Lerner Permits: 848 drivers on 11th Permit. 43% Driving Unaccompanied.

eqwjewoiujqorj

So 946 learner drivers caught in just 3 days.
Like shooting fish in a barrel.

There should be a maximum on the amount of permits a driver can hold.

How many years would you have to be driving to hold 11 permits?



http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0507/1224315686761.html

Operation Learner Driver, carried out on March 1st, March 2nd and April 19th, involved stopping 2,200 learner drivers.



It found that 43 per cent were not accompanied by a full licence-holder as required by law.


It also found that 30 per cent of learner drivers were not displaying L-plates. In some cases both offences were committed by the same driver.


Up to March 31st, there were 235,984 learning permit-holders in the State. The majority were on their first licence, but 848 drivers were on their 11th licence or more.


Assistant Garda Commissioner John O’Mahoney said the Garda would continue to focus on learner drivers to ensure greater compliance.

“We especially wish to remind all learner permit-holders of their legal obligations with regard to displaying L-plates, being accompanied by qualified drivers at all times and motorway restrictions.

Nissan doctor

My uncle has provisional licences for approx 15 years. He failed 4 driving tests then simply decided he wouldn't bother any more.:rolleyes:


I'm actually surprised that its only 43pc that were unaccompanied.

Jimbob 83

Having L plates on the car is just asking for trouble surely, well was when i was a learner

I spent 18 months driving unaccompanied back in the day, as ND mentioned its surprising only 43 per cent were caught in the recent operation.

MickySticks

Jimbob 83 wrote: »

Having L plates on the car is just asking for trouble surely, well was when i was a learner

Exactly, its like a thief having "I just robbed a bank" stamped on his forehead.

challengemaster

RoverJames wrote: »

I spent 18 months driving unaccompanied back in the day, as ND mentioned its surprising only 43 per cent were caught in the recent operation.

Depends how much effort was actually put into this "Operation".

drunkmonkey

Make it illegal for anyone with a provisional licence to drive a car with an engine size over 1.1. That will increase complience overnight.

Doctor your uncle doesn't drive an SO reg passat by any chance, think I had the misfortune of being behind him today, braked on every turn and anytime a car came on the other side of the road he braked as well.

challengemaster

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Make it illegal for anyone with a provisional licence to drive a car with an engine size over 1.1. That will increase complience overnight.

And that achieves what, exactly? Engine size doesn't equate to competency, or less lethality.

All that'll do overnight in double the price of any car under a 1.1L, and make it 10 times harder for learners to pay for the process in the first place. I don't think you could come up with a worse thought out idea if you tried.

Nissan doctor

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Make it illegal for anyone with a provisional licence to drive a car with an engine size over 1.1. That will increase complience overnight.

Doctor your uncle doesn't drive an SO reg passat by any chance, think I had the misfortune of being behind him today, braked on every turn and anytime a car came on the other side of the road he braked as well.

No he drives a 00 Corsa.....or he did until recently, when his decision not to ever service it backfired too:rolleyes:

lostboy

Nissan doctor wrote: »

My uncle has provisional licences for approx 15 years. He failed 4 driving tests then simply decided he wouldn't bother any more.:rolleyes:

question. how does he keep getting provisionals, thought you needed proof of having the test booked after the second provisonal expires

challengemaster

challengemaster wrote: »

Depends how much effort was actually put into this "Operation".

true, they might well have only pulled over cars with l plates or driven by youthful folk.

Nissan doctor

lostboy wrote: »

question. how does he keep getting provisionals, thought you needed proof of having the test booked after the second provisonal expires

Yep, he just books a test, renews the licence, then cancels the test:mad:

seamus

43% actually sounds pretty good considering that 10 years ago in my experience (everyone I knew was on a provisional) it would have been more like 90%

RoverJames

RoverJames wrote: »

I spent 18 months driving unaccompanied back in the day, as ND mentioned its surprising only 43 per cent were caught in the recent operation.

Oops, upon reflection I didn't, most of that 18 months was on the 2nd provisional.

Jimbob 83

I hate people getting on their high horses at Learners, up until recently the waiting list for the full test was an absolute joke, if you fail another month or 2 waiting for a second test and lots of testers around with a grudge against life in general (i had one for my first test years ago who failed me on something i did well to avoid and pre empt on the last corner back to the test centre)

The problem is the lack of drivers education as part of the school system, people on waiting lists still have to go to work etc and they will and most are better drivers than alot of people on the full as they are swotting up for the test etc.

Jimdagym

RoverJames wrote: »

true, they might well have only pulled over cars with l plates or driven by youthful folk.

Well loads didn't have L plates so it might have been the youthful look.

How young can you look on your 11th provisional though???

drunkmonkey

challengemaster wrote: »

And that achieves what, exactly? Engine size doesn't equate to competency, or less lethality.

All that'll do overnight in double the price of any car under a 1.1L, and make it 10 times harder for learners to pay for the process in the first place. I don't think you could come up with a worse thought out idea if you tried.

Your about to be involved in a head on with an unqualified driver, would you rather be in the 7 series or a micra. Of course the car make a difference to the lethality. You can`t just jump on an R1 why should you be allowed drive any car without been proven to be competent?

lostboy

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Yep, he just books a test, renews the licence, then cancels the test:mad:

haha, take it he doesnt get refunds anyway though? the rsa yoke tells me after the second cancellation you forfeit all fee's, or perhaps after a certain time passes its counted as a first cancellation all over again.

the subject has me curious because im in the process of getting my full license for the bike and car now (both my second provisionals expire on the same day in september) and i was reading about all the ins and outs about actually getting the third provisional. dont get me wrong i still fully intend to do my tests, and pass, want to be legally allowed to drive overseas and such, i took the risk once or twice and i always do feel a bit uneasy about it if i do get stopped.

challengemaster

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Your about to be involved in a head on with an unqualified driver, would you rather be in the 7 series or a micra. Of course the car make a difference to the lethality. You can`t just jump on an R1 why should you be allowed drive any car without been proven to be competent?

Just to make sense of this for you - You've just suggested that because they're learners in the head on collision, they should come out worse off. Or did you not think of it from that aspect?

How does what car they're in during a head on collision change the fact that they're in a head on collision in the first place?

It's the same sort of half-arsed ideas the RSA usually comes up with. Limiting learners to small engine vehicles doesn't make them better drivers, only pushes up the cost of learning and subsequently insurance for cars in the sub 1.2L group. It helps nobody.

Rich11

this country is a joke:o

Dartz

I would never fit in some ****box 1.1.... Also. I'm firmly convinced that the reason road deaths are going down isn't that driver training has improved or enforcement has gotten better. It's because it's possible to buy a 10 year old car with a 5 star safety rating. Getting the ****boxes that squash down like a juice carton in an accident off the road saves more lives. And given that younger drivers tend to be in one of these ****eboxes because they're cheap to buy and insure....

Cookie_Monster

The best part of a million quid* in fines in three days, not bad. I wonder what percentage of those will actually be collected (or even issued) though?

*1k fine for no plates or unaccompanied isn't it, 2k for both?

Radio coverage indicated a policy of cautioning for first offenders before charges, fines etc.

fasttalkerchat

I saw a Dublin reg unaccompanied L plate pulled over today in the North. I wonder how that went... probably a ban and a big fine but I don't know if the ban would apply in the South.

...if they were on a 2nd provisional it might have went very well.

Shakti

I had a provisional for 17 years, couldn't believe the test was so easy when I eventually did it.

old_aussie

Why would a learner display an L plate if unaccompanied?

fasttalkerchat

old_aussie wrote: »

Why would a learner display an L plate if unaccompanied?

Half the fine.


(But an increased chance of getting caught.)

Mickey H

Shakti wrote: »

I had a provisional for 17 years, couldn't believe the test was so easy when I eventually did it.

As a general question, how did you get away with this for 17 years? Did you not have to sit a test?

Shakti

Mickey H wrote: »

As a general question, how did you get away with this for 17 years? Did you not have to sit a test?

I was living in and out of the country a lot,
Back then you didn't have to apply for a test until I think it was your third and if you moved around a lot like I did it would be back to scratch with whatever county council you were resident and renewed at, the waiting list was a couple of years at one stage so they weren't exactly pushing you to apply, used to get some stick over having a provisional, only sat a test once passed first time, didn't even tell the people who give me stick over it they seem to enjoy it so much,
Provisional drivers get a bad wrap IMO,
learner/full/no licence penalty point breakdown

Cookie_Monster

RoverJames wrote: »

Radio coverage indicated a policy of cautioning for first offenders before charges, fines etc.

sigh, were the warnings when the highly publicised new system and policies came in not enough? How many chances to AGS want to give people...

Marcusm

RoverJames wrote: »

...if they were on a 2nd provisional it might have went very well.

How? Irish provisional/learner permit doesn't confer any right to drive outside te state? Likewise hasn't that 2nd provisional get out been dropped?

djimi

RoverJames wrote: »

Radio coverage indicated a policy of cautioning for first offenders before charges, fines etc.

Stunning policing that... Learners caught driving unaccompanied should have the keys taken off them on the spot. The idea that a 17 year old can pass a multiple choice exam and jump behind the wheel of a car unaccompanied, and be allowed to drive off on their merry way even if caught, scares me half to death to be honest. Absolute lunacy.

haminka

Jimbob 83 wrote: »

I hate people getting on their high horses at Learners, up until recently the waiting list for the full test was an absolute joke, if you fail another month or 2 waiting for a second test and lots of testers around with a grudge against life in general (i had one for my first test years ago who failed me on something i did well to avoid and pre empt on the last corner back to the test centre)

The problem is the lack of drivers education as part of the school system, people on waiting lists still have to go to work etc and they will and most are better drivers than alot of people on the full as they are swotting up for the test etc.

excuses, excuses, excuses .... try this explanation in any civilized country where they've never heard of provisional licenses.
if you don't have a driving license, walk, take a bus, ride a bike, don't move into the sticks where you know you'll need a car to get by. simplez

my colleague's sister failed every driving test, she can't reverse drive, she can't switch the gears properly, barely knows her way around roundabouts, right know her provisional expired but she won't apply for a new test because she's scared. yet, she drives her two kids every day. and if something happens, the tax payers will shell out 10 million euro to take care for them.

Indricotherium

haminka wrote: »

Jimbob 83 wrote: »

I hate people getting on their high horses at Learners, up until recently the waiting list for the full test was an absolute joke, if you fail another month or 2 waiting for a second test and lots of testers around with a grudge against life in general (i had one for my first test years ago who failed me on something i did well to avoid and pre empt on the last corner back to the test centre)

The problem is the lack of drivers education as part of the school system, people on waiting lists still have to go to work etc and they will and most are better drivers than alot of people on the full as they are swotting up for the test etc.

excuses, excuses, excuses .... try this explanation in any civilized country where they've never heard of provisional licenses.
if you don't have a driving license, walk, take a bus, ride a bike, don't move into the sticks where you know you'll need a car to get by. simplez

my colleague's sister failed every driving test, she can't reverse drive, she can't switch the gears properly, barely knows her way around roundabouts, right know her provisional expired but she won't apply for a new test because she's scared. yet, she drives her two kids every day. and if something happens, the tax payers will shell out 10 million euro to take care for them.

The state of public transport in Ireland makes that argument a little bit weaker though. I agree that in most jurisdictions, you either comply or don't drive, but in parts of Ireland there is little or no access to public transport.

On top of that, even in the Dublin area, public transport is more or less useless if you want to go across the city rather than into or out of it.

This all allows people to feel morally justified in ignoring this particular law. I should add that that I don't agree with this but I can understand how people make the decision.

I do think that unsupervised driving is an essential part of learning though. Perhaps allowing unsupervised driving in daylight hours and after/before rush hour would be an idea.

haminka

Indricotherium wrote: »

The state of public transport in Ireland makes that argument a little bit weaker though. I agree that in most jurisdictions, you either comply or don't drive, but in parts of Ireland there is little or no access to public transport.

On top of that, even in the Dublin area, public transport is more or less useless if you want to go across the city rather than into or out of it.

This all allows people to feel morally justified in ignoring this particular law. I should add that that I don't agree with this but I can understand how people make the decision.

I do think that unsupervised driving is an essential part of learning though. Perhaps allowing unsupervised driving in daylight hours and after/before rush hour would be an idea.

the problem is, how to regulate the unsupervised driving. if it's 4.30 and you're not at home yet, what do you do? leave the car on the side of the road?
as for the transport, yeah, it's more of a public disgrace than a public transport but it's not so bad when you live in Dublin or in the commuter belt. you just have to walk more and that, I believe, is the main problem. people are bloody lazy. I remember walking or taking buses to school in minus 30 degrees and constant snowing which blocked the roads because the snow ploughs couldn't keep up. Over here I see the areas surrounding schools clogged around the end of school time with mums who drive their kids to the nearest estate which is just over 15 minutes walk away.
And once again, if people have no driving license why do they move to the sticks? A friend of mine had no driving license and neither had her husband so they stuck with the apartment they lived in because they knew they can't move elswhere even if they wanted to have a family house for their baby. They just took it in stride instead of risking their and other people's lives on the roads.

Terrontress

Indricotherium wrote: »

haminka wrote: »

Jimbob 83 wrote: »

I hate people getting on their high horses at Learners, up until recently the waiting list for the full test was an absolute joke, if you fail another month or 2 waiting for a second test and lots of testers around with a grudge against life in general (i had one for my first test years ago who failed me on something i did well to avoid and pre empt on the last corner back to the test centre)

The problem is the lack of drivers education as part of the school system, people on waiting lists still have to go to work etc and they will and most are better drivers than alot of people on the full as they are swotting up for the test etc.

excuses, excuses, excuses .... try this explanation in any civilized country where they've never heard of provisional licenses.
if you don't have a driving license, walk, take a bus, ride a bike, don't move into the sticks where you know you'll need a car to get by. simplez

my colleague's sister failed every driving test, she can't reverse drive, she can't switch the gears properly, barely knows her way around roundabouts, right know her provisional expired but she won't apply for a new test because she's scared. yet, she drives her two kids every day. and if something happens, the tax payers will shell out 10 million euro to take care for them.

The state of public transport in Ireland makes that argument a little bit weaker though. I agree that in most jurisdictions, you either comply or don't drive, but in parts of Ireland there is little or no access to public transport.

On top of that, even in the Dublin area, public transport is more or less useless if you want to go across the city rather than into or out of it.

This all allows people to feel morally justified in ignoring this particular law. I should add that that I don't agree with this but I can understand how people make the decision.

I do think that unsupervised driving is an essential part of learning though. Perhaps allowing unsupervised driving in daylight hours and after/before rush hour would be an idea.

Using your logic, 16 year old children with part time jobs should be allowed to drive about as they wish as the public transport system is letting them down.

As for unsupervised driving being part of learning, I would argue that passing the driving test is the first step of learning. And once you have passed the test, the driving by yourself is a steeper element of the learning curve but at least practising for test will have embedded a lot of the basics.

Passing the test does not indicate that you are a safe, experienced driver.

The Irish system of provisional licenses is always seen as hilarious to those from outside the state.

Guy:Incognito

Jimbob 83 wrote: »

I hate people getting on their high horses at Learners, up until recently the waiting list for the full test was an absolute joke, if you fail another month or 2 waiting for a second test and lots of testers around with a grudge against life in general (i had one for my first test years ago who failed me on something i did well to avoid and pre empt on the last corner back to the test centre).

Ah the old "when all else fails , just tell others they are on their high horses" . People choose to drive unnaccompanied, nothing else. This **** about needing a car is just that. Other countries get by just fine, including people living in the backarse of nowhere.

"recently" being years ago at this stage?

Jimbob 83 wrote: »

The problem is the lack of drivers education as part of the school system, people on waiting lists still have to go to work etc and they will and most are better drivers than alot of people on the full as they are swotting up for the test etc.

The problem is not lack of education in the school system. Yes it would be a nice addition but plenty of countries dont do it and people have a much more mature attitude to driveign than here. Theres nothign stopping people going and getting lessons as son as they turn 17 but people figure "**** it , sure its eas, I'll just get a learners permit and drive anyway".

The Gardai have a lot to anwser for on this count. Letting people away with driving on their own for years is just not aceptable. Even going so far as to show everyone on television how they dont bother punishing people :rolleyes:

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

sigh, were the warnings when the highly publicised new system and policies came in not enough? How many chances to AGS want to give people...

The policy of warning people and "using a bit of common sense" as people on here like to call it for various offences is stupid and doesnt work. It's proved by threads like the one the other day about driving in bus lanes. The poster gets stopped by different Gards that give him a warning and he's on his way, laughing all the way.

RoverJames wrote: »

...if they were on a 2nd provisional it might have went very well.

They couldnt still have a provisional at this stage , the permits are in more than 2 years are they not?

Plus doesnt matter what sort of provisional or permit they have, it's not valid outside the state.

Hopefully the PSNI can pick up some of the slack our lads arent bothering with for us.:rolleyes:

Mimikyu

This post has been deleted.

Indricotherium

Terrontress wrote: »

Indricotherium wrote: »

haminka wrote: »

Jimbob 83 wrote: »

I hate people getting on their high horses at Learners, up until recently the waiting list for the full test was an absolute joke, if you fail another month or 2 waiting for a second test and lots of testers around with a grudge against life in general (i had one for my first test years ago who failed me on something i did well to avoid and pre empt on the last corner back to the test centre)

The problem is the lack of drivers education as part of the school system, people on waiting lists still have to go to work etc and they will and most are better drivers than alot of people on the full as they are swotting up for the test etc.

excuses, excuses, excuses .... try this explanation in any civilized country where they've never heard of provisional licenses.
if you don't have a driving license, walk, take a bus, ride a bike, don't move into the sticks where you know you'll need a car to get by. simplez

my colleague's sister failed every driving test, she can't reverse drive, she can't switch the gears properly, barely knows her way around roundabouts, right know her provisional expired but she won't apply for a new test because she's scared. yet, she drives her two kids every day. and if something happens, the tax payers will shell out 10 million euro to take care for them.

The state of public transport in Ireland makes that argument a little bit weaker though. I agree that in most jurisdictions, you either comply or don't drive, but in parts of Ireland there is little or no access to public transport.

On top of that, even in the Dublin area, public transport is more or less useless if you want to go across the city rather than into or out of it.

This all allows people to feel morally justified in ignoring this particular law. I should add that that I don't agree with this but I can understand how people make the decision.

I do think that unsupervised driving is an essential part of learning though. Perhaps allowing unsupervised driving in daylight hours and after/before rush hour would be an idea.

Using your logic, 16 year old children with part time jobs should be allowed to drive about as they wish as the public transport system is letting them down.

As for unsupervised driving being part of learning, I would argue that passing the driving test is the first step of learning. And once you have passed the test, the driving by yourself is a steeper element of the learning curve but at least practising for test will have embedded a lot of the basics.

Passing the test does not indicate that you are a safe, experienced driver.

The Irish system of provisional licenses is always seen as hilarious to those from outside the state.

Well I don't think it would allow 16 year olds to do anything?

What I'm suggesting is that a small amount of unsupervised driving in the middle part of the day might benefit people learning to drive.

I also did say I disagree with justification people feel they have for if print this law.

I think it can be said though that Ireland is a bit of a special case when compared to other nearby jurisdictions.

Ireland has a ridiculously low population densit outside of the Dublin area compared to the rest of Europe and provision of a comprehensive public transport system is probably never going to be an option.

In this situation allowances have to be made for people who are trying to get out into the world. There is no excuse for people refusing to get qualified though, or avoiding the test for years.

Mimikyu

This post has been deleted.

Guy:Incognito

Captain Morgan wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Again, how do people in other countries do it? I picked an English city geographically close to us at random, Liverpool. From a quick search of their busses it seems the last bus is half eleven aswell.

How long is he driving by the way? Considering a test can be had in a few weeks afaik, maybe less.

Mimikyu

This post has been deleted.

alastair

Indricotherium wrote: »

Ireland has a ridiculously low population densit outside of the Dublin area compared to the rest of Europe and provision of a comprehensive public transport system is probably never going to be an option.

Rural population densities here are nothing compared to Scandinavia - where they know something about proper driver instruction before you can take to the roads on your own. We're not special.

drunkmonkey

Captain Morgan wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Exactly what I was getting at Captain, I've nearly 20 years driving experience if you count the tractor, a full car and truck licence yet because I don't have a full bike permit I can't drive something like a R1. I completley understand why I can't and i'm glad I can't without proper training or i'd probably be another stasticic by now.
Something like the bike training makes perfect sense along with power restrictions until your qualified.

Best of luck with the bike if you get one, watch out for motorists ; )

sean1141

So how many of ye that are giving out about lerner drivers driving unaccompanied never done it once yourselves??

IMO the irish driving test is a load of crap. You end up driving around your local town at 50kph and if you do pass your legaly allowed to go out on the motorway where you should never have driven a car before....

PCPhoto

haminka wrote: »

excuses, excuses, excuses .... try this explanation in any civilized country where they've never heard of provisional licenses.
if you don't have a driving license, walk, take a bus, ride a bike, don't move into the sticks where you know you'll need a car to get by. simplez

my colleague's sister failed every driving test, she can't reverse drive, she can't switch the gears properly, barely knows her way around roundabouts, right know her provisional expired but she won't apply for a new test because she's scared. yet, she drives her two kids every day. and if something happens, the tax payers will shell out 10 million euro to take care for them.

and you dont report her .... why ? if people know of offenders the best way to get them off the roads is to report them....let the courts decide if they should be on the roads.

PCPhoto

sean1141 wrote: »

So how many of ye that are giving out about lerner drivers driving unaccompanied never done it once yourselves??

IMO the irish driving test is a load of crap. You end up driving around your local town at 50kph and if you do pass your legaly allowed to go out on the motorway where you should never have driven a car before....

it was legal when I did it - they have since changed the law.

i agree with you that the driving test is crap - it should also include random assessment and step-back procedures - which means any convictions for traffic offences in first 2-3 years you should be put back on provisional and forced to goto traffic school/driver training and re-sit the test.....and increased random assessment.

as regards your first point .... doesnt matter if others have done it in the past (thats like saying a politician could accept a corrupt patment because thats what they did in the 80's) , what matters is that it is illegal and should not be done - the law is there for a reason....to be obeyed.

you must also remember that the state "sold" licences in the 80's which has led to many of the bad drivers out there - and they most likely taught their kids to drive so even higher risk of bad drivers out there.

djimi

Indricotherium wrote: »

The state of public transport in Ireland makes that argument a little bit weaker though. I agree that in most jurisdictions, you either comply or don't drive, but in parts of Ireland there is little or no access to public transport.

On top of that, even in the Dublin area, public transport is more or less useless if you want to go across the city rather than into or out of it.

Captain Morgan wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Perceived necessity has never, and will never, justify doing something that potentially puts the safety of others at risk. There was no public transport or taxis where I grew up, but that doesnt mean I can drive home drunk from the pub every night because I had no other alternative. Likewise there is no excuse for someone who is potentially dangerously unskilled at driving to be driving unaccompanied, just because its an inconvenience for them not to drive. If they need to drive then go get a full license; end of story.

sean1141

sean1141 wrote: »

So how many of ye that are giving out about lerner drivers driving unaccompanied never done it once yourselves??

o/

IMO the irish driving test is a load of crap. You end up driving around your local town at 50kph and if you do pass your legaly allowed to go out on the motorway where you should never have driven a car before....

well if it's that easy they should go off and pass it then

sean1141

PCPhoto wrote: »

it was legal when I did it - they have since changed the law.

That was a loophole for the second provisinal IIRC, anyhow you were doing the same thing, driving unaccompanied.




edit: I don't mean you personnaly.