Grassroots FF and the renewal of the party

raymon

We hear a lot about the FF renewal and grassroots.

I would like to know what FF grassroots stands for .

If a recent Mayo cumann meeting is any indication grassroots stand behind Pee Flynn.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/05/01/meanwhile-in-mayo-7/

We saw the grassroots fall over themselves applauding Brian Cowen at the recent ard fheis.

O Cuiv claims he is the voice of grassroots. He says that FFs natural ally is SF . Also he is definitely anti Yes on the forthcoming treaty.

In the absence of any other message , FF grassroots looks like an organisation without clear direction.

Does anyone know what FF stands for , or Grassroots FF stands for?

Maybe I am wrong , maybe there is a set of core values that are clearly defined.

thecommietommy

Well, so much for FF's apology recently and mutterings of a " new beginning " and so on. But I suppose the leopard could never change his spots. :rolleyes:

" At a recent meeting of Castlebar Fianna Fail Cumann, it was unanimously agreed that a vote of thanks and appreciation be extended to former EU commissioner Padraig Flynn for his work on behalf of Castlebar and County Mayo during his years of public service. "

http://www.advertiser.ie/mayo/article/51863/castlebar-fianna-fail-lauds-flynns-record-of-service-to-mayo

Isn't this the kind of servile gombeenism and cute hoorism that has destroyed this country and appears to be still alive and well in some parts of the country ??

thecommietommy

“The Flynn record speaks for itself,” he said :eek:. “This county benefited from a whole range of major projects for which he was responsible. All of the infrastuctural advantages we enjoy in Mayo today were a direct result of him representing his county with such drive and determination over his years in government.”

It should be pointed out, that Padraig gave Mammy Flynn the €50,000 Fianna Fail ' donation ' and Mammy went and bought some land to plant trees on it with a grant of €200,000 from Coillte. When FF became aware of this, they amazingly never looked for the €50,00 back - nor has ' new honest FF man ' Martin either !!!!!

According to a legal expert on RTE the night of the Mahon report, he said he couldn't be specific but that certain " political household names " would face criminal charges (he specifically mentioned Ahern wouldn't it should be pointed out). I suppose Castlebar FF will have a few church gate collections for poor Padraig and the Flynn family no dounbt :mad:

K-9

Opening post moved from Irish Economy and existing thread merged.

Chazz Michael Michaels

There is no renewal of that party, they are comprised from top to bottom, voter to leader. A history of corruption and willingly voting for the corrupt and inept. FF represent everything that is wrong with Irish society, because, they were at the core of everything that happened in our history. I never voted for them and never will, and I will never take seriously a person who supports them.

And, before the inevitably moronic question of 'well, who do you support' chimes in, I don't support any parties. I find blindly supporting a party to be a cretinous activity.

raymon

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

There is no renewal of that party,

I think you are correct here , no renewal , no real core values, no point

Sierra Oscar

Go to a meeting and see for yourself.

The Clar for the last Ard Fheis can be found here which contains many motions submitted by grass root members throughout the nation.

FF Ard Fheis Clar 2012

A list of motions that were passed is also knocking about the place.

raymon wrote: »

If a recent Mayo cumann meeting is any indication grassroots stand behind Pee Flynn.

What do you expect from the cumann that the Flynn family has a huge amount of influence over? The wider movement despise Flynn - however you rarely heard about the motions which were passed by cumann up and down the country calling for the expulsion of the likes of Flynn and recently Ahern.

Wider Road

raymon wrote: »

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

There is no renewal of that party,

I think you are correct here , no renewal , no real core values, no point

What party are close to your heart at this present time, Raymon?
We know what party's you dislike, any chance of your opinion on the rest for a change?

ted1

Is O Cuiv, going to challenge Martin for leadership?

Seth Brundle

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The wider movement despise Flynn - however you rarely heard about the motions which were passed by cumann up and down the country calling for the expulsion of the likes of Flynn and recently Ahern.

why only recently ahern? There has been ample opportunity over the last number of years to get rid of him. You didn't need to wait on the tribunal to report first!

Sierra Oscar

kbannon wrote: »

why only recently ahern? There has been ample opportunity over the last number of years to get rid of him. You didn't need to wait on the tribunal to report first!

There are legal implications in discussing Mahon and making judgements on an individuals character before the tribunal has issued its report.

Sounds pathetic, I know - but its true nonetheless.

In saying that, it is not as if there werent people who wanted Ahern gone before the Tribunal reported - but such people pretty much had to hold fire until there was reliable ammunition to base their opinions upon! To be fair, I think that is only right too.

ted1 wrote: »

Is O Cuiv, going to challenge Martin for leadership?

I cannot really see that happening as you need support to launch a leadership bid, which O'Cuiv has little to none of - especially within the parliamentary party.

[Jackass]

O'Cuiv is tasting the air and smells the anti-Europe agenda, he's looking at the success of SF, and he is currently making a juxtaposition to align himself with this.

FF stands for nothing. The failure of the party at Government level, and the oppertunity to become a martyr is the sole motivation behind the desperately power hungry O'Cuiv, and he knows he's on a sinking ship and wont get it there.

He has that ruthless, conniving De Valera blood in him, and just like his grandfather, he'll do whatever it takes to get into power, take whatever stance will get him there, and seize on the separation of the populous to propel himself to glory.

Watch out for O Cuiv, he's from the deepest belly of the corrupt and conniving slime ball school of FF.

Shea O'Meara

I can honestly only see people keeping a flame burning for this party due to pure tradition. This does not make any sense to me. Why try fix such a broken corrupt party? FFail stands for generational corruption and was founded by a thief who screwed the very people he claimed to represent. That's become the main trait of the party. Yes, potholes got filled and so on, but why do people feel the need to keep plugging away with this shady organisation?
I cannot help but be negative about FFail. It's not disliking for the hell of it, facts are facts.
The whole grass roots members, salt of the earth, the real FFail thing simply doesn't wash. There's two ways to view it:
1) the grass roots people are genuine and love the country...but have had successive corrupt leaders and guiding lights since day one so what good is it to have such upstanding grass roots, does it even matter?
2) if everybody on the ground are great and trying to change from within, why not either expell your whole leadership and start from scratch or even leave and form a new party?

I believe the grass roots of FFail are the problem. They enable the shysters to rule, they support the likes of Flynn, O'Dea, Ahern on a local level.
It's all civil war/partition ****e in my view. We don't need it and will never progress with the hardcore FFail or nothing grass roots folk on the scene. Same goes for FG.

transylman

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

There are legal implications in discussing Mahon and making judgements on an individuals character before the tribunal has issued its report.

Sounds pathetic, I know - but its true nonetheless.

It does sound pathetic, but it isn't true. There was plenty of evidence before the 2007 election that Ahern had been engaging in all kinds of financial irregularities. If they had wanted to, the parliamentary party had a wide variety of ways that they could have got rid of him without affecting the Mahon tribunal. They either didn't care or chose to ignore all this and stand by him.

If what you are saying was true they wouldn't have been able to pressure him to leave in 2008.

Mr.Micro

[Jackass] wrote: »

O'Cuiv is tasting the air and smells the anti-Europe agenda, he's looking at the success of SF, and he is currently making a juxtaposition to align himself with this.

Watch out for O Cuiv, he's from the deepest belly of the corrupt and conniving slime ball school of FF.

I think O'Cuiv is aligning himself for leadership. Just like his his grandad De Valera, talk talk talk, and no substance. He has no charisma and would get little support, other than the gombeen vote. O'Cuiv is outdated and out of touch IMO. He should have shown his rebellious streak when FF were driving the country into bankruptcy, not now when it suits his own agenda.

raymon

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Go to a meeting and see for yourself.

The Clar for the last Ard Fheis can be found here which contains many motions submitted by grass root members throughout the nation.

FF Ard Fheis Clar 2012

A list of motions that were passed is also knocking about the place.



What do you expect from the cumann that the Flynn family has a huge amount of influence over? The wider movement despise Flynn - however you rarely heard about the motions which were passed by cumann up and down the country calling for the expulsion of the likes of Flynn and recently Ahern.

The link you provided does not answer my question.

Does anyone know what FF stands for , or Grassroots FF stands for?

I'm confused by the support for Cowen, Flynn, SF and No vote in the forthcoming referendum coming from within the FF party.

raymon

Wider Road wrote: »

What party are close to your heart at this present time, Raymon?
We know what party's you dislike, any chance of your opinion on the rest for a change?

No party is " close to my heart " at present.

I have mixed views on the current government. Too early to judge.

Independents have been a dire disappointment , I was hoping for more.

SF are playing to capture the working class vote with blatant populism, and it is working.

But FF take the prize for worst performance .

HarryPotter41

raymon wrote: »

We hear a lot about the FF renewal and grassroots.

I would like to know what FF grassroots stands for .

If a recent Mayo cumann meeting is any indication grassroots stand behind Pee Flynn.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/05/01/meanwhile-in-mayo-7/

We saw the grassroots fall over themselves applauding Brian Cowen at the recent ard fheis.

O Cuiv claims he is the voice of grassroots. He says that FFs natural ally is SF . Also he is definitely anti Yes on the forthcoming treaty.

In the absence of any other message , FF grassroots looks like an organisation without clear direction.

Does anyone know what FF stands for , or Grassroots FF stands for?

Maybe I am wrong , maybe there is a set of core values that are clearly defined.

First of all to the best of my knowledge the Castlebar Cumann of FF is the only branch in Mayo that supported Flynn, every other branch voted either unanimously or overwhelmingly in support of the expulsion of Flynn and Ahern.

FF Grassroots still believe in the ideals of supporting business while also ensuring that the more needy in society are looked after where possible. Sadly the top moved away from this ideal for quite some time back and completely ignored warnings coming from their supporters.

FF Grassroots are still mainly form the working class/middle class, small farmer background. There would be simply no way they would support FG as they are seen, and nothing they have done so far in government would change any FF supporters mind of the fact, as the party of the large farmer and the wealthier in this country.

With regard to a No vote on the treaty the party stance is causing some disquiet as a large number of party supporters would be in the No camp. The treaty is being seen as permanently signing away economic sovereignty to Europe, mainly to Germany and France who seem to have taken over the running of Europe, forgetting that it is a Union of equal members. The people who were unhappy at the Troika being brought in by FF, including myself, now cannot comprehend the rush to permanently sign away that sovereignty when FF were criticised for a temporary signing away of that sovereignty.

The Grassroots are where they have always been, the problem has been trying to keep the party in that place. The contempt shown by Ahern to the grassroots over the years was clear to everyone within the party, there was constant fighting within the Grassroots over it. The fight to get them back to where the Grassroots are is still going on, but as poll figures show many of the Grassroots have walked away and given up, and they can't be blamed for that.

golfball37

I was FF to the core until 2007 really. If they came back to their Republican roots I would certainly consider rejoining the party. I know a lot of lower down members like myself who agree with O'Cuiv on this.

HarryPotter41

golfball37 wrote: »

I was FF to the core until 2007 really. If they came back to their Republican roots I would certainly consider rejoining the party. I know a lot of lower down members like myself who agree with O'Cuiv on this.

You're right, many former members would come back but they think there is no real change in the party and the O'Cuiv issue is proving them right because they agree with him.

raymon

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

First of all to the best of my knowledge the Castlebar Cumann of FF is the only branch in Mayo that supported Flynn, every other branch voted either unanimously or overwhelmingly in support of the expulsion of Flynn and Ahern.

FF Grassroots still believe in the ideals of supporting business while also ensuring that the more needy in society are looked after where possible. Sadly the top moved away from this ideal for quite some time back and completely ignored warnings coming from their supporters.

FF Grassroots are still mainly form the working class/middle class, small farmer background. There would be simply no way they would support FG as they are seen, and nothing they have done so far in government would change any FF supporters mind of the fact, as the party of the large farmer and the wealthier in this country.

With regard to a No vote on the treaty the party stance is causing some disquiet as a large number of party supporters would be in the No camp. The treaty is being seen as permanently signing away economic sovereignty to Europe, mainly to Germany and France who seem to have taken over the running of Europe, forgetting that it is a Union of equal members. The people who were unhappy at the Troika being brought in by FF, including myself, now cannot comprehend the rush to permanently sign away that sovereignty when FF were criticised for a temporary signing away of that sovereignty.

The Grassroots are where they have always been, the problem has been trying to keep the party in that place. The contempt shown by Ahern to the grassroots over the years was clear to everyone within the party, there was constant fighting within the Grassroots over it. The fight to get them back to where the Grassroots are is still going on, but as poll figures show many of the Grassroots have walked away and given up, and they can't be blamed for that.

You make a few good points , however I must disagree on a couple of points.

You refer to the fact that FFs actions were but a temporary signing away of our sovereignty. I find the statement shocking. We are stuck with Anglo's debt forever. Remember this was supposed to be the cheapest bailout in history.

Also you never mentioned Brian Cowen , please explain how the grassroots gave him a standing ovation at the ard fheis. He was one of the top architects of our destruction as minister for finance and later as taoiseach.

Regarding the Flynnasty , surely if the grassroots wanted to they could put forward a motion looking for the return of the FF money used to buy the farm.

HarryPotter41

raymon wrote: »

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

First of all to the best of my knowledge the Castlebar Cumann of FF is the only branch in Mayo that supported Flynn, every other branch voted either unanimously or overwhelmingly in support of the expulsion of Flynn and Ahern.

FF Grassroots still believe in the ideals of supporting business while also ensuring that the more needy in society are looked after where possible. Sadly the top moved away from this ideal for quite some time back and completely ignored warnings coming from their supporters.

FF Grassroots are still mainly form the working class/middle class, small farmer background. There would be simply no way they would support FG as they are seen, and nothing they have done so far in government would change any FF supporters mind of the fact, as the party of the large farmer and the wealthier in this country.

With regard to a No vote on the treaty the party stance is causing some disquiet as a large number of party supporters would be in the No camp. The treaty is being seen as permanently signing away economic sovereignty to Europe, mainly to Germany and France who seem to have taken over the running of Europe, forgetting that it is a Union of equal members. The people who were unhappy at the Troika being brought in by FF, including myself, now cannot comprehend the rush to permanently sign away that sovereignty when FF were criticised for a temporary signing away of that sovereignty.

The Grassroots are where they have always been, the problem has been trying to keep the party in that place. The contempt shown by Ahern to the grassroots over the years was clear to everyone within the party, there was constant fighting within the Grassroots over it. The fight to get them back to where the Grassroots are is still going on, but as poll figures show many of the Grassroots have walked away and given up, and they can't be blamed for that.

You make a few good points , however I must disagree on a couple of points.

You refer to the fact that FFs actions were but a temporary signing away of our sovereignty. I find the statement shocking. We are stuck with Anglo's debt forever. Remember this was supposed to be the cheapest bailout in history.

Also you never mentioned Brian Cowen , please explain how the grassroots gave him a standing ovation at the ard fheis. He was one of the top architects of our destruction as minister for finance and later as taoiseach.

Regarding the Flynnasty , surely if the grassroots wanted to they could put forward a motion looking for the return of the FF money used to buy the farm.

Sovereignty with regard to being told what we can and cannot do with our budgets. Owing a debt is one thing, being told what we can and cannot do as regards our budget by Germany and France forever is another thing. That's what the treaty provides. The bail out gave us our economic say back after 2015.

With regard to Cowen, he got a standing ovation, probably ill advised, but within FF there is a certain amount of sympathy. As Minister for Finance he was under the boot of Ahern. FF was a dictatorship at the time. If you doubt that see what happened McCreevy when he stopped singing from the Bertie hymn sheet. When he became Taoiseach the cards had been dealt. He made some dreadful decisions and as a FF supporter I felt like I was watching a car crash in slow motion at times. The ovation was for his public service, be it disastrous or not ( for the record I was not in attendance ).

Any sort of motion by FF is pointless and toothless and would achieve nothing. Do you think Flynn would produce €50000 just because a FF Cumann passed a motion?

Seth Brundle

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

With regard to Cowen, he got a standing ovation, probably ill advised, but within FF there is a certain amount of sympathy. As Minister for Finance he was under the boot of Ahern. FF was a dictatorship at the time. If you doubt that see what happened McCreevy when he stopped singing from the Bertie hymn sheet. When he became Taoiseach the cards had been dealt. He made some dreadful decisions and as a FF supporter I felt like I was watching a car crash in slow motion at times. The ovation was for his public service, be it disastrous or not ( for the record I was not in attendance ).

Nonsense.
Cowen did not have to sign his name on anything. He is a smart man and if he disagreed with anything could have made a stand and taken the punishment or alternatively walked away based on his principles. The Irish people were never shown anything that looked like him taking a stand in favour of the people.
Also, the FF fans also had the choice to stand and applaud or to sit and boo. As for the standing ovation being "probably ill advised" - who advised them to give a standing ovation?
In terms of McCreevey, he didn't do too badly now, did he?

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

Any sort of motion by FF is pointless and toothless and would achieve nothing. Do you think Flynn would produce €50000 just because a FF Cumann passed a motion?

Looks like we will never know!
However, the money was for FF. Martin claims that he doesn't want the money as its tainted (just like the party). Why doesn't he look for the money and then return it to Gilmartin? This would give the perception that FF are starting to root out corruption and would make for a few nice soundbites. Seems strange that FF don't want to avail of the opportunity of some positive spin!

HarryPotter41

kbannon wrote: »

Nonsense.
Cowen did not have to sign his name on anything. He is a smart man and if he disagreed with anything could have made a stand and taken the punishment or alternatively walked away based on his principles. The Irish people were never shown anything that looked like him taking a stand in favour of the people.
Also, the FF fans also had the choice to stand and applaud or to sit and boo. As for the standing ovation being "probably ill advised" - who advised them to give a standing ovation?
In terms of McCreevey, he didn't do too badly now, did he?

Looks like we will never know!
However, the money was for FF. Martin claims that he doesn't want the money as its tainted (just like the party). Why doesn't he look for the money and then return it to Gilmartin? This would give the perception that FF are starting to root out corruption and would make for a few nice soundbites. Seems strange that FF don't want to avail of the opportunity of some positive spin!

"Ill advised" is a form of speech, as I am sure you are more than aware. The nature of people not walking away on principle in politics is enshrined in every political party in this and any other country, which is a sad reflection of political life. It is not limited to FF or Brian Cowen. It is also very easy to look at the current crisis in hindsight, much easier than it possibly was while stuck in the middle of the whole thing, particularly as it is not an Irish phenonomen but has affected most of Europe. I am sure there were decisions made that seemd like the right thing at the time but now can be seen to have been wrong.

With regard to McCreevy, he may not have done too bad, but everyone knows he didn't want to go and that the only reson he was made go was that he had questioned the spending by the government and wanted to rein it in.. Are you saying that would not have made a difference?? Or is your hatred for FF so irrational that no good could come from any decision made by a member?

What would looking for the money achieve now?? FF is damned if it does, damned if it doesn't. They would be criticised for trying to create positive spin. They were criticised for not doing something about the corrupt members of the party, when they satated they would expell tem they were criticised for doing so too late. I would personally rather that corruption actually be rooted out instead of "the perception that FF are starting to root out corruption" It would be pointless tilting at windmills because any decision on the money is Flynns and the party of which he is no longer a member certainly won't be able to influence that decision.

Wider Road

raymon wrote: »

Wider Road wrote: »

What party are close to your heart at this present time, Raymon?
We know what party's you dislike, any chance of your opinion on the rest for a change?

No party is " close to my heart " at present.

I have mixed views on the current government. Too early to judge.

Independents have been a dire disappointment , I was hoping for more.

SF are playing to capture the working class vote with blatant populism, and it is working.

But FF take the prize for worst performance .

You're saying that it's too early to judge the current government but not too early to judge the opposition!!

Mr.Micro

Wider Road wrote: »

You're saying that it's too early to judge the current government but not too early to judge the opposition!!

The Government is new. The opposition are still the same, at least the FF part, tried and tested, with a fail certificate.

raymon

Wider Road wrote: »

You're saying that it's too early to judge the current government but not too early to judge the opposition!!

FF have ruined the country , they have had enough time . Their attempt at opposition is just a continuation of same old faces , with nothing new to say.

raymon

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

It is also very easy to look at the current crisis in hindsight, much easier than it possibly was while stuck in the middle of the whole thing, particularly as it is not an Irish phenonomen but has affected most of Europe. I am sure there were decisions made that seemd like the right thing at the time but now can be seen to have been wrong

This is a complete rewrite of what happened.

Advice was given , and ignored.

Our bank bailout was not a European phenomenon.

HarryPotter41

raymon wrote: »

This is a complete rewrite of what happened.

Advice was given , and ignored.

Our bank bailout was not a European phenomenon.

My reference to a European phenomenon was the economic problems affecting countries with their economies collapsing, I made no reference to the bank bailout.

As far as the bank bailout goes, advice was given, two differing sets, one was chosen.

Wider Road

raymon wrote: »

Wider Road wrote: »

You're saying that it's too early to judge the current government but not too early to judge the opposition!!

FF have ruined the country , they have had enough time . Their attempt at opposition is just a continuation of same old faces , with nothing new to say.

Reading your post I am wondering why did you start this thread?

Wider Road

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Wider Road wrote: »

You're saying that it's too early to judge the current government but not too early to judge the opposition!!

The Government is new. The opposition are still the same, at least the FF part, tried and tested, with a fail certificate.

How are the opposition still the same, especially the FF part, when the Government is new?

raymon

Wider Road wrote: »

Reading your post I am wondering why did you start this thread?

I started the thread because I felt the whole renewal and regeneration of FF was not happening. I also felt that FF has no core values to speak of .

Sierra Oscar

raymon wrote: »

The link you provided does not answer my question.

Does anyone know what FF stands for , or Grassroots FF stands for?

I'm confused by the support for Cowen, Flynn, SF and No vote in the forthcoming referendum coming from within the FF party.

What exactly do you want to know?

The Coru of the party itself outlines the very basic aims of the party - but I assume that will not satisfy you either, considering you are just blatant anti-FF?

1. Fianna Fáil is a National Movement. Its aims are:-

(i) To secure in peace and agreement the unity of Ireland and its people.

(ii) To develop a distinctive national life in accordance with the diverse traditions and ideals of the Irish people as part of a broader European culture, and to restore and promote the Irish language as a living language of the people.

(iii) To guarantee religious and civil liberty, and equal rights, equal treatment and equal opportunities for all the people of Ireland.

(iv) To develop the resources and wealth of Ireland to their full potential, while making them subservient to the needs and welfare of all the people of Ireland, so as to provide the maximum sustainable employment, based on fostering a spirit of enterprise and self-reliance and on social partnership.

(v) To protect the natural environment and heritage of Ireland and to ensure a balance between town and country and between the regions, and to maintain as many families as practicable on the land.

(vi) To promote the family, and a wider sense of social responsibility, and to uphold the rule of law in the interest of the welfare and safety of the public.

(vii) To maintain the status of Ireland as a sovereign State, as a full member of the European Union and the United Nations, contributing to peace, disarmament and development on the basis of Ireland’s independent foreign policy tradition.

(viii) To reform the laws and institutions of State, to make them efficient, humane, caring and responsive to the needs of the citizen.

The Coru and accordingly the central aims of the party are in the middle of a consultative review at the moment at grass roots level, but again that will not satisfy you as you seemingly are set in your incorrect belief that there is no discussion occurring within the party. Furthermore a dedicated policy conference, akin to an Ard Fheis except solely dealing with party policy, will be occurring over the Summer with the aim of further allowing ordinary members an input into the creation of party policy following on from the Ard Fheis.

Do you think the entire grassroots has one core policy in regards everything - do you think Fianna Fáil are some sort of assimilated Borg when it comes to individual members opinions? Individual opinions differ from member to member - they come together in the organisation to put forward their ideas, debate and come to a consensus in regards the formulation of policy, as is the case in each other party.

What do Fine Gael, Labour and others exactly stand for?

raymon

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

What exactly do you want to know?

The Coru of the party itself outlines the very basic aims of the party - but I assume that will not satisfy you either, considering you are just blatant anti-FF?



The Coru and accordingly the central aims of the party are in the middle of a consultative review at the moment at grass roots level, but again that will not satisfy you as you seemingly are set in your incorrect belief that there is no discussion occurring within the party. Furthermore a dedicated policy conference, akin to an Ard Fheis except solely dealing with party policy, will be occurring over the Summer with the aim of further allowing ordinary members an input into the creation of party policy following on from the Ard Fheis.

Do you think the entire grassroots has one core policy in regards everything - do you think Fianna Fáil are some sort of assimilated Borg when it comes to individual members opinions? Individual opinions differ from member to member - they come together in the organisation to put forward their ideas, debate and come to a consensus in regards the formulation of policy, as is the case in each other party.

What do Fine Gael, Labour and others exactly stand for?

This is my point that these are just hollow words , I mean look at 4 and 7.

Fianna fail do not reflect these principles


(iv) To develop the resources and wealth of Ireland to their full potential, while making them subservient to the needs and welfare of all the people of Ireland, so as to provide the maximum sustainable employment, based on fostering a spirit of enterprise and self-reliance and on social partnership.


(vii) To maintain the status of Ireland as a sovereign State, as a full member of the European Union and the United Nations, contributing to peace, disarmament and development on the basis of Ireland’s independent foreign policy tradition.

So my question stands ...... what does FF stand for ?? Definitely not these .

Sierra Oscar

raymon wrote: »

. . .

Meh, whatever. That's your interpretation of things. You asked for some of the core aspects of the party and those are they.

_Kaiser_

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Meh, whatever. That's your interpretation of things. You asked for some of the core aspects of the party and those are they.

OK I'll take a stab at it then (for transparency, I've no loyalty to any party. I'll vote for whoever I believe will actually get the job done - not line their own pockets or who performs to what I like to call the "ah shure it'll be grand" approach that is so prevalent throughout any and all branches of Irish government and state generally). Perhaps you'll have a more "detailed" response than above?

You gave us the "core beliefs" of FF as they stand today. You also mention that these are under review so maybe now is in fact an ideal time for us to address some of these...


(i) The whole United Ireland/800 years angle needs to go. Never mind that we have enough problems of our own without trying to take on responsibility for another state, where's the evidence (from both sides of the border) that says this is what the people actually want?

The facts are that when Ireland was split in two, it was a reflection of how statecraft was conducted in those times - where occupation and conquering other nations was viewed as an acceptable means of expansion. That isn't to say it was "right" or diminishes the suffering and loss (on both sides to be fair), it's merely acknowledging that that's how it was back then.

We (as a race) have now evolved beyond this - at least those of us in the so-called developed world think we have, and the successful visit of the Queen, the ending of the Troubles, establishment of the Assembly and so on is proof that we have learned other ways to resolve our problems. Yes I know that sounds a bit clichéd, but my point is that FF need to move on from the past in this regard too.


(ii) The Irish language is technically dead and has been for many years, kept alive only through state subsidy (that we can now ill afford) and a Celtic Tiger era "fad" for the language that has now also died out.

I'm not saying kill it off, but it needs to be removed as a mandatory subject from our schools (as does the teaching of the Catholic religion in our increasingly secular/multi-faith country - in addition to the well documented reasons why that faith deserves NO official sponsorship after the damage it's done to countless lives).

Again, I'm not suggesting it should be banned or something but it belongs in the home (like the teaching of Irish). If you want your children to be raised as Irish speaking Catholics then by all means do so.. but do it yourself with support from your Church and your community (as a side note it wouldn't hurt many Irish parents to take a more active role in their children's education anyway) and replace both subjects with increased focus on literacy (for example), and European languages.

I spent a few years in Holland as a child and while the kids I started school with here were being forced to learn a language most of them can't string a sentence together in, my classmates in Amsterdam had fluency in Dutch, English and usually 2/3 other languages as well. No wonder then that the Google's and Microsoft's have to go abroad to get these skills while our own people sit on the shelf.


(iv) Shell to Sea (as but one example) anyone? How does this fit with the idea of "To develop the resources and wealth of Ireland to their full potential, while making them subservient to the needs and welfare of all the people of Ireland"


(v) I think this one is equally obvious - massive rezoning of land for over development / planning tribunals etc. Need I go on?


(vii) I think our "obligations" to Europe (as we're so often reminded were the doing of FF), and the resultant enforced austerity, the German parliament getting first look at OUR national Budget and so on prove "Irish Sovereignty" has long been sold off.


When FF can come back to the Irish People with a realistic, achievable plan as to how these objectives can be met, with defined targets and metrics for judging the success of same, and equally clear penalties or consequences for failure, THEN I think we can talk about the party having achieved a "Grass Roots" reform - I'd add to this a zero-tolerance policy on corruption, parish-pump governance and general gombeenism.

Until then it's just more spin and propaganda and we are getting more than enough of that from Enda and his merry men at the moment thanks very much.

Mr.Micro

Wider Road wrote: »

How are the opposition still the same, especially the FF part, when the Government is new?

Ah come on now, Martin, O'Dea, O'Cuiv, et al and a couple of new faces. Better still, perhaps than you may wish to enlighten me how FF are not the same? There is O'Cuiv going off at a tangent and then does not have the nerve to follow through, pathetic.

raymon

O Cuiv remained with the party , not because he agrees with the policies ,or core values but because he has nowhere else to go . Sums up FF in my opinion

Wider Road

raymon wrote: »

O Cuiv remained with the party , not because he agrees with the policies ,or core values but because he has nowhere else to go . Sums up FF in my opinion

Raymon, I know you're anti-FF but you were asked & declined to answer about what FG, Labour & the others stood for, why I wonder?
Also, you said earlier that you had mixed views on the current government, what are they? Do they contrast with what they stand for or is it something else?
Thanks in advance.

raymon

Wider Road wrote: »

Raymon, I know you're anti-FF but you were asked & declined to answer about what FG, Labour & the others stood for, why I wonder?
Also, you said earlier that you had mixed views on the current government, what are they? Do they contrast with what they stand for or is it something else?
Thanks in advance.

.


FG and Labour stand for one thing right now ...... getting us out of the mess .

That's the core value I will judge them on.

As I said before I have mixed views on their success.
For example property tax on properties dropping in value is not good economics.
However I feel that Noonan will get the Anglo debt sorted.
I also said it is too early to judge and I do believe we have had a narrow escape from the cliff ledge that FF put us on .

So let's get back on track here : on the subject of FF core values can anyone name one that FF have demonstrated. A real one this time.??

Seth Brundle

raymon wrote: »

So let's get back on track here : on the subject of FF core values can anyone name one that FF have demonstrated. A real one this time.??

To be really, really populist?

Sierra Oscar

raymon wrote: »

FG and Labour stand for one thing right now ...... getting us out of the mess

Get real raymon, that is a core aim of every party on this island ultimately.

In regards FF, I have traditionally seen the party as promoting equality of opportunity - which is evident through education and social policies down through the years. I have also viewed the party as the promoter of community spirit within Ireland, although this was massively damaged during the Celtic Tiger when everyone became so narrow-minded and inward looking. Just two basic things to start with.

Wider Road

raymon wrote: »

Wider Road wrote: »

Raymon, I know you're anti-FF but you were asked & declined to answer about what FG, Labour & the others stood for, why I wonder?
Also, you said earlier that you had mixed views on the current government, what are they? Do they contrast with what they stand for or is it something else?
Thanks in advance.

.


FG and Labour stand for one thing right now ...... getting us out of the mess .

That's the core value I will judge them on.

As I said before I have mixed views on their success.
For example property tax on properties dropping in value is not good economics.
However I feel that Noonan will get the Anglo debt sorted.
I also said it is too early to judge and I do believe we have had a narrow escape from the cliff ledge that FF put us on .

So let's get back on track here : on the subject of FF core values can anyone name one that FF have demonstrated. A real one this time.??

So in your opinion FG & Labour stand for getting us out of this mess.
I still don't know what you're mixed views are?
Please explain & what don't you agree on? Your views are mixed, aren't they?

How will Noonan get the Anglo debt sorted?

HarryPotter41

raymon wrote: »

.


FG and Labour stand for one thing right now ...... getting us out of the mess .

That's the core value I will judge them on.

As I said before I have mixed views on their success.
For example property tax on properties dropping in value is not good economics.
However I feel that Noonan will get the Anglo debt sorted.
I also said it is too early to judge and I do believe we have had a narrow escape from the cliff ledge that FF put us on .

So let's get back on track here : on the subject of FF core values can anyone name one that FF have demonstrated. A real one this time.??

As they are basically implementing a plan agreed by Fianna Fail, could it not be said that is the aim of FF as well?FF always wanted the less well off in society looked after, hence 4 times as many SNA's now as in 1997 despite the cutbacks

raymon

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

As they are basically implementing a plan agreed by Fianna Fail, could it not be said that is the aim of FF as well?FF always wanted the less well off in society looked after, hence 4 times as many SNA's now as in 1997 despite the cutbacks

FF bailed out Anglo Irish Bank . This was the most devastating event in our country's history.

Previous to that the economy was mismanaged to the point of ruin.

Let's not paint FF as a benevolent organisation. Let's not confuse populism with social conscience.

raymon

Wider Road wrote: »

So in your opinion FG & Labour stand for getting us out of this mess.
I still don't know what you're mixed views are?
Please explain & what don't you agree on? Your views are mixed, aren't they?

How will Noonan get the Anglo debt sorted?

Your FG and labour questions are off topic for this thread and I am not a supporter of either party in any case . If you start another thread about FG and Lab I might contribute.
I am still deciding whether they are doing a good job yet.

FF are the only party claiming to be reforming , regenerating, etc

And I don't know how Noonan will get the Anglo debt changed from a sovereign debt to a private debt. However reversing FFs " cheapest bailout in history " has to be accomplished.

So back on track then do you have any core value that FF can stand by and demonstrate successfully

hallelujajordan

This is a nonsense thread that offers very little to any political debate and it should have been locked by now. The OP is clearly not interested in understanding what FF core principles are as he has shown time and again in other debates. This thread is nothing more than another opportunity for the OP to go on a FF-bashing rant which is the reason I have resisted contributing. I don't mind party bashing when it's warranted but a thread with that as its sole purpose - c'mon mods ?

You asked what FF core principles were and you were pointed to them . . Clearly you do not agree as is your prerogative but its not exactly a surprise to those of us who have been debating with you on boards for some time now is it ? ?

And before you challenge, I wont engage in the topic of the debate because you have shown time and again that when it comes to FF you are well beyond any level of objectivity . .

And when you come up with arguments like . . "I feel that Noonan will get the Anglo debt sorted." followed by "I don't know how Noonan will get the Anglo debt changed from a sovereign debt to a private debt" how can we be expected to argue with that kind of genius logic ??

raymon

hallelujajordan wrote: »

This is a nonsense thread that offers very little to any political debate and it should have been locked by now. The OP is clearly not interested in understanding what FF core principles are as he has shown time and again in other debates. This thread is nothing more than another opportunity for the OP to go on a FF-bashing rant which is the reason I have resisted contributing. I don't mind party bashing when it's warranted but a thread with that as its sole purpose - c'mon mods ?

You asked what FF core principles were and you were pointed to them . . Clearly you do not agree as is your prerogative but its not exactly a surprise to those of us who have been debating with you on boards for some time now is it ? ?

And before you challenge, I wont engage in the topic of the debate because you have shown time and again that when it comes to FF you are well beyond any level of objectivity . .

And when you come up with arguments like . . "I feel that Noonan will get the Anglo debt sorted." followed by "I don't know how Noonan will get the Anglo debt changed from a sovereign debt to a private debt" how can we be expected to argue with that kind of genius logic ??

The thread for me has been very informative

The consensus with FF members is that the party stand for the following



1. Fianna Fáil is a National Movement. Its aims are:-


(i) To secure in peace and agreement the unity of Ireland and its people.


(ii) To develop a distinctive national life in accordance with the diverse traditions and ideals of the Irish people as part of a broader European culture, and to restore and promote the Irish language as a living language of the people.


(iii) To guarantee religious and civil liberty, and equal rights, equal treatment and equal opportunities for all the people of Ireland.


(iv) To develop the resources and wealth of Ireland to their full potential, while making them subservient to the needs and welfare of all the people of Ireland, so as to provide the maximum sustainable employment, based on fostering a spirit of enterprise and self-reliance and on social partnership.


(v) To protect the natural environment and heritage of Ireland and to ensure a balance between town and country and between the regions, and to maintain as many families as practicable on the land.


(vi) To promote the family, and a wider sense of social responsibility, and to uphold the rule of law in the interest of the welfare and safety of the public.


(vii) To maintain the status of Ireland as a sovereign State, as a full member of the European Union and the United Nations, contributing to peace, disarmament and development on the basis of Ireland’s independent foreign policy tradition.


(viii) To reform the laws and institutions of State, to make them efficient, humane, caring and responsive to the needs of the citizen.

I don't believe that any of these are valid in the FF of today.

Seth Brundle

raymon wrote: »

I don't believe that any of these are valid in the FF of today.

Were they ever really valid?

hallelujajordan

raymon wrote: »

The thread for me has been very informative

The consensus with FF members is that the party stand for the following



1. Fianna Fáil is a National Movement. Its aims are:-


(i) To secure in peace and agreement the unity of Ireland and its people.


(ii) To develop a distinctive national life in accordance with the diverse traditions and ideals of the Irish people as part of a broader European culture, and to restore and promote the Irish language as a living language of the people.


(iii) To guarantee religious and civil liberty, and equal rights, equal treatment and equal opportunities for all the people of Ireland.


(iv) To develop the resources and wealth of Ireland to their full potential, while making them subservient to the needs and welfare of all the people of Ireland, so as to provide the maximum sustainable employment, based on fostering a spirit of enterprise and self-reliance and on social partnership.


(v) To protect the natural environment and heritage of Ireland and to ensure a balance between town and country and between the regions, and to maintain as many families as practicable on the land.


(vi) To promote the family, and a wider sense of social responsibility, and to uphold the rule of law in the interest of the welfare and safety of the public.


(vii) To maintain the status of Ireland as a sovereign State, as a full member of the European Union and the United Nations, contributing to peace, disarmament and development on the basis of Ireland’s independent foreign policy tradition.


(viii) To reform the laws and institutions of State, to make them efficient, humane, caring and responsive to the needs of the citizen.

I don't believe that any of these are valid in the FF of today.

Like I said, you don't agree and that is your prerogative but you had made that conclusion before you started this thread !

Does your thread have any other purpose ?

raymon

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Like I said, you don't agree and that is your prerogative but you had made that conclusion before you started this thread !

Does your thread have any other purpose ?

The OP is clear , to debate the definition of the real values of grassroots FF .

I referred to three recent events that prompted the thread

1) Standing ovation for Cowen by the grassroots members
2) Support for the Flynnasty from the local grassroots
3) O Cuivs claims that he has the support of the grassroots

All three showed that the grassroots are not part of the renewal , regeneration, or whatever is supposed to be happening