrate..........it can affect visa applications etc.

What?? :eek::eek: Where? A motoring offence doesn't count for America, i know this as i've just filled in esta forms and it says clearly motoring offences are not cause for needing a visa and you can travel under the visa waiver scheme. And if you have motoring offences they are not taken into account when applying for visa.

P_1

MugMugs wrote: »

It actually doesn't. The Insurer just has to prove that they made all reasonable attempts to contact the Insured.

One would assume that a phone call probably could have prevented all of this though.

Anything to do with policy cancellation has to be sent registered and needs to be signed for for the insurer to prove that they have made all reasonable attempts to contact the insured.

Of course the fact that the insured has failed to notify the insurer of their change of address may make this null and void.

P_1

kristian12 wrote: »

Thanks I'll get them to do that tonight and they can take it down when they go and get the car back tomorrow. Dad has now advised the insurance company of the change of address over the phone tonight when he phoned to ask what was happening.



Ok thanks i'll get dad to pop to old address before he goes to gards tomorrow and ask.



What?? :eek::eek: Where? A motoring offence doesn't count for America, i know this as i've just filled in esta forms and it says clearly motoring offences are not cause for needing a visa and you can travel under the visa waiver scheme. And if you have motoring offences they are not taken into account when applying for visa.

Check with An Post too.

MugMugs

pithater1 wrote: »

Anything to do with policy cancellation has to be sent registered and needs to be signed for for the insurer to prove that they have made all reasonable attempts to contact the insured.

Of course the fact that the insured has failed to notify the insurer of their change of address may make this null and void.

Sorry to be a pedant, but I had a splendid argument with the FSA a few years ago over this.

Liberty seem to be flavor of the month around here at the moment so I will quote their policy.

3. We may choose to cancel the policy, without giving you a reason, by sending
you 10 days’ written notice to your last known address. We will refund
your premium for any period of insurance remaining. You must return to us
immediately your certificate of insurance and insurance disc to avoid any
action we may take against you to recover them.

But sure what do the Americans know....

Let's talk to AXA.

We, or our authorised agent, may cancel this policy by giving you 10 days’
notice in writing. We will send any notice to your last known address and we
must tell the Department of Transport. You must then send us the insurance
disc and certificate of insurance.

The argument that I had with the FSA was that my employer at the time said "Recorded Delivery" We debated the difference between that and registered.

Registered has to be signed for..... Recorded means we just have to show that it went.

What you're actually saying is that I can give a dud address, default on payments, ignore the "registered letters" coming in the dud addresses door and stay insured without paying for it. Which I believe could be seen as a "Moral Hazard"?

P_1

Fair enough, was just going on my past work experience in the AA, course they could've just been feeding me bull (that really wouldn't surprise me, but that's another day's rant).

Best people for the OP to chase this with will be the IBA, III or any of the other insurance industry regulators/organisations. It may depend on the individual insurer, just depends on what is in his fine print.

OP out of interest, what insurer was the policy with and do you have access to your policy booklet?

ravima

all insurers bar one, (Quinn) send letters of cancellation by registered post. If you don't collect/sign for it, that's your problem. Insurer must prove that they sent the letter, not that you failed to collect.

Driver is uninsured and must bear the consequences. Owner could be prosecuted for giving uninsured car to driver.

Driver should make a case to insurer when getting quote that he is trying to do the right thing now and should not be punished for the conviction, especially in the circumstances.

On a slightly different topic, how many vehicles does your father have, and are they all with same company? That may assist when getting quote for the others. I presume that vehicles are not simply insured in fathers name to get cheaper premium for children.

coylemj

MugMugs wrote: »

He may well be done for no insurance and your dad isn't responsible for his sons actions.

Wrong. Owner and driver are equally culpable when a person drives a car with the permission of the owner and is not insured.

56.—(1) A person (in this subsection referred to as the user) shall not use in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle unless either a vehicle insurer, a vehicle guarantor or an exempted person would be liable for injury caused by the negligent use of the vehicle by him at that time or there is in force at that time either—

(2)

(3) Where a person contravenes subsection (1) of this section, he and, if he is not the owner of the vehicle, such owner shall each be guilty of an offence

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0056.html#sec56

Tigger

kristian12 wrote: »

Before anyone gives out it was a genuine mistake and we know it was a stupid one , my 18yr old brother was insured on my dads insurance. He was stopped tonight on the way home and it turns out the insurance was cancelled last mnth and because we have moved we were never notified there was a problem with the payments and Dad stupidly saw insurance payments coming out of account and never checked which vehicles it was for. Apparantly they'd sent letters out saying a payment was missing and if it wasn't caught up they'd cancel.

Anyway my brother was stopped tonight and had the car impounded, Mom phoned the gard station and they said we need to get insurance and go and get the car paying €125 impound fee.

Our question is what will happen to my brother now and will my dad be in trouble for letting him drive uninsured??

can the garda check that stuff now?
i thoiught they look at the disc and sometimes ask to see the cert
both would have been there still wouldn't they

MugMugs

MugMugs wrote: »

Sorry, I mis read your initial post. Seems a bit tough on your brother alright.

coylemj wrote: »

Wrong. Owner and driver are equally culpable when a person drives a car with the permission of the owner and is not insured.

Some day, just some day.... you'll read the thread through first. :rolleyes:

coylemj

MugMugs wrote: »

Some day, just some day.... you'll read the thread through first. :rolleyes:

Pot, kettle?

MugMugs wrote: »

Sorry, I mis read your initial post.

And you never bothered to correct your initial claim that the father isn't liable, he is.

MugMugs

kristian12

pithater1 wrote: »

OP out of interest, what insurer was the policy with and do you have access to your policy booklet?

Policy is with Aviva and we are positive it was active up until April as the last payment came out of bank on 31st March. It was only taxed in March and NCT'd last week.

ravima wrote: »

Driver is uninsured and must bear the consequences. Owner could be prosecuted for giving uninsured car to driver.

Driver should make a case to insurer when getting quote that he is trying to do the right thing now and should not be punished for the conviction, especially in the circumstances.

On a slightly different topic, how many vehicles does your father have, and are they all with same company? That may assist when getting quote for the others. I presume that vehicles are not simply insured in fathers name to get cheaper premium for children.

No he's not just on it for cheaper insurance as i've said Dad is normally a straight by the book guy and he'd be worried they'd find out. We're worried Dads going to be in trouble as well.

Dad has work van and the car, brother is (was:o) insured on the car and the van is open policy but because of his age it doesn't cover brother. Dad uses the car as well because its cheaper than the van to run around in and brother only had it today cus he had his first college exam.

Tigger wrote: »

can the garda check that stuff now?
i thoiught they look at the disc and sometimes ask to see the cert
both would have been there still wouldn't they

Yes the disc and cert were both there, he'd gone through a stop check fine and was 10mins down the road and a gard car came up behind him and said it was showing as no insurance and it turns out they were right so they must be able to tell.

kristian12

kristian12 wrote: »

Yes the disc and cert were both there, he'd gone through a stop check fine and was 10mins down the road and a gard car came up behind him and said it was showing as no insurance and it turns out they were right so they must be able to tell.

A simple reg check can check for tax and insurance

UnknownSpecies

Just on the point of notification being sent by registered post, I had a thread up here about a week ago on the matter. They did send me notification of cancellation twice in the same week by registered post. I'm with Aviva btw.

kristian12

dorgasm wrote: »

Just on the point of notification being sent by registered post, I had a thread up here about a week ago on the matter. They did send me notification of cancellation twice in the same week by registered post. I'm with Aviva btw.

Thanks, not saying they did or didn't cus we don't know if they did it went to the old address cus Dad never changed the details.

makesmeLOL

kristian12 wrote: »

Thanks, not saying they did or didn't cus we don't know if they did it went to the old address cus Dad never changed the details.

To be fair, your dad sounds a bit dim.

UnknownSpecies

Not fair tbh, sounds like an honest oversight. Probably had a lot more on bis mind with a move ongoing...

P_1

OP get onto Aviva 1st thing in the morning and get the following information from them:

1 - When did they recieve the last payment.
2 - What period did that payment cover.
3 - When did the policy go into arrears
4 - Were there any previous missed payments
5 - When did they send notification that the policy was to be cancelled
6 - What date was the policy cancelled

Jimdagym

makesmeLOL wrote: »

To be fair, your dad sounds a bit dim.

Fantastic contribution.

Stainless_Steel

Sorry to hijack OP but I have a question re insurance and change of address.

If I move out of the parents house for college purposes (say 10 months of the year) do I have to notify insurer of my new address? Not receiving their letters wouldn't be an issue given my folks are at home.

Jimdagym

Stainless_Steel wrote: »

Sorry to hijack OP but I have a question re insurance and change of address.

If I move out of the parents house for college purposes (say 10 months of the year) do I have to notify insurer of my new address? Not receiving their letters wouldn't be an issue given my folks are at home.

Absolutely tell them. Your insurance quote is partially based on where you live, so they need to know ( I'm assuming the policy is in your own name).

Marcusm

Your brother needs to have a good solicitor and maybe someone needs to make representations to the guards in advance of the court date; absence of insurance is a "strict liability" offence meaning that it doesn't matter if he didn't know or intend to do wrong. However, in the circumstances where he wouldn't even have been the recipient of the cancelation letter, a conviction woud seem particularly harsh. A good instance for the Gardai to exercise prosecutorial discretion. If they choose to move forward anyway, still good to have solicitor to seek a striking out or other Rish solution to the problem.

Driving without insurance is always wrong but it is harder to find circumstances where prosecution is not warranted.

kristian12

Dad got the car back today. He phoned Aviva and they said the policy had been cancelled as of 8th April and there was nothing they could do apart from confirm he had been fully insured with them up until a mnth before as it was our responibility to check, not that we really expected them to be helpful.

Gard was off duty at the time of collecting car so Dad explained the details to the on duty gard who wasn't really interested i suppose they've heard all sorts of excuses. They just said if the gard needed to get in touch with us he would call.

Brother and dad now fully insured and policy paid in full to make sure no more mistakes

Thanks for all the helpful advice.

P_1

kristian12 wrote: »

Dad got the car back today. He phoned Aviva and they said the policy had been cancelled as of 8th April and there was nothing they could do apart from confirm he had been fully insured with them up until a mnth before as it was our responibility to check, not that we really expected them to be helpful.

Gard was off duty at the time of collecting car so Dad explained the details to the on duty gard who wasn't really interested i suppose they've heard all sorts of excuses. They just said if the gard needed to get in touch with us he would call.

Brother and dad now fully insured and policy paid in full to make sure no more mistakes

Thanks for all the helpful advice.

Can't see how they could have cancelled the policy on the 8th of April if the last payment went through on the 31st of March though. For your brother's sake, you really need to investigate further with Aviva to find out why. That sounds pretty unusual to me.

dar83

I'd also wonder how your change of address affected the payment for insurance going out of the bank account. You said that your dad saw some insurance payment go out and thought it was the car(guessing it must have been the van), but if he had Direct debits set up to pay them both, the change of address wouldn't have affected either in the slightest, only changing bank/DD details would...

Was the policy paid in full and expiring at the start of April? That's a bit more than a slight oversight in fairness. Also last time I checked didn't Aviva have a rolling renewal unless you advised them otherwise? (they did when the took money off me even after I cancelled in writing!)

kristian12

pithater1 wrote: »

Can't see how they could have cancelled the policy on the 8th of April if the last payment went through on the 31st of March though. For your brother's sake, you really need to investigate further with Aviva to find out why. That sounds pretty unusual to me.

Sorry my bad that should have said 28th April, But we don't know why it was cancelled so quick. Dad argued that point with them today but they said there policy is now immediate cancellation unless contacted with 7 days of notification of missed payment.

dar83 wrote: »

I'd also wonder how your change of address affected the payment for insurance going out of the bank account. You said that your dad saw some insurance payment go out and thought it was the car(guessing it must have been the van), but if he had Direct debits set up to pay them both, the change of address wouldn't have affected either in the slightest, only changing bank/DD details would...

Was the policy paid in full and expiring at the start of April? That's a bit more than a slight oversight in fairness. Also last time I checked didn't Aviva have a rolling renewal unless you advised them otherwise? (they did when the took money off me even after I cancelled in writing!)

The change of address didn't affect the payment, the change of address just meant he wasn't aware there was a problem. The payment was missed as he was swapping funds from one account to another (to allow for Moms spending on the move, curtains and suchlike :rolleyes:) and had seen Aviva on the statement and didn't realise it was the van and that the car hadn't yet come out of account.

No the policy doesn't(didn't) expire until November. He's paid the new policy in full now to avoid having anything like this happen again. As i've already said he was stupid not to check or notice.

P_1

kristian12 wrote: »

Sorry my bad that should have said 28th April, But we don't know why it was cancelled so quick. Dad argued that point with them today but they said there policy is now immediate cancellation unless contacted with 7 days of notification of missed payment.




The change of address didn't affect the payment, the change of address just meant he wasn't aware there was a problem. The payment was missed as he was swapping funds from one account to another (to allow for Moms spending on the move, curtains and suchlike :rolleyes:) and had seen Aviva on the statement and didn't realise it was the van and that the car hadn't yet come out of account. As i've already said he was stupid not to check or notice.

There's your potential loophole, did you recieve notice of this change in policy?

7 days is pretty tight though. When I was in the AA, if a DD was missed they'd represent to your bank within 14 days and if that was missed you'd get a 21 day notice letter, followed by a 14 day, followed by a 7 day. All sent by regstered post.

kristian12

pithater1 wrote: »

There's your potential loophole, did you recieve notice of this change in policy?

7 days is pretty tight though. When I was in the AA, if a DD was missed they'd represent to your bank within 14 days and if that was missed you'd get a 21 day notice letter, followed by a 14 day, followed by a 7 day. All sent by regstered post.

No there was definatley no notice i've collected all post from last address and have gone through what he had already and there was no notification of this change. There is no representing to the bank now according to them today.

Cabaal

pithater1 wrote: »

The letter from the insurance company should have been sent by registered post, first thing for you to do is to check that it was.

If it turns out that it wasn't you, your brother or your dad should get onto the III.

They aren't, its still the job of the person not the insurance company to make sure they have in date valid insurance. Stop trying to shift blame

P_1

Cabaal wrote: »

They aren't, its still the job of the person not the insurance company to make sure they have in date valid insurance. Stop trying to shift blame

The OP was looking for some advice to get his brother out of a bind, I was just pointing out a potential way for them to do so.

Nowhere did I attempt to shift any blame.

germanator

i wouldnt worry about it, your brother i assume has no previos convictions? If this is the case and he can show that it was an honest mistake and he had insurance before and after the incident then 99% of the time the "benefit of the probation act" will be given on a first time offence for no insurance!

kristian12

Just thought i'd update this as my brother was in court this morning. My dad went with him and the solicitor explained that it was a genuine mistake and although they had documents to prove when the insurance lapsed and it was sorted straight away the judge wasn't interested in seeing them. Dad offered to make a charitable donation and the judge said that donation would be €200 and the case was dismissed without charge. Dad and brother very relieved and will make sure it never happens again.

Thanks for all your replies.

Valetta

A sensible outcome all round, I would have thought.

Big Nasty

He got off fairly handy

kristian12

Valetta wrote: »

A sensible outcome all round, I would have thought.

Thanks they are both very relieved and Dad was more than happy to make donation.

MCMLXXV wrote: »

He got off fairly handy

He did get off lightly and i think no-one knows that more than them.

Jimdagym

Thanks for updating, a lot of people don't!

germanator

see, i told you nothing to worry about

dubsfan

sorry for hijacking but im in a similar case though i didnt move address but last months insurance didnt come out of bank i had sent in new bank details which they say they didnt receive i know i should have rang so my car was impounded my issue is though ive received 2 fines one for no tax (which i had) and the other in my name and address but for a different car and offence which occured 2 hrs after my car was seized. the tax one matches time of my offence. not sure what to do regarding the tax fine i spoke to a garda and he said i may be getting done for no tax to save me the hassle of an insurance court date. waiting to see a solicitor regarding this as dont want to pay for the tax fine and then get summoned anyway

Wicklowandy

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056817670

Every answer you need is there, have you seen a solicitor yet? Even give them a call. I dont know where you are, but i can pm you details of a good solicitor in tallaght.

dubsfan

i spoke to a solicitor today and have an appointment to see one the 10th of december i was told today i could be in a lot of trouble and face a custodial or community service and regarding fines to ignore them that they arent related to me

Wicklowandy

I hope you aren't, hope it all goes well for you.

Write back when you know more.

Good luck;)

kristian12

From what i've read of your post i'd be trying to get an earlier appointment with solicitor even if only to put your mind at rest.

In my brothers case it was a case of having no insurance and that's what his summons was for so regarding paying the fine i can't help there i'm sorry. My brother got a piece of paper with Gards name on and why the car was taken, did you and if so does it say no tax or no insurance? If it says no insurance then thats what will presumably be on their records. I'd say if you do get a summons take proof that you had insurance up until just before you were stopped and have had it ever since. Dad didn't need to show it but you never know it might help. Good Luck.

djimi

dubsfan wrote: »

i spoke to a solicitor today and have an appointment to see one the 10th of december i was told today i could be in a lot of trouble and face a custodial or community service and regarding fines to ignore them that they arent related to me

I would have thought there would be little or no chance of you getting anything like a custodial/community service sentance assuming it is your first offense.